[3.5] Core Only 2-Man Party, Build Help/What to Play?

[Iron Orbit]

As the title says, I'm playing a 2-man campaign soon, that is core only. The DM doesn't like non-core stuff so it's a no-go. Campaign starts at level 3 and I was looking for some advice/help on what to play that would be fun and effective?

The other player is going to play a straight Druid with a focus on summons. I'm kinda leaning towards a Cleric of Fharlangh (the DM said I could take Travel/Trickery for domains and those seemed to be good). Stats are rolled as follows, but can maybe opt into 32 pt buy if necessary: 17, 16, 14, 13, 10, 9. If you could also provide me with feat/spell suggestions along with the class/build that would be helpful. If there's any other information you need let me know and I'll do my best to provide it. Thanks.

[Psyren]

With the Druid covering divine magic, summons and tanking, I'd actually go with Rogue/Wizard into Arcane Trickster myself. Focus on blasting (particularly with rays), skills, lore and control.

Alternatively you could be a straight Bard - this would let you buff up his summons, be a decent skillmonkey, and cover the knowledges fairly well also.

[Fouredged Sword]

Druid focused on summons and wildshape paired with a cleric seems fine to me.

[Iron Orbit]

With the Druid covering divine magic, summons and tanking, I'd actually go with Rogue/Wizard into Arcane Trickster myself. Focus on blasting (particularly with rays), skills, lore and control.

I've never played that particular class combination (or role for that matter). How many levels of rogue/wizard would I take, and at what point do I prestige out into Arcane Trickster? It certainly sounds like an interesting combination, and I like the idea of blasting and skill-monkeying.

[Fouredged Sword]

One level of rogue, as many levels of wizard as possible, and as soon as possible.

I believe the cookie cutter build is rouge 1 / wizard 4 / Trickster X leading into another wizard PRC. Archmage seems the best choice in core.

[Psyren]

The main obstacle to your entry is the 2d6 sneak attack requirement, which in core-only will mean 3 levels of rogue. Add that to the 3rd-level arcane spells you'll need and you're looking at a Wiz 5/Rog 3 entry at the earliest. You can still get to 9th-level spells with this build, and you'll also have a total of 7d6 sneak attack, but your spell progression will be behind as a result.

[Karnith]

One level of rogue, as many levels of wizard as possible, and as soon as possible.
Arcane Trickster requires Sneak Attack +2d6, so that doesn't work. In Core, you're stuck with Rogue 3/Wizard 5 to get in.

EDIT: Swordsage'd.

[Eldariel]

Arcane Trickster requires Sneak Attack +2d6, so that doesn't work. In Core, you're stuck with Rogue 3/Wizard 5 to get in.

EDIT: Swordsage'd.

Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Assassin 1 works, actually.

[Karnith]

Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Assassin 1 works, actually.
I was thinking of that, but aren't the skill rank requirements prohibitive? I haven't actually run the math yet, so I'm not sure.

[Eldariel]

I was thinking of that, but aren't the skill rank requirements prohibitive? I haven't actually run the math yet, so I'm not sure.

Hardly. The math isn't very complex; you need two skills at 8 ranks to qualify. Since you want to take Rogue first you'll need to cross-class Hide and Move Silently to 8 ranks but that's merely 4 points. You'll have enough for that, Spellcraft, Knowledge: Arcana and Concentration as an 18 Int Human Wizard or 20 Int Gray Elf Wizard. Then it opens up a lot with Arcane Trickster (and on first Rogue level, you'll have 13*4=52 skillpoints to spend with an amazing skill list).

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Assassin 1 qualifies.

EDIT: Ah, Arcane Trickster. Can be handled with Assassin 1 and Wizard skill allocation easily enough (though obviously, sucks you need 7 points in Decipher Script).

