Kill it with Fire, Love it Forever, Screw with your Party: A Monster thread [3.5/PF]

[Tanuki Tales]

If you get the reference, which isn't that obscure, then a cookie for you.

The whole point of this thread is to think of all the monsters ever published thus far for Dungeons and Dragons two third editions and for Pathfinder and pick one that fits each of the following categories in your opinion:

Best Monster: This is basically the monster that you think was the best created. It doesn't matter if you're choosing it because it's mechanically a well oiled machine, because its fluff is superb or because you just think it's the bee's knees.
Worst Monster: Other side of the coin from above.
I Love It: This is the monster that you like throwing at your party, that you've always wanted to throw at your party, that you love fighting as a player, that you've always wanted to fight as a player or you just love it in general.
I Hate It: Other side of the coin from above.


I'll start us off with my own choices, which are mostly gleaned from memory and off the top of my head:

Best Monster: I give this one to the Inevitables. I just find their very concept intriguing and love them as opposed to the kind of "saw that one coming" Formians. They got even better, to me, in Pathfinder and when you mesh the two systems together you've got a lot of fun options to use for varying party levels. The fact they also exist as an in-game answer to the consequences of some PC shennanigans is just gravy.
Worst Monster: I'll say the Tarrasque in 3.5. I almost gave this to the bog standard Hydra, but that thing is not as much of a let down. They set it up as this big, bad, campaign devouring medieval Godzilla, but it ends up being ridiculously simple to beat with low level characters. At least the Pathfinder version covered some of its more glaring holes.
I Love It: This is a toss up between the Hellfire Wyrm and the Fiendwurm. Both are monsters that I've always wanted to just see in play, no matter which side of the screen I was on. I have this strange love for the Monster Manual II, even though it's one of the most unbalanced books printed. On a personal level, I just love Slaadi. Those chaos toads always have had a special place in my heart, but unfortunately they never got much love outside of Planescape, especially with them ending up being one of the few things WoTC didn't put in the OGL.
I Hate It: Vampires (the European iteration) probably are the monsters I say I hate. In 3.5 their LA is obnoxious and in both versions their weaknesses are played to the hilt, even though that's not how the mythos and fiction necessarily portray them on average. Players tend to want to be them (and no, not because of Twilight; I've never actually known a person who likes that in my groups) and as an archetypal baddie (looking at you, Strahd) I want to use them more flexibly.

[TroubleBrewing]

Best Monster: Illithids. Especially after their expansion in LoM, the spellcasting brain eating space octopi are easily the most horrifying and challenging thing I've ever thrown at any party. Seriously, their fluff implies they escaped from the apocalyptic future to come back here and fix whatever caused the end of the universe. Evil, parasitic tentacled horrors with good motivation? Perfect.

Worst Monster: Angels. While Demons and Devils all have great fluff, varied designs, and pull inspiration from multiple cultures, all we get for Angels is big winged dudes with swords. Or non-winged dogs with swords. Or motes of light, no sword. Such a missed opportunity.

I love it: Dragons. I've never had the opportunity to throw one at a party, because I'm of the mind that a Dragon should be the end-all-be-all of psychotically difficult encounters. I've never had a party that I honestly thought would survive an encounter with a prepared Dragon in its lair.

I hate it: Oozes. They're never as challenging as they should be. Frankly, any solo-or-small-group monster that can't think or reason isn't as challenging as it should be. Swarms of undead or constructs presents its own challenges, but a big fleshy blob is easily outwitted or avoided.

[BWR]

Best Monster: Illithids. Lords of Madness just rehashed and watered down "The Illithiad", which was where I first grew to love them. An entire race of super-intelligent Cthulhoid monsters: what's not to like?

Worst monster: The tojinanda. Just look at the picture in the 3.5 MM. Barely edging out the drooling fanged penis monster of Fiend Folio (3rd edition). Mechnically, the mountain giant from mm2. Supposedly a CR 26 beast, but a group of 10th level characters should have no problem taking it down. I can only assume whoever designed it mistyped the CR and quality control didn't catch it.

Love it: Illithids. I've never sent them at my players. Closest I came was the Malafides, illithid rip-offs from Cordell's Hyperconscious. They were the big bads in a DragonStar campaign I ran, and they were plenty nasty.

