The very worst wizards can do

[Balor01]

Lvl 20 wizards, that is. All books. And I am not talking polymorphing a fighter into a toad and rip its legs off. I am talking groups of lvl 20 wizards going after each other as hard as possible.

Let's assume no gods and no Pun Pun.

What would be the consequences on a generic DnD world when lvl 9 spells are ripping the reality apart?

[Eldan]

How about Gatespam? You gate in a solar, order him to gate in two more solars, order them to gate in two more solars each ad infinitum.

Then, well, you said tearing reality apart. How about you then order each of your fifty billion solars to grab as much matter of hte planet under you as they can and throw it into the plane of fire? That's pretty thoroughly torn apart.

[Balor01]

Well, we assume they have a target. Like killing another wizard/group of wizards, not just {Scrubbed}

Gates are completely non-problematic. Solars are gated in, they fight, then pop back to plane of origin.

Amount of "fallout": zero.

[olentu]

Epic spellcasting can be acquired. As such there really is no limit to what could be done.

[captain fubar]

a world filled with casters with few or no restraints hmm sounds alot like the tippy verse a verry cool idea but It places high demands on the DM everything falls apart unless the DM is the best optomiser in the group has the highest level of system mastery and can both plan contermeasers for nearly anything and still improvise quickly.

teir 1 classes will tear up most campain worlds unless the players make an effort not to, or just don't realise the sort of stuff they can do.

[Balor01]

a world filled with casters with few or no restraints hmm sounds alot like the tippy verse a verry cool idea but It places high demands on the DM everything falls apart unless the DM is the best optomiser in the group has the highest level of system mastery and can both plan contermeasers for nearly anything and still improvise quickly.

teir 1 classes will tear up most campain worlds unless the players make an effort not to, or just don't realise the sort of stuff they can do.

Actually ... I think idea of Tippyverse is flawed because of a simple fact that caster will "do things because they can". Tippyverse is stable. IMO, instability is a staple of worlds with strong casters.

Also we are not talking campaigns here. I think strong casters would create realities far worse then Dark Sun.

Perhaps something like 1.000 Elizabeths from Bioshock:Infinite changing reality at the same time.

But I'd really like some input on this. How other people think generic DnD world would be reshaped by tier 1 casters with no restraints.

[Kurald Galain]

How about Gatespam? You gate in a solar, order him to gate in two more solars, order them to gate in two more solars each ad infinitum.

Is there actually a rule that states how many solars exist? :smallbiggrin:

[ahenobarbi]

No gods so no access to that template that gives immunity to divinations. So whoever gets access to Teleport through Time first will kill all rivals before they become a threat.

[Eldan]

That just creates the time war. Because chances are, at least one other wizard will copy the spell while you're back in time killing five thousand others and then you suddenly have thousands of time-teleporting super geniuses fragging each other Continuum style.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

In general high powered casters fighting each other will have relatively little effect on their environment. They're generally blowing spells to go first using area denial and doing much of the actual killing with single target spells.

It's feuds with nations and mundanes wearing anti magic torcs that get's really destructive with that spell that drops glaciers and rivers of lava transported under the effects of shrink item or things like wightocalypse and apocalypse from the sky.

Now if you deny free/cheap item creation via the means typically used in the tippyverse, but do allow BoVD and Dark Sun style means then you'll see some wide scale destruction for the sake of wizard duals.

[Bonzai]

The worst I've done? I had Conjurer that had all 10 levels of Master specialist and Circle Magic. It really doesn't matter which circle magic class you pick, but red wizard lends it's self to this fluff wise.

First: Cast simulacrum several times. Use your simulacra to empower your circle magic, and max out your caster level (40th max through circle magic, plus all your added caster level bumps through gear and master specialist).

10th level of Master Specialist lets you cast conjurations as a swift action 3 times per day.