[Fouredged Sword]

One would have to go Wizard 5 / rogue 1 / assassin 1 / trickster X

Assuming 18 int

Wizard 5 - 2+int (56 points) cap 8/4 invest skills in decipher script 7 ranks, disguise 4 ranks, hide 4 ranks, and move sci 4 ranks, knowledge arcana 4, escape artist 4 and disable device 4.
Rogue - 8+int (13 points) - Hide to 8 and move sci to 8 (8 points used), and fill the rest into escape artist 7 and disable device 6
Assassin - 4+int (9 points) - Here you fill in disable device and escape artist for the trickster prereqs, so disable device 7 and escape artist 7

Done, with a few skillpoints to spare.

- You need wizard 5 for 3rd level spells

[Karnith]

EDIT: Ah, Arcane Trickster. Can be handled with Assassin 1 and Wizard skill allocation easily enough (though obviously, sucks you need 7 points in Decipher Script).
Having run the math now on my own, I realize that I wasn't thinking about the Assassin level granting skill points. Whoops. Though the character would also need to be evil, which can be a bit of a downer.

[eggynack]

I'd really rather just be a straight wizard than an arcane trickster, cause wizards are neat in infinite quantity. You can pretty much cover rogue stuff through wizardishness, and you don't really need a melee presence with a druid right there. It's a pretty good party organization, because a druid is an infinite tank, and a wizard can do infinite things. The cleric option is solid as well, but I tend to prefer wizards.

[Eldariel]

Having run the math now, I wasn't thinking about the Assassin level granting skill points. Whoops. Though the character would also need to be evil, which can be a bit of a downer.

Yeah, the alignment is a real downer unless DM is willing to handwave it; it's only there 'cause Assassins are a Grey Hawk organization with those requirements after all but there's no reason for the class to require it. Being able to emulate Evil alignment and stage the murder should work even there but by and large, I don't feel those requirements make much sense.

There's also the option of alignment shift afterwards.

[Iron Orbit]

So would it be better to play a straight cleric? Or go for this multiclassed arcane trickster? Or just wizard..? (I'm not experienced with wizard at all haha)

[eggynack]

So would it be better to play a straight cleric? Or go for this multiclassed arcane trickster? Or just wizard..? (I'm not experienced with wizard at all haha)
Well, I obviously prefer the cleric or wizard options to the arcane trickster option. If you desire wizard brain understanding, Treantmonk's guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0) is the source I usually look to.

[energyscholar]

I'm kinda leaning towards a Cleric of Fharlangh (the DM said I could take Travel/Trickery for domains and those seemed to be good). Stats are rolled as follows, but can maybe opt into 32 pt buy if necessary: 17, 16, 14, 13, 10, 9. If you could also provide me with feat/spell suggestions along with the class/build that would be helpful. If there's any other information you need let me know and I'll do my best to provide it. Thanks.

That sounds like a fine combination. Travel/Trickery is a good domain combo. Sounds like you have a reasonable plan.

My only suggestion is that you might consider using a long spear as your primary melee weapon, and no shield. It's the only reach weapon available to all 3.5 clerics. You already have the high STR important for two handed weapon users. You might consider dropping your DEX to 14, as 3 Attacks of Opportunity (AoO) per round is usually sufficient. Your Druid companion will not have reach until high level, so your having reach would complement your companion's fighting style nicely. You can also carry a bow, as you have the stats for archery. This approach requires only 3.5 Core rules, although you had best make sure your GM understands the AoO rules.

The trick is to maximize your action efficiency by casting a spell during YOUR turn and inflicting martial damage through Attacks of Opportunity during the ENEMY turn. Combat Reflexes, while not essential to this approach, gives you an iterative attack against each foe who approaches and also gives you AoOs even when you lose initiative. Using this approach you can inflict a lot of damage without ever attacking during your turn, which leaves you free to cast spells.

With sound tactics and a little luck, you'll be able to both cast a spell and get multiple attacks each round. Since you have only one partner, the two of you can work out some highly effective combinations, most of which will involve forcing foes to repeatedly approach you, giving you an AoO every time. Large parties have trouble coordinating this pattern (someone always wants to rush the foe, even if it's awful tactics), but a group of two can pull it off. Tactically smart foes might not let you get away with this for long, but it's easy to massacre hordes of stupid foes using this tactic. Your Tumbling skill may become quite important.

