Magic: The Gathering XVIII: Sacrifice a paycheck: Gain ownership of target _____

[Socratov]

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/Planeswalkers.pnghttp://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/AkromaBanner.png
All art by Uncle Festy. Worship him for his god like art skills.
Also, he takes requests. Sometimes. Usually he bites your head off if he isn't in the 'art' mood.

Well, hello, hello, hello and good day yto you here at Giant in the Playground! This is the 18th official Magic: the Gathering thread on Giantitp forums!
This is the place for everything regarding the game - rules questions, your own card creations, decks, reports, rants about recent sets/cards/rules changes, the storyline, favorite cards/colors/sets/characters/pros/articles, the absolute glory/terrible creation that is Elder Dragon Highlander Commander, or any other awesome Magical exploits.
And definitely don't be shy if you're new to the game or think about starting. We would love to bring more players in, and help you get started!

If you want, you can post decks and have them placed here in a list similar to the one below! Shoot me a PM if you're interested and I don't have my Ivory Mask.

Note: This is horribly out of date.
The Deck Gallery:


Mirrinus' "Norg'Creatures:
4 Cloud Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cloud%20Sprite)
4 Spellstutter Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Spellstutter%20Sprite)
4 Pestermite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Pestermite)
3 Thieving Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Thieving%20Sprite)
3 Latchkey Faerie (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Latchkey%20Faerie)
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)

Instants:
4 Mana Leak (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mana%20Leak)
4 Agony Warp (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Agony%20Warp)
3 Rend Flesh (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Rend%20Flesh)
2 Condescend (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Condescend)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Terramorphic%20Expanse)
7 Swamp
12 Island

Sideboard:
2 Mistblade Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mistblade%20Shinobi)
3 Echoing Truth (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Echoing%20Truth)
3 Negate (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Negate)
3 Remove Soul (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Remove%20Soul)
4 Peppersmoke (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Peppersmoke)

The basic strategy is to play evasive creatures with nice CIP abilities, then bounce them with ninja to replay them again, gaining tons of card advantage. Save the instant counters for things you can't handle, like high cost spells that Spellstutter Sprite can't hit, or board-wiping spells. The deck has lots of disruption and can usually play pretty aggressively. Nearly every spell can potentially 2-for-1 the opponent, giving me control of the game thanks to my strong card advantage. It's a very cheap deck to build due to being made entirely of commons, yet I find that it's still a solid deck to play in other casual formats as well. Its biggest weaknesses appear to be board-sweeping spells and pingers, so my sideboard is built to accomidate either of those threats. Peppersmoke handles most pingers and can decimate casual aggro decks. Remove Soul is also good against aggro, while Negate is for control decks that have been popular lately. Echoing Truth is to stop pauper storm decks based on Empty the Warrens, and the Mistblade Shinobi is for keeping midrange creature decks off balance.



Mirrinus' Pauper Mono White ControlDeck: Sarutabaruta (or just call it Pauper Mono-W Control)
Format: MTGO Pauper Classic

Creatures
4 Order of Leitbur (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=159188)
3 Shade of Trokair (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=shade%20of%20trokair)
4 Noble Templar (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Noble%20Templar)

Instants
4 Judge Unworthy (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Judge%20Unworthy)
3 Dawn Charm (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Dawn%20Charm)
3 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
4 Fire at Will (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Fire%20at%20Will)
4 Unmake (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Unmake)

Sorceries
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring)
2 Faith's Fetters (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Faith's%20Fetters)

Lands
20 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Secluded%20Steppe)

Sideboard
4 Circle of Protection: Red (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Circle%20of%20Protection:%20 Red)
1 Circle of Protection: Black (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=circle%20of%20protection:%20 black)
4 Kami of Ancient Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Kami%20of%20Ancient%20Law)
1 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)
4 Relic of Progenitus (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Relic%20of%20Progenitus)

(Note: the circles of protection were common when printed in 7th edition, so they're legal for pauper.)

Anyway, I realized that most decks for pauper are creature-heavy, due to the lack of mass removal. So I built a deck designed to crush aggro strategies. I run a wealth of removal spells, some of which can earn card advantage. My creatures are few, but are versatile and are great both early and late game, oftentimes utilizing my excess mana to the fullest. The Kami of Ancient Law in the sideboard is mostly to switch in against creature-light decks as an early beater, or to replace Holy Light against white decks. I figure that if a deck is playing white, it's likely to be playing white enchantment-based removal like Oblivion Ring or Temporal Isolation, so the Kami would be great at keeping my other creatures clear of these answers.

What I'm still considering, though, is the removal suite. I like Fire at Will for its potential for card advantage, particularly against weenie swarms like Slivers. Unmake is also great simply for the lack of the attack/blocker clause. The Dawn Charms are there mostly for versatility, as I can usually think of a good use for it. I'm not sure if I should be maindecking the Holy Lights, though. So far, they've only been useful against pinger decks, Empty the Warrens, and certain elf builds. However, given that Storm may be one of the best pauper builds, Holy Light affords me with my best chance of trumping Empty the Warrens. But most of all, I'm debating Judge Unworthy. On one hand, having 8 removal spells that require attacking/blocking is kind of restrictive; on the other hand, it's my cheapest removal spell, and my only removal option for turn 2. The Scry is oftentimes a toss-up; getting rid of excess land is great, but I've had instances where I needed to draw another land, but can't put a land on top of my deck with Scry if I want to kill a creature. I guess Temporal Isolation is a possible substitute, but it's pretty lousy in the Silvers matchup, which is perhaps the most common deck played in the pauper casual room as of late.

I'm still debating whether Relic of Progenitus should be in the sideboard; perhaps I could use more aggro options to switch in against creature-light decks, even though those tend to be fewer in number for this format.


Mirrinus' Countersliver
Deck: Pauper UW Countersliver
Format: Extended Pauper

Creatures:
4 Azorius First-wing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97101)
4 Bant Sureblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188975)
4 Deft Duelist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175121)
4 Ethercaste Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179542)
4 Esper Stormblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188968)

Artifacts:
4 Fieldmist Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=183005)

Enchantments:
4 Temporal Isolation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106654)

Instants:
4 Mana Tithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122324)
4 Mana Leak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83160)
3 Remove Soul (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129699)
3 Hindering Light (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=177598)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129881)
7 Island
7 Plains

Countersliver is a classic and effective Magic deck archetype that seeks to win by playing a few cheap, efficient threats to take the early game lead, then using permission and light removal elements to prevent the late-game from coming as you press your advantage. The archetype is named after the original version, which played Crystalline Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5134) as its flagship creature.

Countersliver is a good example of an effective aggro-control deck. Your creatures are weaker than your opponent's best aggro creatures, and your removal and card advantage suite isn't nearly as strong as a dedicated control player's. What you do have, though, is tempo. You have superior early-game creatures to all but the best aggro decks, and you'll be shaving pieces off your opponent's life very quickly while trying to maintain your board advantage. Countersliver especially likes to prey on slower decks. Compare a Countersliver deck to a normal permission control deck. Against a mid-range deck, both are able to stall for several turns with their counterspells. However, while the permission deck is just buying time to play a big finisher, Countersliver will have a guy in play by turn 2, and attacking the opponent relentlessly while stalling for time. In other words, it has a tangible clock in play, which will likely win before the late-game hits.

Countersliver is normally weak against fast aggro decks with superior creatures. However, my personal build contains a few elements that help that matchup. First is the high number of first-striking creatures. Bant Sureblade and Deft Duelist make formidable blockers, easily dispatching lots of popular aggro creatures with high power but low toughness. Deft Duelist is also impossible to burn out of the way, making it a particularly impressive defender. Of course, both are also rather nasty on offense as well. Another nice card in the aggro matchup is Ethercaste Knight. 3 toughness means it can handle many early-game opposing creatures with ease, and it can lend power to my offense without ever having to tap. My favorite starting plays with this deck involve Esper Stormblade on turn 2, followed by Ethercaste Knight on turn 3 with one land up for Mana Tithe. I get to swing for 4 points of flying starting on turn 3, which can lead to a turn 7 win. With Ethercaste Knight blocking on the ground and a slew of countermagic and removal, I'm likely to win a damage race with just those two creatures.

The key to playing this deck is to not overextend with your creatures, and to keep mana open for counters available as often as possible, even if you aren't actually holding a counter. Exalted lets you finish games quickly without having to play many additional creatures. I prefer my fliers for attacking while keeping the first strikers back for defense to win the damage race against aggro. Of course, if you have a clear creature advantage, by all means attack en masse! Just be sure to have countermagic on hand in case they drop a big creature or removal spell. The good thing about this deck is that practically every single spell costs just 2 mana or less (I don't count the borderposts, as I usually pay their alternate cost), which means by turn 4 you can feasibly drop another threat and still have Mana Leak or Remove Soul ready. The deck desperately wants to hit UW by turn 2 (an opening hand that can't do this should be mulliganed), but with 4 Terramorphic Expanses and 4 Borderposts, that shouldn't be too hard to do, at least in my testing thus far.

If you want a sideboard, I would recommend trying out Steel of the Godhead (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158749). Against decks light on removal but heavy on aggro, this card is a total beating that almost ensures victory in the damage race. Just keep in mind that you can't enchant your Azorius First-wings or Deft Duelists. In such a matchups where I'd want Steel of the Godhead, such as against aggressive red decks, I'd probably swap out the griffins for Vedalken Outlander (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185141).


Shas'aia Toriia's Orzhov Control
Creatures (13)
4x Divinity of Pride (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/86.html)
4x Graveborn Muse (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/145.html)
2x Shimian Specter (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/76.html)
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Artifacts (1)
1x Sword of Light and Shadow (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/149.html)

Instants (4)
4x Mortify (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana Vess (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/121.html)

Sorceries (16)
4x Demonic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/al/en/13.html)
4x Vindicate (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/126.html) (substituting in a couple Oblivion Rings (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/34.html)until I can afford a playset)
4x Gerrard's Verdict (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/82.html)
2x Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/61.html)
2x Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)

Land (24)
4x Godless Shrine (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/157.html)
4x Fetid Heath (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/176.html)
4x Caves of Koilos (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/350.html)
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/283.html)
1x Eiganjo Castle (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/275.html)
2x Orzhova, Church of Deals (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/162.html)
3x Flagstones of Trokair (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/272.html)
2x Forbidding Watchtower (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/352.html)
2x Swamp (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/238.html)
1x Plains (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/283.html)

To start off with this deck, you want to either strip their hand away with Gerrard's Veridct or search for something good with Demonic Tutor. Once you have Graveborn muse in play, just start accumalating card advantage. If they try to attack, prevent the damage with Oriss, or block with Forbidding Watchtower. Finish off the game with Liliana Vess or Divinity of Pride. Above all, though, don't be afraid to Wrath often. With 4 wrath effects and 6 tutors, you can always get more.

Lastly, there is a soft lock in this deck. See if you can find what it is. :smallamused:



MountainKing's UBR Elemental Shenanigans:

Creatures:
Supreme Exemplar (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/53.html) x2
Mulldrifter (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/76.html) x3
Mournwhelk (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/127.html) x3
Shriekmaw (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/139.html) x3
Spitebellows (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/105.html) x3
Inner-Flame Acolyte (http://magiccards.info/jvc/en/41.html) x3
Stingscourger (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/107.html) x3

Artifacts:
Proteus Staff (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/230.html) x3
Cauldron of Souls (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/248.html) x3
Cloudstone Curio (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/257.html) x3
Armillary Sphere (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/134.html) x3

Sorceries:
Heat Shimmer (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/175.html) x2

Instants:
Peel from Reality (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/61.html) x2
Turn to Mist (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/155.html) x4

Lands:
Basic Swamp x6
Basic Mountain x7
Basic Island x7

Sideboard (aka the Experiment Pile):
Thrumming Stone (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/142.html)
Coalition Relic (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/161.html)
Cruel Ultimatum (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/164.html) x3
River Kelpie (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/49.html) x2
Heat Shimmer
Mana Echoes (http://magiccards.info/on/en/218.html) x2
Dawn of the Dead (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/59.html)
Tar Fiend (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/89.html) x2
Footbottom Feast (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/115.html) x3

The basic premise of the deck is to use the triggered come into play or leaves play effects on creatures, repeatedly, in order to bring about an effective soft lock on the game through denial. This is achieved through taking two keywords abilities (Evoke and Persist)... and breaking them soundly over your knee.

The core of the deck is the interaction between Cauldron of Souls (the only card in the deck that gives creatures Persist) and Elemental creatures with Evoke alternative casting costs. In response to the Evoke's triggered effect, you tap Cauldron of Souls to give the Evoked creature Persist. It leaves play, then returns to play, causing its triggered come into play ability to go on the stack a second time, for no additional mana cost.

Example: If I evoke a Mulldrifter for 2U, when it comes into play, I draw two cards. Since I paid the Evoke cost, the triggered effect goes on the stack. I give it Persist via Cauldron of Souls, and when it comes into play a second time, I draw two more cards.

Example 2: The interaction between Spitebellows and Cauldron of Souls is fundamentally the same, except that the creature's ability triggers when it leaves play, rather than comes into play. However, when Persist brings Spitebellows back into play, it has a zero toughness courtesy of its -1/-1 counter from Persist, sending it cheerfully back to the graveyard a second time, allowing for either 12 damage to be done to one creature, or 6 damage to be done to two separate creatures.

The typical play of the deck leaves it feeling like its ramping a little slowly. Turns 1-5, you'll probably only have played an Armillary Sphere, Cloudstone Curio, Cauldron of Souls, and land. ***NOTE*** This deck likes its mana, and digging up lands with the Armillary Sphere is crucial.

Once turn 6 hits, however, you'll be causing some serious hurt, having surprisingly rapid, effective tools at your disposal during your turn. Mournwhelk empties your opponent's hand, Shriekmaw and Spitebellows tear down your opponent's creatures, while Stingscourger stalls out their creatures. Supreme Exemplar is the only huge beater in the deck, though clearing the opposing board, casting a Spitebellows (not Evoking), and then giving it +2/+0 and Haste via Inner-Flame Acolyte (if not +4/+0) can give you a suitable beater as well. Otherwise, your damage comes from lightweight, evasive creatures like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter.

This deck isn't especially meant to play against terribly competitive players, but it *can* perform against moderately fast decks. The difference is that it moves slightly slower, and loses out on creatures, because instead of holding on to your Evoke creatures, you'll be playing them in to deal with threats on board. I've got a list of cards that I personally intend to use to tinker with the deck even further, but I'll leave the deck *as is* for the purpose of posting it. I want people to be able to tinker with it, and the deck *does* work well in its current form.

The deck also has a number of specific weaknesses, none of which should be terribly worried about. It's meant to be a fun deck... for you. It won't be fun for them. :smallbiggrin:


Maho-Tsukai's The Black Plague, a deck for multiplayer
Deck:
Lands:
3x Cabal Coffers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205421)
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=131005)
20x Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=259283)

Creatures:
2x Pestilence Demon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193431)
4x Stuffy Doll (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116724)
4x Cemetary Gate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2914)
4x Reassembling Skeleton (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=226565)

Enchantments:
4x Pestilence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21149)
4x Circle of Affliction (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126803)

Sorceries/Instants:
2x Consume Spirit (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=244249)
4x Diabolic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221519)
1x Demonic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202628)
2x Bubbling Muck (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15179)
4x Dark Ritual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221510)
1x Culling the Weak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=6085)

Description:
This is one deck that will make you absolutely hated in multiplayer. It's a mono-black deck that focuses on using the combination of Pestilence + Circle of Affliction (set to Black) to lock down the game by wiping the board every turn and kill your opponent(s) all at the same time.

This deck acts very similar to the old school W/B decks that pared Pestilence with Circle of Protection: Black and Pro Black creatures like White Knight. However, due to the printing of cards like Reassembling Skeleton, Stuffy Doll and Circle of Affliction white this deck no longer needs white to run properly. Mono Black now has enough cards to emulate the white cards that this kind of deck used to rely on and by using only black you have more mana to pour into your main win condition, pestilence

As for how the deck should be played, it's really a combination of combo and control, leaning heavily towards combo. As stated before, pestilence is your main wincon, as it can burn all players for damage continually. However, to prevent your own death, circle of affliction(set to black) is used in tandem with pestilence, the one life gained offsetting the burn from pestilence, while burning your opponent more in the process. As a result you goal should be to assemble this combo as soon as possible, using your defensively-minded creatures and removal from pestilence itself and twin consume spirits to stall out while you use your various tutors to assemble all the cards you need.

The real beauty of this deck, though, is that pestilence also hits all creatures, meaning that each time you burn your opponent your also wiping his board clean of threats, essentially locking down any deck that tries to win with creatures. However, pestilence dies when you have no creatures, so you have to play creatures that can survive the enchantment. Cemetery Gate has protection from black. Reassembling Skeleton can revive himself after pestilence wipes him off the board. Stuffy Doll is indestructible....and as mentioned before all of them are strong defensive walls that can stall for time if you don't have a pestilence in play.

As for the rest of the cards, most of them are devoted to gaining tons of black mana that can be poured into pestilence. One thing this deck tries to do is maximizing Pestilence by providing lots of ways to gain extra mana to pour into it. Dark Ritual is an old standby that's great for this kind of deck while bubbling muck essentially doubles your mana for a turn. This deck features the infamous all-star of black mana gain, Cabal Coffers which can make ridiculous amounts of mana, and Urborg makes this even more ridiculous. Culling the Weak is like a stronger dark ritual with a drawback....that happens to play well with Reassembling Skeleton.

Consume Spirit provides a "finisher" as well as a way to pad your life from the times you may have had to use pestilence to wipe the board without a circle of affliction to prevent it's self-burn. It can also double as removal in a pinch, too. Also, if you find that you just need something really big and scary to beat face with, Pestilence demon comes ready to serve you, and can double as pestilence #5-6 too.

The main thing you should remember in this deck is that while the combo is nice, you should not be a slave to it. If you have a pestilence in play but no circle you should not be afraid to wipe the board and eat some damage yourself. Losing a bit of life to end the thread of a creature hoard coming your way is a worthwhile trade, and one that could save your life in the long run.

Please include lots of info on how to play the deck so that others can partake in the fun that is whatever deck you have destroyed the Multiverse with or help suggest other cards to increase the awesomeness contained in your 60 (or more) cards.
This list has been maintained by Squark, tgva, Johnny Blade, Shas, and Duos in the past.
Also, if anyone wants to drop/update any of these decks, let me know.

previous thread: Magic: The Gathering XVI: This Thread Banned in Modern (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278810)

Edit: from sunday on wI'll be gone for a week, so if you want to reach me, have some patience for I will get back on it after that week (yay a week sailing and partying :smallcool::smallbiggrin::smallamused:)

Edit 2: OK, but I did use my usual numbered thread greeting inspired by Stephen Fry. I also kept the reference to the previous thread

[Justyn]

So, I've been working on a sliver deck (Yes, I still dislike the art direction, I just want to get back into an old hobby), and while I haven't gotten a chance to play test it, I'd like to try and get a bit of critique if anyone would be willing?


Artifacts:
Door of Destinies (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152526) x2

Creatures:
Battle Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370639) x2
Blur Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370593) x4
Megantic Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370794) x2
Predatory Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370745) x4
Sentinel Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370813) x4
Thorncaster Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370820) x2

Enchantments:
Parallel Lives (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=249662) x2

Lands:
Forest x5
Plains x5
Mountain x5
Gruul Guildgate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=369040) x3
Selesnya Guildgate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=369018) x3

Sorceries/Instants:
Burst of Strength (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366304) x4
Druid's Deliverance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=289215) x4
Hive Stirrings (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370817) x4
Swift Justice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265416) x4


A few preemptive responses to "why isn't ____ here?"s
Boros Guildgate: I only have one copy, and I plan to add them if I can get my hands on a couple more.
Manaweft Sliver: I have not been able to get my hands on any of them.

[Dumbledore lives]

So, I've been working on a sliver deck (Yes, I still dislike the art direction, I just want to get back into an old hobby), and while I haven't gotten a chance to play test it, I'd like to try and get a bit of critique if anyone would be willing?


Artifacts:
Door of Destinies (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152526) x2

Creatures:
Battle Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370639) x2
Blur Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370593) x4
Megantic Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370794) x2
Predatory Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370745) x4
Sentinel Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370813) x4
Thorncaster Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370820) x2

Enchantments:
Parallel Lives (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=249662) x2

Lands:
Forest x5
Plains x5
Mountain x5
Gruul Guildgate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=369040) x3
Selesnya Guildgate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=369018) x3

Sorceries/Instants:
Burst of Strength (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366304) x4
Druid's Deliverance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=289215) x4
Hive Stirrings (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370817) x4
Swift Justice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265416) x4


A few preemptive responses to "why isn't ____ here?"s
Boros Guildgate: I only have one copy, and I plan to add them if I can get my hands on a couple more.
Manaweft Sliver: I have not been able to get my hands on any of them.

The Parallel Lives I feel are bad in the deck because they only affect hive stirrings. That is four cards out of the sixty, and only affect it if you cast it first. I'd take them out. Same can be said for druid's deliverance. It's a fog, true, but I feel like the deck is more aggresive and fog is unneeded. I'd also replace the burst of strength with giant growths, just to get some more punch. You also don't see to have the red one drop sliver. Can't remember it's name, should look into getting them, give your whole side first strike.

[Thanatos 51-50]

A friend just bragged to me that we won first place in a "Modern PTQ" down in Rhode Island yesterday.
I find this claim dubious. I'm sure that's the kind of thing I can pull on the Internet to verify, though.

How do I do that?

AND! Just for more content that isn't me being a Suspicious Sam:
Grindy Decklist of Grindiness (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/consuming-psyche/)

[Narkis]

Seems to me that this is just empty bragging. PTQs are always on weekends, so it couldn't have been yesterday. And the current PTQ season is Standard, so it couldn't have been Modern.

But you can verify it: This (https://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/events.aspx?x=mtg/event/protour/theros13-invitations) is the list of everyone who got an invitation for Pro Tour Theros, which includes every PTQ winner in the world. Scroll to the end of it, and check if your friend's name is there.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Yup, like I thought, doesn't check out.
I cn't even find a PTQ in Rhode Island.

Maybe I'm remembering the empty bragging incorrectly. I'ma assume that for now.

[Litewarior]

So, I've been working on a sliver deck (Yes, I still dislike the art direction, I just want to get back into an old hobby), and while I haven't gotten a chance to play test it, I'd like to try and get a bit of critique if anyone would be willing?


Artifacts:
Door of Destinies (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152526) x2

Creatures:
Battle Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370639) x2
Blur Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370593) x4
Megantic Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370794) x2
Predatory Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370745) x4
Sentinel Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370813) x4
Thorncaster Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370820) x2

Enchantments:
Parallel Lives (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=249662) x2

Lands:
Forest x5
Plains x5
Mountain x5
Gruul Guildgate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=369040) x3
Selesnya Guildgate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=369018) x3

Sorceries/Instants:
Burst of Strength (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366304) x4
Druid's Deliverance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=289215) x4
Hive Stirrings (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370817) x4
Swift Justice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265416) x4


A few preemptive responses to "why isn't ____ here?"s
Boros Guildgate: I only have one copy, and I plan to add them if I can get my hands on a couple more.
Manaweft Sliver: I have not been able to get my hands on any of them.

You definitely want Bonescythe Sliver, easily one of the best finisher slivers. Adding 4 Cavern of Souls would also fix your mana and make the matchups against control decks much better. Galerider Sliver is probably one of the best slivers in M14 as well, giving all your slivers flying is often the same as giving them unblockability.

Most of your instants and sorceries as well as Parallel Lives are not particularly good. Take them out and replace them with more slivers. Hive stirrings is also a bit suspect since it doesn't do much by itself, but it does give two slivers, so you can test it out.

[Sith_Happens]

The blank really doesn't look good with the underlining of thread links. How about "deck?"

