d20 combat systems?

[Grinner]

I'm looking to create a new combat minigame for a d20 system. What I have right now is greatly condensed from the mess in the D&D 3.5 SRD, but I feel there are improvements that could be made. Incorporation of Pathfinder's streamlined maneuvers seems like an obvious move, and Unearthed Arcana's hacks always have something to offer. The dice pool mechanic from the Codex Martialis also has potential, depending on the direction I end up taking.

I haven't really settled on how lethal combat should be, but I'd like to hear about any modified combat systems you can think of. Third party supplements, homebrew, or your own musings. Anything.

[ericp65]

You could take the GURPS approach to dealing damage with weapons, which is a reverse of the traditional D&D approach. Here, the amount of damage you do is based on your physical ability, with bonus damage according to type (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning, etc.).

[Grinner]

I can see something like that. So...instead of having damage dice, the nature of the weapon would modify the nature of the character's attack?

[ericp65]

I can see something like that. So...instead of having damage dice, the nature of the weapon would modify the nature of the character's attack?

You could base "base damage" off a character's or creature's STR, then decide how much of a bonus to give for the type of damage the weapon does (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning, etc.), including natural weapon attacks. Possibly then decide that different types of armor are more or less effective in protecting against different kinds of damage, but it depends on how much detail you want.

[erikun]

Are you trying to modify/"fix" the D&D3e system, or are you creating a new system that just uses the d20 concepts as a base?

If you are trying to modify D&D3e, then the first thing I'd recommend is making the combat actions more practical and accessable. Make it so that characters want to and are able to (without severe penalities) do something more interesting than simply make a standard melee attack. You don't necessarily need to make, say, disarming as good as melee in all situations. However, as long as a player could make a disarm when desired, and as long as they don't need to invest resources to make it practical, it should work.

If you are creating your own system, then you'd probably want to work out some sort of "alternate attack" system that can go alongside rolling for straight damage. Fate Core has a system working around Aspects, which means that a character can choose not to deal damage but instead intentionally hinder an opponent. An ally (typically the one dealing good damage) can make use of the Aspect to boost their attack to-hit and damage.

[Grinner]

You could base "base damage" off a character's or creature's STR, then decide how much of a bonus to give for the type of damage the weapon does (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning, etc.), including natural weapon attacks. Possibly then decide that different types of armor are more or less effective in protecting against different kinds of damage, but it depends on how much detail you want.

Armor as Damage Reduction...Okay, I like where this is going.

One thing that's irked me about D&D is the concept of attack rolls. Really. The guy's standing right in front of you. How hard can it be to land a blow? (Ranged attacks are another thing altogether.) I'd also like to streamline the process a bit. So what if melee attacks always "hit"? Just cut out the melee attack roll altogether? Instead, the defender would make a decision: defend or dodge?

Defense would consist of simply absorbing the blow, relying on armor and other defenses to cushion the blow. Any damage in excess of the armor's damage reduction is deducted from the character's hit points, represent blunt shock*. Or maybe I could go the Storyteller route and reduce it to non-lethal damage, later increasing to lethal damage?

Dodging is just like it sounds - avoiding the blow altogether. If the roll fails, then armor would still be effective (though shields would not). However, increasingly heavy armor would inflict a proportional penalty to the dodge roll. Additionally, to prevent dodging from becoming the default choice**, there should be some kind of cost associated with it. Perhaps it penalizes a future roll or consumes a future action?

I'm also thinking that parrying might be a possible option, or it could just be folded into one of the other two.

*The Wounds/Vitality mechanic might fit into this well.
**A line of defense, even a terrible one, is still a line of defense.


Are you trying to modify/"fix" the D&D3e system, or are you creating a new system that just uses the d20 concepts as a base?

I'm actually using True20. But yes, I am merely attempting to modify the d20 system into something a little more palatable.


