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Gadzooks27
2013-08-02, 01:23 AM
Dreamer
http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/237/5/5/hey_monsters_by_sakimichan-d47t82h.jpg

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -Willem Wonkar, Dreamsbane of the North

Description: The dreamer is an adventurer with her head in the clouds. Her level of imagination is so strong that it seeps into the world. Her ideas and musings are projected as spells imposed on the world. Between her imagined spells and her mastery of the world of dreams, the dreamer creates her own colorful flare for the party.
Abilities: The dreamer's primary casting ability is Charisma, which determines how many bonus spells they get daily, as well as the highest level of spell they can cast. To push her imagination into reality, she needs a forceful personality. Second to charisma is wisdom. Dreamers need an understanding of how reality works for their imaginings to bear greater substance, and wisdom determines the DC of spells. Constitution, Dexterity, and Intelligence otherwise are equally important to dreamers for survival and skill points.

Hit Die: d6
Alignment: non-lawful

The Dreamer
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Muse|3|2

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Chastise Figments, Dreamtelling|4|3

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Detect Figments|5|4|2

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Dream Wary|6|5|3

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Listen To Your Muse, Oneiromancy|6|6|4|2

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Unnatural Will|6|6|5|3

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5||6|6|6|4|2

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6| Improved Oneiromancy|6|6|6|5|3

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6||6|6|6|6|4|2

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Muse channeling|6|6|6|6|5|3

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7||6|6|6|6|6|4|2

12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8||6|6|6|6|6|5|3

13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8||6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+9||6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+9|Weaken figments|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5[/table]
The dreamer’s class skills (and the key ability for each
skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Bluff (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (The Planes) (Int), Lucid Dreaming (Wis)*, Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) × 4.
*- New skill in Manual of The Planes, pg. 203.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
A dreamer is proficient with the club, dagger, dart, hand-axe, javelin, light crossbow, quarterstaff, sickle, scimitar, spear, sling, shortbow, shortsword, unarmed strikes, and with light armor.

Spells:
A dreamer casts arcane spells from the wizard/sorcerer spell list. A dreamer may cast any spell she has Imagined, much like a bard or sorcerer can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time.
To imagine or cast a spell, a dreamer must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell level (Charisma 10 for 0-level spells, Charisma 11 for 1st-level spells, and so on). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a dreamer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the dreamer’s Wisdom modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a dreamer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on the dreamer table. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table 1–1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8 of the Player’s Handbook).
Like a sorcerer, a dreamer knows only a small number of spells. However, each day a dreamer may change the spells she knows. When a dreamer meditates to regain her daily allotment of spells (see below), she
sends forth her muse to bring her ideas (The list of the specific socerer/wizard spells she will be able to use that day). This is called Imagining daily spells. She can cast any spell she has imagined at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level. For example, a 3rd-level dreamer can imagine three 0-level, two 1st-level, and one 2nd-level spells. She can cast 0-level spells five times, 1st-level spells four times, and her 2nd-level spell two times in the course of the day. She might end up using the same 0-level spell five times, or one 0-level spell two times and another 0-level spell three times, etc.
If a dreamer knows any metamagic feats, she applies them to her spells when she imagines her spells for the day. For example, a dreamer might choose to imagine an empowered fire ball by using a 5th-level spell retrieved slot. Any time she uses fire ball during the ensuing day, she must use a 5th-level spell slot to cast it, and it is always empowered. A dreamer could use a 4th-level spell slot and a 5th-level spell slot to retrieve fire ball and empowered fire ball if she wanted to have both spells available to her in a day. A dreamer cannot choose to alter her spells with metamagic feats on the fly, as other spontaneous casters do. Dreamers using metamagic feats do not have an increased casting time as sorcerers do.
Each dreamer must choose a time at which she must spend 1 hour in quiet meditation to gain her daily allotment of spells by imagining a new set of spells she knows on that day.
Spells Imagined per Day

{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|3|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|3|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|3|2|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

4th|3|3|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

5th|3|3|1|1|—|—|—|—|—|—

6th|3|3|2|1|—|—|—|—|—|—

7th|3|3|2|1|1|—|—|—|—|—

8th|3|3|2|2|1|—|—|—|—|—

9th|3|3|3|2|1|1|—|—|—|—

10th|3|3|3|2|2|1|—|—|—|—

11th|3|3|3|3|2|1|1|—|—|—

12th|3|3|3|3|2|2|1|—|—|—

13th|3|3|3|3|3|2|1|1|—|—

14th|3|3|3|3|3|2|2|1|—|—

15th|3|3|3|3|3|3|2|1|1|—

16th|3|3|3|3|3|3|2|2|1|—

17th|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|2|1|1

18th|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|2|2|1

19th|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|2|2

20th|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|2[/table]