Hate it: ummm, can't really think of any. I suppose any monster that has TPKed us or nearly done so because the DM looks at the CR and not at what the monster can do and sends overpowered monsters at us. Bone naga and

[gurgleflep]

Best monster: A monster race known as the Yaggol. They're in the Dragonlance Bestiary of Krynn (Revised) and they're jungle-dwelling, psionic (albeit not much of that), brain eating barbarians - what else could I ask for in a creature?! Oh yeah - a racial progression :smallbiggrin:

Worst monster: Kobolds - I like the look of them, that they often are lackeys for dragons and they're great for leveling up low level parties but other than that they're pretty pointless.

I love it: Drow. Anything and everything drow. Scorrow, drider, drow, half-drow, brood (orc/drow hybrid from a third party book), etc. The only thing I don't like is the Lolth based religion - it needs improving.

I hate it: Animals and dinosaurs - they're missing some of my favorites in both categories. Komodo dragon, spinosaurus, pterodactyl, those chicken sized dinosaurs from Jurassic park that I don't remember the name of, alligator (I could use crocodile, but it feels so wrong!), deer, etc.

Edit: It would appear I'm not the only one with a love of mind flayers! :smallbiggrin:

[Tanuki Tales]

spinosaurus, pterodactyl, :

The Spinosaurus and Quetzalcoatlus got statted in the Monster Manual II.

[gurgleflep]

The Spinosaurus and Quetzalcoatlus got statted in the Monster Manual II.

Why wasn't I informed?! :smallfrown: And I stand by what I said, there aren't enough dinosaurs/animals - or anthro-velociraptors for that matter.

[BWR]

Best monster: A monster race known as the Yaggol. They're in the Dragonlance Bestiary of Krynn (Revised) and they're jungle-dwelling, psionic (albeit not much of that), brain eating barbarians - what else could I ask for in a creature?! Oh yeah - a racial progression :smallbiggrin

Do we count that as another Best Monster vote for the Illithids? Even if it is the retard branch of the family.

[gurgleflep]

Do we count that as another Best Monster vote for the Illithids? Even if it is the retard branch of the family.

I'd count it towards it, yes - it's a subrace or something similar. Their "elite" are smart but they're exceedingly rare.

[Kalmageddon]

Best: either Illithid or Aboleth, I like Lovecraftian monsters and these two are just awesome, they have a similar background, one comes from the future, the other from the beginning of time before deities and both are atheistic creatures with a totally alien mindset. I also love the desigh of both creatures.

Worst: One of the many uninspired and random monsters that no-one ever uses. If I have to pick one it would probably be that beetle-rhinoceros hibrid from monster manual 2, I think it's also psionic. Totally random and uninspired.

Love it: I also like Inevitables and monsters that can stalk the PCs for a specific reason, giving them clear motivations and complexity, those monsters that can make the party feel that sense of impending doom because they are both strong and will also never stop coming. I would put in this category that Predator-like monster from Monster Manual 3 and the Pale Stranger from Pathfinder, being stalked by an undead bounty hunter gunslinger makes for some epic moments.:smallbiggrin:

Hate it: Incorporeal monsters, expecially undeads. If the party doesn't have a caster they become a real bore to fight even with magical weapons and they often have ability/level drains that are not really dangerous in combat but will annoy the characters even after the fight is over.
Plus they are all very similar, either they are the "transparent distorted person" kind, like a ghost, or the "dark shade/smoke creature" kind like the wraith.

[unseenmage]

Best Monster: Dragons. Just, dragons. All the might of an arcane caster strapped to the back of a massive pile o' death from above. What's not to like? Oh, and they're masterminds and nearly immortal. So much fun they're half the name.

Worst Monster: Lycanthropes. They're a mess of confusion and ineffective to boot. Too bad too, I suspect they could've been awesome.

I Love It: Constructs. Golems less so, but loyal minions immune to Diplomancy and unaligned are always good. And soooo versatile.

I Hate It: Deathless. Why, just why. And they're so underwhelming.

[3WhiteFox3]

Best Monster: Elementals. The idea of a monster being a threat not because of it's inherent evil, but rather the fact that it's a force of nature in and of itself has always intrigued me,

Worst Monster: Angels. Don't get me wrong, I think that the concept of angels as fantastic creatures is solid, sadly that massive potential was never really exploited. For the most part they are all fairly generic and lifeless.