So, now you get your combat round. Cast gate, then swift action activate boots of temporal acceleration. First bonus round, cast gate, then swift action gate. Second bonus round cast gate, then swift action gate. So on your first turn you have cast 5 gates, and can pretty much gate in nearly anything from the Epic level handbook. I like Xixcals. That's 5 CR36 monsters, and each one can summon 5 old white dragons. Not bad for one round of casting, and you still have a free swift action conjuration left. You can pull this off at 18th lvl.

All things considered there are a lot worse things a Wizard could do, but that is as bad as I have gone.

[Slipperychicken]

Is there actually a rule that states how many solars exist? :smallbiggrin:

Celestial planes where they're encountered are infinite, and there's a chance to encounter them in any part. There's a positive non-zero density of Solars across an infinite area, therefore there are infinite Solars. Infinity times anything is infinity.

However, gating Solars like that is going to draw serious aggro from the gods (Solars are basically the gods' most elite representatives and bodyguards, some even considered demigods themselves). Greater deities will mess you up; even with epic magic you need to think twice before taking on a god.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Ignoring the gate spam, summoning things through gate tends to mean your opponent will also summon something through gate. That earth shattering battle as an army of outsiders clashes with another as high level cabals of wizards fling spells to help their army win (and I am not talking about meteor swarm here...)

[Segev]

Through Illumian-Persist shenanigans, I played an epic Sorc who had two simulacra of himself that used the Tsochar spell from Lords of Madness that are immediate-cast Personal for 1 round to make them incorporeal all day, and have them overlap with the Sorc himself. There are other tricks one can use if one doesn't bother with that last step, but it created the illusion that this sorcerer was casting three spells per round, effortlessly. He also had an ally due to backstory that was a Formian Queen. She didn't come adventuring with him or anything...except that she let him make a Simulacrum of her, which was then polymorphed into a Small Brass Dragon. Since Formian Queens' caster levels are not related to their hit dice...

He was rather terrifying. And that's before he started abusing Master Staff and getting bored enough with encounters to drop Quickened Twinned and Twinned Spheres of Ultimate Annihilation on them.

Though my favorite trick, when he was actually worried about a 40th level practically-gestalt vampire caster we were facing, did cost him significantly: He had one of his simulacra teleport right behind her while another threw a Forcecage around them both (no save, solid wall version). With a Celerity, the Simulacrum in there with her dropped an anti-magic field.

The simulacrum dissolved into snow and ice, but was still the source of the AMF, while the Forcecage contained it. Losing all her enchantments increasing her strength and the like, and being unable to cast spells (she didn't have the one that let her cast in an AMF, thank goodness), the party quickly proceeded past her rather than bothering to deal further.

[ahenobarbi]

That just creates the time war. Because chances are, at least one other wizard will copy the spell while you're back in time killing five thousand others and then you suddenly have thousands of time-teleporting super geniuses fragging each other Continuum style.

Good point. Better don't go yourself but send assassin golems looking like ex-governor of California :smallcool:

[TuggyNE]

Is there actually a rule that states how many solars exist? :smallbiggrin:

Not as such, although the analysis earlier is pretty accurate, but keep in mind that solars don't prepare gate by default and have no SLA for it. Titans, though….

[angry_bear]

How does the gate spam work exactly? Summoning a specific creature to open another gate would count as an immediate task, which means once it's done; it can leave. So if you chose the wrong creature (Based on alignment/attitude), you're now looking at something you deemed capable of handling a level 20 wizard standing in front of you, with no reason for it to listen to what you say...

[Darth Stabber]

How does the gate spam work exactly? Summoning a specific creature to open another gate would count as an immediate task, which means once it's done; it can leave. So if you chose the wrong creature (Based on alignment/attitude), you're now looking at something you deemed capable of handling a level 20 wizard standing in front of you, with no reason for it to listen to what you say...

Depends on the wording of the immediate task you give the first solar. If you include some clause about gating in two solars to provide you with the work that would normally be due the summoner, then it can work.

[Spuddles]

Well, we assume they have a target. Like killing another wizard/group of wizards, not just "Fuc*ing sh*t up".

Gates are completely non-problematic. Solars are gated in, they fight, then pop back to plane of origin.