Class Features
Muse (Su): All dreamers have a muse, a personification of their creativity. In some sense a dreamer and her muse are one being, both knowing and seeing and experiencing the same things. Unlike a familiar, a muse is not a separate entity from a dreamer. She is the only one who can perceive or interact with her muse; It exists only inside her own mind.
A dreamer’s muse dictates the brand of signature creativity that the dreamer receives. The muse is a bit picky, demanding that the dreamer not be able to imagine any spells from two chosen schools of magic. These schools can be random or chosen by the dreamer, truly. All other schools of magic are considered “specialized schools” for the sake of relevant feats, though they do not add more spells each day as they would for a wizard.
The muse holds subconscious thought and therefore adds +1 bonus to all knowledge checks in which a dreamer has at least one rank. They also provide the Spell Penetration feat at 1st level. The muse also grants additional abilities at the 5th and 10th levels. The exact form of a muse is purely personal preference, and confers no special advantages or disadvantages.

Chastise Figments (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a dreamer can use the intense power of her imagination to damage hostile living figments. A living figment is any aberration, fey, any creature with the incorporeal subtype, or Spirit creatures created by spells such as dream sight or wood wose (see Chapter 7 of CD). A living figment is a creature which defies sanity, manipulates the mind and otherwise should not exist in nature.
Chastising figments is a standard action that deals 1d6 damage/dreamer level to all living figments within 30 feet of the dreamer. The affected living figments get a Will save (DC 10+ dreamer level + Wis modifier) for half damage.
When using this ability against incorporeal creatures, a dreamer does not have to roll the normal 50% miss chance—the effect hits the figments automatically. A dreamer can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Wisdom modifier. This number increases to 5 + her wisdom modifier at level 10.
Uses of the chastise figments ability can be expended for the gain of certain dreamer tools meant to better combat nightmarish forces. All of these uses of chastise figments are supernatural abilities unless noted otherwise. These tools are as follows:

Dream Catcher: Starting at 4th level, a dreamer can create a mental barrier around herself to ward off nightmares. By expending one daily use of chastise figments, you gain the effect of protection from evil for yourself. Instead of warding against evil creatures, however, you ward yourself against living figments. Use your own caster level for the effect.

Nightmare Ward: Starting at 7th level, a dreamer can ward herself and her companions against hostile living figments. By expending three daily uses of chastise figments, the dreamers muse gears up with tougher armor and deadly weapons constructed by the dreamers imagination. The muse acts as a guardian for all creatures within the nightmare ward. The warding lasts for 10 minutes per level and otherwise functions like magic circle against evil, except it protects against living figments. This is a spell-like ability.

Banishment: This is a spell-like ability. At level 13, a dreamer gains the ability to send nightmares crawling by force of will. By expending 4 uses of chastise figments, a dreamer can use the spell Banishment with the following changes: Instead of extraplanar creatures, this spell-like ability only works on living figments. Instead of sending them immediately back to their home plane, they are sent to the dreamscape, where they will stay for 6d12 hours before returning to consciousness on their homeplane. When using this ability, the dreamer can add her Charisma modifier to the save DC. If, for some reason, a dreamer is subject to this ability, the dreamer may add half her dreamer levels as a bonus to her save.

Dreamtelling: Your muse, being a part of your subconscious mind, helps you to better translate and understand the meaning of dreams. This is where you take your first step into the art of dream-mastery. Gain the feat Dreamtelling (HoH pg. 122).

Detect Figments (Sp): The dreamer’s muse perceives nearby living figments. At will, the dreamer can use detect figments as a spell-like ability. It functions just like detect undead, except it detects creatures that are considered living figments, as noted above.

Dream Wary (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a dreamer develops a continuous +2 bonus to saves against illusions and enchantments.

Listen To Your Muse (Su): At 5th level and higher, a dreamer’s muse helps her maintain control of her mind. If a dreamer is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She only gets this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.

Unnatural Will (Ex): In the sea of your imagination and the dreamscape, there are many fear-instilling nightmares as well as fantastic wonders. Your protective muse shines a warming light for you that toughens your will against the chilling horrors of the dark. Gain the feat Unnatural Will (HoH pg 124), whether or not you meet the prerequisites.

Oneiromancy: Your imagined spells grow stronger in the dream scape. Gain the oneiromancy feat (HoH pg. 123).
Note- You do not gain the spell focus feats in the dreamscape if your muse does not allow you to cast illusion or enchantment spells.

Improved Oneiromancy: You learn at last how to harness the power of dreams and channel it into your casting. Gain the improved oneiromancy feat (HoH pg. 123). With this feat, you add the following spells to the list of spells you can imagine: 1st Level: restful slumber. 4th Level: dream walk, manifest desire, manifest nightmare. 5th Level: dreaming puppet. 7th Level: dream sight.