I love it:Aboleth. I love the idea of these guys, they are Lovecraftian horrors who are extremely intelligent, cunning and resourceful. I've never run them because I want to milk all of the possible horror of going into murky water and being ambushed by a predator who has every possible advantage against you.

I hate it: Drow. They have been overused and I simply feel that they have become far too widespread in use and aren't very interesting simply because the evil that they represent isn't as shocking anymore. They aren't anything but evil, and they have nothing that really separates them from other sadistic, self-destructive races.

[Tvtyrant]

Best Monster: Beholders, hands down. They are awesome mechanically (free action rays, giant anti-magic field cones, flying) and fluff wise (the children of an Elder Evil who are impossibly racist and xenophobic.)

Worst Monster: Ogre Mages. Their tiny, tiny hit points and high damage (9d6 cone of cold) make it impossible for them to work right. Either they are a murderous ambush machine for a low level party that one shots most or all of the party, or it hits an appropriate level party with its one attack and then bites the dust.

I Love It: Aboleths. Ancient creatures that remember their entire lineage? Yes please. "We will have it back Man-child. We will have it all back."

I Hate It: I would have to give this to Golems. They cost way too much for their usefulness, and the inclusion of SR: No spells takes the heart out of their gimmick.

[Manly Man]

Best Monster: Illithids, again. Pretty much all the reasons why have been said, but also, I think it's fun to explore the behaviors of those gone rogue. Hell, even redeeming them outright would be cool; I once made a mind flayer Paladin, and he managed to be a slimy, squirmy, slightly squishy beacon of goodness. On the other hand, and more often as well, I've made villains scary enough to literally give the players nightmares. One guy told me about how he kept waking up at night, feeling like there was an octopus on the back of his neck.

Ah, what fond memories...

Worst Monster: In a similar light to what others have been saying, I'd actually rule that most celestials on the whole are rather poorly done. I will admit that I have a great fondness for the eladrin (azatas in Pathfinder), but apart from that, they're just so... meh. They really should have made a series of books for them, like how they did the Fiendish Codices, of which they should have included one for the yugoloths. A shame that they aren't producing 3.5 material anymore.

I love it: Demons (obyriths especially; I did a high-level adventure that involved Pale Night stealing what people thought was a piece of the Rod of Seven Parts, but was in fact the Wand of Orcus) and dragons are tied for me in this one. They're both so versatile in the many ways that they can be applied, depending on the campaign. I once helped design a setting where NotChina was ruled by an emperor whose strings were being pulled by a glabrezu, who in turn was working for a marilith. Another thing I did was that a tribal group of jungle-dwelling humans had grown to worship a red great wyrm as their goddess, the one who made the mountain spill its hot blood that burned and then fed the earth. The adventuring party ended up finding her, and almost fought her, but when she managed to explain to them that, without her, the hundreds of people she ruled over would end up dying, because there were other very powerful, less sensible creatures out and about, and they only thing stopping the beasts from destroying everything was herself. They ended up just leaving and feeling horribly confused.

I hate it: Elves on the whole, really. Honestly, I think that they're overplayed, and their whole nature-loving aspect has been worn far too thin. I'd love to have a campaign where elves had personalities more like the ones made by Pterry, where they're more Fair Folk than fruitcake.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Best Monster-Vampires are a favorite of mine.The deadliest thing in D&D is usually a Player character so what could be more deadly than a PC turned into undead abomination that by its very nature will only avoid death by deceiving or dominating everything around it?Vampires are a great thinking man/DMs villain and can open up great and convoluted plots

Worst Monster-I hate the Tarrasque.It was nothing but a 1st ed gotcha monster designed around mechanics more than having a reason to exist.It specifically as a hide that counters the couple damage spells players always used and had a bite that mimicked the also mechanically bad but player crippling sword of sharpness.You then strap in a win condition that apparently resists all power in the universe despite being completely mundane all on a big dumb lizard that wants to eat things

I love it-Devils.The entire design of Lawful Evil Devils makes them excellent villains over a campaign and the hierarchy ensures you constantly have something to logically move up to when it comes to challenging PCs.They can also play the Dr.Doom style super-villain you love to hate so much better than anything else in D&D IMHO