Even when foes REFUSE to approach you it's STILL a win, because then they are not attacking you in melee. You become an effective screen for your partner. You are both spell casters, so it is to your benefit if foes fear to approach you!

There's a guide to this approach for Pathfinder (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p68o?New-Class-Guide-Reach-Cleric). 90% of it applies to 3.5, and I've run several such PCs in both 3.5 and Pathfinder with very good results. Just ignore the stuff about Sacred Summons and anything else non-core. I recently posted an example of this build at 3rd level here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15732750). Also, in Tark's essay On Building a Balanced RPG Team (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p576?On-building-a-balanced-group-working-out-just), the group's Cleric uses this build.

[Psyren]

You can certainly go with cleric instead if the wizard route is more daunting. My main reason for suggesting an arcanist is that you two will have some overlap if you're both divine, but overlap can be a good thing too. Plus it depends on things like how much your DM likes traps or stealth or knowledge rolls etc.

[Eldariel]

So would it be better to play a straight cleric? Or go for this multiclassed arcane trickster? Or just wizard..? (I'm not experienced with wizard at all haha)

Wizard is stronger power-wise. Wizard offers more that a Druid doesn't than a Cleric, as well. I think you want a Wizard-base. The real question is whether to go Arcane Trickster or not. Arcane Trickster would give you the skills + Trapfinding but make you weaker overall.

The biggest problem with Druid/Wizard setup is especially low level trapfinding. The trapfinding rules of Core are pretty rough and since you plain can't find high difficulty mechanical traps, there are lots of dungeons in most game worlds you'll basically need to comb through with summons and pray there are no truly harmful traps in there, if you need to acquire some artifacts within. You could hire a Rogue (or Leadership, I guess) or just hope the campaign world doesn't contain traps you can't find or ask your DM to handwave the trapfinding rules (since they're dumb).


Find Traps would help but it's ironically a Cleric-only spell. Yet, without a Wizard you'll lose out on a lot of magical muscle so I can't recommend that. Loremaster gets Use Magic Device so that might be a good middle-ground.

[Psyren]

Rogue 1/Wizard X will work too. You won't have as much sneak attack but you'll get the trap skills you need, a boatload of skill points at first level and much better casting progression. When both of you can sneak (you via wearing cloth + being invisible, or gaseous form etc., and him by wildshaping into a rat or something) it opens up a whole new landscape of tactical options.

That is another problem with cleric, you both miss out on some key buffs that way. Yeah Trickery will get you Invisibility, but only for one of you, whereas Wizard can buff you both; you'll also need to take off your armor or else clank everywhere. You'll have a hard time flying with him for long if you need to get anywhere by air. Travel does get you teleportation though.

[Iron Orbit]

Our campaigns have always been light on traps so I think that's less of an issue for us than your average game. I guess I'm leaning towards wizard then to cover our arcane bases. I've never played wizard core only though. I assume it works well anyways though?

Edit: rogue 1/wizard x sounds good though, is it good to prestige into archmage later?

[Psyren]

The best wizard spells are in core, so yes :smallsmile:

Someone linked a handbook earlier that should help you.

[Eldariel]

Our campaigns have always been light on traps so I think that's less of an issue for us than your average game. I guess I'm leaning towards wizard then to cover our arcane bases. I've never played wizard core only though. I assume it works well anyways though?

Edit: rogue 1/wizard x sounds good though, is it good to prestige into archmage later?

Always go Loremaster on level 8 and Archmage on 16 on a Core Wizard (unless you want to use Red Wizard of Thay, which is ridiculous and in the DMG). Loremaster expands your skill list, gets you extra skill points and some minor boons, and Archmage has irreplicable abilities (in particular, Mastery of Shaping & Arcane Reach; extra 9th level slot from Spell-Like Ability and Spell Power +1 are pretty nice as well).

[Iron Orbit]

The best wizard spells are in core, so yes :smallsmile:

Someone linked a handbook earlier that should help you.

Awesome, I've read the handbook before (I do a lot of lurking and reading about TO) but I'll give it a deeper read and such. Thanks.