[Justyn]

The Parallel Lives I feel are bad in the deck because they only affect hive stirrings. That is four cards out of the sixty, and only affect it if you cast it first. I'd take them out. Same can be said for druid's deliverance. It's a fog, true, but I feel like the deck is more aggresive and fog is unneeded. I'd also replace the burst of strength with giant growths, just to get some more punch. You also don't see to have the red one drop sliver. Can't remember it's name, should look into getting them, give your whole side first strike.

I actually do have Striking Slivers in it, I just didn't list them for some reason... I just neglected to do so. Also, Druid's Deliverance is effected by Parallel Lives (which also effects itself so long as I have two of them, so if I have both of them, I get eight token from one Hive Stirrings) as well as long as I use the Populate effect on a sliver token.

[Socratov]

The blank really doesn't look good with the underlining of thread links. How about "deck?"

Meh, it would spoil the joke, besides, it's perfectly visible in thread...

[tgva8889]

You can actually edit the first post if you want, I just ask that you keep all the special first-post things (the banners, the list of decks, the links to all the old threads, and the other useful things in the second post)

[Thanatos 51-50]

So, I've been working on EDH Ideas. This (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/zeds-walkin-on-yer-swamps/) is all I have so far.

The strategy should be fairly obvious, but in case you don't want to click over:
The name of the game is Grixis Zombie Swampwalk. Blue and Red mostly exist for support and splashing in multi-coloured creatures so far, as well as turning the opponent's lands into swamps. I think I have a dozen or so ways to temporarily or permanently give me swampwalk openings, and a few less ways to give all my zombies swampwalk.
There's a few zombies in there -- namely the ones with Infect -- that I'm not sure fit in. Infect is a nice secondary win condition, but I'm not sure I should include it if isn't super-reliable.

[tgva8889]

I assume you have Zombie Trailblazer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=34819), because that card is really awesome. I assume your general is Sol'Kanar the Swamp King (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109723)?

[Thanatos 51-50]

Sorry, it seems I forgot to link it up, but yes, those are both true statements.

That has been fixed. Link should be active now. (I may have gone crazy with the manabase, up to and including putting Cardboard Gold in the decklist)

[Shadow of the Sun]

I'm really interested in how the Magic World Championship Modern games are going- the main deck being played is UWR Control rather than Pod.

Pretty interesting.

[tgva8889]

Immediate cards I would cut:
Bladewing the Risen really doesn't work very well with your deck. If you want a powerful Zombie to play, there are better options than Bladewing.
Grave Scrabbler doesn't do anything. It only returns a creature if you are able to Madness it, and you have no ways in your deck to discard it yourself, making it highly unreliable.
I'm not a fan of cards like Carnophage which are just small creatures and don't do anything else. You're going to get outclassed, and the value of a small early creature when your opponents start at 40 is really not worth it. There's much better than that. Similarly, I would remove Drowned, Festering Goblin, Grixis Grimblade, Contagious Nim, and Null Champion for simply being weak cards that you could replace pretty easily.
Similarly, there's better options than Orchish Farmer to make your opponent's lands into Swamps, and I don't even think you need this many. I would suggest non-creature options, as creatures will spend more time being dead.
Because none of your creatures have native Flying, I would cut Favorable Winds. It's really unlikely to do anything at all and there are far, far better options if you want to give your team a nice bonus.
Feast of the Unicorn and Firebreathing are just asking for you to get card advantaged. I would suggest that instead of using Auras like these which don't provide any advantage, you choose Auras which do give you some advantage or use Equipment, which don't die if the equipped creature bites the dust.
Rupture is a far worse Wrath effect than the wide variety of options you have available. If this is the kind of effect you really want, I would choose something else.

Suggested inclusions:
If you want your opponent to have a lot of Swamps, you really should be playing Expedition Map (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193405) to search for Urborg.
I don't know why you aren't playing Cabal Coffers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205421), but you should be.
Filth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=33722) fits perfectly into this kind of deck. If you're going to be playing a lot of creatures that don't have native Swampwalk, this guy will help you out a lot.
Lashwrithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214359) is a nasty powerup and a strong threat for this deck. Since you're going to be getting Urborg into play a lot (it's really the best way to make everything Swamps), Lashwrithe will often give you a huge power boost.
Nightcreep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107415) actually seems really cool. Sometimes it will let you kill your opponents with a swampwalking army, other times it will Time Walk the mono-Green player. I think this is definitely worth trying out.
Entrails Feaster (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=10699) is an awesome cheap Zombie that has profound effects on the game. No one ever wants to kill it, but it eats people's graveyards. Yum!
Similarly, Withered Wretch (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205411) eats graveyards and prevents graveyard shenanigans from being used against you while also being a good Zombie with some aggressive uses with your Lords.
Anathemancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179538) deals so much damage in this format, and the Unearth lets you basically flashback this massive damage spell. Plus he's a cheap Zombie for early aggression.
Balthor the Defiled (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=20842) is huge value, allowing you to reanimate an entire army.
Corpse Harvester (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205419) generates some pretty good value if your creatures are going to die or want to be sacrificed anyways.
Deathbringer Thoctar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180622) is actually very powerful and worth a try.
Fleshbag Marauder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247153) lets you kill quite a few creatures.
Syphon Flesh (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=233218) is also helpful and and Cruel Revival (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205367) is pretty good as well.
Grave Defiler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=27662) seems really sweet.

And I'm going to stop suggesting cards, and instead suggest you use a card search engine like Gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Default.aspx) or the TCG Player search (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/all_magic_sets.asp) function.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I actually used Gatherer to find a *lot* of those cards, but yes, they do exist mostly from memory.
Thank you for your suggestions. I will almost definitely be implementing a fair few.

[Pendulous]

From the last thread:


Oh yeah, I made a deck. (http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/778691) Playtesting has confirmed humans to be supremely OP. Any comments?

I prefer white/red over white/black. You get Kessig Malcontents (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240114), and you can just flicker him or whatever with white. Plus Riot Ringleader (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=239987), even Rage Thrower (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222921) if you want.

[Lea Plath]

So, I've been working on EDH Ideas. This (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/zeds-walkin-on-yer-swamps/) is all I have so far.

The strategy should be fairly obvious, but in case you don't want to click over:
The name of the game is Grixis Zombie Swampwalk. Blue and Red mostly exist for support and splashing in multi-coloured creatures so far, as well as turning the opponent's lands into swamps. I think I have a dozen or so ways to temporarily or permanently give me swampwalk openings, and a few less ways to give all my zombies swampwalk.
There's a few zombies in there -- namely the ones with Infect -- that I'm not sure fit in. Infect is a nice secondary win condition, but I'm not sure I should include it if isn't super-reliable.

Lots of cards I don't like here, can show you my take on it.

Do you have a back up win plan?

[Thanatos 51-50]

Lots of cards I don't like here, can show you my take on it.

Do you have a back up win plan?

Go ahead and hit me with 'im.

Also: no.

[Jormengand]

From the last thread:



I prefer white/red over white/black. You get Kessig Malcontents (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240114), and you can just flicker him or whatever with white. Plus Riot Ringleader (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=239987), even Rage Thrower (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222921) if you want.

Rage thrower might work. I was just thinking that:

A) Kessig Malcontents don't really fit in with my idea of getting all my human tokens and elder cathars killed, because there won't be enough left to use it.
B) +1/+0 is not enough when I'm aiming to get cards to make all my creatures at least +5/+5
C) X Necro is essentially my cheap anti-fieldwipe which basically ends up being "Fill Field With Zombies For Long Enough For Me To Set Back Up." Rage thrower would only really work if I had enough to one-shot the opponent.
D) I can no longer shout "VINDICATE" at the top of my voice with good cause. I don't get vindicate.

What might be a good idea, though, is to go "I have plateaus and badlands" and stick a rage thrower in just as another way of screwing with boardwiping.

[CN the Logos]

So, I've been working on EDH Ideas. This (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/zeds-walkin-on-yer-swamps/) is all I have so far.

The strategy should be fairly obvious, but in case you don't want to click over:
The name of the game is Grixis Zombie Swampwalk. Blue and Red mostly exist for support and splashing in multi-coloured creatures so far, as well as turning the opponent's lands into swamps. I think I have a dozen or so ways to temporarily or permanently give me swampwalk openings, and a few less ways to give all my zombies swampwalk.
There's a few zombies in there -- namely the ones with Infect -- that I'm not sure fit in. Infect is a nice secondary win condition, but I'm not sure I should include it if isn't super-reliable.

A few thoughts, apart from what's already been said:

First thing's first. Why Sol'kanar? He doesn't benefit from any tribal zombie buffs, and while mediocre evasion is better than no evasion, in practice there will be times when you just can't get the cards needed to make swampwalk relevant. If you want to play Grixis Zombies EDH, Sedris (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175111) and Thraximundar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180595) are both zombies, both solid creatures in their own right, and both fairly affordable cash-wise (current TCGplayer mean price for Sedris is $2.07, while Thraximundar's mean price is $9.31). I personally think Sedris's mechanics are more evocative of a Night of the Living Dead-style zombie uprising, but either would work.

Two, I keep glancing back at your enchantments to confirm that yes, you are playing an EDH zombie deck with blue in it, but you aren't playing Rooftop Storm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=227287). This is another cheap, thematic card that would go well in your deck. It does enable at least one infinite combo with Grimgrim and Gravecrawler, but since Grimgrin isn't your general and the combo's not an instant win anyway, I don't see it being too much of a problem.

Three, you need more tutors. One of Black's biggest advantages in EDH is its ability to tutor without setting conditions on what it can find. The ability to make your deck into a toolbox is incredibly powerful, and you should exploit it. You don't seem to have much in the way of card draw either. There is nothing more depressing then playing blue and not being able to draw what you need (trust me, I've done it). Playing Dimir gives you access to what is probably the best card advantage in the game; wasting it seems like a sin.

Four, in creature heavy black deck, mass reanimation is your friend. It's hidden deep in the EDH rules, but you are actually required to have a copy of Patriarch's Bidding (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=26747) in every Black tribal deck you make. :smalltongue: And a well-timed Living Death (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247416) can sweep your opponents' boards and return all your guys to the field at the same time. I would also consider breaking theme slightly to add Sheoldred (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214382); not only is she amazing card advantage if she actually stays on the field for longer than a turn or so, she also has swampwalk! Synergy! Some single target reanimation (to bring back key creatures) might be good too, if you can find a place for it.

Finally, when I'm playing creature-heavy beatdown decks, I tend to want to add a few artifacts and/or enchantments that buff my whole field. If you do go with Sedris and/or add some reanimation you could totally play Eldrazi Monument (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193398). Flying indestructible zombie Cthulhus are hilarious. Akroma's Memorial (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=279712) is also great, although it's pretty much the exact opposite of fluffy. Maybe you could get someone to make an alternate art proxy, with the memorial wrecked and covered in graffiti reading "Phage Lives!"?

Those are my initial thoughts. Take them with a grain of salt, since they are at least partially based on what I regularly deal with in my playgroup. Hope this was of some help. :smallsmile:

[Seatbelt]

Akroma's Memorial's Flavor Text is "No Rest, No Mercy."

Sounds like Zombies to me.

Also while I agree Sheoldred is amazing and you should run her, I find that I usually don't get to keep her on the board long enough to get to my next upkeep. She's one of those card effects that actually says "before the beginning of your next upkeep the first player able to cast a removal spell targeting Sheoldred must do so."

or alternately "Any player may discard a removal spell; sacrifice Sheoldred."

[tgva8889]

Sol'kanar is good, however, because a) no one plays him, b) all your opponents will have Swamps, as that's what the deck is designed to do and c) you get lots of coolness points for playing Sol'kanar because he's an old favorite, emphasis on old. The value of gaining life is not to be denied, either, especially if you're playing a deck that might inspire some ire since you're going to be attacking people early and often. Thrax and Sedris are certainly good cards, though, and you could easily slot them into your 99 if you weren't going to play them as your Commander.

[Seatbelt]

Almost done sorting out my small collection (One 4-sleeve box and one 1-sleeve box) - with the goal of limiting myself to 4 or less of any given non-rare card from any given set, and putting the rest in a box to liquidate at GenCon for about 8 dollars.


Sorting Ravnica Block is miserable. In the time it took me to sort Ravnica Block I've sorted almost every card from every set I played in since M11.

[CN the Logos]

Akroma's Memorial's Flavor Text is "No Rest, No Mercy."

Sounds like Zombies to me.

Akroma's loathing of the mono black Phage aside, it does sort of work, I suppose. :smalltongue:


Also while I agree Sheoldred is amazing and you should run her, I find that I usually don't get to keep her on the board long enough to get to my next upkeep. She's one of those card effects that actually says "before the beginning of your next upkeep the first player able to cast a removal spell targeting Sheoldred must do so."

or alternately "Any player may discard a removal spell; sacrifice Sheoldred."

This is absolutely true. However, I've found that being able to dictate the flow of the game by saying "use your removal or sweeper to get rid of this creature now, or be crushed under the weight of my combined reanimation/stax effect" can be invaluable. The worst case scenario is that Sheoldred immediately eats a kill spell/sweeper/counterspell that your other creatures no longer have to deal with. One for one trades aren't great in multiplayer EDH, but presumably you'll be making that trade when you can afford to do so. If there's a player or two that can't kill Sheoldred sitting between you and the one who can, the trade becomes better, since she'll eat one or more creatures and a spell in the act of dying. If Sheoldred actually makes it to your turn, that's just gravy. Plus, black has plenty of reanimation so you can force this scenario multiple times if you like. It's a damn good card.


Sol'kanar is good, however, because a) no one plays him, b) all your opponents will have Swamps, as that's what the deck is designed to do and c) you get lots of coolness points for playing Sol'kanar because he's an old favorite, emphasis on old.

No one plays Wood Elemental (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wood%20elemental) either. That doesn't mean you should do it to be different. :smallyuk: Really though, Sol'kanar isn't bad. My main quibble is that he has nothing to do with zombies in either the flavor or the mechanics sense. He adds nothing to the other zombies you're playing, and any effects you have that specifically buff your zombies do nothing for him.

Fair point about the deck running enough cards to make swampwalking Sol'kanar a viable plan, but I still think either of the others would be better. As it stands now, I didn't see a lot of things in the deck that make Sol'kanar bigger, and at 5/5 he needs five attacks to eliminate someone with general damage. That's less than ideal. Honestly, I think with all the swampwalk facilitating enchantments in the deck currently, it could be turned into a pretty cool Voltron-style deck, but if he decides to go that route, I believe he's better off cutting some creatures and replacing the ones that are left with higher quality creatures that can take over Voltron duties if Sol'kanar gets shuffled into the deck or becomes too expensive to cast. Which would probably mean ditching the zombie theme. I think both Grixis Zombie Hordes and Swamp Thing Voltron sound like fun and flavorful decks; I just think doing both well at the same time would be difficult.


The value of gaining life is not to be denied, either, especially if you're playing a deck that might inspire some ire since you're going to be attacking people early and often. Thrax and Sedris are certainly good cards, though, and you could easily slot them into your 99 if you weren't going to play them as your Commander.

Life gain is fantastic when you have black card draw that can turn it into card advantage. There are much better options for it than gaining one life per black spell cast though. If you're already building around Sol'kanar, it's a nice bonus, but not a reason to play him over another general by itself.

[Codyage]

Hello! This is my first time here to this thread, so I apologize if I am doing anything wrong.

I have recently been rebuilding my old mill deck, and have been gathering various cards for a while. However, I have come to a conundrum that I need help with.

It is Black Blue mill, and the main thing I am trying to work on is, to exile, or not to exile.

I have cards that I have been thinking about using, Lazav Dimir Mastermind, Consuming Aberration, wight of precient six, undead alchemist, among other things. However, they really work when cards are being sent to the graveyard. I have no problem with milling my opponent and using those abilities, however testing them out, I realized I need to sacrifice a mechanic my deck has. Exile.

The main thing is, my friends in the current area, have decks they have built to get around my regular old mill, and use it to help them, or bypass it completely. Some of the decks can help them pick their choosing, or give them field advantage(Dredge), or be ineffective as they get to reshuffle their graveyards(Eldrazi). These decks, make a non exile mill deck not as powerful as I hope. Now, against regular decks, I mill just fine, however it is these other kinds of decks that hurt me.

So I would some overall help, maybe some cards that can help me. I am trying to build(restore) a black blue mill deck, and I would just like some peoples thoughts on if stacking up the opponents graveyards with creatures and other things is a good idea. Or if I should not be picky, and exile all the cards, so they can't use them, and I don't need to worry about them.

If I exile, my deck might be able to handle, a large amount of opponents. However, without that Exile, their are a few decks that my counter me.

[Lhurgyof]

I was wondering what to pull from my deck for Strip Mine...

Also, any other advice is welcome.

Karador Deck (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/karador-etb-chieftain/)!

[Seatbelt]

Hello! This is my first time here to this thread, so I apologize if I am doing anything wrong.

I have recently been rebuilding my old mill deck, and have been gathering various cards for a while. However, I have come to a conundrum that I need help with.

It is Black Blue mill, and the main thing I am trying to work on is, to exile, or not to exile.

I have cards that I have been thinking about using, Lazav Dimir Mastermind, Consuming Aberration, wight of precient six, undead alchemist, among other things. However, they really work when cards are being sent to the graveyard. I have no problem with milling my opponent and using those abilities, however testing them out, I realized I need to sacrifice a mechanic my deck has. Exile.

The main thing is, my friends in the current area, have decks they have built to get around my regular old mill, and use it to help them, or bypass it completely. Some of the decks can help them pick their choosing, or give them field advantage(Dredge), or be ineffective as they get to reshuffle their graveyards(Eldrazi). These decks, make a non exile mill deck not as powerful as I hope. Now, against regular decks, I mill just fine, however it is these other kinds of decks that hurt me.

So I would some overall help, maybe some cards that can help me. I am trying to build(restore) a black blue mill deck, and I would just like some peoples thoughts on if stacking up the opponents graveyards with creatures and other things is a good idea. Or if I should not be picky, and exile all the cards, so they can't use them, and I don't need to worry about them.

If I exile, my deck might be able to handle, a large amount of opponents. However, without that Exile, their are a few decks that my counter me.

Maybe targeted exile effects might be useful to remove problem cards from graveyards. They can't dredge if you exile that thing to gain 3 life or whatever.

[Fable Wright]

Hello! This is my first time here to this thread, so I apologize if I am doing anything wrong.

I have recently been rebuilding my old mill deck, and have been gathering various cards for a while. However, I have come to a conundrum that I need help with.

It is Black Blue mill, and the main thing I am trying to work on is, to exile, or not to exile.

I have cards that I have been thinking about using, Lazav Dimir Mastermind, Consuming Aberration, wight of precient six, undead alchemist, among other things. However, they really work when cards are being sent to the graveyard. I have no problem with milling my opponent and using those abilities, however testing them out, I realized I need to sacrifice a mechanic my deck has. Exile.

The main thing is, my friends in the current area, have decks they have built to get around my regular old mill, and use it to help them, or bypass it completely. Some of the decks can help them pick their choosing, or give them field advantage(Dredge), or be ineffective as they get to reshuffle their graveyards(Eldrazi). These decks, make a non exile mill deck not as powerful as I hope. Now, against regular decks, I mill just fine, however it is these other kinds of decks that hurt me.

So I would some overall help, maybe some cards that can help me. I am trying to build(restore) a black blue mill deck, and I would just like some peoples thoughts on if stacking up the opponents graveyards with creatures and other things is a good idea. Or if I should not be picky, and exile all the cards, so they can't use them, and I don't need to worry about them.

If I exile, my deck might be able to handle, a large amount of opponents. However, without that Exile, their are a few decks that my counter me.

Yixlid Jailer. Keeps the cards in the graveyard silent, and keeps them in there. Legendary hit the graveyard and don't shuffle themselves back in, Dredge is hit even harder in that its main ability is now turned off, and it's a Zombie Wizard to boot, making it great for Undead Alchemist and Lich Lord of Unx. Withered Wretch is not quite as good, but it's damage control for those cards that really start to get out of hand when you don't have a Jailer out.

Lhurgyof (have you considered going to the name change thread to fix that presumed typo?): How are Forbidden Orchard and Horizon Canopy working out for you? Barring that, you can probably just take a basic swamp out for it.

[Kiren]

Hey!

I just started to get into Magic after playing Planeswalker 2013-2014.) I have been working on a Primarily White Mana, Human Token army deck of sorts for the Modern Bracket. I wasn't without any cards at all though, as I have two Fifth Dawn deck. Mirrodin's core will help with any other mana color I will need in my deck; however, I have yet to playtest what I have so far. It's not yet worth mentioning.

(For the record, there is technically a Magic card titled ______) Check the Unhinged set!)

[tgva8889]

No one plays Wood Elemental (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wood%20elemental) either. That doesn't mean you should do it to be different. :smallyuk:

Are we talking about Commander? This is the format where people design decks specifically to show them off and where the goal is actually explicitly not to win but to look cool doing whatever it is you're doing. Sure, no one plays bad cards, but Sol'kanar is far from Wood Elemental in bad and in fact actually functions pretty well and is completely reasonable.

Not every Commander deck is designed around its Commander. Many Commander decks aren't even designed to ever cast the darn thing, and many are not super-slaves to the theme. Commander is a format where you can do much of whatever you want. Sol'kanar is perfect for a Swampwalk theme deck.

I'm not going to argue power level because playing Sol'kanar purely for power is probably a mistake. I think he makes a fine leader for a Swampwalk deck, though, and there's no arguing that the deck playing Evil Presence is a Swampwalk deck.

[Fable Wright]

Hey!

I just started to get into Magic after playing Planeswalker 2013-2014.) I have been working on a Primarily White Mana, Human Token army deck of sorts for the Modern Bracket. I wasn't without any cards at all though, as I have two Fifth Dawn deck. Mirrodin's core will help with any other mana color I will need in my deck; however, I have yet to playtest what I have so far. It's not yet worth mentioning.

(For the record, there is technically a Magic card titled ______) Check the Unhinged set!)
Is this for a tournament-competitive deck? If so, I recommend going with Spirit token producers far more often than Human ones. For example, Spectral Procession, Lingering Souls, and Midnight Haunting are probably the 3 best token producers in Modern, and Shrine of Loyal Legions is some amazing late-game token making. You also want a lot of Anthem effects, like Honor of the Pure, Leyline of the Meek, and Intangible Virtue. You'll probably also want Windbrisk Heights, as free spells are good. Proceed to tweak the deck to taste, including splashes. Black is a good one because of the flashback on Lingering Souls, but Blue is my favorite just because of one package you can include: 4x Polymorph, 2x Emrakul/Progenitus. Cast Polymorph on token -> win the game. Mana fixing for these splashes available in the forms of Seachrome Coast, City of Brass, Terramorphic Expanse/Evolving Wilds (budget) and/or fetch lands and Hallowed Fountain/Godless Shrine (very non-budget).

[Kiren]

Is this for a tournament-competitive deck? If so, I recommend going with Spirit token producers far more often than Human ones. For example, Spectral Procession, Lingering Souls, and Midnight Haunting are probably the 3 best token producers in Modern, and Shrine of Loyal Legions is some amazing late-game token making. You also want a lot of Anthem effects, like Honor of the Pure, Leyline of the Meek, and Intangible Virtue. You'll probably also want Windbrisk Heights, as free spells are good. Proceed to tweak the deck to taste, including splashes. Black is a good one because of the flashback on Lingering Souls, but Blue is my favorite just because of one package you can include: 4x Polymorph, 2x Emrakul/Progenitus. Cast Polymorph on token -> win the game. Mana fixing for these splashes available in the forms of Seachrome Coast, City of Brass, Terramorphic Expanse/Evolving Wilds (budget) and/or fetch lands and Hallowed Fountain/Godless Shrine (very non-budget).