If you are trying to modify D&D3e, then the first thing I'd recommend is making the combat actions more practical and accessable. Make it so that characters want to and are able to (without severe penalities) do something more interesting than simply make a standard melee attack. You don't necessarily need to make, say, disarming as good as melee in all situations. However, as long as a player could make a disarm when desired, and as long as they don't need to invest resources to make it practical, it should work.

On the other hand, the only time someone would actually want to do a disarm is when it is prudent to do so.

Then again, perhaps that's because they're so difficult to pull off, and let's be honest, Improved Disarm isn't a terribly interesting feat to begin with.

What about "maneuver points"? Like action points, they could be spent to improve combat maneuvers, and they would refill after completing certain combat milestones. For example, defeating an enemy would net you a point or two.

But then again, how powerful are maneuvers? Is it even worth limiting them?


If you are creating your own system, then you'd probably want to work out some sort of "alternate attack" system that can go alongside rolling for straight damage. Fate Core has a system working around Aspects, which means that a character can choose not to deal damage but instead intentionally hinder an opponent. An ally (typically the one dealing good damage) can make use of the Aspect to boost their attack to-hit and damage.

Narrative status effects...Could that fit into a distinctly simulational game? Do the two flavors taste great together?

[IronFist]

One thing that's irked me about D&D is the concept of attack rolls. Really. The guy's standing right in front of you. How hard can it be to land a blow?
Well, the guy is not standing in front of you. He is dodging, parrying, blocking and doing his best to avoid being hit. Also, you have to aim for chinks in the armor, unprotected flesh and the like. No one just "stands there" in a fight. That's the whole point of Armor Class or any other passive defense in any combat system.

[Grinner]

Well, the guy is not standing in front of you. He is dodging, parrying, blocking and doing his best to avoid being hit. Also, you have to aim for chinks in the armor, unprotected flesh and the like. No one just "stands there" in a fight. That's the whole point of Armor Class or any other passive defense in any combat system.

I've learned that there's more to writing rules than just writing rules. Each rule has subtleties and quiet implications. In my mind's eye, the "roll vs. AC" rule doesn't feel like the other guy is dodging, parrying, blocking, and doing his best to avoid being hit. It feels like he's just standing still.

[IronFist]

I've learned that there's more to writing rules than just writing rules. Each rule has subtleties and quiet implications. In my mind's eye, the "roll vs. AC" rule doesn't feel like the other guy is dodging, parrying, blocking, and doing his best to avoid being hit. It feels like he's just standing still.

Well, use an active defense system, then. It will slow down play, obviously.
The more you talk about it, the more it looks like what you want is GURPS.

[Grinner]

Well, use an active defense system, then. It will slow down play, obviously.

Maybe, but I'm not sure that's the case at all.

Let's see. It's currently:

Roll vs. AC (1d20 + BAB + Strength bonus + modifiers vs. AC): whether the attack hits or not
Damage roll (xdx + Strength bonus + modifiers - DR): how badly the attack injures the other party


This active defense system would be:

Damage value (Strength bonus + modifiers - DR): how much injury the attack inflicts
Dodge roll (1d20 + modifiers vs. ??): whether the attack hits at all (optional)


It seems a bit simpler to me, but it does lack a DC value for the Dodge roll.

[ericp65]

You could also handle every action a character or creature attempts as an opposed roll or a roll vs. a DC, depending on the situation.

[IronFist]

This active defense system would be:

Damage value (Strength bonus + modifiers - DR): how much injury the attack inflicts
Dodge roll (1d20 + modifiers vs. ??): whether the attack hits at all (optional)


It seems a bit simpler to me, but it does lack a DC value for the Dodge roll.
That's like the system they use in Street Fighter StG (except it was a single roll then, it used a static defense with auto-hit). In SF StG, they had other factors around, specially Speed, that made other statistics relevant. From what I can see, your system would lack, for example, skilled/fast fighters that don't hit terribly hard. Also, I wouldn't call it 'dodge'. It's too restrictive. Just call it Defense.