Always go Loremaster on level 8 and Archmage on 16 on a Core Wizard (unless you want to use Red Wizard of Thay, which is ridiculous and in the DMG). Loremaster expands your skill list, gets you extra skill points and some minor boons, and Archmage has irreplicable abilities (in particular, Mastery of Shaping & Arcane Reach; extra 9th level slot from Spell-Like Ability and Spell Power +1 are pretty nice as well).

Would Red Wizard be a useful addition to the party or it's ridiculous as in crazy shenanigans with that Circle Leader ability?
If not Red Wizard, I'm looking at a build something like Wizard 8/Loremaster X(how many levels does one traditionally take? Just a 1 level dip?)/More Wizard/Archmage @16 ..?

[energyscholar]

Guys, they are talking about starting at Level 3. That means dozens of game sessions before they become high level, if they even get there. Let's make sure our suggestions are useful at low levels.

Whether they settle on Druid and Cleric or Druid and Wizard, multi-classing will only hinder them. A Wizard X will almost always be more powerful than a SomeOtherClass 2/Wizard X-2 . Same is true for a Cleric. Especially if they make good use of Summons, which are powerful core spells available to both of them.

The comments about trap finding are dead on. They will probably need to resort to triggering suspected traps with summoned creatures, which uses up spells quickly. Oh well. With only 2 PCs they just can't do it all,and should not try.

[Psyren]

Rogue 1/Wiz 2 isn't significantly behind Wiz 3 in power I'd say. You end up with the same progression as a sorcerer that way, and sorcerers still manage to crack the game like an egg when they want to. Mmm, eggs...

Still, there's nothing wrong with Wiz X/Loremaster/Archmage with no rogue levels at all either.

[eggynack]

Guys, they are talking about starting at Level 3. That means dozens of game sessions before they become high level, if they even get there. Let's make sure our suggestions are useful at low levels.

Whether they settle on Druid and Cleric or Druid and Wizard, multi-classing will only hinder them. A Wizard X will almost always be more powerful than a SomeOtherClass 2/Wizard X-2 . Same is true for a Cleric. Especially if they make good use of Summons, which are powerful core spells available to both of them.

The comments about trap finding are dead on. They will probably need to resort to triggering suspected traps with summoned creatures, which uses up spells quickly. Oh well. With only 2 PCs they just can't do it all,and should not try.
Well, a straight druid is about as good at low level as it is at low level. There's just something about the balance of class features that makes druids awesome all the time. Your point is well taken in reference to wizards though. I mean, if you're adding a rogue level to two levels of wizard, that's web and alter self you're losing out on, and it's a big loss. The loss in caster levels means so much at that phase of the game. A wizard and a druid probably can't perfectly replace a rogue, but they can come close. In a pinch, you can always have the animal companion stay at the front of the party to be the one to trigger traps. That's probably where you want him anyways, given that he's the party tank at basically all levels. A third level wizard is solid though, and is starting to hit the levels where they can last awhile. It's not like they necessarily have to at that point, between alarm, a riding dog guard, and maybe rope trick.

[Eldariel]

Would Red Wizard be a useful addition to the party or it's ridiculous as in crazy shenanigans with that Circle Leader ability?
If not Red Wizard, I'm looking at a build something like Wizard 8/Loremaster X(how many levels does one traditionally take? Just a 1 level dip?)/More Wizard/Archmage @16 ..?

Red Wizard is great overall, but Circle Magic is the best part. Don't bother with it; filling a Circle would be too big of a hassle I reckon. Far as Loremaster goes, as many as you can; levels of Loremaster are basically just better than levels of Wizard. Wizard 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5 is a solid 20 level build.

Note, entering on level 8 means you take 7 levels of Wizard and then the 8th level in Loremaster.

[Iron Orbit]

Red Wizard is great overall, but Circle Magic is the best part. Don't bother with it; filling a Circle would be too big of a hassle I reckon. Far as Loremaster goes, as many as you can; levels of Loremaster are basically just better than levels of Wizard. Wizard 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5 is a solid 20 level build.