I am looking to try and be tournament competitive. I do have a few reasons for going with Human Tokens. Increasing devotion + parallel lives looks like it can do some damage (especially with a flashback-casted increasing devotion.) If I can draw a Mirrodins core of some red mana then Kesaig Malcontents and Champion of the Parish are looking pretty good at that point to ring up some pretty good damage (or Angelic Chorus to heal up?). I'm planning on making use of Wonder for flight as I hear it is more difficult to remove (though I am not sure how well that will play out so.) Hero of Bladehold is also a neat token builder to consider. If all else fails, I have Angel of Glory's Rise to resurrect all non-token humans right back to the battlefield.

I am liking the idea of including polymorph so I might toy with that... Thank you for all the card information! It's all very helpful!

[CN the Logos]

Are we talking about Commander? This is the format where people design decks specifically to show them off and where the goal is actually explicitly not to win but to look cool doing whatever it is you're doing. Sure, no one plays bad cards, but Sol'kanar is far from Wood Elemental in bad and in fact actually functions pretty well and is completely reasonable.

This was... more or less what I said? :smallconfused: I don't play uber-competitive EDH (I do sometimes play competitive games, but I don't think EDH is the best format for that sort of thing). For Commander, I generally take the Julio Scoundrel approach (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) to deck-building. I specifically said that Sol'kanar wasn't bad, but I was questioning the use of him in that particular deck.


Not every Commander deck is designed around its Commander. Many Commander decks aren't even designed to ever cast the darn thing[...]

I'm well aware. I occasionally play with a guy who runs a nearly mono-blue Reaper King deck. His strategy mostly revolves around playing Omniscience and then inexplicably failing to end the game for five to ten turns. It's horrible. :smallyuk: He also has a mostly red Reaper King deck, and I think one other deck (that is also led by Reaper King). I'm not sure he owns more than one legendary creature. None of these decks use scarecrows or even changelings, in case you were wondering.


[...]and many are not super-slaves to the theme. Commander is a format where you can do much of whatever you want. Sol'kanar is perfect for a Swampwalk theme deck.

I'm not going to argue power level because playing Sol'kanar purely for power is probably a mistake. I think he makes a fine leader for a Swampwalk deck, though, and there's no arguing that the deck playing Evil Presence is a Swampwalk deck.
I'm running on the assumption that Thanatos 51-50 is interested in theme to some extent, since his post mentioned two themes: tribal zombies, and exploiting swampwalk. Note that when I say "theme," I don't necessarily mean fluff; shared mechanics can form a theme too. Swampwalk could be a great theme. Zombies could also be good theme. If I somehow entirely misinterpreted that post and he just wants to run Grixis goodstuff, that could also be fun (but then why play tribal zombies?).

All I'm pointing out is that right now, the deck is missing a lot of cool and effective stuff for tribal zombies, but it isn't actually doing much with swampwalk either. Sol'kanar is, unless I missed something, the only creature with swampwalk in the deck. There are two creatures in the deck that can give other creatures swampwalk, but they're pretty fragile. That subtheme could be cut almost entirely to improve the zombies, or the zombies could be replaced with more things that swampwalk to take advantage of the ability to create swamps. Right now, the deck is trying to do two things at once and looks like it's not going to be good at either one.

Anyway, I've given my advice, and I hope it was helpful to the person it was intended for. I won't be playing with or against the deck myself, and arguing with someone about a third party's deck seems pointless unless we're both playing against it and the thing we're arguing is "is this deck appropriate for our playgroup?" Since that isn't the case, I'm not going to continue debating the merits of a deck that neither of us are actually going to use (unless of course you and Thanatos know each other outside of the forum and you intend to borrow it or something, in which case you know what you enjoy playing better than I). If I get more information about what the creator and player of the deck is looking to do with it, I'll reassess my statements.

[Fable Wright]

I am looking to try and be tournament competitive. I do have a few reasons for going with Human Tokens. Increasing devotion + parallel lives looks like it can do some damage (especially with a flashback-casted increasing devotion.) If I can draw a Mirrodins core of some red mana then Kessig Malcontents and Champion of the Parish are looking pretty good at that point to ring up some pretty good damage (or Angelic Chorus to heal up?). I'm planning on making use of Wonder for flight as I hear it is more difficult to remove (though I am not sure how well that will play out so.) Hero of Bladehold is also a neat token builder to consider. If all else fails, I have Angel of Glory's Rise to resurrect all non-token humans right back to the battlefield.

I am liking the idea of including polymorph so I might toy with that... Thank you for all the card information! It's all very helpful!

The thing you have to understand about Modern is that it is a very fast format (significantly faster than Duel of the Planeswalkers games) on the whole with a large amount of disruption. What you're going to have to deal with are Thoughtseizes to rip the most important cards out of your hand, Lightning Bolts and Path to Exile, cantripping counterspells (ones that draw a card to replace themselves), beaters like a 3/1 flier that puts the Lingering Souls in your hand on the bottom of your library for 3 mana, a 2 mana 3/4 or 4/5, and decks that can win the game on the spot if they assemble their combo (for example, Kiki-Jiki/Splinter Twin with Pestermite/Deciever Exarch/Zealous Conscripts) and decks that can do that, PLUS have incredibly strong engines that make them hard to kill (Birthing Pod to turn Kitchen Finks into Murderous Redcap, for example, when Melira and sacrifice outlets exist in the deck to make the combo go infinite). In a format with the strongest creatures ever made, some of the strongest disruption and tempo spells ever made, and where decks exist that can combo out turn 2 and win (though only Blistercoil Weird Combo can do it, and it's one rather inconsistent deck) every single turn of the game and spell in your deck is crucial to winning.

Waiting to turn 4 to cast a spell that doesn't immediately do anything (Parallel Lives) is going to severely hurt your gameplan. Especially since there are so many answers for it. (Remand: Put it back in your hand. Now you can spend all of next turn failing to cast it, as well! Qasali Pridemage: Your spent 4 mana on that, and now I spend one mana to remove it. Deathcloud: Nice enchantment. I'm going to have you sacrifice 5 creatures, lands, and discard 5 cards. Good luck ever using it. Birthing Pod: Fetch out Harmonic Sliver/Acidic Slime and remove it, and now I'm one turn closer to comboing out. Kiki-Jiki: Cool. You get twice the tokens. I get as many as I want! R/G Tron: Plays Karn, Exiles the enchantment, swings in again with Wurmcoil Engine.) If you do ever resolve Increasing Devotion out of your hand, then it would be good for stabilizing. The rather significant problem being that your 2/2 Humans still have to deal with that 5/6 for 2, that 3+ power flier you can't block, all of the burn in your opponent's hand, and Engineered Explosives to wipe out your field. And no, you are never going to resolve it flashbacked. I'm sorry I'm being harsh on your concept of Human Tribal in modern, but it's to make a point: Modern is about efficiency, and the deck you proposed really isn't efficient.

And, not to beat a dead horse, but I would like you to look at how those cards really work in practice: Hero of Bladehold, while very powerful, does nothing when she comes into play, and so is just taken care of by a Path to Exile if she ever resolves. Champion of the Parish is a powerful card, but there's not enough token support for it: There's one cheap Human Token producer, Gather the Townsfolk, and without it, he's just a 1/1 or a 2/2. Kessig Malcontents, in an ideal situation (turn 1 Champion of the Parish, turn 2 Gather the Townsfolk) it deals 4 damage to the other player (which is pretty good to be fair) and makes the Champion a 4/4. Unfortunately, the Champion has a 4/5 to contend with, the player has a Kitchen Finks to deal with the tokens and gain the 4 life back, and has already removed the best card from your hand.

Again, I'm very sorry if I sound like I'm berating your deck idea. It sounds fun, and in a Standard Friday Night Magic event, the deck seems like it could be fairly powerful and original as well. Champion of the Parish into Gather the Townsfolk or Burning-Tree Emissary and Mayor of Avabruck, then hitting them with a Kessig Malcontents seems powerful and fun in Standard. Even doing things like Thatcher Revolt, which are less than optimal but fun, and going Vigilante Justice into Increasing Devotion seems like it could do surprisingly well. But Modern is a very different beast than Standard and DotP, where anything that doesn't have an immediate board impact really doesn't have a place.

And now various points that I should make: Hero of Bladehold makes Soldier Tokens that do not have the human type, Wonder was printed in Judgement and no later sets and so is not legal in Modern or Standard (it does have the modern border in the Commander printing, but that does not make it legal in Modern) and Angelic Chorus could easily be outshone by Soul's Attendant/Soul Warden/Auriok Champion, and those should be avoided due to the fact that you want every Polymorph to hit an Emrakul, and just a 5 mana enchantment that has no immediate impact should be cut to make room for a 2-mana enchantment that does. (Honor of the Pure and Intangible Virtue are the main culprits, here.)

[Thanatos 51-50]

Just to stop the arguing:
The original theme when I first dreamed up the deck was "Use Sol'Kanar to swamp-walk in ALL THE GENERAL DAMAGE". As I was searching for cards to support this, I more or less went a little overboard with zombies and zombie lords, so much that I started specifically looking for zombies and, since I still had swampwalk and swampwalk support in my mind, tried to give them swampwalk and call it a "swampwalk zombie" deck.

In short, any weirdness in the build is because I'm an idiot.

Take Rooftop Storm, for example, why isn't it in the deck? I forgot it existed. Why aren't Psychic Strike or Spell Rupture or Name-You-Favourite-Counterspell-of-choice-Wot-isn't-Counterspell in the deck? I dunno. Grew a bit obsessed with creatures? I should totally fix that.

Why is Sol'Kanar the general? Well, he was kind of the original idea (see above), but I also wasn't aware of any OTHER Grixis-coloured generals. I know a few more exist now, and they're zombie-flavoured, too. I may have to use those.
Why Grixis? No real reason, here, it's just one of my favourite colour combinations. I started playing magic as a Black/Red player and now mostly play Black/Blue, so, y'know. Habits.

I *totally thought* I had some native swampwalkin' and more ways to add in swampwalk. Thank you for pointing out I only have two swampwalk givers and no native swampwalk outside of Sol'Kanar. That is a serious hole in the battle-plan that needs to be patched.
Thus, I do now list the priorities of the deck which it seems my already-existing Magic knowledge is woefully underequipped to handle.


Grixis colours
Swampwalk and the exploitation thereof
Strong tribal wall o' creatures ("Zombies" has a lot of Lords and lots of cards from the Wayback up 'til now, and I just kind of gradually settled on it)
Fun tricks (Did anybody see the Infinite Reflections -> Diregraf Captain -> Fling/Rite of Consumption combo? I thought that one was kind of fun!)
Grixis Goodstuff


(It should be noted that Sol'Kanar is *not* on this list. Is there a(nother) better General for the goal out there? Let me know! I'm kind of an idiot!)

[Fable Wright]

Every Grixis-compatable card related to Swampwalk. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?page=1&action=advanced&text=+%5Bswampwalk%5D&color=+!%5BG%5D+!%5BW%5D)

[Kiren]

The thing you have to understand about Modern is that it is a very fast format (significantly faster than Duel of the Planeswalkers games) on the whole with a large amount of disruption. What you're going to have to deal with are Thoughtseizes to rip the most important cards out of your hand, Lightning Bolts and Path to Exile, cantripping counterspells (ones that draw a card to replace themselves), beaters like a 3/1 flier that puts the Lingering Souls in your hand on the bottom of your library for 3 mana, a 2 mana 3/4 or 4/5, and decks that can win the game on the spot if they assemble their combo (for example, Kiki-Jiki/Splinter Twin with Pestermite/Deciever Exarch/Zealous Conscripts) and decks that can do that, PLUS have incredibly strong engines that make them hard to kill (Birthing Pod to turn Kitchen Finks into Murderous Redcap, for example, when Melira and sacrifice outlets exist in the deck to make the combo go infinite). In a format with the strongest creatures ever made, some of the strongest disruption and tempo spells ever made, and where decks exist that can combo out turn 2 and win (though only Blistercoil Weird Combo can do it, and it's one rather inconsistent deck) every single turn of the game and spell in your deck is crucial to winning.

Waiting to turn 4 to cast a spell that doesn't immediately do anything (Parallel Lives) is going to severely hurt your gameplan. Especially since there are so many answers for it. (Remand: Put it back in your hand. Now you can spend all of next turn failing to cast it, as well! Qasali Pridemage: Your spent 4 mana on that, and now I spend one mana to remove it. Deathcloud: Nice enchantment. I'm going to have you sacrifice 5 creatures, lands, and discard 5 cards. Good luck ever using it. Birthing Pod: Fetch out Harmonic Sliver/Acidic Slime and remove it, and now I'm one turn closer to comboing out. Kiki-Jiki: Cool. You get twice the tokens. I get as many as I want! R/G Tron: Plays Karn, Exiles the enchantment, swings in again with Wurmcoil Engine.) If you do ever resolve Increasing Devotion out of your hand, then it would be good for stabilizing. The rather significant problem being that your 2/2 Humans still have to deal with that 5/6 for 2, that 3+ power flier you can't block, all of the burn in your opponent's hand, and Engineered Explosives to wipe out your field. And no, you are never going to resolve it flashbacked. I'm sorry I'm being harsh on your concept of Human Tribal in modern, but it's to make a point: Modern is about efficiency, and the deck you proposed really isn't efficient.

And, not to beat a dead horse, but I would like you to look at how those cards really work in practice: Hero of Bladehold, while very powerful, does nothing when she comes into play, and so is just taken care of by a Path to Exile if she ever resolves. Champion of the Parish is a powerful card, but there's not enough token support for it: There's one cheap Human Token producer, Gather the Townsfolk, and without it, he's just a 1/1 or a 2/2. Kessig Malcontents, in an ideal situation (turn 1 Champion of the Parish, turn 2 Gather the Townsfolk) it deals 4 damage to the other player (which is pretty good to be fair) and makes the Champion a 4/4. Unfortunately, the Champion has a 4/5 to contend with, the player has a Kitchen Finks to deal with the tokens and gain the 4 life back, and has already removed the best card from your hand.

Again, I'm very sorry if I sound like I'm berating your deck idea. It sounds fun, and in a Standard Friday Night Magic event, the deck seems like it could be fairly powerful and original as well. Champion of the Parish into Gather the Townsfolk or Burning-Tree Emissary and Mayor of Avabruck, then hitting them with a Kessig Malcontents seems powerful and fun in Standard. Even doing things like Thatcher Revolt, which are less than optimal but fun, and going Vigilante Justice into Increasing Devotion seems like it could do surprisingly well. But Modern is a very different beast than Standard and DotP, where anything that doesn't have an immediate board impact really doesn't have a place.

And now various points that I should make: Hero of Bladehold makes Soldier Tokens that do not have the human type, Wonder was printed in Judgement and no later sets and so is not legal in Modern or Standard (it does have the modern border in the Commander printing, but that does not make it legal in Modern) and Angelic Chorus could easily be outshone by Soul's Attendant/Soul Warden/Auriok Champion, and those should be avoided due to the fact that you want every Polymorph to hit an Emrakul, and just a 5 mana enchantment that has no immediate impact should be cut to make room for a 2-mana enchantment that does. (Honor of the Pure and Intangible Virtue are the main culprits, here.)

You make excellent points (on that note, I remember seeing a more recent, anthem-flying card, would you happen to know it's name?) about the speed of the deck among the other problems. How do you feel about the Angel of Glory's Rise? I've got about two of them set up for a trump card. They are less effective when I realized that tokens cannot be resurrected from the graveyard, but regardless of that, the card can bring back every lost human card unless my graveyard has been exiled. And how do you feel about Angel's Grace and Near-Death Experience being added in?

[Fable Wright]

You make excellent points (on that note, I remember seeing a more recent, anthem-flying card, would you happen to know it's name?) about the speed of the deck among the other problems. How do you feel about the Angel of Glory's Rise? I've got about two of them set up for a trump card. They are less effective when I realized that tokens cannot be resurrected from the graveyard, but regardless of that, the card can bring back every lost human card unless my graveyard has been exiled. And how do you feel about Angel's Grace and Near-Death Experience being added in?

Favorable Winds is probably the anthem you're looking for, but I would recommend sticking to 10-12 Anthems and going with Honor of the Pure over Favorable Winds due to Raise the Alarm and Gather the Townsfolk being potential cards to run.

Angel of Glory's Rise in Standard is currently a very powerful effect. There is a deck in standard right now that uses Unburial Rites to return an Angel from the graveyard while having a Cartel Aristocrat, Fiend Hunter, and a human with a powerful Enters the Battlefield effect (Huntmaster of the Fells seems to be the popular choice for the supply of wolves and life) in the graveyard or on the battlefield. The Aristocrats player returns everything with the Angel, uses the Fiend Hunter to Exile the Angel, sacrifices their field to Cartel Arisocrat, and the process is repeated again. Two things to keep in mind, though, are 1) the fact that even in Standard, the Angel is just cheated into play most of the time, and 2) that you, as a token deck, will have few ways to properly take advantage of the effect. If you're running a casual (not competitive deck, and not restricted to any format) and are running Mayor of Avabruck, Champion of the Parish, and Hero of Bladehold along with a few other value humans like Thraben Doomsayer, I would run one or two. In a competitive token deck, the cost and actual value you'd get per Angel makes it unfeasible to run.

For Near-Death Experience and Angel's Grace, I recommend not including that as a package in your token deck. Aside from Near-Death Experience costing 6 and triggering only on your upkeep, they don't synergize at all with your primary gameplan. If you draw the two-card combo, survive to get 6 mana, resolve Near-Death Experience, survive until your next turn when you play Angel's Grace, and then not take instant-speed damage before your upkeep (which is something to think about in a format with Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix commonly played) you damn well deserve to win the game, though the win would be much more easily achieved by paying 4 mana to cast one card that leaves you with a 15/15 protection from colored spells annihilator 6 flier or a 10/10 protection from anything. If you really wanted to add in more combos aside from the already sufficient 4 copies of Polymorph, you could run Proteus Staff, though that brings your deck into combo territory over an aggressive token strategy. (Remember, this core concept only works because the only creature cards in the deck are Emrakul/Progenitus.)

If you want to do fun things with Near-Death Experience, I recommend (in casual, and not in competitive environments) Volcano Hellion, Spellskite, Angel's Glory, and effects like Holy Day, Dawn Charm, and Safe Passage. If you want to win the game after casting Angel's Glory, I recommend running it alongside Ad Nauseum and Conflagrate (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=347431).

[Skios]

After a few years out of the game I decided to get back into Standard, mostly for FNMs. I built the following deck (http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/789219) on a €60 budget. It's a fairly standard mono-red deck based on the similar RTR block constructed deck. I've drawn exclusively from RTR block and M14 due to the upcoming rotations in September and October. The sideboard will be added at the end of the month, along with a fourth Legion Loyalist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366348). I probably should include a playset of Boros Reckoner (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366385), but that would cost as much as the rest of the deck combined.

The deck has a fairly standard weenie strategy behind it that leans heavily on Batallion from Legion Loyalist and Firefist Striker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366311). The deck has a fairly strong goldfish draw, although as is to be expected if you don't win by turn five you're probably not going to win at all. As for the sideboard, it has Smelt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370784) to fend off Ratchet Bomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370623), Electrickery (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253545) to shut down similar decks, Mindsparker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370695) to battle control or mill decks and Act of Treason (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370618) and Seismic Stomp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370713) to give the deck some extra finishing power, should it need it.

I am strongly considering splashing white for the added durability but without being able to afford a playset of Sacred Foundry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366439) I would be giving up too much tempo to make it worthwhile. Guildgates are just too slow to run with my current strategy. It's definitely something I'd like to try out in the future though, with cards such as Wear // Tear (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=368950), Boros Charm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366435), Frontline Medic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366460), Legion's Initiative (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=369066), Viashino Firstblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=369070) and Skyknight Legionnaire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366338). To what extend I would be willing to sacrifice speed for staying power would depend on the post-rotation meta.

[CN the Logos]

Just to stop the arguing:
The original theme when I first dreamed up the deck was "Use Sol'Kanar to swamp-walk in ALL THE GENERAL DAMAGE". As I was searching for cards to support this, I more or less went a little overboard with zombies and zombie lords, so much that I started specifically looking for zombies and, since I still had swampwalk and swampwalk support in my mind, tried to give them swampwalk and call it a "swampwalk zombie" deck.

In short, any weirdness in the build is because I'm an idiot.

I apologize for the arguing, and didn't mean to imply that you were an idiot or anything of that sort. There are some good ideas here that could be developed with some work.


Take Rooftop Storm, for example, why isn't it in the deck? I forgot it existed. Why aren't Psychic Strike or Spell Rupture or Name-You-Favourite-Counterspell-of-choice-Wot-isn't-Counterspell in the deck? I dunno. Grew a bit obsessed with creatures? I should totally fix that.

If, as you mention below, a "strong tribal wall o' creatures" is a priority, and your tribe is zombies, Rooftop Storm is a must. Counterspells are good to have, but don't go overboard with them for a few reasons: one for one trades aren't as good in games with more than two players, double blue mana requirements may be difficult to meet if you're mostly black, and finally, people hate playing against permission decks in my experience. Even if they aren't actually strong decks, having to ask "Mother may I?" every time you want to play a spell is tiresome, so people team up to take the permission player out of the game. I generally limit myself to five, and use them only to stop game-ending plays and sweepers that will totally wreck my board-state. Hinder and Spell Crumple (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=237005) (almost the same card with two names) are lifesavers against decks based on general damage, but the Voltron player knows this and will be expecting it. They also have a double blue requirement, so you may or may not want to use them depending on how many blue sources you can fit into the finshing deck without compromising your black sources.


Why is Sol'Kanar the general? Well, he was kind of the original idea (see above), but I also wasn't aware of any OTHER Grixis-coloured generals. I know a few more exist now, and they're zombie-flavoured, too. I may have to use those.

A quick alteration of DMofDarkness's search gives us all blue, black, and/or red legendary zombies (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&color=+![G]+![W]&type=+[%22Legendary%22]&subtype=+[%22Zombie%22]). If you want to be Grixis as opposed to Dimir, Rakdos, or just monoblack, and you also want the general to be a zombie (because having your general benefit from your lords is awesome), you have three options.

Lord of Tresserhorn is the worst in my opinion, he's huge and only costs four mana, but having to sacrifice two creatures every time he enters the battlefield nullifies any advantage you'd get from his low mana cost, and the only thing that keeps your opponents from just killing him and making your sacrifices for nothing is his ability to regenerate for B. Which would be awesome if there weren't so many things that totally ignore regeneration.

Thraximundar doesn't do anything for the rest of your creatures, but is a big dude who benefits from both your lords and any effects you have that force people to sacrifice creatures. You could even put Lord of Tresserhorn in Thraximundar EDH; if you play him while Thrax is out, you get two +1/+1 counters on your general, and if your opponent doesn't deal with him right away, then you can actually attack with him and call it a bonus.

Sedris is probably the least focused on general damage, though a 5/5 body means you can have that as a backup plan if your opponent decides to pull shenanigans resulting in them suddenly having two hundred life or something. If you aren't abusing ETB effects for fun and profit (which I believe is the "competitive" way to play him), you can use him to feed effects that require sacrifice (e.g. Eldrazi Monument), or just to return a bunch of things to play at once as part of an attempt to overrun an opponent. Both he and Thrax would go well in each other's decks; Thrax is a big guy for Sedris to reanimate, and Sedris lets Thrax benefit from your creatures dying twice, provided you have a sec outlet.


Why Grixis? No real reason, here, it's just one of my favourite colour combinations. I started playing magic as a Black/Red player and now mostly play Black/Blue, so, y'know. Habits.

Absolutely nothing wrong with having preferences. If you don't like the deck, there's no point playing it, right?