Muse Channeling (Su): Starting at 10th level, as a free action, a dreamer can assign her muse the task of concentrating on a spell or spell-like ability that is maintained through concentration. The dreamer can act normally while her muse concentrates on the spell. A muse can concentrate on only one spell at a time. If necessary to maintain the spell, the muse makes Concentration checks for the dreamer, using the dreamer’s normal Concentration modifier. A muse does not have to make Concentration checks for circumstances such as the dreamer taking damage. The muse itself is not present for anyone to interrupt or otherwise interact with.

Weaken Figments (Su): At 15th level and higher, a dreamer can choose to strip living figments of their defenses instead of damaging them with her chastise figments ability. When a living figment is weakened, it loses its spell resistance and any damage reduction overcome by magic weapons, silver or cold iron weapons, and aligned weapons (but not damage reduction overcome by adamantine weapons or not overcome by anything). In addition, an incorporeal living figment loses its immunity to nonmagical attacks, its 50% chance to ignore damage from corporeal sources, and its ability to move into or through objects.
To weaken figments, a dreamer uses her chastise figments ability but chooses to do less damage in exchange for weakening the living figments for a short time. For each 3d6 of chastise figment damage the dreamer foregoes, the affected figments are weakened for 1 round. For example, a 16th-level dreamer chastising two eladrins deals 16d6 points of damage to each eladrin, but she could choose to deal 7d6 points of damage to each eladrin and weaken them for 3 rounds. Living figments that make their Will save against the chastise figments damage are unaffected by the weakening effect (but still take half the damage).

Adventures: Most dreamers adventure because they are drawn to adventure and fantastic realms. Adventuring is only natural for one who thinks only of fantastic possibilities. In a low-magic campaign especially, dreamers are inclined to leave home in pursuit of more eventful missions.
Adaptation: Dreamers serve best in adventures saturated with dreams, enchantments, and other similar mystical themes. However, they can also serve as NPC oracles and magicians, with their enchantments and mastery of dreams. Alternatively, a dreamer might be a special or "chosen" individual hailing from a town where magic is scarce.
Charecteristics: Dreamers are very contemplative but easily distracted. By nature, they are quite usually not "here", and their state of mind often questioned. While they have as much capability for loyalty and dedication as anybody else, it is not unheard of for a dreamer to cast aside the need of his companions for the sake of pursuing a greater distraction. Dreamers are also revered and admonished for their eccentricities (Clothing, housing, mannerisms, etc.).
Alignment: Dreamers have no conventional sense of order, nor of undying codes of ethics, and as such cannot live for lawful pursuits. However, a dreamer can dream about anything at all. Many dreamers are optimists, however, and lean in the direction of kind and caring dispositions with a mild and decent sense of justice.
Religion: Many dreamers worship Sehanine Moonbow, as her gift of dreaming is the most cherished of earthly gifts. A lot of dreamers, however, practice no organized religion, but instead create their own creeds by which to live.
Background: Many dreamers simply hail from lives of boredom and run-of-the-mill average factory and farm jobs. Small towns also produce great dreamers. A true dreamer develops the will to dream as an instictive response to reject the mundane, and so lives of meaningless plain-ness will often produce the best and most free-spirited dreamers.
Races: While any race can and has adopted the dreamer practice, most prone to this life style are the humans. While they're very versatile, humans are not, by convention, extraordinary beings. This leads to a lot of discontent with "ordinary" and a craving for the supernatural and the fantastic.
Other Classes: Melee fighters can benefit greatly from assisting dreamers, and spellcasters who forgot to prepare certain spells may want to have a dreamer around. The only class that typically doesn't care for the dreamer is the beguiler. From the beguiler's standpoint, the dreamer's job is redundant and poorly done.
Role: The dreamer is only a mediocre melee combatant, but she can hurl spell after spell in a combat situation. No other character matches her ability to study a situation and customize her spell selection for offense, defense, or special purposes. Like the wizard and sorcerer, she can be a major detriment to enemy forces as well as party buffer, but she works best in environments where she can devote more spells to conjuring loyal beasts and constructing illusions from her mind, or otherwise imposing her will on the unsuspecting. In a campaign with many dream scape sequences, she also serves as a useful guide to the party; a much needed boon to their mental health.
NPC reaction:
"This cosmic dance of bursting decadence is such a wonder to behold that, withheld from our minds, twists all our hearts collectively. But if dreams can win, and they can, I'll still be here tomorrow." -Hrathgar, loyal yet insane friend of Willem Wonkar.
NPCs find dreamers to be too silly and distracted, or otherwise too naive. Still, just about every walk of life understands the importance of a dreamer ally. They're great for quickly responding to any situation, as well as fighting off nightmares. Fighters especially appreciate the buffing dreamers can provide for the whole party. Wizards don't understand and often resent the dreamer's ability to control the universe with nothing but sheer will-power.