Amount of "fallout": zero.

Not when you mindrape them.

[Spuddles]

Celestial planes where they're encountered are infinite, and there's a chance to encounter them in any part. There's a positive non-zero density of Solars across an infinite area, therefore there are infinite Solars. Infinity times anything is infinity.

However, gating Solars like that is going to draw serious aggro from the gods (Solars are basically the gods' most elite representatives and bodyguards, some even considered demigods themselves). Greater deities will mess you up; even with epic magic you need to think twice before taking on a god.

Only if you assume densities of Solars are constant and local. Encountering solars could occur not in a classical sense, but your presence on a celestial plane causes the wavefunction to collapse and you bump into a solar. This way, your chances of meeting solars remains constant, regardless of solar density.

[Sith_Happens]

Only if you assume densities of Solars are constant and local. Encountering solars could occur not in a classical sense, but your presence on a celestial plane causes the wavefunction to collapse and you bump into a solar. This way, your chances of meeting solars remains constant, regardless of solar density.

Okay, someone needs to start developing the Quantum Theory of Random Encounters right now.

[Flickerdart]

Only if you assume densities of Solars are constant and local. Encountering solars could occur not in a classical sense, but your presence on a celestial plane causes the wavefunction to collapse and you bump into a solar. This way, your chances of meeting solars remains constant, regardless of solar density.
But then you still have an infinite source of Solars, as long as there's anyone at all on Celestia.

[Drake2009]

One level 20 wizard sneaks up on another. Disjunction him and then make him immovable. He then uses debuffs to make his wiz and will terrible. Programmed amnesia him to make him your slave. You then send him out to do the same until they all work for you.

[Flickerdart]

One level 20 wizard sneaks up on another.
Lol. If you don't have Foresight, Dire Tortoise, Contingencies, and handy dandy lead cones, you're not even fit to call yourself a level 20 wizard.

[faircoin]

Only if you assume densities of Solars are constant and local. Encountering solars could occur not in a classical sense, but your presence on a celestial plane causes the wavefunction to collapse and you bump into a solar. This way, your chances of meeting solars remains constant, regardless of solar density.

Wavefunction collapse is a "classical sense". It does not happen in quantum operator evolution.

[Drake2009]

Lol. If you don't have Foresight, Dire Tortoise, Contingencies, and handy dandy lead cones, you're not even fit to call yourself a level 20 wizard.

True but im level twenty. I have fly, greater invisibility and so many non detection items if they were to be dropped on somebody it would kill them.
Plus i already have a band of barbarians and fighters programmed that are causing a distraction by fighting him. I just need to sneak up and get the right spell in.

[Flickerdart]

True but im level twenty. I have fly, greater invisibility and so many non detection items if they were to be dropped on somebody it would kill them.
Plus i already have a band of barbarians and fighters programmed that are causing a distraction by fighting him. I just need to sneak up and get the right spell in.
At level 20, if you seriously think Fly and Greater Invisibility to anything, you're not ready for the big leagues.

[Rubik]

Depends on the wording of the immediate task you give the first solar. If you include some clause about gating in two solars to provide you with the work that would normally be due the summoner, then it can work.Mine would be to Dominate, followed by telling it to agree to, "serve me faithfully for eternity" as part of the binding.

Note that this doesn't preclude serving after my body's demise.

[Slipperychicken]

Mine would be to Dominate, followed by telling it to agree to, "serve me faithfully for eternity" as part of the binding.

Note that this doesn't preclude serving after my body's demise.

Yeah, that's totally not going to get his god to crack down on you...

[Humble Master]

Set up a contingency so that when you reach the very beginning to creation Time Stop is cast. Use Teleport Through Time to get there. While Time Stoped, put the universe (which is very small at this point assuming the Big Bang Theory holds true) in a Bag of Holding. When Time Stop stops the universe will expand inside the bag and, in nanoseconds, rupture the bag causing:

If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever.