[Grinner]

You could also handle every action a character or creature attempts as an opposed roll or a roll vs. a DC, depending on the situation.

That's pretty much already the case, right?


From what I can see, your system would lack, for example, skilled/fast fighters that don't hit terribly hard.

I've been thinking about that, actually, and I've concluded that the dodge roll could be used to support crit-fishers. Basically, instead of becoming a potential critical hit on a natural 20, a blow would threaten on a natural 1.

That still doesn't address the problem of critical hits on characters that choose to defend, however.....Unless that's the price of dodging, the risk of rolling a 1....But what about undead?


Also, I wouldn't call it 'dodge'. It's too restrictive.

How so?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Dodge represents only your ability to move out of the way of an attack. Defense covers that and other options (like taking the hit like a boss).

[IronFist]

Also, I suggest the "dodge" test should not be opposed to a number. It should reap progressive rewards. As in, divide your roll per 5 and reduce that amount of damage or something. Otherwise, you end up in a situation of reversed Armor Class, which is something you do not want.

The problem with your solution, I think, is that instead of the feeling of "Just standing there" when defending you would get the feeling of "just standing there" when attacking.

[Grinner]

Defense covers that and other options (like taking the hit like a boss).

Point taken. I had intended that Defense just be the latter, but perhaps something like "Withstand" or "Absorb" would be more apt.


Also, I suggest the "dodge" test should not be opposed to a number. It should reap progressive rewards. As in, divide your roll per 5 and reduce that amount of damage or something. Otherwise, you end up in a situation of reversed Armor Class, which is something you do not want.

I had been thinking that a player would choose to be either heavily armored, thus immune to a portion of incoming damage, or be very nimble, thus capable of avoiding it altogether.

You do raise another good point, but division...That's a big no-no. In tabletop RPGs, it's generally wise to use simpler operations, and division is considerably more complex to the human mind than addition.

Also, that renders Dodging inferior to Withstanding, unless there's some sort of multiplier involved.


The problem with your solution, I think, is that instead of the feeling of "Just standing there" when defending you would get the feeling of "just standing there" when attacking.

While that is really the intent of the concept, I do see your point. I do see how it could wear on a player...

[Galloglaich]

If you'd like a copy of Codex Martialis to use as a starting point or baseline send me a PM and I'll give you a comp copy. It does a lot of the stuff you are discussing here already, plus historical martial arts techniques, and there is a thorough database of different historical weapons and armor statted out.

It's also mostly OGL so you can reuse, change, or adapt any of the elements to your own game as you see fit.

G

[ericp65]

Just for the heck of it, I'll toss this on the pile...

There was a game (by Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson Games, but back when he was with Metagaming) called Melee, which was an arena combat game. You had two ability scores: Strength and Dexterity. Your Strength and your hit points were the same thing. The game used 3d6, as opposed to d20, so to roll an attack, you'd roll 3d6, and try to get your Dex or lower. A natural 3 was a critical hit (roll damage, then double the result), and a natural 18 was a critical miss (dropped/broken weapon, etc.). Weapon damage was subtracted from your Str; at Str 0, your character was dead.

Weapons required different minimum Str to wield (a detail I like, and that is missing from d20 systems I've seen), and had differing amounts of dice +/- modifiers for damage potential. Weapons in this game did higher amounts of damage than their D&D equivalents. A dagger would do 1d6-1, a broad sword (equivalent of the longsword) did 2d6, a greatsword (equivalent of the two-handed sword) did 3d6, etc. Ability scores had no cap. For every battle your character won, you gained 1 experience point. Enough accumulated experience points were traded in for ability score increases, and then subtracted from your experience total.

This is all from memory, so it might be good to look up the details :smallwink: There was also a game that introduced magic rules, called Wizard, then a mini-adventure module called Death Test. Eventually, a role-playing system called The Fantasy Trip (and In The Labyrinth) was developed. These were the predecessors to Steve Jackson's GURPS.