Thoughts, comments, concerns?

Xaotiq1
2013-08-02, 08:03 AM
The first thing to do is format this so one's eyes don't bleed when trying to read it. This thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313
is most helpful. Especially in regard to tables. Also, you want to bold the title of your class features as it helps to see where one ends & the other begins. Oh, and there is at least one instance of your class being called "Spirit Shaman".

A cursory glance at the class tells me that you've done a mashup of sha'ir and spirit shaman. Not a pair I'd have thought to combine, but decent. And yeah, definitely Tier 2, though I'm pretty generous when it comes to the tier system, so... grain of salt and all that.

LordErebus12
2013-08-02, 08:13 AM
Chastise Figments (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a dreamer can use the intense power of her imagination to damage hostile figments. A figment is any aberration, dragon, fey, elemental, any creature with the incorporeal subtype, or Spirit creatures created by spells such as dream sight or wood wose (see Chapter 7 of CD). In a dreamer’s worldview, aberrations, fey, elementals and certain spirits are all just the products of raw, concentrated imaginations.

Thoughts, comments, concerns?

I think you need to re-examine your list here... But first, explain in real world terms what you define as a figment...



Id define it as "Something invented, made up, or fabricated: just a figment of the imagination". Throwing out the obvious argument that all creatures in DnD are technically imaginary, we can assume several things. In game terms, a figment is generally an illusionary effect created by magic.


Figment Subschool

A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.



Dragons are very real and dwell within the material plane (with a few exceptions), having set principles and generalized basics. They have both corporeal bodies and souls. Because of this they are not remotely capable of being classically defined as figments.

As for aberrations, they defy conventional (and often sane) imagination, with some exceptions. They could be somewhat suitable, if unlikely in many cases, for being treated as a "figment". Many are very real and pose direct threats to those living within the world.

As for Fey and Elementals, they are both spiritual entities, but are still real.




Overall, Its a huge stretch without much reasoning, imo, to refer to any creature not created by a illusion effect as a figment. As for so far, your class does not go into much explanation of why such creatures should be considered as figments, especially since it contradicts numerous core beliefs of the system.



This is not meant to discourage you, merely to point out something that has me totally confused with the very logic of a main point of the class.

Also, start tabling it all, so its easier to process.

blackmage
2013-08-02, 11:09 AM
Here, have a table. Copy-paste the code inside the second spoiler into your own post and it will make the table.

The Dreamer
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Muse|3|2

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Chastise Figments|4|3

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Detect Figments|5|4|2

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Dream Catcher, Dream Wary|6|5|3

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Listen To Your Muse|6|6|4|2

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Nightmare Warrior|6|6|5|3

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Nightmare Ward|6|6|6|4|2

8th|
+6|
+6|
+2|
+6||6|6|6|5|3

9th|
+6|
+6|
+3|
+6|Figment form 1/day|6|6|6|6|4|2

10th|
+7|
+7|
+3|
+7|Muse magic|6|6|6|6|5|3

11th|
+8|
+7|
+3|
+7||6|6|6|6|6|4|2

12th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8||6|6|6|6|6|5|3

13th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8|Banishment|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

14th|
+10|
+9|
+4|
+9||6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

15th|
+11|
+9|
+5|
+9|Figment form 2/day|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

16th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|Weaken figments|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

17th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|Wandering Mind|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

18th|
+13|
+11|
+6|
+11||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

19th|
+14|
+11|
+6|
+11|A Happy Ending|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

20th|
+15|
+12|
+6|
+12|Figment form 3/day, Stranger Than Fiction|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5[/table]

[noparse]The Dreamer
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Muse|3|2

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Chastise Figments|4|3

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Detect Figments|5|4|2

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Dream Catcher, Dream Wary|6|5|3

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Listen To Your Muse|6|6|4|2

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Nightmare Warrior|6|6|5|3

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Nightmare Ward|6|6|6|4|2

8th|
+6|
+6|
+2|
+6||6|6|6|5|3

9th|
+6|
+6|
+3|
+6|Figment form 1/day|6|6|6|6|4|2

10th|
+7|
+7|
+3|
+7|Muse magic|6|6|6|6|5|3

11th|
+8|
+7|
+3|
+7||6|6|6|6|6|4|2

12th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8||6|6|6|6|6|5|3

13th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8|Banishment|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

14th|
+10|
+9|
+4|
+9||6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

15th|
+11|
+9|
+5|
+9|Figment form 2/day|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

16th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|Weaken figments|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

17th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|Wandering Mind|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

18th|
+13|
+11|
+6|
+11||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

19th|
+14|
+11|
+6|
+11|A Happy Ending|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

20th|
+15|
+12|
+6|
+12|Figment form 3/day, Stranger Than Fiction|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5[/table][/[noparse]]

My take on the class: It has odd spellcasting, but it has full access to the Wizard spell list. It can rearrange its spells known daily at no cost. As cool as I actually think it is, I also think it makes the class Tier 1 or Tier 2, because it can Do Everything Very Well. It would still be Tier 1 or Tier 2 if you removed every single ability except for the spellcasting, the huge spell list and changing spells known every day are simply that powerful. If that is what you want, that's fine.