[Rubik]

Yeah, that's totally not going to get his god to crack down on you...Have you SEEN WotC's stats for deities? Optimized 20th level wizards have nothing to fear from them, even without epic spellcasting.

[Slipperychicken]

Have you SEEN WotC's stats for deities? Optimized 20th level wizards have nothing to fear from them, even without epic spellcasting.

I'm mostly thinking that if they don't kill the wizard quickly enough (i.e. 17 weeks before you cast Gate. Technically, they could use their future-sight to send messages any distance through time to themselves), they would call in a favor from someone who has the death domain.

[Spuddles]

But then you still have an infinite source of Solars, as long as there's anyone at all on Celestia.

Or there is simply a positive, non-zero number of solars. In order to achieve infinite solars, you would have to adventure for infinity, which is rather trivial. Any such function, when evaluated from one to infinity, will converge on infinity.


Wavefunction collapse is a "classical sense". It does not happen in quantum operator evolution.

Classical mechanics has an importance of location. I'm talking spooky action at a distance that occurs probabilistically only during observation. That's sort of the antithesis to how aristotle or newton viewed the world.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I am talking groups of lvl 20 wizards going after each other as hard as possible.

The two wizards who are having a disagreement meet (typically buffered by some layer of Simulacrum/Astral Projection/Ice Assassin/&c.) at a neutral ground (Sigil or similar) and compare their contingencies over a cup of tea. The wizard with superior contingencies wins the argument. With that issue decided they retire to whatever else they were doing.

[Scow2]

True but im level twenty. I have fly, greater invisibility and so many non detection items if they were to be dropped on somebody it would kill them.
Plus i already have a band of barbarians and fighters programmed that are causing a distraction by fighting him. I just need to sneak up and get the right spell in.And this right here is the impossible part.

[Drake2009]

And this right here is the impossible part.
Disjunction while hes in combat. All his awesome back ups are gone now and everything else. If its as hard as you think then ill make them all try and grapple him. Eventually he is going down then i just need to get rid of all his magic and hes mostly useless. Maybe even just make a AMF and have them take him down.

[Arundel]

Disjunction while hes in combat. All his awesome back ups are gone now and everything else. If its as hard as you think then ill make them all try and grapple him. Eventually he is going down then i just need to get rid of all his magic and hes mostly useless. Maybe even just make a AMF and have them take him down.

You never get there. Ever.

At level 20, a wizard contingency teleports away from an encounter that he has not personally set up every detail of said encounter. There are defenses for disjunction (check out the second level sorcerer spell Wings of Cover). To quote the master of overoptimization:


By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

He cannot be surprised. He cannot be stopped. He cannot be contained. At best you may render him amused before he erases the stench of your mundane weakness from the planes and mindrapes every memory of your pitiful existence from your loved ones.

[ShadowFireLance]

Disjunction while hes in combat. All his awesome back ups are gone now and everything else. If its as hard as you think then ill make them all try and grapple him. Eventually he is going down then i just need to get rid of all his magic and hes mostly useless. Maybe even just make a AMF and have them take him down.

Yeah, Suprise, Wizard has a Contigincy readied for it, casting the same on you. Oh, Wait, Contigincy #2 Activates, Time Stop. Delayed Blast Fireball x3. Good luck surviving.

Where's Tippy?

[Rubik]

Yeah, Suprise, Wizard has a Contigincy readied for it, casting the same on you. Oh, Wait, Contigincy #2 Activates, Time Stop. Delayed Blast Fireball x3. Good luck surviving.You do realize that was A.) his clone, B.) his simulacrum, C.) his Astral Projection, D.) someone else Polymorphed into him, E.) an ice assassin, F.) an illusion, G.) a hallucination, or H.) none of the above, right? By the time a nicely optimized wizard gets Planar Binding, he's never going to be walking around without Astral Projection on. That, and he'll have so many permanent immunities and contingencies for his contingencies for his contingencies that unless you manage to squeeze between and avoid them ALL, he's going to either crush you or get away.