[Grinner]

If you'd like a copy of Codex Martialis to use as a starting point or baseline send me a PM and I'll give you a comp copy. It does a lot of the stuff you are discussing here already, plus historical martial arts techniques, and there is a thorough database of different historical weapons and armor statted out.

It's also mostly OGL so you can reuse, change, or adapt any of the elements to your own game as you see fit.

G

Thanks for the offer :smallsmile:, but I think I should decline.

Guessing from your signature, you probably know a lot about it. Could you remind me how it works? I remember something about having a dice pool. You could roll multiple dice to initiate multiple attacks or initiate only a single attack, but with the best result. I remember that the dice pool could also be used defensively.

Did the dice pool scale with the PC's level? Were dice rolled defensively only useful against a single attack each? And how well did it scale? I remember thinking it would be particularly suitable for a dueling system, but collating the results would be too intensive for more than two combatants.


Just for the heck of it, I'll toss this on the pile...

There was a game (by Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson Games, but back when he was with Metagaming) called Melee, which was an arena combat game. You had two ability scores: Strength and Dexterity. Your Strength and your hit points were the same thing. The game used 3d6, as opposed to d20, so to roll an attack, you'd roll 3d6, and try to get your Dex or lower. A natural 3 was a critical hit (roll damage, then double the result), and a natural 18 was a critical miss (dropped/broken weapon, etc.). Weapon damage was subtracted from your Str; at Str 0, your character was dead.

Hey, there's a good idea. A bell curve with crit ranges. A feat that increases the crit range might actually be useful there. Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

[Hytheter]

Weapons in this game did higher amounts of damage than their D&D equivalents. A dagger would do 1d6-1

FYI that is actually the same damage as a DnD dagger. Or at least, they average out the same.

:P

edit: unless of course the 1d6-1 has a minimum of 1.

[Galloglaich]

Thanks for the offer :smallsmile:, but I think I should decline.

Whatever for?



Guessing from your signature, you probably know a lot about it. Could you remind me how it works? I remember something about having a dice pool. You could roll multiple dice to initiate multiple attacks or initiate only a single attack, but with the best result. I remember that the dice pool could also be used defensively.

Sure, I can get into it a little. It's a dice pool, but not the typical type. That is to say, you can use it as a regular dice pool but it also works as a 'roll many keep one' system. You can use the dice in your pool for attack, defense, or movement. You get 1 dice per level in your pool, and it maxes out at 4 dice.

Dyniamic Criticals
The 'roll many keep one' system works with a dynamic critical hit system. So that if you roll 2 dice in an attack, (instead of 2 separate attacks) and you get a critical hit (natural 20), you do x2 damage. If you got a critical hit while rolling 3 dice, you do x3 damage and etc. Obviously the more dice you roll the more likely it is to get a critical and the less likely to get a fumble.

This also depends on the weapon, each weapon has one or more types of attack that work with a critical hit - for example with a spear it would be a stab, with an axe it would be a chop and so on.

Defense and counterattacks
The pool is used for defense the same way, and if you roll a natural 20 on defense you get an automatic immediate counterattack - interrupting your opponents turn. If you get a tie roll with your attackers die it's a 'bind' from which you can do certain maneuvers (see martial feats, below). Weapons are also rated for defense, anywhere from 0 for a knife to +6 for a staff.

Shields
Shields give you a defensive bonus like a weapon does, but they also give you a 'free' dice, an extra die for your pool. This makes shields really useful, especially in a big group fight. But most types of shields can also be hacked to pieces.

Movement
Your pool can be used for tactical movement (i.e. moving from one opponent to the next, or moving from one place of cover to another while under fire) and it can also be used to change range bands, from long middle to close. Each weapon has an ideal range- a spear is better at long range, a sword at middle, a dagger at close and so on.

Incidentally daggers do between 1-6 and 1-8 base level damage, and can have the same potential for dynamic criticals (with a stab, usually) as any other weapon.