I *totally thought* I had some native swampwalkin' and more ways to add in swampwalk. Thank you for pointing out I only have two swampwalk givers and no native swampwalk outside of Sol'Kanar. That is a serious hole in the battle-plan that needs to be patched.
Thus, I do now list the priorities of the deck which it seems my already-existing Magic knowledge is woefully underequipped to handle.


Grixis colours
Swampwalk and the exploitation thereof
Strong tribal wall o' creatures ("Zombies" has a lot of Lords and lots of cards from the Wayback up 'til now, and I just kind of gradually settled on it)
Fun tricks (Did anybody see the Infinite Reflections -> Diregraf Captain -> Fling/Rite of Consumption combo? I thought that one was kind of fun!)
Grixis Goodstuff


(It should be noted that Sol'Kanar is *not* on this list. Is there a(nother) better General for the goal out there? Let me know! I'm kind of an idiot!)

If you definitely want to keep both a Grixis color identity and a strong focus on the swampwalk mechanic, I'd keep Sol'kanar and replace the small zombies with Grixis good stuff that either swampwalks or supports Sol'kanar in his swampwalking efforts.

Alternatively, if you like Grixis zombies a lot but want to keep the swampwalk theme too, you could cut a few of the swampwalk enablers (I'd keep both zombies that give the keyword, Blanket of Night, Evil Presence, Contaminated Ground and/or Tainted Well, and of course Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth because you'd want to play that anyway). Then play Thraximundar; he benefits from your lords, and you can give him swampwalk and still have enough ways to turn lands into swamps as long as you also play some tutors and other card advantage. You could also play other ways to make him big and/or hard to block, so if the swampwalk plan doesn't work out, he's still able to be a threat (and he starts off pretty threatening already, what with the forcing people to sac creatures and getting bigger each time that happens).

Also, I didn't see that combo, but it is pretty hilarious. I completely approve. :smallbiggrin:

[mattie_p]

** Advice Requested **

So, I recently moved and found some old Magic cards I didn't think I had any longer. In particular, I have a Tundra and a Scrublands card. I no longer play magic and am wondering if I am best off selling them through a hobby shop or through ebay. Any thoughts?

(Yes, I looked at Starcitygames and I am very intrigued at the listed prices. I consider these to be moderately played cards based on their guidelines, but I am not a professional grader).

[Shadow of the Sun]

** Advice Requested **

So, I recently moved and found some old Magic cards I didn't think I had any longer. In particular, I have a Tundra and a Scrublands card. I no longer play magic and am wondering if I am best off selling them through a hobby shop or through ebay. Any thoughts?

(Yes, I looked at Starcitygames and I am very intrigued at the listed prices. I consider these to be moderately played cards based on their guidelines, but I am not a professional grader).

I'd go to a hobby shop and discuss with the players rather than go via ebay.

Just because there's less chance of mail mess ups, and you might make some friends! :)

[Lhurgyof]

** Advice Requested **

So, I recently moved and found some old Magic cards I didn't think I had any longer. In particular, I have a Tundra and a Scrublands card. I no longer play magic and am wondering if I am best off selling them through a hobby shop or through ebay. Any thoughts?

(Yes, I looked at Starcitygames and I am very intrigued at the listed prices. I consider these to be moderately played cards based on their guidelines, but I am not a professional grader).

Give them to me! :P

I'd go with ebay. Local stores will only pay half what it's worth. Players would pay about 75%.

[Baka Nikujaga]

[Advice Requested Please!]
So...like Justyn, I've been milling through a Standard Sliver deck concept and I was wondering what critiques might be out there for the current set-up I've been working on.


Land Base | 20
Forest 3
Mountain 2
Plains 2
Mutavault (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370733) (1)
Sacred Foundry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366439) (4)
Stomping Ground (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366232) (4)
Temple Garden (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253681) (4)

Creatures | 27
Arbor Elf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=249840) (4) -> Elvish Mystic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370744) (4)
Striking Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370589) (3)
Manaweft Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370599) (4)
Predatory Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370745) (4)
Sentinel Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370813) (3)
Blur Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370593) (3)
Bonescythe Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370801) (3)
Thorncaster Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370820) (2)
Aurelia, the Warleader (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366448) (1)

Spells | 13
Dynacharge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265397) (1)
Pillar of Flames (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240013) (3) -> Shock (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370654) (3)
Boros Charm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366435) (4)
Mizzium Mortars (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253632) (3)
Selesnya Charm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253651) (2)

[Lord Seth]

and where decks exist that can combo out turn 2 and win (though only Blistercoil Weird Combo can do it, and it's one rather inconsistent deck) every single turn of the game and spell in your deck is crucial to winning.
A nitpick, but that's not true. Griselcannon can win on turn 2... in fact, it can win on turn 1. Play a Black-producing land and exile two Simian Spirit Guides from hand. Cast Faithless Looting, discard Griselbrand and some random other card. Cast Goryo's Vengeance, swing with Griselbrand, then do the usual combo of drawing tons of cards off of him so you can repeat the whole thing via Fury of the Hordes and deal extra damage/gain extra life with Soul Spike. It requires an absurdly perfect hand, but it is doable.

[Fable Wright]

** Advice Requested **

So, I recently moved and found some old Magic cards I didn't think I had any longer. In particular, I have a Tundra and a Scrublands card. I no longer play magic and am wondering if I am best off selling them through a hobby shop or through ebay. Any thoughts?

(Yes, I looked at Starcitygames and I am very intrigued at the listed prices. I consider these to be moderately played cards based on their guidelines, but I am not a professional grader).
Selling cards online or to a local game shop will tend to get you 60% list price, maximum. Ebay will get you closer to 90% of list price. Selling them to players in a local game store will probably get you 75-80% list price in cash, but will at the very least irritate store owners as they're cut out of the profit loop entirely.

[Advice Requested Please!]
So...like Justyn, I've been milling through a Standard Sliver deck concept and I was wondering what critiques might be out there for the current set-up I've been working on.


Land Base | 20
Forest 3
Mountain 2
Plains 2
Mutavault (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370733) (1)
Sacred Foundry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366439) (4)
Stomping Ground (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366232) (4)
Temple Garden (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253681) (4)

Creatures | 27
Arbor Elf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=249840) (4) -> Elvish Mystic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370744) (4)
Striking Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370589) (3)
Manaweft Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370599) (4)
Predatory Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370745) (4)
Sentinel Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370813) (3)
Blur Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370593) (3)
Bonescythe Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370801) (3)
Thorncaster Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370820) (2)
Aurelia, the Warleader (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366448) (1)

Spells | 13
Dynacharge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265397) (1)
Pillar of Flames (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240013) (3) -> Shock (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370654) (3)
Boros Charm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366435) (4)
Mizzium Mortars (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253632) (3)
Selesnya Charm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253651) (2)

Looking at this, there are two routes I could see you going down. The first is what you're trying to do: Sliver linear aggro, where you just play lots of Sliver Lord effects. Predatory, Armored, Megantic, and so on. Going this route, I recommend going up to 23 lands and not running the Arbor Elves, and I recommend going 4-color, if not 5. Galerider Sliver is just too powerful a card not to run in a sliver deck in multiples, as it makes slivers very difficult to block in a format centered around ground-based creatures, and light countermagic elements (namely, Negate) could do very well in the deck. I recommend taking out Aurelia and putting in Megantic Sliver instead, as it is a much more potent card. Taking out, say, the Dynacharges, Selesnya Charms, and using the spare slot from the elves for 3 lands to put in Farseeks would make the splashing easier, make your field slightly less vulnerable to board wipes, and be a good move in general.

The second route, which I thought of while giving you recommendations and is rather different than the list you have here, is making SliverBall, named after the famed ElfBall of Legacy. This route involves making the only noncreature spells in the deck Beck//Call and Ready//Willing. The deck works much like the normal tribal sliver list, except that it doesn't run Slivers that cost more than 3, runs Gatecreeper Vines and/or Dawntreader Elks for manafixing, and has the potential to explode across the board in a devastating display of card advantage. The combo works by having Manaweft Sliver and Blur Sliver on the battlefield at the same time, and then casting Beck//Call with a few creature cards in hand. Cast, say, Galerider Sliver, draw a card, tap it for a Striking Sliver, draw a card, and proceed until you have just 3 mana open when you can't play any more slivers without going below that threshold and a Ready//Willing in hand. If you only have a few slivers on the board at this point, you can cast it to untap all of them and use it as a powerful mana engine. If you have a large number of slivers, instead just hold onto it on your opponent's turn, and use it to counter the inevitable boardwipe. It's a bit of a fragile combo, but it seems like it could be pretty powerful and a whole lot of fun, especially considering that just Beck with Manaweft Sliver is likely to draw you into Blur Sliver pretty fast. Here, Armored Sliver is good because it works with Predatory Sliver to protect your Manaweft Slivers from the inevitable Shock; some combination of two Armored/Predatory Slivers means that it's a safe part of the combo engine. And if the combo doesn't work out, you can just swing at people with a bunch of 2/2+ flying first strike vigilant occasionally indestructible creatures.

[tgva8889]

Selling cards online or to a local game shop will tend to get you 60% list price, maximum. Ebay will get you closer to 90% of list price. Selling them to players in a local game store will probably get you 75-80% list price in cash, but will at the very least irritate store owners as they're cut out of the profit loop entirely.

In my experience, most store owners will straight out not let you do this, and if they find out that you've attempted to sell cards to other people in their store, you can probably expect to not be inside that store for a very long time, if perhaps ever again. But perhaps I have worse experiences with store owners than most.

[CN the Logos]

In my experience, most store owners will straight out not let you do this, and if they find out that you've attempted to sell cards to other people in their store, you can probably expect to not be inside that store for a very long time, if perhaps ever again. But perhaps I have worse experiences with store owners than most.

I've never had a bouncer throw me out or anything, but yeah, selling your own cards inside a game store puts you in direct competition with the shop owners, which they don't appreciate at all (rightfully so, since they're basically paying for a place for their competitor to do business in that case). However, the local game stores I currently go to are both willing to compromise on the issue; if you want to buy something from another patron of the store, you can purchase a store gift card for the agreed upon amount, and give that to the person as a trade for the card(s) you want to buy. It's not quite cash, but if you want to turn it into more cards or other nerd stuff anyway, it works. Alternatively, once you're on good terms with the shop owners, they might be willing to cut you some slack provided you don't abuse it; I sell my rares to other players on a quasi-regular basis for money to buy snacks and drinks in the shop, and at least once made a fairly large deal with another player within 15 or 20 feet of the owner, because he knew my wife and I needed that money so that we could afford to draft that week. Generally, I find that as long as the shop owners aren't losing money to competitors in their own shop, they're pretty chill.

On the other hand, anyone who hasn't played Magic in so long that they still have original duals and didn't know that they were worth a ton of money probably doesn't want to turn those cards into more cards, and so is better off going with eBay. Which makes most of my reply a moot point. Oh well. :smallsigh:

[Sohala]

My store only asks that if money is changing hands, it has to be outside.

[Shadow of the Sun]

My friendly local gaming store doesn't sell singles; they're primarily a comic shop. So yeah, they're a bit more comfortable with money exchanging hands for cards.

[Mystic Muse]

On an unrelated note, I'm wondering if there's a competitive deck I could build just using Marsh Flats or Misty in terms of Fetchlands. I'm trying to have two competitive decks available at any one time (One for me, one for anybody who'd like to join me) and wondering what the best options are.

I have no Scalding Tarns or Arid Mesas. Naturally, this if for Modern, and I'm not expecting a "Yes" but I'm hoping for one.

[RaggedAngel]

On an unrelated note, I'm wondering if there's a competitive deck I could build just using Marsh Flats or Misty in terms of Fetchlands. I'm trying to have two competitive decks available at any one time (One for me, one for anybody who'd like to join me) and wondering what the best options are.

I have no Scalding Tarns or Arid Mesas. Naturally, this if for Modern, and I'm not expecting a "Yes" but I'm hoping for one.

Melira Pod could get by with just Flats and Rainforests, and it has the side benefit of being extremely strong and resilient.

[Fable Wright]

On an unrelated note, I'm wondering if there's a competitive deck I could build just using Marsh Flats or Misty in terms of Fetchlands. I'm trying to have two competitive decks available at any one time (One for me, one for anybody who'd like to join me) and wondering what the best options are.

I have no Scalding Tarns or Arid Mesas. Naturally, this if for Modern, and I'm not expecting a "Yes" but I'm hoping for one.

Deathcloud could get by with just Flats and Rainforests, and it has the side effect of being extremely simple and resilient.

[bobthe6th]

So, playing around with a shadow apostle deck... and it is interesting. 30 apostles seems about the lowest I can go, with 2 Grisslebrand, 8 spells(4 immortal servitude, 4 sign in blood), and 20 swamps.

Issues tend to be that if my opponent gets set up fast enough, or is running removal that can kill the demon, the deck loses. against a deck with any mount of set up though... a 7/7 turn 4 is very damaging.

the best time to combo seems like
Turn 1, lay land, summon apostle
Turn 2, lay land, summon 2 apostle
Turn 3, summon 2 apostle
Turn 4, summon apostle, sac all to summon grislebrand.


really makes me wish reaver demon was in standard...

[RaggedAngel]

Deathcloud could get by with just Flats and Rainforests, and it has the side effect of being extremely simple and resilient.

I see what you did there. :smallwink::smalltongue:

[Mystic Muse]

Deathcloud could get by with just Flats and Rainforests, and it has the side effect of being extremely simple and resilient.


Melira Pod could get by with just Flats and Rainforests, and it has the side benefit of being extremely strong and resilient.

Flats or Rainforests actually, not both.

I'm trying to build a deck that's good without me having to buy another set of fetchlands. Pod would have me buying significantly more.:smalltongue:

[Fable Wright]

Flats or Rainforests actually, not both.

I'm trying to build a deck that's good without me having to buy another set of fetchlands. Pod would have me buying significantly more.:smalltongue:

Deathcloud lists usually run 7 fetches, though as they're 2-color decks that run Sakura-Tribe Elder and Deathrite Shaman, the fixing is relatively unnecessary. The pros are that the core cards of the deck (Deathcloud, Garruk, Finks, Treetop Village) are relatively cheap, and that budget options for almost all of the deck's expensive cards exist (Thoughtseize -> Inquisition/Duress, though this really hurts against Kiki-Jiki-Restoration combo, Goyf -> Scavenging Ooze, though no Liliana of the Veil replacement exists). Two sample lists (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21748-Deck-Pox-Death-Cloud&p=742172&viewfull=1#post742172), with the first being relatively cheap, though less powerful than the other.

[tgva8889]

So, playing around with a shadow apostle deck... and it is interesting. 30 apostles seems about the lowest I can go, with 2 Grisslebrand, 8 spells(4 immortal servitude, 4 sign in blood), and 20 swamps.

Issues tend to be that if my opponent gets set up fast enough, or is running removal that can kill the demon, the deck loses. against a deck with any mount of set up though... a 7/7 turn 4 is very damaging.

the best time to combo seems like
Turn 1, lay land, summon apostle
Turn 2, lay land, summon 2 apostle
Turn 3, summon 2 apostle
Turn 4, summon apostle, sac all to summon grislebrand.


really makes me wish reaver demon was in standard...

Unfortunately, Reaver Demon only does anything special if you cast it from your hand. This means the Apostles summoning it won't inspire it to destroy all nonblack, nonartifact creatures. :smallfrown:


Deathcloud lists usually run 7 fetches, though as they're 2-color decks that run Sakura-Tribe Elder and Deathrite Shaman, the fixing is relatively unnecessary. The pros are that the core cards of the deck (Deathcloud, Garruk, Finks, Treetop Village) are relatively cheap, and that budget options for almost all of the deck's expensive cards exist (Thoughtseize -> Inquisition/Duress, though this really hurts against Kiki-Jiki-Restoration combo, Goyf -> Scavenging Ooze, though no Liliana of the Veil replacement exists). Two sample lists (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21748-Deck-Pox-Death-Cloud&p=742172&viewfull=1#post742172), with the first being relatively cheap, though less powerful than the other.

This all depends on what Death Cloud list you are playing, of course. There is a highly amusing Storm Cloud list that I saw that looks hilarious and, at the least, worth a try because besides the mana base all the cards in it are pretty inexpensive. Scroll to the bottom of this fine article (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/woo-brews-lessons-from-magic-and-sports/) to see the list. Alternatively, you could read the whole article, as it is pretty interesting.

[Fable Wright]

This all depends on what Death Cloud list you are playing, of course. There is a highly amusing Storm Cloud list that I saw that looks hilarious and, at the least, worth a try because besides the mana base all the cards in it are pretty inexpensive. Scroll to the bottom of this fine article (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/woo-brews-lessons-from-magic-and-sports/) to see the list. Alternatively, you could read the whole article, as it is pretty interesting.

...This list is not a Death Cloud list. This is a Storm list that runs Death Cloud to cast just before Empty the Warren to shut an opponent out, or Storm into the Death Cloud with a very vulnerable Greater Gargadon suspended. It's still very much a Storm deck, just one that happens to run a few Death Clouds in their 75. Death Cloud is much more like Pox in how it actually plays: grinding advantage with threats that survive a Death Cloud or are cheap enough to play after one while locking an opponent in topdeck mode with no lands. And, unlike some Pox lists, it can play the beatdown game rather well against Control between Wildspeaker, Finks, Deathrite, and Treetop Village, value like Eternal Witness and Liliana, and heavy discard elements. Neither of these are things that the Storm Cloud list can do. It is, at the very least, very different archetype than Death Cloud.

[tgva8889]

To be fair, Greater Gargadon isn't that vulnerable when your opponent doesn't have any cards in hand or lands in play, but sure. Also, as someone who's played with Greater Gargadon, you can certainly threaten to go pretty aggressive with him if you must. It's not ideal, but sometimes a 9/7 kills them.

When you said Death Cloud, I assumed the card since it is a card and not the deck, so my mistake. This deck does look pretty amusing to me, at least.

[Lea Plath]

So, went to Legacy last night with my merfolk deck. I kinda threw it together last minute, because I was missing bits but still managed to (out of 8 games) win 4 of them.

I'm now tweaking my modern (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/something-smells-fish-y-in-modern-mono-u-merfolk/) and legacy (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/lets-go-fishing-mono-u-merfolk/) merfolk lists if people wouldn't mind having a look. Any feedback welcomed.

As for my FLGS, we have two of them. They both sell singles (One only sells DGM and M14 singles, the other has a range). The one that only does DGM/M14 singles allows it because they don't have a wide ranger, while the other also has Yu-Gi-Oh, Vanguard and all sorts of other card games making it hard to police. The owner is also an awesome guy and knows that he gets business anyway and that he doesn't have access to all the singles.

[CN the Logos]

To be fair, Greater Gargadon isn't that vulnerable when your opponent doesn't have any cards in hand or lands in play, but sure. Also, as someone who's played with Greater Gargadon, you can certainly threaten to go pretty aggressive with him if you must. It's not ideal, but sometimes a 9/7 kills them.

When you said Death Cloud, I assumed the card since it is a card and not the deck, so my mistake. This deck does look pretty amusing to me, at least.

Well I for one thank you for the link. I was looking into quasi-competitive, budget modern decks so that I could have a second deck to lend to friends or give myself some variety, and I already have most of the cards for this thing. I'll have to grab the rest of it, put it together, and test it out.

Also, was looking at that Griselcannon deck. The list I saw (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/griselbrands-glass-cannon-1/), which appears to be the original brew, looks hilariously vulnerable to disruption of almost any sort. I run U/W Tron with a budget sideboard, and I'm pretty sure this deck would consistently win game one against me only to have me put in my entire board against it. Chalice of the Void beats Pact, Relic of Progenitus beats anything that needs the graveyard to work, Mana Leak is a harder counter than Remand, Ethersworn Canonist wrecks any combo that relies on more than one nonartifact being cast, and Pithing Needle does some damage control if Griselbrand somehow gets past all of the above. I think the only thing in my sideboard that doesn't disrupt this deck is Kataki, War's Wage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370414). And god help you if the other guy is playing Extirpate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370384).

Am I missing something that makes this deck more resilient, or is it as ridiculously hit-and-miss as it looks?

[Fable Wright]

Well I for one thank you for the link. I was looking into quasi-competitive, budget modern decks so that I could have a second deck to lend to friends or give myself some variety, and I already have most of the cards for this thing. I'll have to grab the rest of it, put it together, and test it out.

Also, was looking at that Griselcannon deck. The list I saw (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/griselbrands-glass-cannon-1/), which appears to be the original brew, looks hilariously vulnerable to disruption of almost any sort. I run U/W Tron with a budget sideboard, and I'm pretty sure this deck would consistently win game one against me only to have me put in my entire board against it. Chalice of the Void beats Pact, Relic of Progenitus beats anything that needs the graveyard to work, Mana Leak is a harder counter than Remand, Ethersworn Canonist wrecks any combo that relies on more than one nonartifact being cast, and Pithing Needle does some damage control if Griselbrand somehow gets past all of the above. I think the only thing in my sideboard that doesn't disrupt this deck is Kataki, War's Wage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370414). And god help you if the other guy is playing Extirpate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370384).

Am I missing something that makes this deck more resilient, or is it as ridiculously hit-and-miss as it looks?

Try this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9990203&postcount=180). Rather than going all-in swinging with a Griselbrand, it just uses Griselbrand as a degenerate draw engine with Nourishing Shoal to draw cards with the lifegain, and then putting a Borborygmos in the graveyard, reanimating it with one of the Goryo pieces, and discarding all the useless lands you picked up to bolt your opponent to death. As a backup plan, Through the Breach a Worldspine Wurm or Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[Duck999]

Somehow I managed to create modern slivers (white, green, red) out of a friends deckbuilder. ... Somehow

I built a couple decks on Decked (TCG) and now I can't decide which I want to buy if I want to buy one. If anyone has suggestions for which seem more fun, please suggest.

There is unhinged blue control
or unhinged black removal and/or Donkeys

Black and donkeys cost same as blue control, but if I buy only one I save more money

[Ceridan]

Alright playgrounders, I would like to know, How many of you are annoyed with the price gouging in our hobby? The MSRP of From the Vault: 20 is $39.99. So you would think a markup of 100%, $79.99,...or maybe 200%, $119.99. Nope. They are preselling the set in my area for a minimum of $179.99 at the low end and $249.99 at the high end. It's too bad we can't order direct from Wizards. :smallmad:

[Ninjaman]

That's because it has jace in it. He costs ~ 150 by himself.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Alright playgrounders, I would like to know, How many of you are annoyed with the price gouging in our hobby? The MSRP of From the Vault: 20 is $39.99. So you would think a markup of 100%, $79.99,...or maybe 200%, $119.99. Nope. They are preselling the set in my area for a minimum of $179.99 at the low end and $249.99 at the high end. It's too bad we can't order direct from Wizards. :smallmad:

Something something economics something.

There's low level, kitchen table magic, and high level, Jon Finkel-Kai Budde level winnings magic.

The FTV series is really more or less aimed at the second.

[Androgeus]

Something something economics something.

There's low level, kitchen table magic, and high level, Jon Finkel-Kai Budde level winnings magic.

The FTV series is really more or less aimed at the second.

FTV vaults is aimed more at collectors than tournament players.

[Sohala]

Alright playgrounders, I would like to know, How many of you are annoyed with the price gouging in our hobby? The MSRP of From the Vault: 20 is $39.99. So you would think a markup of 100%, $79.99,...or maybe 200%, $119.99. Nope. They are preselling the set in my area for a minimum of $179.99 at the low end and $249.99 at the high end. It's too bad we can't order direct from Wizards. :smallmad:Even if we could order directly from Wizards they would all be sold out ages ago because they are such a limited print run. Thankfully for me, I am only interested in the Akroma's Vengeance and Cruel Ultimatum, so I should only have to shell out a couple bucks.