It's not exactly hard to become immune to death from hp damage. In fact, it's fairly easy. The same goes with death effects, and even divine salient abilities. Or literally anything else.


Where's Tippy?Haven't seen him around lately.

[Drake2009]

Time stop! Disjunction, dimensional lock, bestow curse, Binding. Then programmed amnesia. Then have all the barbarians are grapling him and i make him my slave.

[Rubik]

Time stop! Disjunction, dimensional lock, bestow curse, Binding. Then programmed amnesia. Then have all the barbarians are grapling him and i make him my slave.Who are you responding to, exactly? I don't see how any of those help with any of the things I listed. Or are you talking to SFL?

[Drake2009]

Who are you responding to, exactly? I don't see how any of those help with any of the things I listed. Or are you talking to SFL?

SFL didnt see you yet.
Also yes that all makes sense. But i have been busy also. My own spell takes an image of a person teleports said person straight to an AMF where my friends are waiting to grapple him. We knock him out and take him out of the AMF. We take all his stuff and debuff him to heck. He also has no more dex so he cant even move. I then proceed to programmed amnesia and enslave him.

Edit: Also astral projection doesnt let you project yourself on the same plane if im reading correctly.

[Segev]

I don't know what you guys are reacting to. My sorcerer has his simulacra watching through a Mirror of Mental Prowess just to make sure you all behave.

[tyckspoon]

Time stop! Disjunction, dimensional lock, bestow curse, Binding. Then programmed amnesia. Then have all the barbarians are grapling him and i make him my slave.

Can't cast those spells out of a Time Stop; you can't use anything that directly targets another character or has an Instant duration.

[Drake2009]

Can't cast those spells out of a Time Stop; you can't use anything that directly targets another character or has an Instant duration.

correction Transmute rock to mud underneath him AMF, Dimensional lock outside of AMF,

[Crasical]

A level 20 optimized wizard can never defeat another level 20 optimized wizard, because of infinitely nested contingencies, counterstrategies, escape plans and plots.


A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

[faircoin]

Classical mechanics has an importance of location. I'm talking spooky action at a distance that occurs probabilistically only during observation. That's sort of the antithesis to how aristotle or newton viewed the world.

Technically, classical mechanics != Newtonian mechanics. Classical mechanics in its most modern form is Noetherian. You can get the translation generator, momentum, from the plane wave solution to Schrodinger's equation. Hence, it's modeled in classical mechanics.

edit

I have a question for the optimizers on this site. Is there any way for me to permanently give myself the effects of Sarrukh's manipulate form ability in a useful manner (i.e., I can use it on myself), using non-epic spells (no items), barring ice assassin and simulacrum?

[Spuddles]

Technically, classical mechanics != Newtonian mechanics. Classical mechanics in its most modern form is Noetherian. You can get the translation generator, momentum, from the plane wave solution to Schrodinger's equation. Hence, it's modeled in classical mechanics.

edit

I have a question for the optimizers on this site. Is there any way for me to permanently give myself the effects of Sarrukh's manipulate form ability in a useful manner (i.e., I can use it on myself), using non-epic spells, barring ice assassin and simulacrum?

Gate a Sarrukh and ask it to give you manipulate form ability minus the line that says you cant use it on yourself.

Also, cut me some slack on the physics. I got a bio degree.

[faircoin]

Gate a Sarrukh and ask it to give you manipulate form ability minus the line that says you cant use it on yourself.

Do we know Sarrukhs can give nonexistent abilities besides categorical "truth" from omission?

[tyckspoon]

I have a question for the optimizers on this site. Is there any way for me to permanently give myself the effects of Sarrukh's manipulate form ability in a useful manner (i.e., I can use it on myself), using non-epic spells (no items), barring ice assassin and simulacrum?

If you assume you are restricted to only granting abilities that already exist, I don't know if there's a way to get it in such a way that you can directly target yourself.. but there are a lot of very readily accessible workarounds.