Note, entering on level 8 means you take 7 levels of Wizard and then the 8th level in Loremaster.

Yeah haha I realized that last part after posting. Just wasn't thinking straight on first read through and then got it stuck in my head. And alright, I think I'll go with that build then. Solid and our little party of two covers a lot of the bases. Trapfinding will just be having the poor wolf/dog/bear/whatever walking into suspicious looking areas. Are there any core feats/spells that I should take special note of/are too good to miss out on? Otherwise I'll probably get started with the character now or sometime soon.

Edit: I did just find another post by you Eldariel, so sorry if I've made you repeat things, I only just found it now (weak google-fu) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-111699.html

[Eldariel]

Yeah haha I realized that last part after posting. Just wasn't thinking straight on first read through and then got it stuck in my head. And alright, I think I'll go with that build then. Solid and our little party of two covers a lot of the bases. Trapfinding will just be having the poor wolf/dog/bear/whatever walking into suspicious looking areas. Are there any core feats/spells that I should take special note of/are too good to miss out on? Otherwise I'll probably get started with the character now or sometime soon.

Druid Feats:
S: Natural Spell, (Leadership)
A: Augment Summoning, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Multiattack [MM]
B: Spell Focus, Flyby Attack [MM], Improved Initiative, Empower Spell

Wizard Feats:
S: Improved Familiar [DMG], (Leadership)
A: Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Extend Spell, Quicken Spell
B: Spell Focus, Improved Initiative, Flyby Attack [MM], Empower Spell


Leadership in parenthesis since much depends on the game if it fits or not. In addition, depending on the campaign world (magic item availability) and possible available downtime, you probably want one person to take Craft Wondrous Items. Perhaps Craft Rods and/or Craft Wands too (Metamagic Rods mostly; Wands can go on the familiar and stuff).

Improved Familiar basically gets you a useful secondary action source instead of the minor benefits of having a Familiar so you definitely want one. It can Use Magic Device to use Wands, many have few of their own spells, etc.

Spell Penetration is pretty key in Core since many great spells have Spell Resistance and many of the more dangerous core creatures (including Clerics and Druids) have it in plentitude. Only way to get near autopass in Core is to pump Caster Level and get both Spell Penetration feats.

Other than that, Druid can do combat so feats in that regard are useful. Then just stuff that enhances your spell. Extend Spell for superlong duration buffs (low levels 1 hour/level, higher up 10 min/level buffs) and Quicken Spell to unload twice the spells fast when necessary (generally want it around level 12 when you have the slots to actually prepare spells).

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, one of you can invest in UMD and get a wand of find traps and invest cross class in search and disable device. 3 skill points per level isn't to bad on a high int character.

[Eldariel]

Also, one of you can invest in UMD and get a wand of find traps and invest cross class in search and disable device. 3 skill points per level isn't to bad on a high int character.

Wizard can pull it off but it doesn't get workable until Loremaster-levels (hell, first Secret could be Instant Mastery: Disable Device to save 8 skillpoints); UMD becomes a class skill and he's Int-based anyways. Interestingly, Search is a class skill for Archmage but not normal Wizard. Of course, Disable Device restrictions still apply. Dispel Magic deals with magic traps (though the CL can be prohibitive) but normals can be hard.

[Fouredged Sword]

I find that most mundane traps can be solved by a sufficiently strong summon, or with an application of disintegrate.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Fouredgedsword
...or with an application of disintegrate.

Meaning, the sixth-level wizard spell? That this fellow won't get for another eight levels?

[Psyren]

Since OP doesn't think traps will be a big deal I say go full Wiz->Loremaster->Archmage.

[Endarire]

Red Wizard Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9309)

One thing that hasn't been covered is replacement characters. A Rogue (or Rogue1/WizX) is more necessary if you can't bring in Sir Castsalot II after the first one croaks. What about swapping characters mid-campaign? For example, you could start as a Druid then swap to Wizard/Red Wizard once your level is high enough.

Remember also, Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) is core. Consider that for a (Rogue/)Wizard.