Bows etc.
Pool is also used to reload missile weapons, so for example a bow might take 2 pool to reload, a crossbow 4, javelins only 1 and etc.

Armor
Armor works as damage reduction, with most armor working better against one type of attack than another (for example, just as in real life, iron or steel plate armor is just about impossible to chop through). Some weapons are made for armor piercing, like a military pick, and have a better chance piercing armor. But armor can also be gotten around, usually, so their is a bypass number. For example, a padded coat may have good coverage, say 8 (meaning -8 to hit if you are trying to get around it) but relatively low damage reduction of 4, whereas a breast plate has poor coverage, say 4, but very good damage reduction of 10, meaning you have to go around it.

Very heavy armor can reduce your pool



Did the dice pool scale with the PC's level? Were dice rolled defensively only useful against a single attack each? And how well did it scale? I remember thinking it would be particularly suitable for a dueling system, but collating the results would be too intensive for more than two combatants.

As I said before, it goes up with your BaB until you reach 4th level, at which point the pool maxes out. This is to keep it manageable and fast. From that point onward, the way you are differentiated from lower level characters is by special Martial Feats. These can be general or circumstantial, but they generally give you a bonus in the form of another 'free' dice for your pool. So for example, if you have the Japanese MF nukitsuke, in your first attack from a sheathed sword you gain a 'free dice'. If you have the German feat 'master-cut' you can make an attack and the same roll counts as your next defense against that particular opponent. If you have 'mutierin' and you get a bind, you can get an immediate 'free dice' for a follow up attack using a different type of damage (i.e. from a thrust to a cut or vice versa) If you have the MF 'situational awareness' you gain a 'free dice' whenever facing multiple opponents, and so on.

In my experience it does scale well to group fights; it's really pretty simple, you hold all your options in your hand (i.e. your dice pool). Group fights are dangerous though because if you run out of pool (because for example you spent it all attacking someone) and get ganged up on, you have to rely on your static defense (which works like armor class) and your armor if any, and you can get overwhelmed pretty easily. Codex is a high-lethality system. We also recommend a hit point ceiling of 3x Constitution score. So you have to think tactically and maximize your options to survive combat. We actually encourage min-maxing, it dovetails well with the realism of the system.

I don't think it really does scale well to very high level, since we've only ever played it up to around level 10. A lot of people use it with E6.

Hope that helps,

G

[ericp65]

FYI that is actually the same damage as a DnD dagger. Or at least, they average out the same.

:P

edit: unless of course the 1d6-1 has a minimum of 1.

The minimum is 0.

[Grinner]

Whatever for?

It's complicated.


Defense and counterattacks
The pool is used for defense the same way, and if you roll a natural 20 on defense you get an automatic immediate counterattack - interrupting your opponents turn. If you get a tie roll with your attackers die it's a 'bind' from which you can do certain maneuvers (see martial feats, below). Weapons are also rated for defense, anywhere from 0 for a knife to +6 for a staff.

So defense rolls are immediate actions in response to attacks?


Movement
Your pool can be used for tactical movement (i.e. moving from one opponent to the next, or moving from one place of cover to another while under fire) and it can also be used to change range bands, from long middle to close. Each weapon has an ideal range- a spear is better at long range, a sword at middle, a dagger at close and so on.

This ties in really well to another idea. Thanks!


... you have to rely on your static defense (which works like armor class)...

So is that just used as a default AC? How is that meaningfully different from making a defense roll? Isn't a defense roll riskier?


Hope that helps,

G

It does. You have no idea how much.

[Galloglaich]

So defense rolls are immediate actions in response to attacks?

Yes



So is that just used as a default AC? How is that meaningfully different from making a defense roll? Isn't a defense roll riskier?