Flavorfully/mechanically, what I find most interesting is the 'Muse' bits. It is like you have a little bit of a split personality or other mind hanging out in your brain, and it loves being helpful! I would encourage playing that up as one way to take the class flavorfully. I'm with LordErebus on the figment thing contradicting some existing rules and needing to be further explained/looked at.

LordErebus12
2013-08-02, 11:31 AM
Here, have a table. Copy-paste the code inside the second spoiler into your own post and it will make the table.

The Dreamer
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Muse|3|2

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Chastise Figments|4|3

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Detect Figments|5|4|2

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Dream Catcher, Dream Wary|6|5|3

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Listen To Your Muse|6|6|4|2

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Nightmare Warrior|6|6|5|3

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Nightmare Ward|6|6|6|4|2

8th|
+6|
+6|
+2|
+6||6|6|6|5|3

9th|
+6|
+6|
+3|
+6|Figment form 1/day|6|6|6|6|4|2

10th|
+7|
+7|
+3|
+7|Muse magic|6|6|6|6|5|3

11th|
+8|
+7|
+3|
+7||6|6|6|6|6|4|2

12th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8||6|6|6|6|6|5|3

13th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8|Banishment|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

14th|
+10|
+9|
+4|
+9||6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

15th|
+11|
+9|
+5|
+9|Figment form 2/day|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

16th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|Weaken figments|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

17th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|Wandering Mind|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

18th|
+13|
+11|
+6|
+11||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

19th|
+14|
+11|
+6|
+11|A Happy Ending|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

20th|
+15|
+12|
+6|
+12|Figment form 3/day, Stranger Than Fiction|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5[/table]

[noparse]The Dreamer
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Muse|3|2

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Chastise Figments|4|3

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Detect Figments|5|4|2

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Dream Catcher, Dream Wary|6|5|3

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Listen To Your Muse|6|6|4|2

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Nightmare Warrior|6|6|5|3

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Nightmare Ward|6|6|6|4|2

8th|
+6|
+6|
+2|
+6||6|6|6|5|3

9th|
+6|
+6|
+3|
+6|Figment form 1/day|6|6|6|6|4|2

10th|
+7|
+7|
+3|
+7|Muse magic|6|6|6|6|5|3

11th|
+8|
+7|
+3|
+7||6|6|6|6|6|4|2

12th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8||6|6|6|6|6|5|3

13th|
+9|
+8|
+4|
+8|Banishment|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

14th|
+10|
+9|
+4|
+9||6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

15th|
+11|
+9|
+5|
+9|Figment form 2/day|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

16th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|Weaken figments|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

17th|
+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|Wandering Mind|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|2

18th|
+13|
+11|
+6|
+11||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

19th|
+14|
+11|
+6|
+11|A Happy Ending|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

20th|
+15|
+12|
+6|
+12|Figment form 3/day, Stranger Than Fiction|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5[/table][/[noparse]]

My take on the class: It has odd spellcasting, but it has full access to the Wizard spell list. It can rearrange its spells known daily at no cost. As cool as I actually think it is, I also think it makes the class Tier 1 or Tier 2, because it can Do Everything Very Well. It would still be Tier 1 or Tier 2 if you removed every single ability except for the spellcasting, the huge spell list and changing spells known every day are simply that powerful. If that is what you want, that's fine.

Flavorfully/mechanically, what I find most interesting is the 'Muse' bits. It is like you have a little bit of a split personality or other mind hanging out in your brain, and it loves being helpful! I would encourage playing that up as one way to take the class flavorfully. I'm with LordErebus on the figment thing contradicting some existing rules and needing to be further explained/looked at.

id lean on Tier 0-1, imo.
it has so many goodies compared to the wizard.

Gadzooks27
2013-08-02, 07:20 PM
Thank you so much for the help, guys. Sorry about the eye-sore. :smallbiggrin:
I changed it with blackmage's code, (thank you) and also condensed the post with spoilers. I hope that's a bit better.

And I do agree- some of those powers make even druids seem like chumps. But they are the same powers that Spirit Shamans had and I wondered what made the spirit shamans so unlikeable to so many players.
Spellcasting: My best theory is that the casting prowess is still more limited than that of a wizard in two aspects: 1) wizards can experiment. 2) Wizards can prepare more variety in their spells per day. If a level 10 wizard only prepared 3 different kinds of lv 3 spells in a day, his party members would be thoroughly unamused, lol.
I almost felt that I added a third drawback to casting- MUST eliminate two schools of magic, with no extra spells resulting. But then again, that was just necessary to even the score between the extensive wizard's list and the druid's.