I hate it-I cant narrow it down but anything that was designed as a "Gotcha" monster and meant to mechanically counter what PCs tend to do.Golems stand out because they are a classic mythological concept but unfortunately somebody decided they have a random immunity to magic for no reason.Rust Monsters existed just to ruin gear.Demi-Liches existed as part of Tomb of Horrors and were only killable with spells nobody ever used.That sort of thing

[Doorhandle]

Best monster: Golems. Magic resistance levels the playing field/forces full casters to get creative, they can be crammed just about anywhere, cool special abilities, and they have some awesomely gonzo monsters like the fossil golem or the cannon golem.

Honourable mention to dragons, particularly the non-classic ones/lindworms/non-true dragons and to daemons, my favourite of the pathfinder Outsiders.

Worst monster: All those random underwater races that never appear in a game and aren't very interesting. Kind of odd.

I love it: The Tane. Awesome fluff, brilliantly weird monsters. Shame about their high C.R. Honourable mention to the astradmeon, because it's looks like a monstrous deep-sea predator form beyond the stars.

I hate it: I was really disappointed that Meladaemons of famine do not, in fact, eat people.

:smallannoyed:

[geonova]

best monster: most fey. also illithids, aboleths, elementals and inevitables

worst monster: pretty much every mid-level outsider

love it: thri-kreen, rust monsters and dragons. thri-kreen are just awesome, rust monsters allow me to laugh at my heavily armored party members, especially paladins, and dragons...they're DRAGONS!!!

hate it: same as the worst monsters, as well as any undead creature

[Tanuki Tales]

Best Monster-Vampires are a favorite of mine.The deadliest thing in D&D is usually a Player character so what could be more deadly than a PC turned into undead abomination that by its very nature will only avoid death by deceiving or dominating everything around it?Vampires are a great thinking man/DMs villain and can open up great and convoluted plots

What exactly is threatening about a PC Vampire? In 3.5 they're ridiculously crippled no matter what because of that +8 LA and in Pathfinder they're still kind of hosed by all the Vampiric weaknesses.

Jiang-shi are at least mechanically better and less punishing to players.


Worst Monster-I hate the Tarrasque.It was nothing but a 1st ed gotcha monster designed around mechanics more than having a reason to exist.It specifically as a hide that counters the couple damage spells players always used and had a bite that mimicked the also mechanically bad but player crippling sword of sharpness.You then strap in a win condition that apparently resists all power in the universe despite being completely mundane all on a big dumb lizard that wants to eat things

You do understand it was ridiculously easy to kite and kill in 3rd edition, correct? As soon as you can control an Allip and have a way to teleport it a few fathoms down in the nearest ocean, that's game. I think some of the kill methods for him cost as little as 3.7 thousand gold.


Golems stand out because they are a classic mythological concept but unfortunately somebody decided they have a random immunity to magic for no reason.

You do understand it only applies to spells that allow Spell Resistance, correct? Most of the good spells in the game laugh at golems.

[Hyde]

Best Monster: Dread Wraith. Completely ineffective with even a modicum of preparation, but the completely silent, phase through walls nature of the thing means it could potentially take out an unaware party before they even realize initiative has been rolled (so to speak). Even if they're not actually a threat to the party, it's pretty easy to get the players to think one is.
Worst Monster: Vampires. Clunky and weird makes for a hard time when a player goes all Twilight and wants to play one. Same for Unicorns (bad joke).
I Love It: Boneyard, Neothelid, Fiendworm. I love serpenty (or wormy) creatures with weird powers, and these guys top the bill. I don't think I've actually used any, though.
I Hate It: The Fey. I actually love the fey, but it's really annoying when everyone's interation with the fey extends to Tinkerbell. It's hard to get from "happy shiny forest spirits" to "weird and potentially dangerous forest spirits".

[TrollCapAmerica]

What exactly is threatening about a PC Vampire? In 3.5 they're ridiculously crippled no matter what because of that +8 LA and in Pathfinder they're still kind of hosed by all the Vampiric weaknesses.

Jiang-shi are at least mechanically better and less punishing to players.



You do understand it was ridiculously easy to kite and kill in 3rd edition, correct? As soon as you can control an Allip and have a way to teleport it a few fathoms down in the nearest ocean, that's game. I think some of the kill methods for him cost as little as 3.7 thousand gold.