The default roll amounts to just less than an average 1 die defense roll (you get your BaB +8, where average would be +10). "Active Defense" as the die roll is called, is potentially riskier, whether it actually is depends on your character's equipment, feats, and 'martial feats'. For example, if you have a shield you get an 'extra die' for every defense roll. This means a very low (over 200 -1 I think) chance of rolling a natural 1, an enhanced chance of getting a natural 20 (automatic counter-attack) or a bind, and an average roll closer to a Bab+14.

If you have various "martial feats" these can give you all kinds of free dice for defense under different circumstances.

You can build your character to where you are really relying more on active defense or on passive (for example in strong armor you might not care about getting hit with a sword or an axe for example). It also depends on what the attacker is doing. If it's a guy trying to hit you with a stick in a 1 die attack, maybe you risk getting hit and save your dice for your own attack(s); if he's trying to split you in two with a bardiche in a 4 die attack roll, maybe you want to put a few dice into your defense.



It does. You have no idea how much.

Good, be sure and tell everybody you got good ideas from the Codex then ;)

G

[JusticeZero]

Armor as Damage Reduction...Okay, I like where this is going.I don't; subtractive DR has a lot of issues, which lead to people refusing to use anything but a greatsword for anything and building everything lie a melee mailman.
One thing that's irked me about D&D is the concept of attack rolls. Really. The guy's standing right in front of you. How hard can it be to land a blow?Joe the Valiant spun around and brought his sword down on the Dark Knight. Metal creaked and ground, and metal sparked as the blade crashed into the Dark Knight's plate armor with a crash of metal on metal!
Joe's player: "Only an 8. I missed."

[Galloglaich]

I don't; subtractive DR has a lot of issues, which lead to people refusing to use anything but a greatsword for anything and building everything like a melee mailman.

Not sure what a melee mailman is precisely, but my theory when I designed the Codex something like 8 or 10 years ago now was that all these weapons, armor, and techniques to use them existed in real life - and in real life they had some kind of "balance" - otherwise everyone would have used a greatsword or a spiked chain or whatever the one uber-weapon actually is.

But in real life there is no uber-weapon. Greatswords are terrific in the open against lightly protected enemies, but a cut from a greatsword won't do a damn thing against a well armored man. If you want to pierce armor you have to use a purpose-made armor-piercing weapon (like a military pick or an ahelespeiss, or the back-beak of a halberd) but this in turn does not cause as much damage, or you can grapple the person down to the ground and find holes with your dagger, or use special 'war-wrestling' (jujitsu and European equivalents) techniques with your other weapon of choice, including half-sword thrusts, disarms, tripping attacks and so forth.

So in the Codex, as I think I already mentioned, plate armor for example does very well against cuts - in game terms it counts as X3 DR for cuts. So you have to have a mighty cut indeed to get through it.

The reality is that every weapon has advantages and disadvantages. Some are less optimal in general (farm tools and so on) but most others give you some kind of edge for some type of fighting, while also having certain drawbacks. A given weapon may be designed for civilian duels, dealing with armor, dealing with shields, fighting in the open in big groups, fighting in close-quarters one on one, and so on. They may have reach (spears), speed (daggers), defensive value (a main gauche, or a staff) or versatility (a sword).

I always found it ridiculous that some game and computer game systems treat a dagger as a 'nuisance weapon'. Something only suitable for the Wizard to carry, or anyone else not allowed by the rules to wield the mighty greatsword / spiked chain / urgosh / Bat'leth / light saber what-have you. In real life a strongly made knife with a 10 or 12 or 16 inch blade and a sharp point is an extremely dangerous weapon, and generally a much more useful weapon than a greatsword if you are at very close quarters.



Joe the Valiant spun around and brought his sword down on the Dark Knight. Metal creaked and ground, and metal sparked as the blade crashed into the Dark Knight's plate armor with a crash of metal on metal!
Joe's player: "Only an 8. I missed."

There are a few holes in that standard explanation as well which other people down the ages have pointed out many times, so I will take the wimps route and decline to do so myself...

G