Figments: Absolutely valid points. Yeah I think I'll remove dragons from the list. Almost added constructs, but no decent caster should be able to handle those in any easy way.
I guess the biggest issue was the fluff and the word "figment". I don't want to use the word "nightmare". I'm having trouble thinking of a more apt word, except maybe "living figment". Help? lol and in return, maybe I can help with the fluff.
I'm changing the original text to include: A living figment is a creature which defies sanity, manipulates the mind and otherwise should not exist in nature. The dreamer has a very solid idea of what these creatures are and what makes them unreal, and as such the dreamer has the ability to burn true realty into these creatures.

Thoughts? Btw, thank you for caring ^^

LordErebus12
2013-08-02, 07:37 PM
Figments: Absolutely valid points. Yeah I think I'll remove dragons from the list. Almost added constructs, but no decent caster should be able to handle those in any easy way.
I guess the biggest issue was the fluff and the word "figment". I don't want to use the word "nightmare". I'm having trouble thinking of a more apt word, except maybe "living figment". Help? lol and in return, maybe I can help with the fluff.
I'm changing the original text to include: A living figment is a creature which defies sanity, manipulates the mind and otherwise should not exist in nature. The dreamer has a very solid idea of what these creatures are and what makes them unreal, and as such the dreamer has the ability to burn true realty into these creatures.

Thoughts? Btw, thank you for caring ^^

If we forget the whole "figment" fluff, we can view things from different angles... Perhaps the term "abomination"? if we are seeing things from the point of a good zealous type, many creature types could be abominations, depending on what the caster's guild or group believes in. many religions see things in a similar fashion.

If we look at what the Spirit shaman defines as a spirit, and add a layer of zeal to it, any evil or chaotic spirit is an abomination. the same goes for all Undead, aberrations, generally all chaotic/evil outsiders, oozes. Hell, even Incorporeal or Extraplanar creatures as a whole. Even constructs could fit the bill if we had a group that felt that only living creatures deserved to exist.

Perhaps a Dreamer is someone who simply dedicates their lifes to a dream, one where all their enemies are gone from the world, rather in a Inquisitor-like fashion.

just ideas, i realize you wanted a more... Dreamwalker type feel to it, in thread with the spirit shaman. the problem, i believe, is all tied in the fluff. Perhaps someone else can offer more insight or another idea.

When i look at the muse class feature, i feel like it could be potentially the inner inspiration for a holy/unholy crusade against certain abnormal creatures manifesting to give inspiration and courage along the path to ridding the world of such abominations.

Gadzooks27
2013-08-02, 07:54 PM
Yet I'd prefer for that not to be the case since it would allow for easy abuse of the rules. The nightmare-banishing abilities are meant to be situational and therefore very concentrated. I'd hate for any of my players to think "Oh really? Hmmmmmmmmmmm" because I wanted to bring some new stuff to the table.
Also, I imagine most dreamers aren't too self-righteous. That would be a different feel to the class entirely.
As it is, I changed all the "figment" sections to say living figment instead, and all remaining mentionings of "spirit shaman" now only say dreamer.

If these other ideas are coming to you, feel free to include them in your campaign! I would be delighted if the idea spread. There's already one campaign I know of that has a steampunk element. They credited my "dreamer" as the inspiration for their Inventor class, which has a robotic sidekick lol. It turned out pretty cool. :)

Gadzooks27
2013-08-04, 12:12 PM
Whoops. Forgot to include the Spells Imagined Per Day table. That's fixed though.
Should the dreamer, being an Arcane caster, have half BAB?

LordErebus12
2013-08-04, 12:45 PM
Whoops. Forgot to include the Spells Imagined Per Day table. That's fixed though.
Should the dreamer, being an Arcane caster, have half BAB?

id say so.

blackmage
2013-08-05, 09:10 AM
Whoops. Forgot to include the Spells Imagined Per Day table. That's fixed though.
Should the dreamer, being an Arcane caster, have half BAB?

Also consider dropping the good Fort save. Flavorfully a strong Will save completely makes sense, but no other save really jumps out, and he definitely doesn't need a power level assist.

Gadzooks27
2013-08-05, 02:26 PM
Oh yes! Of course, I completely overlooked that when I copy-pasta'd the spirit shaman.

Hanuman
2013-08-05, 03:11 PM
I feel that Stranger Than Fiction is underwhelming at level 20, and feels to me more of a level 10-15 class feature.

Why not make them an outsider native to the Dream with DR20/Law?

Or is the dreamscape not utilized in this class?

Gadzooks27
2013-08-05, 04:33 PM
Thank you! I can't believe I hadn't thought of that. The world of "pure imagination" is a ridiculous notion. Gugh!