One basic method would be to have a minion get Manipulate Form and then have them use it on you - have a Mindraped Kobold or a viper familiar or some other kind of creature that is unquestionably loyal to you do the work (this is also required for stat-boosting via Manipulate Form, since you can't just remove the restriction on how high you can raise a stat you have to bounce stat increases back and forth between you and your minion.)

The other fairly simple approach would be to create another creature with whatever powers you wanted using Manipulate Form and then hijack it via Magic Jar/Astral Seed/True Mind Switch/Fusion/a ghost's Malevolence ability/pick your favorite possessing spell, power, or monster ability.

[Turion]

Gate a Sarrukh and ask it to give you manipulate form ability minus the line that says you cant use it on yourself.

Also, cut me some slack on the physics. I got a bio degree.

Having a familiar or animal companion (snake?) that qualifies as a Scaled One of Toril works too, if I'm remembering correctly, and bypasses the question of whether Manipulate Form can grant nonexistent abilities. AFB, though, so I might be misremembering.

[Endarire]

The very best or worst a Wizard can do, is, literally, everything. With a permissive GM, wish can do anything. It may be expensive, impractical, or uncool, but it is still anything!

We've been missing out on the wish spam. Not that it helps any side get a definite victory.

[faircoin]

One basic method would be to have a minion get Manipulate Form and then have them use it on you - have a Mindraped Kobold or a viper familiar or some other kind of creature that is unquestionably loyal to you do the work (this is also required for stat-boosting via Manipulate Form, since you can't just remove the restriction on how high you can raise a stat you have to bounce stat increases back and forth between you and your minion.)

Dang, this might be the first time I've ever considered viper familiars useful.

[tyckspoon]

The very best or worst a Wizard can do, is, literally, everything. With a permissive GM, wish can do anything. It may be expensive, impractical, or uncool, but it is still anything!

We've been missing out on the wish spam. Not that it helps any side get a definite victory.

I suspect trying to use Wish in this method will do far more damage via twisted/backfiring Wishes than anything the Wizards could deliberately do with their other spells short of purposefully causing a Wightpocalypse or developing an apocalyptic Epic spell.

[Spuddles]

Dang, this might be the first time I've ever considered viper familiars useful.

The first pun pun used a viper familiar.

[Eldan]

Not when you mindrape them.

That has the problem that you need to have an exponential and potentially infinite number of Mindrapes prepared.

[ahenobarbi]

That has the problem that you need to have an exponential and potentially infinite number of Mindrapes prepared.

Wish for a trap that:
* Mindrapes n solars
* Wishes for m more copies of it self
* Resets
set n and m to match your needs (Wizard 20 should have enough int for that).

[Balor01]

So, generally, no fallout? Even with all the OP crap Wizards can dispense?

[Perseus]

The two wizards who are having a disagreement meet (typically buffered by some layer of Simulacrum/Astral Projection/Ice Assassin/&c.) at a neutral ground (Sigil or similar) and compare their contingencies over a cup of tea. The wizard with superior contingencies wins the argument. With that issue decided they retire to whatever else they were doing.

That is how I figured it would always go down.

Plus the Wizard should have a class feature at level 20 "World's Most Interesting Man". (love the meme)

"I always have a contingency for my contingencies but for when I don't, I have a backup plan. Stay paranoid my friends."

Actually isn't there some sort of rule for wizard battles that don't actually harm each other or something silly like that? Maybe it is in pathfinder? Like 2 mages enter a protective field and see who's arcane prowess is higher by casting spells at each other that won't actually hurt them?

[faircoin]

How do wizards mitigate XP loss from spellcasting and crafting without thought bottle?

edit


When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

AH CRAP. There goes the "gate in a Solar for its wish SLA" trick. Or mirror mephit for simulacrum. Or efreeti for wish.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

So, generally, no fallout? Even with all the OP crap Wizards can dispense?

Basically ya. The kind of stuff lower level casters do might occaisionally cause fallout, like creating barrels of black lotus could damage the local ecosystem.

Rending the fabric of space and time, magic itself, etc. just doesn't happen pure DM fiat/homebrew if you want the pure magic released by nested contingencies, time stop, disjunction etc. to have a negative effect.

