New to stealthing

[ramrod]

Hi guys,

I'm a reasonably experienced player, but have never played a very stealthy character. Now is the time, I have an unarmed swordsage level 5 that has a pretty high hide bonus at 22 and move silently 17 (whisper gnome :) ).

Most of my attacks will be aiming for sneak attack, or at least catching opponents flat footed.

How do I achieve this though? How does the mechanic work? What other options do i have.. I can turn g.invis for one round as well, but any tips and explanations greatly appreciated!

I just don't want to miss any opportunities :)

[ZamielVanWeber]

Improved Initiative is great, as you are flat footed until you take an action. Going first means that you have sneak attack easily. Going for monstrous hide and move silently will help you get a surprise round for MORE yummy sneak attacks. Boots of Elvenkind will help early on for extra boost to move silently (your hide should be massive since it essentially start at +9 before skill points).

Flanking also activates sneak attack, so make sure you have tumble for added mobility.

[ramrod]

Yup, maxed out that tumble :) how do you figure starting within+9? I only have it figured as +8 for being whisper gnome?

[Norin]

Some useful guides:

Scouting (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9959)
Stealthy chars (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10996)
Rouge handbook fore more stealth and sneak attacking info (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156350)
All about sneak attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a)

Hope that helped! :smallsmile:

[Diarmuid]

Flanking is generally the easiest way to activate Sneak Attack. All it requires is a buddy willing to help you pin the opponent between the two of you.

Hiding can certainly help, but due to the restrictions on Sneak Attack, you'd need to either be within 30' of your target (for ranged sneak attack) or be right next to them (not always easy due to terrain/etc with mundane hiding) to get your additional dice.

As was mentioned, going first is another good way to deny your opponent their dex without needing to hide/flank, but again you need to be within 30' or melee depending on your weapon of choice. With that in mind, some way to gain extra move actions, or to move as a swift action can get you into position to be able to deliver those Sneak Attacks while your opponent is still flat-footed.

You should make sure you familiarize yourself with the Hide rules. There are a lot of little things that people dont always rememeber that can foul up someone trying to sneak up on a target. Moving full speed rather than half speed imposes penalties. Moving from/between places of cover imposes certain penalties. Hiding in general requires certain conditions to be met.

[geekintheground]

im sure you know, but im gonna point it out: pick up the distracting ember maneuver. it helps a lot

[ZamielVanWeber]

Yup, maxed out that tumble :) how do you figure starting within+9? I only have it figured as +8 for being whisper gnome?

+1 more for the +2 Dex they get.

[Rebel7284]

Blurstriking weapons will give you sneak attack for free 1/day
Expensive early on as I recall.

Edit: or adding Blurstriking to whichever item allows you to add weapon enchants to your fists!

I like dipping invisible fist monk 2 for MORE invisibility, Flurry of blows, and most importantly, Sun School!

[ramrod]

Duh... Dex bonus ofc lol

[ZamielVanWeber]

I always add that in, yea. Didn't mean to confuse you.

[Urpriest]

Stealthwise, here are the basic rules for using Hide. (Incidentally, if I get any of this wrong Curmudgeon is likely to come by to correct me, this is one of his favorite subjects).

In order to Hide, you must
1. Have Cover or Concealment.
2. Not be observed.

1 is pretty simple: if you have cover or concealment from your enemy, you can make Hide checks. If not, you can't. 2 isn't as clear. The best explanation that I have found is that if someone has already made a successful Spot check against you in this encounter, you cannot Hide.

Both of these requirements have ways to avoid them. In particular, different classes and races have different versions of Hide in Plain Sight, which gets rid of requirement 2 and occasionally also requirement 1. Even without Hide in Plain Sight you can use a Bluff check to make a distraction to Hide, or run between cover while Hiding, those rules are contained in the PHB and Rules Compendium respectively.

If you meet those conditions, you need to make a Hide check. Hide checks are part of other actions. In particular, you can make a Hide check as part of moving, attacking, running, or charging. You can also make a Hide check as a special move action after making a ranged attack. Note that both Hiding while attacking and Hiding as a move action after making a ranged attack suffer a -20 penalty, this is because the rules were written by two people who had different ideas about how severe a -20 penalty is.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you can get total cover for all forms of sights between you and the target, you can hide from them again after being seen, as they cannot observe you.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I do believe the greater invisible maneuver can let you jump between covers and hide without penalty. Greater Invisibility for a turn is all kinds of useful aside from just letting you flat foot someone and hit them for sneak attack.