[Lpaulb116]

Recently, I built a U/B deck around a Stormtide Leviathan. The goal of the deck is to get out as many flying or islandwalk creatures before turn 8 (or whenever I can cast Stormtide Leviathan. My biggest problem with this deck is that I don't have a lot of fliers with good abilities. Can somebody suggest some good ones?

The deck list should be up sometime tonight if you would like to see it.

[CN the Logos]

Alright playgrounders, I would like to know, How many of you are annoyed with the price gouging in our hobby? The MSRP of From the Vault: 20 is $39.99. So you would think a markup of 100%, $79.99,...or maybe 200%, $119.99. Nope. They are preselling the set in my area for a minimum of $179.99 at the low end and $249.99 at the high end. It's too bad we can't order direct from Wizards. :smallmad:

It's the nature of any game with a secondary market. The logic the store owners are using, as explained to me by a store owner, is this: "if I don't mark it up myself, people will just come in and buy them out within a day. They'll mark them up and resell them online. Therefore, since they're going to be sold at a ridiculous markup regardless of what I do, it might as well be me who benefits from selling at the markup, rather than my competitors." It sucks, but you can't really argue with the logic.

Also, price-gouging. People keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. While the term gets thrown around a lot, price-gouging is legally defined (at least in the US) as involving radical price increases on essential goods/commodities during a state of emergency. You do not need a copy of FtV: 20 to survive. Therefore, it is not price-gouging, because you can always just say "I'm going to spend my money on something else."

Looking at the spoilers for it again, you don't even really need a copy of it to play Magic. Having a Jace the Wallet Sculptor would be cool, but he's only legal in EDH (where he isn't even that good) and Legacy/Vintage. There's also Venser, Shaper Savant, which you can get for around $18 if you really need one. The rest of the box looks like stuff that can be obtained cheaply elsewhere unless you just really love the new art. I'd want a FtV: Dragons Nicol Bolas if I was ever going to make that deck, yeah, but I'm not going to seriously claim that I "need" it. :smallsigh:

[Ceridan]

Thanks for definition, much appreciation.:smallsmile: I thought Jace was now legal in modern, hence why he jumped from $50 to $150???

[Fable Wright]

Thanks for definition, much appreciation.:smallsmile: I thought Jace was now legal in midern, hence why he jumped.from $50 to $150???

...Wait. What. How. Why is he $150?

[Ceridan]

...Wait. What. How. Why is he $150?

No idea...but Foil versions go for $500 or more.

[Fable Wright]

No idea...but Foil versions go for $500 or more.

The foil part I get. The part where he costs more than Modern Masters Tarmogoyf when he's only played in a few very select decks in Vintage and Legacy and is terrible in EDH where Goyf demands a set of himself in almost every Green deck in Legacy and Modern is what's throwing me for a loop.

[Bucky]

The foil part I get. The part where he costs more than Modern Masters Tarmogoyf when he's only played in a few very select decks in Vintage and Legacy and is terrible in EDH where Goyf demands a set of himself in almost every Green deck in Legacy and Modern is what's throwing me for a loop.

Goyf wasn't a mythic.

[RaggedAngel]

The foil part I get. The part where he costs more than Modern Masters Tarmogoyf when he's only played in a few very select decks in Vintage and Legacy and is terrible in EDH where Goyf demands a set of himself in almost every Green deck in Legacy and Modern is what's throwing me for a loop.

There are a lot of reasons, but an enormous part of it is the hype around him. Nicknames like "Jace the Walletbreaker" create a strong consensus that he should cost a crazy amount, even though he doesn't see truly significant play. Third party sellers, like Star City Games, also want him to have a high price because they have more of him in stock and therefore more money to make if he sells for more.

But yeah, none for me, thank you.

[Fable Wright]

Goyf wasn't a mythic.
There was one Goyf in every 60 Future Sight pack. There was one Jace in every 80 Worldwake packs. Worldwake probably had a much higher production value than Future Sight, as a lot of new players were coming in at that time as a result of the NWO and Duel of the Planeswalkers, and it was the expansion with the most and highest value rares. Not seeing what the mythic part has to do with it.

[Seatbelt]

My buddy is getting FTV20 for MSRP from his FLGS. :D

[CN the Logos]

Thanks for definition, much appreciation.:smallsmile: I thought Jace was now legal in modern, hence why he jumped from $50 to $150???

According to Gatherer, he's legal in EDH, Legacy, Vintage, some formats I've never heard of except that I know a few of them are played on MTGO, and Zendikar Block Constructed. Still banned in Modern.

Also, I apologize if I came across as overly snarky in my previous post; I do think it's irritating that we can't get access to products like this for anything less than 500% of MSRP. I just have to save my anger for the stuff that really matters, and in the grand scheme of things, this doesn't. If you don't want to deal with the secondary market, you can always juststart playing a living card game where you get a guaranteed list of cards in each box you buy and thus there's no incentive for a secondary market to send prices sky high. I hear Netrunner's good, I've played a few games of it and enjoyed myself, but haven't had time to get into it seriously.


The foil part I get. The part where he costs more than Modern Masters Tarmogoyf when he's only played in a few very select decks in Vintage and Legacy and is terrible in EDH where Goyf demands a set of himself in almost every Green deck in Legacy and Modern is what's throwing me for a loop.

Sad truth right here, which will probably be the deciding factor in my decision to (not) attempt to purchase FtV: 20. I only play EDH and draft*, and despite his reputation, the Wallet Sculptor isn't good in multiplayer. :smallyuk:

Funny story, tonight at FNM there was a discussion about how Jace should be the next planeswalker to be killed off, preferably ASAP. Between him and Venser, it's like Wizards brought back everything that was annoying about Urza's character without bringing anything that was interesting/entertaining about him. Please WotC, let the ghost of Urza rest in peace. Have Garruk rip out Jace's pancreas and replace him with a blue walker I don't want to throttle. :smallannoyed:




*Going to try making a Shadowborn Apostle deck for Standard, just so I can go to events with my wife if I feel like it. I know it will be absolutely awful, but anything that costs me more than $30 and ten minutes of thought is too much work for Standard. :smallsigh:

[Mystic Muse]

Well, going to get one Tarmogoyf from my cousin, and I should have enough value in my trade binder to get at least one more, maybe two. The third (Fourth overall) will not be easy to obtain without just buying it.

So, what I'm going to do is this. For the fourth one (and the one I'm getting from my cousin at least) instead of spending money on fast food and drinks like I usually would, I'm putting that money towards Goyf. $3.24 (Minimum) a week isn't much, but it'll add up, and I can put more than that away each paycheck for the sake of buying Goyf/s.

Plus, hey, if I got a raise at work, that'd certainly help. :smallsmile:

PLUS, if that plasma center opens close to me, that'll make it SIGNIFICANTLY easier.

[tgva8889]

The foil part I get. The part where he costs more than Modern Masters Tarmogoyf when he's only played in a few very select decks in Vintage and Legacy and is terrible in EDH where Goyf demands a set of himself in almost every Green deck in Legacy and Modern is what's throwing me for a loop.

Actually Jace isn't terrible in EDH. Planeswalkers are in general pretty good in EDH, and Brainstorming every turn isn't any worse in EDH than it is in other constructed formats. People don't play Jace in EDH because he costs $125+, not because he isn't good.

Honestly, I don't know why Wizards sells the From the Vaults at an MSRP of $40. I think almost all of them has a single card worth at least twice that much. I think the complaint if they made the MSRP reflect the secondary market price of the cards inside would be "Why is Wizards selling 20 cards for $250?"

Trading card games are an expensive hobby. I think that's just something we have to accept. As someone who's been getting into a lot of trading card games, Magic is much, much less bad than other games. Sure, some of the cards are really expensive, but you can build a highly competitive deck for $100 if you try hard enough. A lot of good decks in other games are basically impossible to play because key cards are worth $50+.

[Sith_Happens]

PLUS, if that plasma center opens close to me, that'll make it SIGNIFICANTLY easier.

That awkward moment when you realize you aren't giving a second thought at giving blood to pay for Magic cards.

[Mystic Muse]

That awkward moment when you realize you aren't giving a second thought at giving blood to pay for Magic cards.

I want to give plasma for money anyway. There are worse things I could spend it on than a hobby I really enjoy.

[Sith_Happens]

I want to give plasma for money anyway. There are worse things I could spend it on than a hobby I really enjoy.

It's still funny.

[Litewarior]

The foil part I get. The part where he costs more than Modern Masters Tarmogoyf when he's only played in a few very select decks in Vintage and Legacy and is terrible in EDH where Goyf demands a set of himself in almost every Green deck in Legacy and Modern is what's throwing me for a loop.

Partially because JTMS is JTMS and people want to own one if for no other reason than they own a JTMS. Also because when people want to get into legacy, they want to play the winning decks, and few decks are more consistent top 8 in America than Deathblade, which runs around 3 Jaces.

You might as well ask why Moat, Nether Void, The Abyss, Illusionary Mask, etc. are so expensive even though they're run nowhere. The truth of the matter is that collectors do exist, and do have an effect on the secondary market.

[Sohala]

If I man-up a guildgate, does Gate become a creature type? Having thoughts of Rude Awakening + Mirror Entity + Maze's End.

[IthilanorStPete]

If I man-up a guildgate, does Gate become a creature type? Having thoughts of Rude Awakening + Mirror Entity + Maze's End.

No, it's only a land subtype. That never changes due to things happening within a game; it's fixed by the rules.

[CN the Logos]

Actually Jace isn't terrible in EDH. Planeswalkers are in general pretty good in EDH, and Brainstorming every turn isn't any worse in EDH than it is in other constructed formats. People don't play Jace in EDH because he costs $125+, not because he isn't good.

Brainstorming every turn is plenty good, but in a multiplayer game, he can't single-handedly lock down the game the way he can in one-on-one, and there are more chances for an opponent to get rid of him just by virtue of there being more opponents. So while he still does the same thing he does in any other format, the impact of that thing is lessened. If you happen to have him already, he's worth playing. But he's not worth spending $125 just for a Commander deck. Liliana of the Veil is the same way.

In other news: I am totally going to do this (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/griselbrands-witnesses/). It is going to be awful and yet glorious. Feedback to help this thing suck in a fun way rather than a sad way would be greatly appreciated. :smalltongue:

[Dumbledore lives]

Brainstorming every turn is plenty good, but in a multiplayer game, he can't single-handedly lock down the game the way he can in one-on-one, and there are more chances for an opponent to get rid of him just by virtue of there being more opponents. So while he still does the same thing he does in any other format, the impact of that thing is lessened. If you happen to have him already, he's worth playing. But he's not worth spending $125 just for a Commander deck. Liliana of the Veil is the same way.

In other news: I am totally going to do this (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/griselbrands-witnesses/). It is going to be awful and yet glorious. Feedback to help this thing suck in a fun way rather than a sad way would be greatly appreciated. :smalltongue:

Get some Xathrid Necromancers in there. Lose your Apostles get 6 2/2 zombies. Maybe a more targeted kill spell instead of mutilate too, I mean if it's late enough it'll hurt you too, and really there are only so many powerful creatures that you have to worry about once you get a demon out.

[Togath]

any idea why my gamehsop labeled today as "gameday standard"?
I went expecting a prerelease-esc thing(gameday sounded like it meant a set was being released, why else would you call it that?:smallconfused:).. and it turned out to be some weird constructed thing using the "standard" format, whatever the heck that is.
Needless to say, I didn't stay, since I'd never heard of the format.
Also because I didn't bring any cards.

figured I might as well see what the other things this month are;
next week, it's "modern masters draft".. for 35$. Sounds like a bad deal to me.
After that it was lableled as "command casual".. so.. two headed giant?

[Litewarior]

any idea why my gamehsop labeled today as "gameday standard"?
I went expecting a prerelease-esc thing(gameday sounded like it meant a set was being released, why else would you call it that?:smallconfused:).. and it turned out to be some weird constructed thing using the "standard" format, whatever the heck that is.
Needless to say, I didn't stay, since I'd never heard of the format.
Also because I didn't bring any cards.

figured I might as well see what the other things this month are;
next week, it's "modern masters draft".. for 35$. Sounds like a bad deal to me.
After that it was lableled as "command casual".. so.. two headed giant?

Standard is the most basic format, you may use cards from any set between Innistrad and M14 in your deck. Game Day is because it's the event that's going on this weekend, participants get promos, top 8ers get another promo and first place people get placemats.

Modern Masters draft for 35$ isn't bad if they're offering prize support, and even then it's pretty decent. Modern Masters was a set with highlights from the sets between 8th edition and Shards of Alara, with quite a few expensive cards available, and a foil in every pack.

Command Casual means Casual Commander or EDH as opposed to competitive. For more information on Commander go here (http://mtgcommander.net/rules.php).

[tgva8889]

Brainstorming every turn is plenty good, but in a multiplayer game, he can't single-handedly lock down the game the way he can in one-on-one, and there are more chances for an opponent to get rid of him just by virtue of there being more opponents. So while he still does the same thing he does in any other format, the impact of that thing is lessened. If you happen to have him already, he's worth playing. But he's not worth spending $125 just for a Commander deck. Liliana of the Veil is the same way.

I don't think you really said anything that I didn't say. :smallconfused: The issue with Jace in EDH has nothing to do with how good the card is and everything to do with how hard it is to get one. EDH is the kind of format where even if a card was so good that it dominated every game, you wouldn't really have to play it because there's so many options and you only have 1 copy of any particular card.

[Shadow of the Sun]

I'm kind of in a brewing mood.

My format of choice is Modern, and my decktype of choice is control.

UWR looks like it's a very big part of the meta now, so I'd like to see if I can brew up an alternative control deck that might do well in the format (not expecting it to be tier one, or even tier two, but I want to see if I can make something.)

While I'm going to be looking at this myself, does anyone have any ideas?

[tgva8889]

I'm kind of in a brewing mood.

My format of choice is Modern, and my decktype of choice is control.

UWR looks like it's a very big part of the meta now, so I'd like to see if I can brew up an alternative control deck that might do well in the format (not expecting it to be tier one, or even tier two, but I want to see if I can make something.)

While I'm going to be looking at this myself, does anyone have any ideas?

Cruel Ultimatum is still a pretty decent card. Also, if you can make Firemind's Foresight work, that would be pretty awesome.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Cruel Ultimatum is still a pretty decent card. Also, if you can make Firemind's Foresight work, that would be pretty awesome.

I was thinking of looking at a mono-red control; modern has enough cheap land destruction, spot removal, and boardwipes for me to think of the deck as at least semi-viable.

Boros Reckoner is playable as a good creature in mono-red, pyroclasm, for /big/ wipes, blasphemous act...

[Togath]

ah, that's what the thing today was..

I.. sort of wish I'd made a standard format deck(all of mine are modern, excluding my commander, which I think is only usable is casual)

[tgva8889]

I was thinking of looking at a mono-red control; modern has enough cheap land destruction, spot removal, and boardwipes for me to think of the deck as at least semi-viable.

Boros Reckoner is playable as a good creature in mono-red, pyroclasm, for /big/ wipes, blasphemous act...

Cheap land destruction isn't really that useful unless it's one of the only things you are doing or you are doing it at a really good rate. Everything else about this idea seems at least reasonable, though.

[Bucky]

I was thinking of looking at a mono-red control; modern has enough cheap land destruction, spot removal, and boardwipes for me to think of the deck as at least semi-viable.

Boros Reckoner is playable as a good creature in mono-red, pyroclasm, for /big/ wipes, blasphemous act...

How do you beat Gifts Ungiven for Unburial Rites and Iona? Through the Breach Eldrazi? Planeswalkers? Do you have enough LD to keep Tron off hardcast Eldrazi? Can you do anything useful before End of Turn Deceiver Exarch -> Splinter Twin kills you?

On the plus side, I think you have Birthing Pod decks covered by killing all their creatures.

[Shadow of the Sun]

How do you beat Gifts Ungiven for Unburial Rites and Iona? Through the Breach Eldrazi? Planeswalkers? Do you have enough LD to keep Tron off hardcast Eldrazi? Can you do anything useful before End of Turn Deceiver Exarch -> Splinter Twin kills you?

On the plus side, I think you have Birthing Pod decks covered by killing all their creatures.

This is also to tgva8889.

The deck idea I was looking at was mono-red in terms of the manabase, but I'd also use Noxious Revival, because if I'm not using non-basic lands...

I'd be looking at 4x Stone Rain, 4x Molten Rain, AT LEAST 3x Blood Moon, Noxious Revivals, burn, wipes...Faithless Looting would be useful, too.

A turn 2 Blood Moon supplemented with the Rain spells would cripple a lot of decks.

I guess the deck would more be 'land denial' than land destruction, but if I can keep them off their key colours with a combination of blood moon and the rain spells, I think it might work in the current meta.

[CN the Logos]

Get some Xathrid Necromancers in there. Lose your Apostles get 6 2/2 zombies. Maybe a more targeted kill spell instead of mutilate too, I mean if it's late enough it'll hurt you too, and really there are only so many powerful creatures that you have to worry about once you get a demon out.

Yeah, I have one X Necro. I'm just not sure what to cut for it. If I drop below a certain critical mass of Apostles, I might as well not be playing this deck at all. I think I've gone as lean on lands as I can safely go, and I like my current selection of demons, though it might change a bit with playtesting. I really like the idea of using it though. Any ideas on what to cut?

I think the Mutilates need to be mainboard right now, just because of the huge amount of aggro in my local meta. The deck's probably already going to haver problems with aggro decks that rapidly fill the field with creatures before I can grab my demon of choice; I think I need the ability to wipe the whole field to compensate. I'll keep an eye on them during playtesting though.

Thanks for your help. :smallsmile:


I don't think you really said anything that I didn't say. :smallconfused: The issue with Jace in EDH has nothing to do with how good the card is and everything to do with how hard it is to get one. EDH is the kind of format where even if a card was so good that it dominated every game, you wouldn't really have to play it because there's so many options and you only have 1 copy of any particular card.

Pretty much.* The only original dual land I have is a revised Badlands that I got for $35 when a friend of mine was moving and selling stuff to raise money for the move. I have no fetches at all. My win percentage has not, as far as I can tell, suffered for this loss. Would my decks be marginally better with them? Of course. But it's no huge loss.

...You know, looking at the last few exchanges between us, I think we're violently agreeing with each on multiple points. :smalltongue:




*Of course, some cards scale better to multiplayer than others (Jace only gets one Brainstorm per turn regardless of the number of players, whereas Exsanguinate gives you more life the more players that are in the game for it to hit), but yeah, one thing I appreciate about EDH is that you do have some leeway to cut or find substitutions for "staples."

[tgva8889]

Yeah, I play expensive lands but that's because my collection is huge. I feel like I should make a budget deck sometime just to force myself to do some different and not play all the ridiculous cards I sometime play. I mean, we had a deck that played Timetwister! It was a white-bordered theme deck, though, so it was god-awful.

I pretty much only play Jace TMS in decks where the top of my library is really significant. He's pretty underwhelming compared to even a card like Concentrate in most other situations in EDH when you consider what he does in 1-on-1 normal Constructed.

[Lea Plath]

I invite everyone to have a good at drafting my cube!

http://cubetutor.com/draft/713

If you join Cubetutor, you can also build a deck including basic lands, rather than just a pile of cards.

I'm starting to break the symmetry (like cutting stuff like bad man lands, just cause I had 2-3 good manlands) so any feedback would be great

[Fable Wright]

Brainstorming every turn is plenty good, but in a multiplayer game, he can't single-handedly lock down the game the way he can in one-on-one, and there are more chances for an opponent to get rid of him just by virtue of there being more opponents. So while he still does the same thing he does in any other format, the impact of that thing is lessened. If you happen to have him already, he's worth playing. But he's not worth spending $125 just for a Commander deck. Liliana of the Veil is the same way.
Uh, no, you really don't want to run Liliana of the Veil in EDH, even if you have a spare one. She puts a bigger target on your head than almost any other planeswalker (the exceptions being Karn and Nicol Bolas) because she deprives opponents of resources, but not enough resources to make the counterattack difficult. If you're running her for her -2? Run Chainer's/Diabolic Edict and Geth's Verdict instead. Anything forcing everyone to discard will get Liliana and you killed. Plus, terrible against token decks, which are very much a thing in EDH.

[RaggedAngel]

Uh, no, you really don't want to run Liliana of the Veil in EDH, even if you have a spare one. She puts a bigger target on your head than almost any other planeswalker (the exceptions being Karn and Nicol Bolas) because she deprives opponents of resources, but not enough resources to make the counterattack difficult. If you're running her for her -2? Run Chainer's/Diabolic Edict and Geth's Verdict instead. Anything forcing everyone to discard will get Liliana and you killed. Plus, terrible against token decks, which are very much a thing in EDH.

I can't think of a time I've seen a Liliana last to her second turn in my play group. But then again, we're pretty rough on planeswalkers; they usually become top priority unless it's very late-game. I've had people spend two burn spells to kill my Garruk Wildspeaker the turn he came down.

[Sohala]

Uh, no, you really don't want to run Liliana of the Veil in EDH, even if you have a spare one. She puts a bigger target on your head than almost any other planeswalker (the exceptions being Karn and Nicol Bolas) because she deprives opponents of resources, but not enough resources to make the counterattack difficult. If you're running her for her -2? Run Chainer's/Diabolic Edict and Geth's Verdict instead. Anything forcing everyone to discard will get Liliana and you killed. Plus, terrible against token decks, which are very much a thing in EDH.I will support the use of Liliana of the Veil in EDH if you are in white and are running a Sun Titan, other than that, I don't think she should be run.

[Bucky]

Trading card games are an expensive hobby. I think that's just something we have to accept. As someone who's been getting into a lot of trading card games, Magic is much, much less bad than other games. Sure, some of the cards are really expensive, but you can build a highly competitive deck for $100 if you try hard enough. A lot of good decks in other games are basically impossible to play because key cards are worth $50+.

TCGs can go considerably cheaper than Magic. But, as the old saying goes, the 'fair' price in a monopolized market is somewhere between where you start complaining and stop buying.

[Mystic Muse]

So, what do you guys think? Do you think Wizards has succeeded in its goal of creating a more accessible format than legacy when it comes to Modern, or not?

Somehow, I find it kind of hard to believe that Modern is more accessible than Legacy, when it would be cheaper to finish building my Legacy deck (Including duals, Wasteland, Chrome Mox, Bitterblossom and Jitte) and making it viable, than finish building my Modern deck.

[Sith_Happens]

So, what do you guys think? Do you think Wizards has succeeded in its goal of creating a more accessible format than legacy when it comes to Modern, or not?

Somehow, I find it kind of hard to believe that Modern is more accessible than Legacy, when it would be cheaper to finish building my Legacy deck (Including duals, Wasteland, Chrome Mox, Bitterblossom and Jitte) and making it viable, than finish building my Modern deck.

How much of your Legacy deck vs. your Modern deck do you already have? Last I checked, the only things commonly used in Modern that are anywhere near comparable in price to the lands you just named (or to, say, Force of Will) are either Dark Confidant or used just as much in Legacy.

[tgva8889]

Their goal wasn't to make a cheaper format. "Cheaper" and "more accessible" are different things. More people can play Modern than Legacy, and the number of people that can actually play Legacy goes down as time goes on because unfortunately, cards don't last forever. The number of Underground Seas, Volcanic Islands, Tropical Islands, etc. is not increasing and, given Wizards' stance on the Reserved List, is unlikely to ever increase. As a result, only so many people in the world can ever play Legacy. This is not true of Modern, as the cards important to Modern can be reprinted at any time and therefore increase the ability of a player to own enough cards to build a reasonable Modern deck.

As a result, I believe that Modern is more accessible in that more people can play Modern than Legacy. I don't think they ever said their goal was to make playing Modern cheap or cheaper than Legacy, and as has been said many times, Magic is expensive. If you want to be competitive at a high level, it is going to cost you some money. I have no knowledge on the price of cards, so I am not really qualified to argue on that definition of accessibility.

