Dragonblood Spell-Pact: What's the point of a spell list?

[Nettlekid]

I saw this spell while I was looking through Toptomcat's remarkably extensive Metaspells thread, and I was just...blown away. Am I misunderstanding something, or does this remove the restriction that any character has a set spell list based on their class? Looking at it, I see no distinction of class or even type of casting, arcane or divine! I could see Wizards and Archivists using it to great effect, making a scroll of the spell they're about to trade, getting a new spell out of the deal, and then re-learning the old spell. Of course you'll need plenty of XP mitigating tricks, but that's what Thought Bottles and Dweomerkeeper are for.

Since this spell can be imitated through Miracle, just about anyone can get their hands on it. And then you can take divine-only spells and make them arcane, or vice versa, give classes like Beguilers and Warmages spells they'd normally never have access to, at the expense of whatever spell they'd never cast on their own. How would this work with Clerics and Druids who know every spell on their list? Would a spell they trade just not be available anymore?

Anyway, I'm rather excited about this, because this takes what was already broken (spells) and brings it to a new level. What are the obvious abuses of this spell? What classes have always dreamed of getting a particular spell, and now can? (Basically take all the Recaster and Wyrm Wizard spell picks and lump 'em here, and also reverse them since now, Divine casters have a means of expanding their list too.)

[BowStreetRunner]

Sure, it is a Sorcerer spell, and both participants need to be dragonblood. But a good UMD check will allow you to cast it from a scroll. UMD should also allow you to emulate a race to qualify as dragonblood too.

[Wings of Peace]

If I'm not mistaken doesn't the spell essentially let you trade preparations? I thought I remembered some part of the description it can't be used to actually learn new spells.

[Nettlekid]

It says "trade known spells," and that "when a spell is traded, it is no longer in the repertoire of the trader." So it's really, give them the spell that you know, and you don't know it anymore, and get their spell.

Also it's Sorcerer only, so normally they don't have prepared spells anyway.

[Zanos]

This spell allows two willing dragonblood creatures to trade known spells.

A class would have to have a class feature called Spells Known for this to work, I believe.

[Nettlekid]

A class would have to have a class feature called Spells Known for this to work, I believe.

Ah, well, yes, no giving spells to the Fighter. But still. Giving Miracle to a Wizard. Or Celerity to like, a Druid or something. Maybe Wings of Cover to Druid? Druids could probably stand to have their spell list expanded, since most of it is blasty and could do with more utility.

Clerics could get the chance to DMM Persist a lot of nice Wizard spells. Or Incantatrices (is that the plural?) could Persist some of the Cleric standbys, like Divine Power. Or get some Wu Jen goodies like Body Outside Body and Giant Size (I'm a big fan of those.) I know it's possible to get those onto the list anyway so it's not entirely new, but it opens up a lot of possibility for new combos.

[Zanos]

Ah, well, yes, no giving spells to the Fighter. But still. Giving Miracle to a Wizard. Or Celerity to like, a Druid or something. Maybe Wings of Cover to Druid? Druids could probably stand to have their spell list expanded, since most of it is blasty and could do with more utility.

Clerics could get the chance to DMM Persist a lot of nice Wizard spells. Or Incantatrices (is that the plural?) could Persist some of the Cleric standbys, like Divine Power. Or get some Wu Jen goodies like Body Outside Body and Giant Size (I'm a big fan of those.) I know it's possible to get those onto the list anyway so it's not entirely new, but it opens up a lot of possibility for new combos.

Those classes do not actually have a class feature called Spells Known. Which is bizarre, but RAW. Book casters have Spellbook, and Druids and Clerics have just "Spells."

Curiously, if you're using Psionic Transperancy, this does give Sorcerers access to Powers, and Psionic classes with Powers Known access to the Arcane list. You could also cherrypick from anything with spells known, like a Favored Soul. So this does open up a lot of abuse, but not as much as it seems at first glance.

[Nettlekid]

Those classes do not actually have a class feature called Spells Known. Which is bizarre, but RAW. Book casters have Spellbook, and Druids and Clerics have just "Spells."

Curiously, if you're using Psionic Transperancy, this does give Sorcerers access to Powers, and Psionic classes with Powers Known access to the Arcane list. You could also cherrypick from anything with spells known, like a Favored Soul. So this does open up a lot of abuse, but not as much as it seems at first glance.

Well, it doesn't really say "Spells Known" or require that class feature. It remarks upon "known spells," and refers to a "repertoire," but nothing technical. When it says that a Wizard "learns" their spells, then those spells become known. You don't need RAW, that's just vocabulary. Basically, since there's no glossary definition of what it means to "Know" a spell, I think it's safe to say that access to and capability to cast a spell counts as knowing it.

[Toptomcat]

I saw this spell while I was looking through Toptomcat's remarkably extensive Metaspells thread...

Insert shameless plug here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295258)

Also, it should be noted that one big category of potential dudes for making a Dragonblood Spell-Pact with is, well, actual Dragons, who are often permitted to have Cleric spells as Sorcerer spells known in the first place without a whole lot of UMD scroll jazz or stretching the definition of 'spells known'.

[Zanos]

Well, it doesn't really say "Spells Known" or require that class feature. It remarks upon "known spells," and refers to a "repertoire," but nothing technical. When it says that a Wizard "learns" their spells, then those spells become known. You don't need RAW, that's just vocabulary. Basically, since there's no glossary definition of what it means to "Know" a spell, I think it's safe to say that access to and capability to cast a spell counts as knowing it.
I guess we'd have to check if there's a difference between Known Spells and Spells Known, because Spells Known is pretty much exclusive to spontaneous casters. I am not the most versed rule lawyer around, so I'll leave that to someone with more experience arguing RAW.

EDIT: That metaspell thing was awesome, by the way.

[Nettlekid]

Insert shameless plug here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295258)

Also, it should be noted that one big category of potential dudes for making a Dragonblood Spell-Pact with is, well, actual Dragons, who are often permitted to have Cleric spells as Sorcerer spells known in the first place without a whole lot of UMD scroll jazz or stretching the definition of 'spells known'.

That's true, and I've often thought of that when it comes to StP Erudites, but it still limits Wizards because Wizards can only transcribe Wizard spells, not any Arcane. They aren't Arcane Archivists, in that respect.

The more I think about it, I think this is more useful for Divine casters than Arcane, since Arcane has had means of getting other spell lists already (Wyrm Wizard, Recaster, etc.)