Unarmed Swordsage review

[ramrod]

Hi guys,


I have been researching and creating an unarmed Swordsage for the last few days for an upcoming campaign and thought that I would open it up to review and constructive criticism (or hell, some praise? :smalltongue: )

Please have a look and discuss. Just to introduce though, please read the conditions that the DM allowed/set.

Starting level 5, 9000gp wealth.
30 point buy, +1 stat for level 4

Unarmed monk progression, including improve unarmed feat, flurry of blows, damage progression and AC bonus stacks with Swordsage.

2 flaws allowed.

Adaptive style is a free feat and refreshes all maneuvers, not just one.

I think that is all, please comment, improve, correct etc!!


http://plothook.net/RPG/profiler/view.php?id=12574

[Biotroll]

Seems fine, except:
How are you getting Superior Unarmed Strike? It's prereq is bab +3, that you don't have as Swordsage at 3rd lvl.
Why Travel Devotion? It sure is nice, but without turns to fuel it, it seems a bit lackluster. Also, couldn't you just use shadowhand maneuvers for the same effect? (And you do have Anklet of Translocation too. It is a bit of overkill for me to have all three things at once.)
Also remember that Shadowblade gives you dex to damage on top of str, so you might want to get your str up a bit as it holds you back right now.
*grumble*gnomes*grumble*

So, that's it.

[Gigas Breaker]

Your wisdom doesn't need to be super high. Put a little bit of that in strength.

[ramrod]

Thanks for advice so far, he is 5th level not 3rd though.

Travel devotion was my feat up for the chop, but not sure what to replace it with...

Due to double stacking ac bonuses, wisdom provides 2 ac, which is nice. I don't care too much for strength, but I will have a play around and see if the points stack up.

So... Good feats for this style of play? I intend to be sneak attacking a lot of the time, so anything that boosts that, or increases odds of denying dex to ac would be good.

[Rebel7284]

So wait, your DM is giving your Swordsage AC bonus out of armor AND in addition the Monk bonus? O.o

Unusual ruling.

You are heavy into teleport, look into getting Sun School at level 6 for free attacks.

[ramrod]

It's not too unusual. I'm happy either way, I don't think I would have gone unarmed without it tbh.

Sun school does look good for the teleport, shame I can't hold off picking my feat until next level, but I can pick it in future feat selections. However, improved natural attack increases the damage dice I use by one size, which is probably more useful in that respect?

Anything else?

[Gigas Breaker]

The thing is shadow blade doesn't replace str to damage with dex to damage. It adds both. You need to figure in -2 to your damage from str.

[OverdrivePrime]

How are you getting Superior Unarmed Strike? It's prereq is bab +3, that you don't have as Swordsage at 3rd lvl.


Thanks for advice so far, he is 5th level not 3rd though.

It doesn't matter what his level is now. When he was 3rd level and selecting a feat, he only had a BAB of +2 and therefore didn't qualify for Superior Unarmed Strike. Pick that up at 6th level.

[ramrod]

Being allowed access to monk feats, would combat expertise be worthwhile?

[Dawnmor]

Im in the same boat as you Ramrod. What feats to pick, which feats give me best advantage early on. What feats will fit with the concept I have in mind.

I suggest you take out Weapon Finese and Travel devotion and replace them with Combat expertise and Improved Trip. Wait you cant do improved trip line as your int is 10 and not 13 as required.

Hmmmm, Also I think Imp trip may be useful. But im in the same boat as I said before so im not sure how useful ill be here.

[Snowbluff]

I would not take improved trip unless I actually had some setting sun tripping maneuvers.

[ramrod]

Trips etc usually require strength and I am focused on dex and wis, no room for str. I might try and get it to neutral by dropping con though

[Snowbluff]

Trips etc usually require strength and I am focused on dex and wis, no room for str. I might try and get it to neutral by dropping con though
Even if you don't have the str, the bonus from the maneuver and imp trip should cover it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Am I reading this wrong? You list having Shadow Blade, Travel Devotion, and Superior unarmed strike as selected feats, but you can only have 2 at 5th level as a gnome w/o flaws. I would drop superior, since you won't have the BaB for it at 3rd (and drop Travel Devotion: he can do better then that. Consider the combat form feat chain. You have the Wis for it and if you get three the feats become quite good).

[ramrod]

He does have 2 flaws

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay, I just missed them sorry. Then I really recommend Combat Focus/Stability (at 6)/ and later on Combat Vigor (at 12). They are not amazing, but +4 to Will saves, +8 to a pile of things you get a penalty on because you are small, and fast healing 4 for 13 rounds is pretty nice.

[Stegyre]

I'll focus my comments on the maneuvers and stances selected:

Stances
Child of Shadows: This (imho) is always good, and you've maxed Tumble to avoid AoOs during that initial 10'. Great!

Assassin Stance: A contextually popular stance for characters that already have other sources of precision damage (or someone who needs precision damage to qualify for a feat or PrC), but this character doesn't. Another 2d6 isn't bad, particularly at 5th level. It just doesn't strike me as optimal.

Giant Killing Style: Without investing another feat, I do not see how you can qualify for two 3rd level stances when you've just gained 5th level.