[lsfreak]

Stealthwise, here are the basic rules for using Hide. (Incidentally, if I get any of this wrong Curmudgeon is likely to come by to correct me, this is one of his favorite subjects).

In order to Hide, you must
1. Have Cover or Concealment.
2. Not be observed.

1 is pretty simple: if you have cover or concealment from your enemy, you can make Hide checks. If not, you can't. 2 isn't as clear. The best explanation that I have found is that if someone has already made a successful Spot check against you in this encounter, you cannot Hide.

Personally, I would rule that having total concealment or cover is generally going to be enough to hide, unless you're "trapped." That's when things get messy - if you hide behind a lone tree, you're not being observed but it's going to obvious to everyone where you are. But you can still Hide, which is enough to use the Moving Between Cover option in Complete Adventurer (though anyone who saw you hide behind the first tree would likely get a bonus on their Spot check to see you do it), and would be good for the previously-mentioned "hide behind tree, invisibility, appear elsewhere," or hiding and then teleporting to a different spot. If you just "hid" behind the tree and then popped out from behind the same tree the next round, though, I'd be inclined to have them auto-Spot you, unless you have HiPS (though in that case, you may not have needed to go behind the tree in the first place).

Note the rules under Bluff as a standard action to create enough distraction for you to hide while being observed. It's going to be a poor use of actions in combat, generally, but might save you if you need to escape back to the party or something.

EDIT: As the next post brought up, I forgot about the line in Hide that says total cover negates hiding, which makes some of what I say problematic. Standing halfway behind a tree allows you to Hide and then Move between Cover, but standing all the way behind a tree does not :smallconfused:

[BowStreetRunner]

If you can get total cover for all forms of sights between you and the target, you can hide from them again after being seen, as they cannot observe you.
Total cover makes a hide check unnecessary. However, there is a common mistake people make with regard to total cover. Line of effect is measured as a line from any corner of a square occupied by one creature to any corner of a square occupied by another creature. So if I put both creatures into the same 100 foot square room and put one creature standing next to a ten foot wide wall in the middle of the room and the other creature standing anywhere on the opposite side of the wall, the first creature will never be able to achieve total cover. There will always be at least one corner that the other creature can draw a line to. This makes hiding behind trees and other things problematic too. You have to have all of the corners of your figure hidden from view.

[ramrod]

So is 100 percent concealment required to hide? Not just 20 percent that I can get from stances?

[Urpriest]

So is 100 percent concealment required to hide? Not just 20 percent that I can get from stances?

100 percent concealment means you don't need to Hide at all, you can't be seen. 20 percent is what you need to Hide.

[lsfreak]

So is 100 percent concealment required to hide? Not just 20 percent that I can get from stances?

20% is enough, provided you're "not being observed." What exactly that means is up to your DM to interpret. If your goal is to actually use Hide in combat to trigger sneak attack, you might look into getting Hide in Plain Sight. But between flanking, your invisibility maneuver, a friendly spellcaster with greater invisibility, etc, you might find yourself well-set without it.

[ramrod]

Yeah, I think I have a fair few ways of getting flat foot/sa :smallsmile:

I assume hide in plain sight would be a complete pain in the rear to get?

[Urpriest]

Yeah, I think I have a fair few ways of getting flat foot/sa :smallsmile:

I assume hide in plain sight would be a complete pain in the rear to get?

Yes and no. You can get a weak version of it (requires concealment, but still lets you hide while being observed) as the LA +1 Dark template, which can also be obtained via a magic item. (There's also a version of the same template from a Forgotten Realms adventure that was published later and doesn't have that limitation). Beyond that, lots of levels of Assassin or one level of Shadowdancer (lots of pre-req feats) are the primary ways. I think there's also an Incarnum class that gives it, Umbral Disciple or the like.

[Segev]

Hm. If total cover/concealment lets you make a hide check no matter what, you might talk to your fighter about buying a Tower Shield. Offer to help him pay for it, so long as he lets you duck behind him (and it) periodically. Make sure your move actions that include a hide check carry you behind the tower shield, granting you total concealment for the nonce, and you'll be able to hide again.

[Urpriest]

Hm. If total cover/concealment lets you make a hide check no matter what, you might talk to your fighter about buying a Tower Shield. Offer to help him pay for it, so long as he lets you duck behind him (and it) periodically. Make sure your move actions that include a hide check carry you behind the tower shield, granting you total concealment for the nonce, and you'll be able to hide again.

Only the wielder of a Tower Shield can use it to get total cover unfortunately.

[Segev]

That is unfortunate. Hrm.