If you are talking about player base, though, more people play Legacy than Modern because there's a Legacy tournament series and there isn't a Modern one. People don't play Modern a lot because there aren't a lot of tournaments for it, whereas people play and innovate in Legacy practically every weekend. As a result, it is simply more beneficial, as a player, for you to complete your Legacy deck than it is to complete your Modern deck. Additionally, because of the way Modern has developed, it is likely more beneficial for you to acquire the cards for a Legacy deck because they will only ever increase in price, so you are more likely to be able to make up your investment down the road. If Wizards wants more people to play Modern than Legacy, then they certainly have some work to do.

Also, isn't Dark Confidant played in Legacy? I don't know how much, but I thought it appeared at a pretty high rate, but I might just be too distant from the Legacy scene.

[Lord Seth]

If you are talking about player base, though, more people play Legacy than Modern because there's a Legacy tournament series and there isn't a Modern one. People don't play Modern a lot because there aren't a lot of tournaments for it, whereas people play and innovate in Legacy practically every weekend. As a result, it is simply more beneficial, as a player, for you to complete your Legacy deck than it is to complete your Modern deck. Additionally, because of the way Modern has developed, it is likely more beneficial for you to acquire the cards for a Legacy deck because they will only ever increase in price, so you are more likely to be able to make up your investment down the road. If Wizards wants more people to play Modern than Legacy, then they certainly have some work to do.
I think there's also a number of problems that Modern as a format has that Legacy doesn't. From Day 1, Modern had the feeling of a beta copy of a program that was somehow released as a full version, and ever since they've been trying to fix the bugs after the fact via bannings. I mean, if you have to ban six cards a mere month after starting up the format, it's pretty clear that you didn't think the original banned list through very well (that, or your banning policy is too harsh--or both). I feel like they really pushed it too far, too fast. Legacy grew gradually into where it is today; they didn't try to have a freaking Pro Tour based on a format that they had created two weeks beforehand. I know this was two years ago, but I feel the missteps they made back then are still permeating into the format.


Also, isn't Dark Confidant played in Legacy? I don't know how much, but I thought it appeared at a pretty high rate, but I might just be too distant from the Legacy scene.
Dark Confidant has been pretty big in Legacy due to Deathrite Shaman. Deathrite Shaman is incredibly powerful, and it's led to a lot more Black/Green decks, and of course those tend to run Dark Confidant.

[CN the Logos]

Yeah, I play expensive lands but that's because my collection is huge. I feel like I should make a budget deck sometime just to force myself to do some different and not play all the ridiculous cards I sometime play.

These (http://thegeneralzone.blogspot.com/2012/08/new-format-alert-dollar-general-edh.html) are the budget deck-building rules my playgroup uses, as a way both to make the game more accessible to newbies and to force ourselves to do new (or least different) things. They're simple, but just saying "your general can't cost more than $1 and the whole thing can't cost more than $40" forces all sorts of interesting choices in the deckbuilding process. We also play more conventional Pauper EDH, where the general can be any uncommon creature and the rest of the deck has to be commons and basic lands. I'm currently running Civilized Scholar//Homicidal Brute for that, and having a lot of fun with it.

...Honestly, if Dr. Jekyll//Mr. Hyde were given a proper name and the legendary supertype, I'd run him as a real general, no other changes needed. I'm considering having a cool proxy made along those lines and asking my group if they'd allow it, but I have other decks to finish and tune, so it won't be anytime soon if I ever get around to it.


Uh, no, you really don't want to run Liliana of the Veil in EDH, even if you have a spare one. She puts a bigger target on your head than almost any other planeswalker (the exceptions being Karn and Nicol Bolas) because she deprives opponents of resources, but not enough resources to make the counterattack difficult. If you're running her for her -2? Run Chainer's/Diabolic Edict and Geth's Verdict instead. Anything forcing everyone to discard will get Liliana and you killed. Plus, terrible against token decks, which are very much a thing in EDH.

The only person I've ever seen play Liliana of the Veil in our playgroup is my wife, and more often than not, it's been irritating but managed to survive a turn or two because it's not the biggest threat on the board. It's also pretty easy to remove planeswalkers without utterly destroying their controller, although since the game has to end at some point anyway, they can often serve has an excuse to aim the hate at a particular player. But I haven't seen Liliana of the Veil hit the table often enough to run statistical analyses on the outcomes, and our playgroup has its own idiosyncrasies to take into account.

In any case, either of the two other Lilianas gives you more bang for the (literal and metaphorical) buck in EDH; I certainly won't dispute that.

[tgva8889]

I think there's also a number of problems that Modern as a format has that Legacy doesn't. From Day 1, Modern had the feeling of a beta copy of a program that was somehow released as a full version, and ever since they've been trying to fix the bugs after the fact via bannings. I mean, if you have to ban six cards a mere month after starting up the format, it's pretty clear that you didn't think the original banned list through very well (that, or your banning policy is too harsh--or both). I feel like they really pushed it too far, too fast. Legacy grew gradually into where it is today; they didn't try to have a freaking Pro Tour based on a format that they had created two weeks beforehand. I know this was two years ago, but I feel the missteps they made back then are still permeating into the format.

Sure, but we are comparing a format that has been around for 2 years to a format that has been around for 9 years (more, if you count Type 1.5 as Legacy). I compared the way Legacy was spawned to the way that Modern was spawned, and it looked like their initial banning philosophies were pretty similar if you ignore the cards that were already banned in Type 1.5. I certainly think Modern has some ways to go before it's really a perfect format, and I agree with your comments, but I'm not really sure it's fair to judge Modern yet. Though it is certainly fair to criticize and disagree with the strategy Wizards is using to support it.

While perhaps having a major tournament be the place to test the format out was a mistake, I think it worked really well for Wizards. The Pro Tour is always the place where untested formats are put in the spotlight, and Pro Tour Philadelphia was actually a pretty exciting tournament to watch. Seeing the pros attack formats we ourselves haven't gotten to play is pretty much half the fun of watching Pro Tour coverage. And, of course, that pro tour made Walking the Planes, which I consider a great addition to Magic. I think if they came up with another format like this, they would do the same thing in a heartbeat, and I think it would probably be the correct decision.

I think there was a reason that they didn't do the same thing with Legacy, although I think if they thought they could have successfully they would have. I forget what the official Wizards response was to the "Why no Legacy PT?" question exactly was, but I remember something about card availability being an issue.

[Lea Plath]

I'm now working on an EDH deck to replace Ghave and I've decided to make something based around the new commander spoiler, the "Grixis Kaalia".

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/innistrads-bane/

This is what I have so far. I'm wanting something fairly powerful, lots of big swingy card effects I can cast for free and ways to abuse the free casting. I'll do the lands last, once I have the card base worked out. Any suggestions?

[Mystic Muse]

How much of your Legacy deck vs. your Modern deck do you already have? Last I checked, the only things commonly used in Modern that are anywhere near comparable in price to the lands you just named (or to, say, Force of Will) are either Dark Confidant or used just as much in Legacy.

Everything except Tarmogoyfs and Thoughtsiezes for my Modern deck.

[Fable Wright]

I'm now working on an EDH deck to replace Ghave and I've decided to make something based around the new commander spoiler, the "Grixis Kaalia".

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/innistrads-bane/

This is what I have so far. I'm wanting something fairly powerful, lots of big swingy card effects I can cast for free and ways to abuse the free casting. I'll do the lands last, once I have the card base worked out. Any suggestions?

You're missing Spellweaver's Volute. Also, maybe consider running cards that prevent you from just dying if people decide to start swinging at you? Also, you're missing Lightning Greaves.

@Mystic Muse: Tarmogoyfs and Thoughtseizes are just as much staples in Legacy as they are in Modern. Quite a few Legacy decks run full sets of both. Legacy is no cheaper a format than Modern.

[Mystic Muse]

@Mystic Muse: Tarmogoyfs and Thoughtseizes are just as much staples in Legacy as they are in Modern. Quite a few Legacy decks run full sets of both. Legacy is no cheaper a format than Modern.


I'm aware.

I think I'm just a bit frustrated. I keep getting people telling me my card choices suck (If I hear Knight of the Reliquary sucks one more time, I'm putting a hole in something.) They tell me, Necra isn't worth playing without Goyf, I don't feel like my deck is in any way safe...and to top it all off, of course there's no place within 50 miles of me that plays Legacy.

I just feel stuck between a rock and a hard place.:smallfrown:

[Lea Plath]

You're missing Spellweaver's Volute. Also, maybe consider running cards that prevent you from just dying if people decide to start swinging at you? Also, you're missing Lightning Greaves.

Spellweaver's Volute seems kinda bad to be honest. I expect to be meeting a lot of GY hate.

And yeah, this is the basic idea, I'm looking at adding propaganda and stuff too.

[Androgeus]

Lightening Greaves seems like a good fit for Jeska, getting to cast one of the exiled spells on the turn you cast her is something you really want to do.

Oh also my favourite blue spell - Knowledge Exploitation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152664)

[Fable Wright]

I'm aware.

I think I'm just a bit frustrated. I keep getting people telling me my card choices suck (If I hear Knight of the Reliquary sucks one more time, I'm putting a hole in something.) They tell me, Necra isn't worth playing without Goyf, I don't feel like my deck is in any way safe...and to top it all off, of course there's no place within 50 miles of me that plays Legacy.

I just feel stuck between a rock and a hard place.:smallfrown:

Who thinks Knight of the Reliquary sucks? 0.o It's a powerful toolbox creature that has the benefit of getting a permanent +2/+2 each turn it doesn't attack that fixes your mana, can accelerate you, and usually comes down as a 3/3 or larger, can draw you cards with Horizon Canopy, bring out a Tectonic Edge or Ghost Quarter, and opens up sideboard options like Bojuka Bog. She's not quite as good without Karakas or Maze of Ith, but she's still excellent. And what do you mean by Necra? Necra Sanctuary? Except that isn't legal for Modern... do you mean people are telling you not to go Junk in Modern without Goyf? Admittedly, Goyf is the single best option for the beatdown plan, but without him, you can still make a decent midrange deck (though Goyf would be very good there) or a solid to excellent control deck (see here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10565794&postcount=1140)) that doesn't actually want Tarmogoyfs. Alternatively, cut down on the black and go G/W Hatebears, where Goyf just isn't that good (as he isn't fed by Thoughtseize/Inquisition).


Spellweaver's Volute seems kinda bad to be honest. I expect to be meeting a lot of GY hate.

And yeah, this is the basic idea, I'm looking at adding propaganda and stuff too.

Really, though, it's worth it. You're casting one or more sorceries every turn, and each time, you get one Instant from any graveyard. The benefits are just too good to ignore. At the very worst, you're turning every single Sorcery in your deck into a removal spell. At best, you're drawing tons of cards with Opportunity, getting an additional attack step with Savage Beating (and another spell off your commander), Bituminous Blast for great card advantage, free Prophetic Bolts, Searing Winds, Spinal Embraces, and so on.

For sorceries: Sorin's Vengeance might have a place in your deck. Also Army of the Damned, Inundate, Decree of Pain, Promise of Power, Recurring Insight, Mystic Speculation, and Time Warp and variations thereof if you like infinite combos.

[Mystic Muse]

Who thinks Knight of the Reliquary sucks? 0.o It's a powerful toolbox creature that has the benefit of getting a permanent +2/+2 each turn it doesn't attack that fixes your mana, can accelerate you, and usually comes down as a 3/3 or larger, can draw you cards with Horizon Canopy, bring out a Tectonic Edge or Ghost Quarter, and opens up sideboard options like Bojuka Bog. She's not quite as good without Karakas or Maze of Ith, but she's still excellent. And what do you mean by Necra? Necra Sanctuary? Except that isn't legal for Modern... do you mean people are telling you not to go Junk in Modern without Goyf? Admittedly, Goyf is the single best option for the beatdown plan, but without him, you can still make a decent midrange deck (though Goyf would be very good there) or a solid to excellent control deck (see here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10565794&postcount=1140)) that doesn't actually want Tarmogoyfs. Alternatively, cut down on the black and go G/W Hatebears, where Goyf just isn't that good (as he isn't fed by Thoughtseize/Inquisition.)

Sorry, I call my deck "Necra" because I dislike calling it "Junk"

I'll take a look at your link later. Have an appointment soon.

[Lea Plath]

That would be me. KoTR isn't as good as it once was, because of Ooze/Deathrite being able to neuter it. The value also isn't as strong in modern as in legacy as you can't GSZ for Scryb Ranger and spam her ability and the lands you can hit aren't as good.

She is OK but there are just better cards at the moment.

And I don't think I will run the enchantment. I am thinking of running cards that shuffle my library back into deck to recast them all.

[Fable Wright]

That would be me. KoTR isn't as good as it once was, because of Ooze/Deathrite being able to neuter it. The value also isn't as strong in modern as in legacy as you can't GSZ for Scryb Ranger and spam her ability and the lands you can hit aren't as good.

She is OK but there are just better cards at the moment.

And I don't think I will run the enchantment. I am thinking of running cards that shuffle my library back into deck to recast them all.

Fair enough, though against decks that don't run Ooze/Deathrite (UWR, D&T, Living End, Burn, Scapeshift, and so on) it's still decent to great. Against UWR, it's a 3 mana creature big enough to take multiple burn spells to deal with it, and can save other creatures with Sejiri Steppe, if you run that tech. Against D&T, with their Ghost Quarters and Tectonic Edges, it's going to be big enough to take down multiple copies of their creatures. Against burn, it's again very hard to deal with, great at blocking, and it can help alleviate the pain of a fetch + shock manabase by tapping at the end of burn's turn for the appropriate lands. Also makes you stronger against Blood Moon by helping to fetch basics after initial fixing is done. Against Scapeshift it's still a big beater and it fetches Tectonic Edges to slow them down.

Also, as long as you're not shuffling everyone's graveyards into their libraries a la Time Spiral, Volute doesn't really care. It's any instant in any graveyard. If you want to avoid exiling your best Instants, then use someone else's, but the value is still great.

Seriously, though. It's one slot in a 100 card deck non-toolbox deck (and on that note, Mystical Teachings should be in here, and maybe Merchant Scroll) that has 27 slots to fill. The worst that could happen is that it's an easy cut after the first few times you play with it. The best is it's a sleeper powerhouse that gains you enough incremental advantage to take over games without being inherently oppressive, or at least fun.

[bobthe6th]

I really like the idea of using rokdos to make the other demons castable normally.



Yeah, I have one X Necro. I'm just not sure what to cut for it. If I drop below a certain critical mass of Apostles, I might as well not be playing this deck at all. I think I've gone as lean on lands as I can safely go, and I like my current selection of demons, though it might change a bit with playtesting. I really like the idea of using it though. Any ideas on what to cut?

Issue it the necromancer is a 3CMC creature that will clog up your hand... were you want to be dropping demons fast. Really also, I don't see going under 30 apostles. I have played a few games with a 30 apostle deck, and even then I have an issue with getting enough fast enough.



I think the Mutilates need to be mainboard right now, just because of the huge amount of aggro in my local meta. The deck's probably already going to have problems with aggro decks that rapidly fill the field with creatures before I can grab my demon of choice; I think I need the ability to wipe the whole field to compensate. I'll keep an eye on them during playtesting though.

Mutilate, sign in blood, reaper, Grisslebrand, murder are rotating out in a little more then a month. Doom blade isn't in standard as of M14...
I had the same issue in making a simaler deck.

Saddly Sign in Blood has no good replacement. Possibly alter's reap. Grislebrand is replaceable, Though I can see using more Rokdos.

You are running a lot of demons, which is a bit odd. You really only need a couple, and are unlikely to pop more then one apostle summon. Also, the more demons you have the more likely it is that they will clog your hand. I could see running 3 immortal servitude. getting 6 apostles is really the goal here, not spamming the effect.

I could see (if you had the cards) cutting down to 1 lord, 1 rokdos, 2 shadow born, 6 spells, and 30 apostles.

[Lord Seth]

Sure, but we are comparing a format that has been around for 2 years to a format that has been around for 9 years (more, if you count Type 1.5 as Legacy).
Type 1.5 wasn't Legacy. It was just an extension of Type 1/Vintage that happened to be kinda similar to Legacy.

But the total number of cards banned in Legacy in that 9-year span is seven (six if you don't count Imperial Seal because it would have been banned had Portal Three Kingdoms been in the format at the start). In the two years it's existed, Modern has experienced eleven bans. Despite existing for four times as many years, Legacy has managed to have fewer bans than Modern did.

I'm not sure if the issue with Modern's starting list was that they had too many or too few cards (my guess is it's the former), but one way or the other it's pretty obvious it wasn't thought through very well and the format is still suffering for it. Maybe not as badly as it suffered early on, but it's still worse off now than if they had done it right in the first place.


While perhaps having a major tournament be the place to test the format out was a mistake, I think it worked really well for Wizards. The Pro Tour is always the place where untested formats are put in the spotlight, and Pro Tour Philadelphia was actually a pretty exciting tournament to watch. Seeing the pros attack formats we ourselves haven't gotten to play is pretty much half the fun of watching Pro Tour coverage.
But that's exactly the problem. Any excitement of "oh wow, look at them playing in this new format!" is neutered when you consider the high number of bans that came right afterwards, meaning you can't actually play the format anymore. Indeed, from what I can tell, those bannings caused Modern to lose significant popularity.

[Pendulous]

In other news: I am totally going to do this (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/griselbrands-witnesses/). It is going to be awful and yet glorious. Feedback to help this thing suck in a fun way rather than a sad way would be greatly appreciated. :smalltongue:

DO you even need the Blood Crypts and Dragonskull Summits in there? You're not gonna be hardcasting the demons.

[Mystic Muse]

Does anybody have a decklist for the kind of deck that got Survival of the Fittest banned in Legacy?

[bobthe6th]

http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Legacy_Survival_deck

right off google. Seems the main issue is Survival+Squee=free card each turn for a G every turn.

Can see how that would get banned...

[tgva8889]

Type 1.5 wasn't Legacy. It was just an extension of Type 1/Vintage that happened to be kinda similar to Legacy.

But the formats were very similar when they began. Type 1.5 philosophically was Legacy, in that it was an eternal format that allowed all cards except those cards that were banned. The formation of Legacy significantly changed the banned list, but they knew the philosophy they were going for when they made Legacy and they had years of direct research to know that the change would work. Not that the separation between the formats wasn't beneficial, but Legacy treads very much the same ground that Type 1.5 did. Type 1.5 => Legacy was less creating a new format and more modifying an existing format.


But the total number of cards banned in Legacy in that 9-year span is seven (six if you don't count Imperial Seal because it would have been banned had Portal Three Kingdoms been in the format at the start). In the two years it's existed, Modern has experienced eleven bans. Despite existing for four times as many years, Legacy has managed to have fewer bans than Modern did.

Okay. But Legacy started as a stable format. I don't think Modern is a stable format; if I sounded like I was arguing that, I apologize because I didn't mean to. Modern has stability problems and people are complaining a lot about them. Wizards apparently does listen to those complaints, as complaints are one of the reasons Second Sunrise is banned.


I'm not sure if the issue with Modern's starting list was that they had too many or too few cards (my guess is it's the former), but one way or the other it's pretty obvious it wasn't thought through very well and the format is still suffering for it. Maybe not as badly as it suffered early on, but it's still worse off now than if they had done it right in the first place.

What would have been doing it right in the first place? The banned list they made was determined from Gavin Verhey's work on Overextended and their previous results from the original Extended format. They did what they could with the resources they had available.

People certainly do still play Modern and certainly still enjoy it. I don't think they would have made Modern an FNM format if they didn't think people actually wanted to play the format. I don't know what the metric for suffering is and I haven't seen any specific reports on it, but from what I understand Modern was pretty interesting while it was a PTQ format.


But that's exactly the problem. Any excitement of "oh wow, look at them playing in this new format!" is neutered when you consider the high number of bans that came right afterwards, meaning you can't actually play the format anymore. Indeed, from what I can tell, those bannings caused Modern to lose significant popularity.

Wizards doesn't always hold the Pro Tour with the expectation that people will be playing the same format afterward. For example, no one plays Block Constructed except on Magic Online and at the Pro Tour. It's not even a PTQ format anymore, because Block Constructed is often times just a worse and less interesting format than Standard. Yet we have yet to go a year without a Block Constructed Pro Tour.

I don't know anything about the bannings being responsible for Modern's loss of popularity, but yes, it certainly makes things harder for the average player when you can't just pick a deck that top 8'd the last major event because it's no longer legal. Except that happens to us all the time, every time Standard rotates, and the majority of people are still excited about that. I can understand the "I don't want to invest in this because the bannings might tank my value" but I don't understand bannings making Modern less interesting.

I do agree with you that Modern has issues. But I don't see the mistakes that they made in the creation of the format, because it is impossible to draw that a change in their decision at the format's creation would have led to the format being more or less appreciated by the community. I couldn't tell you what decisions they should have made, because I couldn't tell you what changing any of their decisions would have done to the format.

[IthilanorStPete]

Does anybody have a decklist for the kind of deck that got Survival of the Fittest banned in Legacy?


http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Legacy_Survival_deck

right off google. Seems the main issue is Survival+Squee=free card each turn for a G every turn.

Can see how that would get banned...

That's a pre-Vengevine list; it actually wasn't all that great in Legacy. (It's a high-powered format) This (https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/514) is a much more streamlined and aggressive version with Vengevine; development along these lines led to Survival's banning. Also see the latter half of this article (http://www.channelfireball.com/home/recurring-nightmares-optimism/) for some historical overview and context.

[Ichneumon]

So, I have a new 'peasant deck' planned, for casual play and I was wondering if you guys could give me some feedback and/or advise.

Basically, it's a black/blue deck, focussing on death touch & counterspelling. Since, almost all my permanents are multicolored, I can count on both the Esper Stormblades and Grixis Grimblades almost always being 3/2 and having their abilities.

Creatures
1 drops:
4 x Oona’s Gatewarden 2/1: Defender, flying, Wither

2 drops:
4x Tidehollow Strix 2/1: Flying Deathtouch
3x Esper Stormblade 2/1: becomes flying and 3/2 if you control another multicolored creature
4x Grixis Grimblade 2/1: becomes deathtouch and 3/2 if you control another multicolored creature

3 drops:
3x Diregraf Captain U 2/2: deathtouch, other zombies you control get +1/+1, and when another zombie dies opponent loses 1 life
1x Ashenmoor Gouger U 4/4: can’t block.
1x Vampire Nighthawk U 2/3: flying deathtouch, lifelink

Non-creature spells:

1 drops:
3x Deviant Glee, Enchanted creature gets +2/+1

2 drops:
4x Mana Leak, counter spell unless controller plays 3

3drops
1x Mistvein Borderpost
1x Pilfered Plans
3x Recoil

4 drops
4x Helm of the Ghastlord

Lands:
4x Rakdos Carnarium
8x islands
8x swamps
4x Dimir guildgate

[tgva8889]

What is your definition of Peasant? You have a lot more uncommons than would typically be allowed in Peasant.

Is there a reason you're playing Rakdos Carnarium over a different land? It seemed like an odd choice of Karoo to me.

Ashenmoor Gouger just seems weird in this deck. I feel like there are better options for the style of deck you're trying to play. You also don't have that many Zombies to make Diergraf Captain really worth the space. Instead of these cards, I would suggest something like Wasp Lancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153967).

Deviant Glee is not what you want. Your complete lack of removal suggests to me that what you're really looking for is some good removal spells. My favorite in UB is Agony Warp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220454), which serves a lot of useful purposes when you're trying to race. There are certainly other options, however.

Oona Gatewarden is pretty bad for your aggressive deck. I would instead play something like Judge's Familiar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=289221), which fits with your evasive aggression theme.

Also, you can link to cards, which is super helpful! Or you can use one of the sites other people have used to build decks which automatically link cards.