This has already been pointed out, above, but when building a higher-level character, you must do so level by level. You cannot simply choose all of your feats, maneuvers, etc., as if you have always been a 5th level character. This is an error that pervades your feat and maneuver selections, so you'll need to redo them, sorry. But live and learn! :smallsmile:

Based on your current build plan, this character may have the following levels of stances and maneuvers:

2*1st level Stances (CoS and something else, gained at 1st and 2nd levels)
1*3rd level Stance (obtained at 5th level)

6*1st level Maneuvers (gained at 1st and 2nd levels, the table gives you seven, but see the next entry)
3*2nd level Maneuvers (gained at 3rd and 4th levels; also at 4th level, one of your 7 original 1st level maneuvers may be traded for a new maneuver; of course you do this)
1*3rd level Maneuver (gained at 5th level).

Maneuvers
Flashing Sun Strike: 2nd level DW; I think this is suboptimal for one of only 3 2nd level maneuvers you may have: it requires a Full Round Action and gives you a benefit (an extra attack) that may be obtained with a 1st level maneuver (Wolf Fang) requiring only a standard action. For a character with less than 6+ BAB, I think Wolf Fang is better in every respect.

Shadow Jaunt: 2nd level SH, and well worth it.

Cloak of Deception: 2nd level SH, and also well worth it. (If you do decide to keep Assassin's Stance, this maneuver will consistently allow you to utilize the benefit.)

Soaring Raptor Strike: 3rd level TC, and requires a Jump check to beat AC from a character that is NOT optimized for jumping. Lose this one fast; you have no good use for it, imo.

Devastating Throw: 3rd level SS; you only get ONE 3rd level stance; replace this with the 1st level Mighty Throw.

Fan Flames: 3rd level DW, fire damage ranged touch attack; maybe, but I would still want something better for your lone 3rd level maneuver.

Insightful Strike: 3rd level DM; I love this one, personally, but it belongs on a Concentration optimized character; your concentration is alright (10 total mod), but I think it would be much better used on Mind Over Body, to neutralize your weak Fort. save.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade: 1st level DM, okay, and synergizes with Assassin Stance.

Shadow Blade: 1st level SH, and good.

Fire Riposte: 2nd level DW, meh, but you do have room for another 2nd, and it's better than FSS, above.

[mangosta71]

Flurry doesn't play well with strikes without houserules. I would suggest focusing on boosts and counters with your maneuver selection. Any strikes you do pick up need to either have a big enough damage boost, apply a status effect, or have some sort of utility (such as ignoring DR) to compensate. If you're allowed to take Improved Trip as an ACF at level 2, the Setting Sun school is very good because the bonus applies to all of the throws and forcing position changes is an excellent method of battlefield control. If you also get monk unarmed movement speed and the campaign lasts to level 17+, Tornado Throw can be a beautiful thing.

[ramrod]

Thanks, that list was cool. I hadn't finalised the list of stances and maneuvers yet, it was originally just a wish list of ones that I liked :) will go back over them and have another look.

Raptor strike I kinda like, I had originally hoped to go for boots of striding etc to get the +10 jump modifier :smallsmile:

[ramrod]

Trip doesn't work very well for me being small and having very low strength :smallannoyed:

[Stegyre]

Trip doesn't work very well for me being small and having very low strength :smallannoyed:
The Mighty Throw maneuver allows you to use Dex rather than Str. However, I do not think it fixes your size modifier.

If you are going small creature and like jumping, I'd recommend a winged kobold (+10 jump). That's my personal favorite for those jumping TC maneuvers, especially once he gets the 3rd level TC stance that adds another +10 and treats all jumps as running.

[Karnith]

The Mighty Throw maneuver allows you to use Dex rather than Str. However, I do not think it fixes your size modifier.
Do the trip maneuvers let you trip larger creatures than normal? I'm not seeing anything that allows it, but I could have missed something. If not, he won't be able to trip anything Large or larger, which is a lot of monsters.

[Stegyre]

It's just like a normal trip attempt, the main differences being a +4 on your check, the ability to use Dex or Str, and you do not trigger an AoO.

That said, I don't see in tripping an outright prohibition against tripping anything two sizes or more larger than you. It is only practically prohibitive due to the +4 per size difference the defender gets.

FWIW, another good first-level maneuver from the same school is Counter Charge, to nullify charge attacks. There are also the other two first- and second-level use-your-Concentration-in-place-of-your-save DM maneuvers, but this character's Ref and Will are high enough that they wouldn't make much difference.

[Karnith]

That said, I don't see in tripping an outright prohibition against tripping anything two sizes or more larger than you. It is only practically prohibitive due to the +4 per size difference the defender gets.
Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip):

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
(Emphasis mine)

It's one of the reasons that tripping becomes increasingly bad as you reach higher levels, unless you have some way get a lot bigger.

[ramrod]

Trip wotc are almost def out of the equation. I have gone for a throw maneuver though, that one allows me to use dex, totalling +9 bonus, which is handy. :smallcool:

[phlidwsn]

FYI, for figuring out what level maneuvers you can have at level X without building it level by level, take a look at the chart I threw together here. (Hmm, I don't have that on Docs anymore, I'll grab it at lunch and post it for you.) It assumes you're trading out from your lowest level manuever to grab a new highest, so this is the max you can have short of using feats to grab extras.

[phlidwsn]

Better late than never: TOB Max Maneuvers known per level (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ai-Wl_R7C_7CdFl0ckNNTXlGb2lET1JJM1ZGMXRyY0E&usp=sharing)

[cerin616]

If your swordsage levels count as monk levels i wouldnt waste time on
SuS anyway. at max level you just waste a feat (monks dont have unarmed progression over level 20)