You could make all wizards suboptimal enough to make mcguffins like controlled Tarrasques and asteroid strikes matter.

Wizards could acknowledge each others indestructability and attack other wizards indirectly destroying their holdings and places they acquire tings from, of course this depends on them not having all their loved ones in their pocket dimension and farming spell components from major creation spelltraps.

@ faircoin

good thing Gate is Calling, not Summoning.

Calling
A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.

[ahenobarbi]

AH CRAP. There goes the "gate in a Solar for its wish SLA" trick. Or mirror mephit for simulacrum. Or efreeti for wish.

Gate is fine. It's not "Creation or Calling", not "Summoning".

[Karnith]

AH CRAP. There goes the "gate in a Solar for its wish SLA" trick. Or mirror mephit for simulacrum. Or efreeti for wish.
As others have already said, Gate isn't subject to that limitation because it's a Calling effect, not a Summoning effect. But if you're trying to get free simulacra or wishes, you'd probably be better off just using the Planar Binding spells, which are also Calling effects but are available much earlier.

Unless you can get a Candle of Invocation or something, of course.

[faircoin]

Oh, right. Thanks for saving me from possibly never using a trick I would never be allowed to use anyways.

I am indebted forever to you guys.

edit

Not sarcasm. I am grateful you called me out on RAW. :smallsmile: I feel like my intentions could be misread.

[Bonzai]

Solar's aside, another fun thing to do with Wizards is get free meta magic. I had a necromancer build that could at least get four spell levels free pre-epic. Being able to Fell drain and fell animate everything for kicks was just a start.

Then you take a spell like Avasculate. Half of your targets HP go POOF! So fire off a chain avasculate along with a quickened chain avasculate. If your opponent had 1,000 hp, it now has 63. No saves against that portion of it, and he may fall over in a stiff breeze. He actually may be dead if you gave him negative levels from fell drain. So with one round of casting the HP of a subject becomes meaningless.

[Segev]

So, generally, no fallout? Even with all the OP crap Wizards can dispense?

"The Time War raged, invisible to lesser beings but devastating to higher forms!"

[Flickerdart]

So, generally, no fallout? Even with all the OP crap Wizards can dispense?
Spells are precise. Aside from all the creatures co-opted into such an endeavour (mostly solars and powerful dragons) it is likely that such a war would affect literally no other person aside from its target. Collateral damage is also unlikely, since the fighting will most likely happen in wizards' private sanctums located at least on the bottom of the ocean or something (RAW Astral Projection doesn't do anything unless your body stays on the Material Plane, so you can't take it into a demiplane, but it's not really that hard to hide it somewhere that's impossible to find).

[Drake2009]

"The Time War raged, invisible to lesser beings but devastating to higher forms!"

And in the end there was only one survivor... his name was
The Doctor!

[Vaz]

A Wu Jen take Arcane Disciple (Luck) and gains Miracle on its Spell List. It takes a 2 levels in Archmage and 3 levels in Incantatrix for Persist fun.

The Wu Jen then casts Body Outside Body, so it has 4 clones (higher, with Caster Level boosts).

Each of those clones then have 2 Wishes and 2 Miracles, and each spell can be persisted through the Metamagic Effect ability (regardless of whether or not the spell was initially capable of being Persisted). Any 1 of these 4 can use Body Outside Body to get more Clones, which are then Persisted.

As the clones take the XP cost for Wish, essentially every single spell in the game of 9th level or lower gets Persisted on the caster.

Once you have every spell in existence cast on you, you start to cast multiple "Heroics" (or Heroism? Where you get Fighter Bonus Feats). You then Dark Chaos Shuffle them out. So you have every feat in existence (nearly).

On the other hand, as you're a Wu Jen, you can go through the whole Planar Binding an entire level earlier, you're just limited to Ghosts or Silverwraith creatures (Incorporeal is an eligible target for Spirit Binding). So you can just break the game that way.