[Pendulous]

So, these two Theros cards are legit now? http://www.mtgsalvation.com/theros-spoiler.html

Not big on the hydra. He can only use his ability once. For a mythic, that's a pretty crappy card. And it's "xx" for a cost. What are the chances you're going to get more than three or four counters on him? We already have creatures with repeatable (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222114) fight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240154), and a much better one at multiple fights at once. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191064)

The other card is good. I always enjoy seeing the word "trample", no matter where it's at.

[Fable Wright]

So, these two Theros cards are legit now? http://www.mtgsalvation.com/theros-spoiler.html

Not big on the hydra. He can only use his ability once. For a mythic, that's a pretty crappy card. And it's "xx" for a cost. What are the chances you're going to get more than three or four counters on him? We already have creatures with repeatable (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222114) fight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240154), and a much better one at multiple fights at once. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191064)

The other card is good. I always enjoy seeing the word "trample", no matter where it's at.

The mechanics are the bit I find interesting. Heroic and Monstrous are both interesting for limited; more pump spells in W/R, more spell-like creatures in B/G. I like it. I also think that the hydra could be pretty good. You play it, leave mana up, and then activate the ability to shoot a few creatures down as a control mechanism. Lategame in a ramp deck, which very well may be a great archetype in Theros, he clears the board, gets huge, and acts as a 1-2 turn clock. I'd give it a shot before dismissing it.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, still need to pay my cousin some more before it's officially mine, but I actually do have a Tarmogoyf I can use down in Gencon. One is better than none, right?

[Pendulous]

Well, still need to pay my cousin some more before it's officially mine, but I actually do have a Tarmogoyf I can use down in Gencon. One is better than none, right?

I don't like having only one of a card unless it's a Legendary, and even then, I prefer having two.

So, all my decks are usually bad but fun, which is good for me, because I like having fun. One I've kind of worked on is a mono-red ping deck. It is what it sounds like. Unfortunately, I don't have nearly all the cards I want, and of course, it's not going to be VERY good if I do. But here's what I got so far.

3x Cinder Wall (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=243466)
3x Torpid Moloch (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=89004) Because this deck lacks in one-drops, so needs defenders while you get the real stuff
4x Prodigal Pyromancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205231)
4x Cunning Sparkmage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201563)
2x Kumano, Master Yamabushi (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=78964)
4x Viashino Fangtail (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=87974)
3x Vulshok Sorceror (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270806)
4x Lightning Bolt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=234704)
2x Kamahl, Pit Fighter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106398)
4x Spikeshot Elder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spikeshot%20Elder)
2x Jeska, Warrior Adept (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=36451)
4x Brimstone Mage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193442)
4x Seething Song (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=243487)
2x Koth of the Hammer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=266362)

Seems like it could be really fun, and my friends hate it when I play the current version. Seems to be the one deck I want to improve on, over any of my others. Keep in mind it's super casual. Also, Spikeshot Elder seems a waste without any kind of buffs, and Spikeshot Goblin addition would cause the same issue.

[Narkis]

So, these two Theros cards are legit now?

They're no more legit than they were when first spoiled. The guy who first revealed them only said he "overheard from a reliable source", and that doesn't strike me as very legit. MTGsalvation has been wrong in the past about similar rumours.

[Fable Wright]

Well, still need to pay my cousin some more before it's officially mine, but I actually do have a Tarmogoyf I can use down in Gencon. One is better than none, right?
One down, three to go. I won't lie and say that it's enough, but will say I was stuck on one Tarmogoyf for close to 2 years now and know how you feel. And then suddenly two people in the last week show up with Tarmogoyfs for sale/trade that I can actually afford after I shelled out for a second on Ebay. My recommendation would be to run Scavenging Oozes in the slots you have reserved for the other Goyfs.


They're no more legit than they were when first spoiled. The guy who first revealed them only said he "overheard from a reliable source", and that doesn't strike me as very legit. MTGsalvation has been wrong in the past about similar rumours.
Thing is, they're right more often than they're wrong, and I don't believe they've been wrong about keyworded mechanics before. Plus, in the confirmation/discussion threads, there are multiple sources confirming that these are real, so it's a good chance it's not a bluff.

The actual mechanics are a bit unclear, though; no one knows if it's X damage divided, or X damage dealt to any number of target creatures and then they hit the Hydra. And it's unsure whether the limitation is "activate only once" or "activate when there are no counters on Polukranos."

Also? Almost all early leaks are "overheard from a reliable source." When the reliable source gets listed, they get fired and/or suspended from DCI tournaments.

[Narkis]

Thing is, they're right more often than they're wrong, and I don't believe they've been wrong about keyworded mechanics before. Plus, in the confirmation/discussion threads, there are multiple sources confirming that these are real, so it's a good chance it's not a bluff.

I'll admit I skipped most of that thread, but my impression was that it'd been confirmed only by the OP, who has no history of accurate spoilers, provided no proof, and got the wording on the card dead wrong. This has all the hallmarks of being a hoax. If it's since been confirmed by someone more reliable, my scepticism will be lessened.


The actual mechanics are a bit unclear, though; no one knows if it's X damage divided, or X damage dealt to any number of target creatures and then they hit the Hydra. And it's unsure whether the limitation is "activate only once" or "activate when there are no counters on Polukranos."

Also? Almost all early leaks are "overheard from a reliable source." When the reliable source gets listed, they get fired and/or suspended from DCI tournaments.

No, almost all early leaks are the "reliable source" posting himself, and providing either the picture of the leaked card, or the exact text. And there's always a post by a moderator saying "This guy is legit". This case is hearsay, and can't be considered accurate until we have independent confirmation.

[Mystic Muse]

I don't like having only one of a card unless it's a Legendary, and even then, I prefer having two. Same, unless I'm running gifts, in which case I only want one, but in this case, it's because one is all I can get right now.


One down, three to go.*I won't lie and say that it's enough, but will say I was stuck on one Tarmogoyf for close to 2 years now and know how you feel. And then suddenly two people in the last week show up with Tarmogoyfs for sale/trade that I can actually afford after I shelled out for a second on Ebay. My recommendation would be to run Scavenging Oozes in the slots you have reserved for the other Goyfs.


I may be able to get a hold of one scavenging ooze, but don't want to spend the money beyond that. I'm trying to save as much money as I can for Goyfs, so buying multiple scavenging oozes is a bit contrary to that goal.

[Androgeus]

No, almost all early leaks are the "reliable source" posting himself, and providing either the picture of the leaked card, or the exact text. And there's always a post by a moderator saying "This guy is legit". This case is hearsay, and can't be considered accurate until we have independent confirmation.

I believe the guy who has posted these cards is the same one who leaked Maze's End early, which is what is making people believe he is legit.

[Fable Wright]

I'll admit I skipped most of that thread, but my impression was that it'd been confirmed only by the OP, who has no history of accurate spoilers, provided no proof, and got the wording on the card dead wrong. This has all the hallmarks of being a hoax. If it's since been confirmed by someone more reliable, my scepticism will be lessened.

You can read through the thread, but there are at least 4-5 people who confirmed it from 'reliable sources', so common consensus is that that's the general gist of the abilities. Three different sources posted 3 different texts for the card, all along the same lines.

They all have some way to prevent the ability from being used more than once conventionally, either by blocking use if there are counters on it (much more likely) or just being one-use only, and an XXG ability that puts X +1/+1 counters on the Hydra and deals X damage to multiple targets, who each deal damage equal to their power to the Hydra. It's unclear whether this is X damage to any number of targets or X damage divided among any number of targets, but judging by the fact that they all deal damage, the FFL allegedly being worried about the Hydra, 2 of the 3 texts having undivided damage, and the fact that they chose this card to make a mythic rare, called it the "World Eater" and used it as the front card of a promo deck all point to the X damage being undivided. In which case, it's a hell of an amazing card.

[Androgeus]

On Theros Mechanic


They all have some way to prevent the ability from being used more than once conventionally, either by blocking use if there are counters on it (much more likely) or just being one-use only
I'm more a fan of "can't be used if ~ has counters on it". One use only has massive memory issues as it has no way to show it has been used up.
I guess having to have all monstrosity abilities put a counter on themselves does back you in to a corner mechanically though.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, going to try to succeed at the "Win a Box" events at Gencon tomorrow. I'll play one, and see how it goes. Wish me luck!

[Volatar]

It has begun. Tomorrow I will introduce my sister to magic. :smallamused:

Then I will just have to rope my dad in and I will have consistent opponents for a while.

Finally.

[RaggedAngel]

It has begun. Tomorrow I will introduce my sister to magic. :smallamused:

Then I will just have to rope my dad in and I will have consistent opponents for a while.

Finally.

Just make sure to take it slow and have both of you use simple decks with straightforward cards. No need to bust out Eggs to show off to a first timer (not that I think you would, but because I've seen someone do exactly that).

[Volatar]

Just make sure to take it slow and have both of you use simple decks with straightforward cards. No need to bust out Eggs to show off to a first timer (not that I think you would, but because I've seen someone do exactly that).

Of course. I have taught 4 people to play over the last 9 months. Three of them had already previously been introduced to the game by another person (the same one for all three) in the following manner:

1:Teach basic rules
2:Hand full complexity deck
3:Play
4:Pull complex rules out of hat
5:Consistently trash new player

All three of them did not want to play the game again.

Somehow this person enjoyed this process. I don't understand people like that.

I managed to properly teach all these people and they enjoy the game now.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Re: Teaching people how to play:
Personally, I build a "Training" deck, which usually includes, in order of importance:


At least Two Colours
Creatures
Instants (Preferably combat tricks)
Sorceries
Auras or Equipment
non-Aura Enchantments or non-Equipment Artifacts

In order to give them all the major card types to play with, learn how things work, including spell speed/combat tricks, to teach them about different coloured mana, et cetera.
Then we usually play a couple of games with our hands revealed (And I take first go) while I talk them through what everything does and how turn order works, playing very slowly and deliberately. I tend to "let" them win the first "game".

When they're feeling confident that they have ahandle on rules and card interactions, we shuffle up and play a normal game -- roll for first turn, hands hidden as they should be, the works, while I carefully coach them through card interactions and patiently answer their questions (Like "Wait -- does "flash" mean I can cast at the end of your turn in order to keep my lands open?" which warrants them a hearty attaboy/girl).
I don't give them bad advice and/or the wrong rules, but I also don't take it easy on them during this real game, and I try really really hard to not let them asking questions about things in their hand affect how I'm playing.

A Red/Green Bloodrush deck is choice for introducing people to the game.

[Sohala]

Buy some core set packs, and pack war with them. They get the thrill of opening packs, learning things and randomness.

[Volatar]

Re: Teaching people how to play:
Personally, I build a "Training" deck, which usually includes, in order of importance:

snip



Good suggestion


Buy some core set packs, and pack war with them. They get the thrill of opening packs, learning things and randomness.

Not sure how to do that. Plus I already know how to play, she doesn't, and I know and have portions of the M14 core set already so I dunnow...

[Sohala]

Not sure how to do that. Plus I already know how to play, she doesn't, and I know and have portions of the M14 core set already so I dunnow...Take a pack each, open them, but don't look in them. Toss the token slot card, add five lands of each type, play.

[tgva8889]

Intro Packs, which are still produced, are actually designed for the purposes of being a player's first deck, so those are usually a good choice. I believe the deck lists for those are online, you can probably easily reproduce one if you have a bunch of M14 cards.

[Lord Ruby34]

Well, going to try to succeed at the "Win a Box" events at Gencon tomorrow. I'll play one, and see how it goes. Wish me luck!

It looks like I'll be headed to Gencon tomorrow, for the first time. What types of events are there going to be?

Also, Luck. :smallsmile:

[RaggedAngel]

Take a pack each, open them, but don't look in them. Toss the token slot card, add five lands of each type, play.

I've heard anywhere from three to five lands of each type for pack wars, but I usually use three and have a pretty good (if clunky) time. Wouldn't you be really flooded with five of each type?

[Mystic Muse]

It looks like I'll be headed to Gencon tomorrow, for the first time. What types of events are there going to be?

Also, Luck. :smallsmile:

I don't actually know, didn't get around to them todday. You can check on their website though.

Got a cell number or something? We could meet up if you're interested.

[Volatar]

Intro Packs, which are still produced, are actually designed for the purposes of being a player's first deck, so those are usually a good choice. I believe the deck lists for those are online, you can probably easily reproduce one if you have a bunch of M14 cards.

I bought the R/U M14 intro when M14 came out actually.


Take a pack each, open them, but don't look in them. Toss the token slot card, add five lands of each type, play.

Hehe. That sounds like fun. Might do that sometime.

[Sohala]

I've heard anywhere from three to five lands of each type for pack wars, but I usually use three and have a pretty good (if clunky) time. Wouldn't you be really flooded with five of each type?Sorry it has been awhile since playing it, it is three instead of five.

[RaggedAngel]

Sorry it has been awhile since playing it, it is three instead of five.

Huzzah, I was correct. I love being correct. :smallwink:

With that said, I don't see any reason you couldn't play with four or five lands of each type. You'd just have a nearly 2:1 land ratio, which might make for very slow or inconsistent games.

[Lord Ruby34]

I don't actually know, didn't get around to them todday. You can check on their website though.

Got a cell number or something? We could meet up if you're interested.

No, my friends flaked out on me at the last minute. Looks like I'm missing it again. Blah.

[Mystic Muse]

No, my friends flaked out on me at the last minute. Looks like I'm missing it again. Blah.

Oh well, maybe next year.

[Lord Ruby34]

Oh well, maybe next year.

Hopefully.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Hey all, I've not been to this thread in...a while, but I want to start working on a...theoretical deck. One I intend to fit post-rotation, until I know what Theros has going on in it.

I want to create a deck that utilizes Archangel of Thune and Kalonian Hydra (I've got four of the hydra for reference) but wondering where's the best starting point to begin with on doing this!

[Litewarior]

Hey all, I've not been to this thread in...a while, but I want to start working on a...theoretical deck. One I intend to fit post-rotation, until I know what Theros has going on in it.

I want to create a deck that utilizes Archangel of Thune and Kalonian Hydra (I've got four of the hydra for reference) but wondering where's the best starting point to begin with on doing this!

The first thing you have to think about is what format, Standard Modern, Legacy, EDH, etc. I'm guessing you're going with standard.

Then you have to think about which archetype it'll fit into. Is it going to be an aggro deck? Probably not with Archangel. Is it going to be a control deck? Probably not with Hydra. So we're going with a midrangey deck here.

Next thing to think about is if you want a theme or not. Do you want it to have a lifegain theme? Lots of creatures then Archangel to pump them all? Or just general goodstuff theme?

Next thing to ponder is colors. Since you're playing both Archangel and Hydra, you'll be in GW for sure. If you're midrange there's little to no disadvantage to adding a third colour, so you have to choose between Red Black or Blue, analyzing what each colour will give you as opposed to the others. I'm not an expert on what each colour does in standard, but in general, red gives removal and some reach in the form of burn, blue gives card draw and control in the form of counterspells, and black gives unconditional removal and discard.

Almost done! Now it's time to figure out the mainboard cards. You want to make sure to have some sort of curve, though if you're midrange you'll have ramp so the curve can be at a higher level than normal. Find the best cards to fit your theme, or the best cards in general and figure out which ones are the most important that fit the curve. In midrange you want to have a decent mixture of ramp and threats, and possibly removal.

The last thing to think about is the sideboard. This is the trickiest and most flexible part of your deck, because you can alter it to face whatever meta you might be fighting. Are you having to deal with a lot of control decks? Then Burning Earth would be a good card to have as a 4 of in the board, but it would be pretty bad if you have to face a lot of aggro decks. Also, figure out what your deck is weakest to. Having a lot of trouble with aggro? Put anti aggro cards in the board. Trouble with control? Anti control cards. Trouble with other midrange? Anti midrange cards. But make sure that you aren't sacrificing too many percentage points from one matchup to be more able to win another. Always be willing to change the sideboard, it should never be set in stone.

[Ichneumon]

-stuff-

Thanks for the helpful advise. I'll look into my deck more closely and next time, will format my post better!:smallsmile:

Question: Do any of you know a card that allows you to force an opponent to block an attack with a certain creature?

[Androgeus]

Question: Do any of you know a card that allows you to force an opponent to block an attack with a certain creature?

There's the provoke mechanic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?text=+[provoke]), and there's also Grappling Hook (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=192220).

[Istari]

Thanks for the helpful advise. I'll look into my deck more closely and next time, will format my post better!:smallsmile:

Question: Do any of you know a card that allows you to force an opponent to block an attack with a certain creature?

There's also the lure (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[All]+[creatures]+[able]+[to]+[block]||text=+[All]+[creatures]+[able]+[to]+[block])cards

[Volatar]

Thanks for the helpful advise. I'll look into my deck more closely and next time, will format my post better!:smallsmile:

Question: Do any of you know a card that allows you to force an opponent to block an attack with a certain creature?

Prey Upon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=271366) from the M13 and M14 core sets as well might work depending on what you want to do.

Edit: also these
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370743
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240154
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=368988

[Pendulous]

Thanks for the helpful advise. I'll look into my deck more closely and next time, will format my post better!:smallsmile:

Question: Do any of you know a card that allows you to force an opponent to block an attack with a certain creature?

I'm fond of Master Warcraft (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247384)

[tgva8889]

Prey Upon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=271366) from the M13 and M14 core sets as well might work depending on what you want to do.

It's not in M14, but it is in Innistrad.

[Zombimode]

Question: Do any of you know a card that allows you to force an opponent to block an attack with a certain creature?

Hey, Odric (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=259670), there is someone wanting to talk to you :smallamused:

[Narkis]

You mean Captain Noblocks (http://manadeprived.com/comics/durdling-around-the-tale-of-captain-noblocks/), right? :smallamused:

[Duos]

Well, it looks like spoiler season has officially started (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/261). Discuss; but remember to keep spoiler discussions in quotes.

[Sith_Happens]

Huh, turns out the real version of Monstrosity is the one that changes the long-term state of the permanent in a way with no definite physical representation. IIRC that's not something they've done in quite some time, even when it meant making Trait Doctoring awful.

[Shadow of the Sun]

As Lea Plath said to me in a private discussion, Destructive Revelry is going to be an excellent sideboard card in Scapeshift- it definitely beats out Nature's Claim or Ancient Grudge.

All in all, I really like the 'Heroic' mechanic, if that will be the overall theme: 'whenever you target X, y happens to the rest of your creatures'.

Also, I like the pegasus.

[Lord Seth]

Cavalry Pegasus makes me wonder if they're going to have more Human tribal cards, because the main reason to bother with that, Champion of the Parish, is rotating out.

Of course, it's not like they haven't done before one-off tribal cards such as Master of the Pearl Trident, so it might be the only one. Still seems a good candidate for my mono-White aggro deck post-rotation, though.

[Lea Plath]

I think WBr Humans could be a decent deck.

In the human 1 drop slot we have:
Boros Elite
Shadowborn Apostle
Soulmender

Not amazing, but good gap fillers. Shadowborn could be very intresting in an aggro deck that wants to shift into midrange later in the game with bombs like Shadowborn Demon.

We also have Brave the Elements and Shock.

In the 2 mana slot we have
Imposing Sovereign
Ash Zealot
Azorious Arrester
Cartel Aristocrat
Daring Skyjek
Fencing Ace
Firefist Striker
Gorehouse Chain Walker
Precinct Captain
Rakdos Shred Freak
Wojek Halberdiers
Young Pyromancer

Then removal such as Doom Blade etc

Three mana is where it gets a little more intresting.
Xanthrid Necromancer
The new RW legendary
Frontline Medic
Banish Priest
Fiendslayer Paladin
Splatter Thug
Sin Collector

[Ninjaman]

I think WBr Humans could be a decent deck.

In the human 1 drop slot we have:
Boros Elite
Shadowborn Apostle I see Shadowborn Apostle as a bad card in decks build around it. Horrible in decks that aren't
Soulmender Doesn't do anything in an aggro deck

Not amazing, but good gap fillers. Shadowborn could be very intresting in an aggro deck that wants to shift into midrange later in the game with bombs like Shadowborn Demon.

We also have Brave the Elements and Shock.

In the 2 mana slot we have
Imposing Sovereign
Ash Zealot
Azorious Arrester
Cartel Aristocrat
Daring Skyjek
Fencing Ace Not unless they print some good anthem effects, or eqipments.
Firefist Striker
Gorehouse Chain Walker
Precinct Captain
Rakdos Shred Freak
Wojek Halberdiers
Young Pyromancer Not in such a creature heavy deck
The new pegasus

Then removal such as Doom Blade etc

Three mana is where it gets a little more intresting.
Xanthrid Necromancer
The new RW legendary
Frontline Medic
Fiendslayer Paladin
Splatter Thug In constructed, i think not.

Sin Collector These two could be interesting as main/sideboard cards. Board sin collectors against control, priest against aggro.
Banisher Priest


I think it would probably be a better choice to go green for experiment one, or just cut the human theme and go W/R


Responses in bold.

[tgva8889]

Humans might certainly be a thing, but I am not convinced the tribal support will necessarily be there. Though I do imagine that MOST of the heroes of Theros will be Humans.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I doubt humans will have the support they had in Innistrad, but there's still plenty of useful humans that exist right now. The only creature that's said will be getting any kind of real support is going to be the minotaurs from what I've seen/read.

[RaggedAngel]

I doubt humans will have the support they had in Innistrad, but there's still plenty of useful humans that exist right now. The only creature that's said will be getting any kind of real support is going to be the minotaurs from what I've seen/read.

I mean, we have one card that blatantly helps out Humans. So we can't really say that only Minotaurs are going to be supported.

[Androgeus]

I mean, we have one card that blatantly helps out Humans. So we can't really say that only Minotaurs are going to be supported.

One card does not a supported tribe make.

[RaggedAngel]

One card does not a supported tribe make.

True, but you also can't say that they're unsupported when we have a support card right in front of us.

[Mr._Blinky]

True, but you also can't say that they're unsupported when we have a support card right in front of us.

I mean, we've got Shadowborn Apostle too and I wouldn't really call Demons a supported tribe.

[Fleeing Coward]

Considering the theme of the next block, I'd be very suprised if humans are not supported. The heroes have to come from somewhere :smalltongue:
There's also the fact that Wizard doesn't print these type of support cards without humans at least playing a part role for fhe block for draft synergy if nothing else.

[Pendulous]

Huh, I actually predicted this http://i.imgur.com/3KLlV13.jpg

Sort of. But I don't see the benefit of a creature or an artifact also being an enchantment. If anything, it's a drawback.

[Sohala]

The more types on a card, the more toolboxs it can fit into.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Huh, I actually predicted this http://i.imgur.com/3KLlV13.jpg

Sort of. But I don't see the benefit of a creature or an artifact also being an enchantment. If anything, it's a drawback.

It has the advantage of one card making Goyf 3/4. Admittedly, this also means that THE OOZE! can remove it if it's the only card of it's types, but still.

[tgva8889]

It has the advantage of one card making Goyf 3/4. Admittedly, this also means that THE OOZE! can remove it if it's the only card of it's types, but still.

Actually, since Legendary is not a permanent type but a supertype, Goyf would only be a 2/3 if this were the only card in a graveyard.

[Zombimode]

Huh, I actually predicted this http://i.imgur.com/3KLlV13.jpg

Sort of. But I don't see the benefit of a creature or an artifact also being an enchantment. If anything, it's a drawback.

Oh come on! The crumbs are sharp, but the card isn't? Its not that hard to use a camera.
Also, is that... is that a blood stain?

[Androgeus]

Oh come on! The crumbs are sharp, but the card isn't? Its not that hard to use a camera.
Also, is that... is that a blood stain?