You do understand it only applies to spells that allow Spell Resistance, correct? Most of the good spells in the game laugh at golems.

1] You ever play Castle Ravenloft back in the day?Vampires are a great and classic creature and to be honest I couldnt give two craps and a stroke what LA they got in the MM because when I use a Vampire in a game I care more about it being the kind of villain I need for the story

2] It being stupid in 3rd ed is actually more proof of how dumb a monster it is.My problem extends back to when I first saw it in 1st edition which is where every single complaint I mention comes from.Its a giant stupid lizard with plot armor

3] You do understand im talking about its origins right?You do understand my complaints stem from 1st ed taking something cool and mythological and turning it a gotcha monster.You do understand I wish it was more than that and in 3rd edition doesnt still carry a hitn of that even if its largely irrelevant.You do understand I dont take kindly to being talked to like I dont get the game I have been playing over a quarter century right?

[Tanuki Tales]

1] You ever play Castle Ravenloft back in the day?Vampires are a great and classic creature and to be honest I couldnt give two craps and a stroke what LA they got in the MM because when I use a Vampire in a game I care more about it being the kind of villain I need for the story

I never said a whit about them as NPCs in reference to your post and I know very well who Strahd Von Zarovich is. You said the following: "The deadliest thing in D&D is usually a Player character so what could be more deadly than a PC turned into undead abomination", which isn't true in the least bit.


2] It being stupid in 3rd ed is actually more proof of how dumb a monster it is.My problem extends back to when I first saw it in 1st edition which is where every single complaint I mention comes from.Its a giant stupid lizard with plot armor

This is a thread about Dungeons and Dragons 3.0 and 3.5 editions and Pathfinder, not 1st edition.


3] You do understand im talking about its origins right?You do understand my complaints stem from 1st ed taking something cool and mythological and turning it a gotcha monster.

See above.


You do understand I wish it was more than that and in 3rd edition doesnt still carry a hitn of that even if its largely irrelevant.

I have no clue what you're saying here.


You do understand I dont take kindly to being talked to like I dont get the game I have been playing over a quarter century right?

I think you need to calm down sir. I also fail to see what the length of time you claim to have played the game line has to do with anything that I've said.

[Deadtissue]

Best Monster Devils - Paragons of Lawful, Supernatural, Unwavering Evil. Each one is an interesting and well built foe for any party.

Worst Monster Ogre Mage, I always expect so much from them and they always come up short.

Most Loved Stirges, I have had more player deaths result from these little guys than any other, they are always underestimated until its too late. Knowing this the few times I have encountered them as a player they scare the bejesus out of me:)

Most Hated Oozes and Jellies, easy to kill if you know that one specific thing that kills them but mix them up and they are a royal pain.

[Urpriest]

I never said a whit about them as NPCs in reference to your post and I know very well who Strahd Von Zarovich is. You said the following: "The deadliest thing in D&D is usually a Player character so what could be more deadly than a PC turned into undead abomination", which isn't true in the least bit.


He's talking about former PCs turned into Vampire NPCs. That or he's using the term PC when he means NPC.

[Tanuki Tales]

He's talking about former PCs turned into Vampire NPCs. That or he's using the term PC when he means NPC.

Ah. That's an entirely different kettle of fish then. I didn't glean that from my reading.

[TrollCapAmerica]

He's talking about former PCs turned into Vampire NPCs. That or he's using the term PC when he means NPC.

The later

A Vampire is human with class levels with an extra sinister secret.It has very reason to try and blend in with mundane society while hiding in plain sight.Its everything that made Dracula cool in the first place and Bram Stoker didnt particularly care about his level adjustment

[Tanuki Tales]

The later

A Vampire is human with class levels with an extra sinister secret.It has very reason to try and blend in with mundane society while hiding in plain sight.Its everything that made Dracula cool in the first place and Bram Stoker didnt particularly care about his level adjustment

Why would he? He didn't have to abide by some arbitrary and draconian rule subsystem, or any rule system for that matter, that saddled down his villain or any Hollywood and mixed media baggage that was tacked on to be even more of an albatross.

Though Dracula would be a 10th level (bare minimum) character with the Vampire Lord template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) regardless.