I'll work on tying up all those loose ends when I get the chance.

I should also include a planar defense or adaptive feat for the dreamscape realm. I know I can find some from Heroes of Horror.

Hanuman
2013-08-05, 05:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0sgwz-f-u4

That's not the attitude that will win wonka's heart. :smallbiggrin:

Gadzooks27
2013-08-05, 06:23 PM
Lol geeze, I figured somebody would say it... >.>

TKXapathy
2013-08-06, 06:48 AM
I must say, I really do love the fluff and concept of this class. Though like others have said, it does seem more powerful than your average wizard due to all the tricks it has over it.

Personally, my biggest complaint is that I feel like the class features are way too focused on fighting living figments rather than any other aspect of dreaming.

Gadzooks27
2013-08-10, 12:02 AM
Thank you. That's a great point. I was focused on making this just like a spirit shaman to play it safe. But you're right. MOAR DREME FEETS! And more for the muse.

Gadzooks27
2013-08-10, 01:21 AM
I've added some content, particularly at levels 2, 5, 6, and 8. Also the skill set is out now! These new feats may require that I remove some others. But I'm so clingy!
Anyway, any comments are helpful (so long as that is their intent). ^^

TKXapathy
2013-08-10, 04:59 AM
I would like to point out that there are a lot of the class features that I feel are unnecessary.

The Dreamer is already able to cast nearly as many spells per day as the Sorcerer and has the added edge of being able to change spells known every day. That alone makes it on equal ground with the Wizard/Sorcerer classes. When you take the Dreamer's other class features into account, it is clearly better than both.

IMO, unnecessary class features should be removed or condensed into others for the sake of balance and to remove needless bulk. The class features that combat figments could all be simplified by condensing them into the Chastise Figments class feature.

Example: Nightmare Ward and Nightmare Warrior could consume uses of Chastise Figments upon use.

Gadzooks27
2013-08-10, 02:45 PM
I for one feel much better about the current layout.

Hanuman
2013-08-11, 12:17 AM
Mod the class feature improve oreinomancy so you don't need to cite it indirectly, bold the class feature titles and add type suffixes to them like (Ex), (Su) or (Sp)

Anyone notice a gold/brown colorscheme going on with the poster's avatars?

Gadzooks27
2013-08-11, 03:12 AM
I've got those suffixes on ALL MY CLASS FEATURES. I don't know what you're talking about.

Gadzooks27
2013-08-11, 03:18 AM
Anyone notice a gold/brown colorscheme going on with the poster's avatars?

...How do you mean?

Hanuman
2013-08-12, 10:10 PM
I've got those suffixes on ALL MY CLASS FEATURES. I don't know what you're talking about.
Looking back, gaining a feat may be untitled in terms of class feature where as acting as if you had it would be titled. Also anything that is a feat that scales with your character somehow such as getting x levels in dreamer or having it attribute or skill rank powered.
Looking back even the monk's Unarmed Strike is not considered a titled class feature, which I find very odd considering it's unique to monk and is scaling.



...How do you mean?
Look at your avatar
now back at mine
look at where you are posting
it is brown
look back at me
i am brown/gold/red
look at your robes
they are now brown
look at all the other posters
red, gold, brown
you may not think earthtoned but with old spice natural brick colored deodorant you can smell earthtoned

Gadzooks27
2013-08-13, 07:12 PM
Look at your avatar
now back at mine
look at where you are posting
it is brown
look back at me
i am brown/gold/red
look at your robes
they are now brown
look at all the other posters
red, gold, brown
you may not think earthtoned but with old spice natural brick colored deodorant you can smell earthtoned

I think it shows up differently on your screen. I just looked at my post and Blackmage's side by side... They look the same color of brown. And the robes are the same. Am I doing something wrong?
I don't see the red or gold anywhere.

Gadzooks27
2013-08-15, 12:30 PM
Bottom line right now- does this class need anymore re-working that you guys can see?

Gadzooks27
2013-08-17, 08:25 PM
Aaaaaand done.

Gadzooks27
2013-09-15, 10:29 AM
Bump.
I have to keep this one alive a little longer.

Mr Bojangles
2013-09-16, 12:17 PM
I've not been active in 5 years on this board, but felt the need to sign back on to find out the apparent hidden contents of your class. That's being said as kudos for it seems really interesting.

Back to my point. I can't seem to find any mention on your OP that it has updated Class Features. Much thanks in advance. Looking forward to testing this class out in my personal campaigns.

Zaydos
2013-09-16, 12:31 PM
It's definitely tier 1.

Looking at it, the class is probably stronger than a wizard being a better focused specialist (no requirement to prepare 3 spells of a specific school, can dump Evocation and only one other school, takes a few levels to gain the full +2 spells of each level). It does suffer a bit from only 3 different spells of each level at higher levels (where wizards often end up with 4 or 5 different long duration buffs) but that seems a much smaller disadvantage.