It's a photo of a poster, so part of the badly quality could be due to the poster itself.

edit: Picture of the full poster (http://imgur.com/mBEYXxO)

[Zombimode]

Ah, ok, I take it back. I had not realized it was just a cutout from a much larger picture :smallredface:

[Narkis]

I love the names of Theros. Almost everything in the planeswalker's guide and everything that's been spoiled has a meaning in Greek that's relevant. I don't believe I've seen something like that before from foreign companies.

[Shades of Gray]

I wonder how they're going to localize the names to Greece. Are they going to go ahead and call the legendary hydra Polukranos when that is just literally "Many-Heads the hydra"

[Sith_Happens]

I wonder how they're going to localize the names to Greece. Are they going to go ahead and call the legendary hydra Polukranos when that is just literally "Many-Heads the hydra"

That way you know what kind of hydra they're talking about.

[Narkis]

I wonder how they're going to localize the names to Greece. Are they going to go ahead and call the legendary hydra Polukranos when that is just literally "Many-Heads the hydra"

Greece doesn't get its own localized cards, so it won't be an issue for Wizards. The players so far call Polukranos with his name, just like every other Legend. Now it just has a meaning. And it's the same with Anax and eveything else.

[13_CBS]

Hello everyone, I have a rules question:

Given the following scenario...

Opponent:
Controls a Savannah Lion
Has plenty of mana and cards open, and is able to cast them

Me:
Controls enough untapped lands to play an Overloaded Blustersquall (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253582)

Is it possible for me to play said Overloaded Blustersquall such that not only is my opponent's Savannah Lion is tapped before the Declare Attackers step, but also such that my opponent is unable to cast Sorcery-speed spells between the casting of Blustersquall and the beginning his Combat Phase?

[IthilanorStPete]

Hello everyone, I have a rules question:

Given the following scenario...

Opponent:
Controls a Savannah Lion
Has plenty of mana and cards open, and is able to cast them

Me:
Controls enough untapped lands to play an Overloaded Blustersquall (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253582)

Is it possible for me to play said Overloaded Blustersquall such that not only is my opponent's Savannah Lion is tapped before the Declare Attackers step, but also such that my opponent is unable to cast Sorcery-speed spells between the casting of Blustersquall and the beginning his Combat Phase?

Yes; cast it in the Beginning of Combat step. Combat is made up of (up to) 5 steps:
-Beginning of Combat
-Declare Attackers
-Declare Blockers
-Combat Damage
-End of Combat

[13_CBS]

Oooh, I see. Our confuses arose from the fact that my friends and I play both Magic and Yu Gi Oh regularly, and in Yu Gi Oh the ending of phases kind of sort of uses the Yu Gi Oh equivalent of the stack (as far as I can tell), and therefore the defending player can play instant-speed stuff "in between" the ending of the Main Phase and the Combat Phase.

In any case, thanks for the prompt reply, folks!

[tgva8889]

Oooh, I see. Our confuses arose from the fact that my friends and I play both Magic and Yu Gi Oh regularly, and in Yu Gi Oh the ending of phases kind of sort of uses the Yu Gi Oh equivalent of the stack (as far as I can tell), and therefore the defending player can play instant-speed stuff "in between" the ending of the Main Phase and the Combat Phase.

In any case, thanks for the prompt reply, folks!

You can kind of do this in Magic if it was something you wanted to do. For example, if you were to cast Blustersquall after your opponent passed priority during their Main Phase, your opponent would then gain priority again during their Main Phase and could cast more spells. In fact, after your Blustersquall resolves during the Beginning of Combat step, your opponent will gain priority again and have the ability to cast spells or abilities, so long as they are allowed to do those things during the Combat Phase (which generally means they are Instants or have Flash).

In other words, Magic has a system of rules that allows for a lot of complex decisions.

[Seatbelt]

So Niv-Mizzet the Firemind infinite combo. Can you respond to that before it kills you? So he goes off, can you bounce Niv-Mizzet/Destroy an Enchantment/Otherwise remove a component before he draws his deck and kills the entire table? Or does he respond to your response by killing you?

[Narkis]

If he combos off with Mind over Matter he can respond to your response by untapping Niv. If he's using Curiosity though, Niv will be tapped and unable to do anything.

[Androgeus]

You can use Krosan Grip to blow up any enchantment/artifact shenanigans they are abusing.
Edit: Ok this is quite silly and a bit corner case but if they have Curiosity on Niv and have something like Chromatic Sphere in play, they can basically ignore the Split Second.

[Seatbelt]

If he combos off with Mind over Matter he can respond to your response by untapping Niv. If he's using Curiosity though, Niv will be tapped and unable to do anything.

This last time was Mind Over Matter. But ok. Thats kind of what I thought.

[tgva8889]

Unless you can stop them enough times that they don't have enough cards in their hand, you'll have to stop them before both cards are on the battlefield and can activate their abilities if you want to actually stop the full combo. Alternatively, you could resolve a Cerebral Vortex (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96907) on them, which is one of the most hilarious cards to play against people who do stupid things.

[Callos_DeTerran]

So...uh...something surprising happened today. I went to my store to compete in the From the Vault: Twenty tournament. Four rounds then break for top eight, elimination. Even paid for someone else to compete, just to get a better crack at getting some of the stuff out of the From the Vault (since he didn't want much from there). Got to the fourth round and actually faced my double-down...won...got into the Top 8, color me surprised!

...Color me more surprised that I won and got the From the Vault Twenty. Course...I don't want the damn thing for myself, I want to sell it to fund my case of Theros that I want to buy. What's a good price for selling this thing online? I was going to start bidding at 150 with a buy it now of 225...

[Dumbledore lives]

So...uh...something surprising happened today. I went to my store to compete in the From the Vault: Twenty tournament. Four rounds then break for top eight, elimination. Even paid for someone else to compete, just to get a better crack at getting some of the stuff out of the From the Vault (since he didn't want much from there). Got to the fourth round and actually faced my double-down...won...got into the Top 8, color me surprised!

...Color me more surprised that I won and got the From the Vault Twenty. Course...I don't want the damn thing for myself, I want to sell it to fund my case of Theros that I want to buy. What's a good price for selling this thing online? I was going to start bidding at 150 with a buy it now of 225...

Ebay says 165 give or take. Congratulations on winning.

[Nerocite]

More stuff on Theros (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/262) (Scroll to the bottom)

Lotta hype in there. Looks like that legendary blue enchantment is part of a cycle.

[Ninjaman]

A 3/3 with three abilities that uses fate counters Interesting
Multiple cards with the word "nongorgon" Probably removal spells, maybe some black green saying nonland nongorgon permanent.
A high-profile cycle of legendary permanents that are not creatures or lands A cycle like the trident. Wonder if they are all going to be enchantment artifact
A rare card with five words of rules text in which one of the words is "planeswalker" Dreadbore? Possibly a dreadbore that hits enchantments instead of creatures.
An artifact creature that appears to be a big horse made out of woo
A 5/5 giant snake that can be cast for GG Hoping it will be good
A multicolor Minotaur lord Bring out your didgeridoos
A card that could have been in Modern Masters Thoughtseize
A giant that brings fire to humans What?
A creature with a saboteur ability (it has an effect if the creature deals combat damage to an opponent) which is one of the Power Nine Time walk, ancestral, timetwister. Timewalk goes infinite so not that, and recall says target so that might become awkward, so i would go with either draw 3 or timetwister


Responses in bold.

[Fleeing Coward]

It's funny how everyone thinks that it'll be Thoughtseize the moment they mentioned Modern Masters. I'd laugh if it just turns out to be something bad like Lucent Liminid :smalltongue:

[Sith_Happens]

It's funny how everyone thinks that it'll be Thoughtseize the moment they mentioned Modern Masters. I'd laugh if it just turns out to be something bad like Lucent Liminid :smalltongue:

I'm kind of thinking River of Tears, as part of a cycle.

EDIT: Or Nimbus Maze, but that would contradict what they said about the new duals cycle not synergizing with shocks.

[Androgeus]

The could have been Modern Masters reprint is separate from the Future Sight reprint, source: Maro's Blog (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/59371040969/in-tonights-state-of-design-you-mention-a-teaser-of)

[Duos]

Personally, my money is on Daybreak Coronet for the reprint. It IS an enchantment block, after all.

[Mr._Blinky]

I kind of figured the "five words, one of them Planeswalker" thing would be "Gain control of target Planeswalker", which fits and is an ability that they haven't specifically made before. I'm not too sure about that though, mostly because that's a very narrow ability.

[Fable Wright]

I kind of figured the "five words, one of them Planeswalker" thing would be "Gain control of target Planeswalker", which fits and is an ability that they haven't specifically made before. I'm not too sure about that though, mostly because that's a very narrow ability.

{Destroy/Exile} target {Enchantment/Creature/Artifact} or planeswalker has a pretty good chance of being made.

[tgva8889]

All I want is "gain control of target Planeswalker."

[Eldariel]

Sorry, have to vent a bit:
So, playing MODO 8-4 M14 Draft with among others Chandra, Pyromaster; Rise of the Dark Realms & a bunch of garden-variety rares (Elite Arcanist, Domestication, Goblin Diplomat, etc.); in the finals, 1-1, I'm at 3 Island, 2 Mountains, Air Servant & Chandra to enemy's 13 life, Island, Plains, Mountain (I've got Cancel & Nephalia Seakite in hand too so the game is basically over). Then MODO servers crash and I'm not sure if I can even get reimbursement 'cause I just closed the client and tried to rejoin since the round was running short on time when the client errored out. Sometimes, I don't feel it's worth it.

[tgva8889]

Sorry, have to vent a bit:
So, playing MODO 8-4 M14 Draft with among others Chandra, Pyromaster; Rise of the Dark Realms & a bunch of garden-variety rares (Elite Arcanist, Domestication, Goblin Diplomat, etc.); in the finals, 1-1, I'm at 3 Island, 2 Mountains, Air Servant & Chandra to enemy's 13 life, Island, Plains, Mountain (I've got Cancel & Nephalia Seakite in hand too so the game is basically over). Then MODO servers crash and I'm not sure if I can even get reimbursement 'cause I just closed the client and tried to rejoin since the round was running short on time when the client errored out. Sometimes, I don't feel it's worth it.

I feel your pain. I lost a Thundermaw Hellkite to a server crash once. Except my server crash happened during the DRAFT portion, so as a result I didn't actually have a draft deck. It happens. Just get your reimbursement, accept that these things happen, and remember that Magic is fun.

[Eldariel]

Yeah... If only it wasn't about gaining/losing a bunch of what amounts to money I wouldn't have a problem with it :smallfrown: Ah well.

[Seatbelt]

Yeah... If only it wasn't about gaining/losing a bunch of what amounts to money I wouldn't have a problem with it :smallfrown: Ah well.

I would love to play MODO except I can't possibly sanction paying full draft price for virtual cards. If it was 2-3 bucks for an online draft I'd do it all the time.

[tgva8889]

Yeah... If only it wasn't about gaining/losing a bunch of what amounts to money I wouldn't have a problem with it :smallfrown: Ah well.

When you play Magic at a competitive level, sometimes that happens. It's unfortunate but true.

[Sohala]

I would love to play MODO except I can't possibly sanction paying full draft price for virtual cards. If it was 2-3 bucks for an online draft I'd do it all the time.
Can't you get real cards out of MODO though?

[Narkis]

You can exchange whole sets for the paper equivalents, but only the more recent sets, and the shipping and handling charges make it very much not worth it for non-US residents.

[Pendulous]

The non-creature, non-land permanent legendary set better not be more swords.

[tgva8889]

The new Theros cards revealed today are sweet. I love all the new mechanics and I ESPECIALLY like the treatment they gave to one particular card.

[Pendulous]

The new Theros cards revealed today are sweet. I love all the new mechanics and I ESPECIALLY like the treatment they gave to one particular card.

Am I missing something? MTGSalvation doesn't have anything new on their spoiler list.

Never mind, I see em. MTGSalvation is slow today.

Shipbreaker Kraken is a poor man's Lorthos.

So, Devotion is Chroma?

The rest is meh to me. Oh, and that bestow card is really expensive for its effect.

[Fable Wright]

The new Theros cards revealed today are sweet. I love all the new mechanics and I ESPECIALLY like the treatment they gave to one particular card.

Links? I can't find them.

[tgva8889]

Check them out. (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/1307)

[Sith_Happens]

So, Devotion is Chroma?

Yup, and Abhorrent Overlord is already more interesting than any of the Chroma cards. Not to mention that this block presumably isn't going to turn it into a freebie by sticking hybrid mana symbols on everything.


The rest is meh to me. Oh, and that bestow card is really expensive for its effect.

Maybe the Bestow cost is too high, but the normal cost definitely isn't.

[Pendulous]

Yup, and Abhorrent Overlord is already more interesting than any of the Chroma cards. Not to mention that this block presumably isn't going to turn it into a freebie by sticking hybrid mana symbols on everything.



Maybe the Bestow cost is too high, but the normal cost definitely isn't.

Actually, it seems that if you pay the bestow cost, and the enchanted creature dies, the bestow card will then become a creature. So it's not as bad as it looks. Still a lot of mana though, and not the best way to try to "fix" enchantments.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Now that we have more sources of Monstrosity than just Polukranos, I'm really digging this mechanic. The monstrous creatures we've seen so far are already good creatures, and then you can buff them up for more mana to get a good effect. I like the design here.

Oh, and while it might not be the best balanced mechanic, I love the bestow mechanic; things that are divine are in their essence a type of enchantment- and that essence can be bestowed onto mortals. Flavourwise, I love that.

[Eldariel]

When you play Magic at a competitive level, sometimes that happens. It's unfortunate but true.

Well, good news is I got the compensation and kept my cards so overall I came out only ~4 packs behind. I guess that's acceptable, though the "replacement" draft was obviously a round 1 loss due to mana.

Ah well, now I got the most fun deck I've drafted in M14 to date; Bubbling Cauldron/2xFestering Newt+Corpse Hauler/Trading Post/Angelic Accord/Mark of the Vampire/Sanguine Bond (mono-black aside from the Accord). Only missing Diabolic Tutor and Corrupt from the perfect deck :smallbiggrin: (obviously some rare creatures like Bogbrew Witch, Nightmare or Shadowborn Demon would improve it but the heart of the deck is the combo)

[Bucky]

Theros
Celestial Archon fails the Yavimaya Wurm test by way of Silverclaw Griffin. Ember Swallower surprisingly doesn't fail it for cards already in Standard - we'll see what else the set has that costs 2RR.

[Fable Wright]

Theros
So, MTGSalvation threw up the first (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=533172) of the God cards. Assuming this is real, thoughts?

Personally, I think it's an an interesting mechanic. Supports playing Enchantments to add more colored symbols to the board that can't be killed easily, and a moderately to very useful effect otherwise.

Also? These look fantastic for EDH, either just running them in the 100 or as a commander. Do you think the Scry 1 on upkeep is on all of the Gods, or just the blue one?

[Nerocite]

Theros
So, MTGSalvation threw up the first (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=533172) of the God cards. Assuming this is real, thoughts?

Personally, I think it's an an interesting mechanic. Supports playing Enchantments to add more colored symbols to the board that can't be killed easily, and a moderately to very useful effect otherwise.

Also? These look fantastic for EDH, either just running them in the 100 or as a commander. Do you think the Scry 1 on upkeep is on all of the Gods, or just the blue one?

That's a lot of stuff for just 3 mana. Repeatable scry and unblockable is sweet, and being able to become a creature is icing. Doubtful the other gods will have scry, seems really blue.

[tgva8889]

Devotion is my favorite mechanic in Theros and it will be awesome. I predict people will be doing all sorts of weird things in Theros/RtR Standard and that deck building skills will really be tested.

[Pendulous]

Theros
So, MTGSalvation threw up the first (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=533172) of the God cards. Assuming this is real, thoughts?

Personally, I think it's an an interesting mechanic. Supports playing Enchantments to add more colored symbols to the board that can't be killed easily, and a moderately to very useful effect otherwise.

Also? These look fantastic for EDH, either just running them in the 100 or as a commander. Do you think the Scry 1 on upkeep is on all of the Gods, or just the blue one?

Even with the drawback, it's insanely overpowered. I assume the activated ability and triggered (? the scry) ability are activated whether or not he's a creature. If so, having Devotion 5 is a small price to play for a 5/5 indestructible with a scry 1 per turn for only 3 mana.

[Fable Wright]

Even with the drawback, it's insanely overpowered. I assume the activated ability and triggered (? the scry) ability are activated whether or not he's a creature. If so, having Devotion 5 is a small price to play for a 5/5 indestructible with a scry 1 per turn for only 3 mana.

Before you judge, consider how you're getting Devotion 5. One from itself, think of how you're getting Devotion 5. Here (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&set=|[%22Return%20to%20Ravnica%22]|[%22Gatecrash%22]|[%22Dragon's%20Maze%22]|[%22Magic%202014%20Core%20Set%22]&mana=+~[UU]&type=+![%22Sorcery%22]+![%22Instant%22]) are all the cards from RTR/M14 that have UU in their cost. How many of those would you seriously consider putting in a deck? And of those, how fast do you think you can put them out? Sure, Tinebender -> Thassa -> Jace AoT is the nuts. How often does it come up, and how easy is it to dismantle? (Hint: It's mana cost is R. It's also an Instant.) And let's not forget Skylasher, which just blocks it all day. And if you don't want to run bad cards just to activate the God? Look at a current Standard deck running Blue. See exactly how often they will get to Devotion 4. When it's not a creature, it's weak in control decks, and only slightly better in aggro decks. (Because, really, you're running a tight curve and you're not going to use that Unblockability except to push the last points of damage through.) Powerful? If you work for it, yes. Overpowered? Hell no.

[Zombimode]

Most important info for me: Scry is in Theros.

Could this mean Serum Visions?

[Landis963]

Devotion is my favorite mechanic in Theros and it will be awesome. I predict people will be doing all sorts of weird things in Theros/RtR Standard and that deck building skills will really be tested.

Same here. It's Chroma, but better.

[tgva8889]

Something to think about: there are definitely formats where I would pay 3 mana for scry 1 on my upkeep and the ability to cast Infiltrate whenever I wanted. I don't know if the format we're going into will be one of them, but I can certainly see this being very good, especially since it's Indestructible and especially since randomly having permanents with colored mana symbols might be relevant in the future.

The bonus of being a 5/5 sometimes will be important as a surprise factor; remember that this card basically attaches a 5/5 indestructible creature with Haste to whatever permanent you play that gives you enough devotion. It reminds me of Demonic Rising; if you go through the effort, you get a pretty awesome bonus out of it. Demonic Rising is certainly a card that sees play; I can only assume that since devotion is in Theros, there will be some pretty cool ways to make use out of it.

Edit: Interesting information I pulled from the Planeswalker's Guide to Theros (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/261c):


When the sun first shone on Heliod, god of the sun, the first shadow was cast. When Heliod saw it, he feared and banished it, sending it beyond the so-called Rivers That Ring the World, the five rivers that form a boundary between Theros and its Underworld.

5 rivers, eh? Perhaps one of them is the River of Tears (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126210)?

[Grytorm]

Hello again, I have started playing on a somewhat regular schedule and I have a solid deck but I want some advice on the sideboard.

My Deck is

21x Mountain
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Stromkirk Noble
4x Ashe Zealot
4x Burning Tree Emissary
4x Lightning Mauler
4x Chandra's Pheonix
3x Boros Reckoner
3x Hellrider
4x Pillar of Flame
1x Shock
4x Searing Spear

My Sideboard is

4x Young Pyromancer
4x Volcanic Strength
3x Shock
3x Mark of Mutiny
1x Burning Earth

My Thoughts

First the mainboard, right now I like it, it works pretty well with solid curves and decent burn and I think it will be workable after rotation. My questions are should I add or drop another land and should I replace Shock with anything. I don't want to pay for another Reckoner so nothing else springs to mind as very good.

For my sideboard I know I need burning earth and if I can I will get two more switching out a Pyromancer and a Shock first.
The Volcanic Strength comes in against Aggro style red decks switching in for the Pheonixes, gives me an equivalent unblockable threat and makes something hard to burn.
The Burning Earths are good against anyone running a lot of nonbasics, duh. Typically I would want to switch them out for whatever is weak in certain matchups, against control take out pillars, overall I'm not certain what my weak cards are against midrange and aggro decks. So some tips there would be helpful.
Mark of Mutiny helps against midrange and control decks without Aetherling if I can secure there win condition. Again I don't know what is weak against midrange, I've mostly fought control and aggro so far.

Shock and Young Pyromancer don't seem very good to me. A few times I brought them in, Pyromancer against a control deck when I didn't need Pillars and Shokcs because they are marginally better than Pillar when the exile is relevant. But I kind of want these out. If I want an extra creature against control I would go probably Rakdos Shred Freaks or Gorehouse Chainwalker to speed up my clock if Pillar seems useless against control, but I would probably go only two creatures to replace all the one drop burn. The Shocks don't seem worthwhile, they don't offer that much of an advantage when I bring them in but I don't know what I really should replace them.

Other than these cards I mentioned I don't know what I can add to the sideboard to help against types of decks. so any other cards that I should pick up and tips for when I should bring them in?

[Zombimode]

You know, it just occurred to me that the art style of Theros is my favorite since... well since ever, actually :smallsmile:

[Mystic Muse]

Finally decided on a not very good, but fun, BUG list for Modern.

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Visions of Beyond
4x Hedron Crab
4x Inquisition/Thoughtseize
2x Life from the loam
2x Other spell (not decided yet)
Land
1-2x Nephalia Drownyard
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant catacombs
2-4x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Watery Grave
2x Swamp
2x Island
2x Forest

Slightly janky. Basically, use Hedron crab and drownyard to mill your opponent and fuel Goyf, Deathrite, and visions of Beyond, and unless your opponent is running things like Eldrazi, it can theoretically be used to mill them to death.

This is obviously strictly an FNM deck, but I think it could be fun.

[Fable Wright]

Finally decided on a not very good, but fun, BUG list for Modern.

Slightly janky. Basically, use Hedron crab and drownyard to mill your opponent and fuel Goyf, Deathrite, and visions of Beyond, and unless your opponent is running things like Eldrazi, it can theoretically be used to mill them to death.

This is obviously strictly an FNM deck, but I think it could be fun.

You're running Bob, 10-12 shocks, and Thoughtseize with no lifegain or ways to kill Bob. I just want you to think about that for a second, then reserve a set of Finks for when you realize just how much that hurts.

[RaggedAngel]

You're running Bob, 10-12 shocks, and Thoughtseize with no lifegain or ways to kill Bob. I just want you to think about that for a second, then reserve a set of Finks for when you realize just how much that hurts.

I remember when I first put my deck together and I thought it was fine to Fetchland -> Shockland -> Thoughtseize on my first turn. It turns out, a 5 life drop on turn one is a pretty big one.

[Sith_Happens]

I remember when I first put my deck together and I thought it was fine to Fetchland -> Shockland -> Thoughtseize on my first turn. It turns out, a 5 life drop on turn one is a pretty big one.

But very possibly worth it for your Goyf to already be a 3/4 on turn two.

[Mystic Muse]

You're running Bob, 10-12 shocks, and Thoughtseize with no lifegain or ways to kill Bob. I just want you to think about that for a second, then reserve a set of Finks for when you realize just how much that hurts.

I thought I had inquisition instead of Thoughtseize. My mistake.

Yeah, I'll make room for Finks. Or grazing gladehart. See which one functions more consistently at my FNM. Probably finks, but trying out random stuff is what FNM is for.

[tgva8889]

You're running Bob, 10-12 shocks, and Thoughtseize with no lifegain or ways to kill Bob. I just want you to think about that for a second, then reserve a set of Finks for when you realize just how much that hurts.

To be fair, most people will kill your Bob for you, immediately, because leaving Dark Confidant in play for more than one turn is usually asking to get massively card-advantaged out of the game. Though I certainly wouldn't play him with Thoughtseize.