You lose the ability to create scrolls and a metamagic feat and familiar which is probably better than your first 5 levels of class features (and you will most likely PrC out like a wizard afterwards) but I doubt it's enough to make up for better casting than a wizard's.

Gadzooks27
2013-09-17, 01:58 AM
Please explain to me how a dreamer gets better casting than a wizard. A dreamer doesn't have quite the versatility that a wizard does, since a wizard can learn so many more spells outside of Core, as well as any he creates with DM's permission. Wizards can record all of these spells and strategically fill their spell slots as they need, with items like Pearl if Power to get them those extra spells per day. As a wizard, I normally fill my third level spell slot with AT LEAST 1 haste, 1 fly, 1 displacement (highly undervalued), and one offensive or field controlling spell of my choice, though normally I get 2 of one or the other.
Yet no matter how hard a dreamer tries, they get 3 different spells at this level, which stings when you get to level ten and the scenarios and monsters require more resources. "Sorry guys, I'd love to slow this baddy down, but I can't remember how to cast Slow; I can only spam fireball, though he has improved evasion, or I can make all of us capable of flight, right after I cast my one useful haste."
High level spells won't give you this problem, sure. But at high levels, every caster is god-like anyhow.
Another thing to keep in mind is that this class helps you specialize in enchantment and illusionist type spells more than anything. Idk what kind of build you'd have to abuse the spells per day with any other school of spells.

I will agree that a dreamer kicks a sorcerer's ass (without dragon-based source material). But sorcerers are terrible in a practical sense.

What do you mean by "no meta magic or scribe scroll"? Do you mean bonus feats? Just making sure.

Gadzooks27
2013-09-17, 02:12 AM
Mind you, I mean no disrespect. I continue this discussion because if my custom class can be improved or needs reworking, I'd like to know how.

Please keep the feedback coming ^^
I actually enjoy the criticisms more because you saw a homebrew class with some flaws and said, "I could ignore it, since it won't affect me. But it's a neat idea and he should at least know what he's doing that could use improvement."

So thank you, and please elaborate.

Zaydos
2013-09-17, 12:07 PM
As written imagining lets you pick up any sorcerer/wizard spell with nothing to limit it to Core, including ones you research yourself. Note how you listed 3 spells that you prepare with your wizard of any level and that you get 2 of one (this fills up all of your normal spell slots and a pearl of power simply reprepares a spell you had previously prepared). The ability not to have to select which spell slot which spell goes into makes up the loss of 1 unique spell per day and then some. You have better versatility with your high level spell slots at the cost of some with your lower level spell slots, which I even admitted in my first post, and looking at your example of 3rd level slots you'd lose displacement (which is good but something you can easily get by without) for haste in any battle it's useful in, fly when it becomes necessary, and by this level you'd have access to 4th level spells and Greater Mirror Image which makes Displacement feel abandoned and unloved. The other example is just weird since you seem to be using 3rd as your highest level of spell but more unique spells (and spells in general) than either of these would have available at 6th level. At 6th level the wizard has Haste (twice if a transmuter), Fly, and an offensive spell, the dreamer has whichever he wanted for the day (usually Haste) and relies upon a 2nd level spell for direct damage just like the wizard actually has to because of spell slots. At 7th level things change you have whichever 2 work for you this day, and the wizard has 4 but each only once (Haste twice if a transmuter). So it comes to slightly less versatility in a given day vs more power but the class retains the ability to use any spell at any given time and can afford to pick up memento magicka for every pearl of power the wizard buys because the wizard has to spend hundreds to thousands on new spells (depends upon if the DM assumes you can find someone to copy from or if you have to pay for the privelege or if you have to acquire scrolls to copy from) to have more than 4 of a level (or take their first level feat for Collegiate Spellcaster).

And yeah I was referencing the loss of feats.

And over all I'm not saying it's a problem, just that it is very definitely tier 1 and comparable to a wizard. It's interesting because it has certain strengths and weaknesses, but in my play experience the strength outweighs the weakness. So my comment was mostly because people had stated it was tier 2 which the ability to rearrange its spell list on a daily basis prevents with access to the wizard spell list (i.e. it can break the game in a different way every day with the same build).

Zakaroth
2013-09-17, 05:18 PM
This class seems like an excellent PrC concept, an arcane caster (or just sorcerer, as it fits best IMO) who draws his spells from the dream world/imagination. You could have Dreamtelling as a pre-req. feat plus maybe some illusion spells. Set it up so that you could gain access at lvl 5 or so. Maybe focus around effects similar to Shadow Evocation.

In your current setup, to set it a side a bit more from the sorcerer, you could limit the spell list to all spells from the Illusion, Enchantment and Divination schools.