Pathfinder: Opinions on this Magus Build

[Thrair]

*EDIT* There's an updated build near the bottom of the thread.


Heya, I'm currently applying to join a gaming group someone's setting up for Pathfinder. The characters start at level 10 with a 25-point buy. DM is allowing everything from official Paizo, but doesn't want TOO much powergaming/minmaxing.

Since I really enjoy tinkering with potential builds, and have a habit of never considering them quite finished, I'm worried I might have made this projected build a little too much and as hoping you guys could give me your opinions on the matter.

The feats are shown in the order which they'll be taken as I level, so just tell me if the at any given level range, the character crosses the line into munchkin. Not taking gear into account.

Human
Magus (Kensai Archetype)
STR: 8
Dex: 16 (Boosted every 4 levels, until 16th, capping out at 20)
Con: 14
Int: 18
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

Racial Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse
Kensai Bonus: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
L1: Improved Unarmed Strike
L3: Dervish Dance
L5: Dodge
Magus 5: Crane Style
L7: Crane Wing
L9: Deflect Arrows
L11: Toughness
Magus 11: Crane Riposte
L13: Arcane Strike
L15: Combat Reflexes
L17: Stand Still
Magus 17: Pin Down
L19: Agile Maneuvers

Magus Arcana
L3: Pool Strike
L6: Disruptive
L12: Maximized Magic
L15: Quickened Magic
L18: Spell Blending (Anti-Magic Field)


Is this build too much? Playstyle is mostly melee with defensive fighting, with spellcasting being mostly support/utility spells and opportunistic attack spells.

At level 10, the character's already naturally hard to hit in melee, boasting a high AC to all but flatfooted, as well as being able to deflect one melee attack and ranged attack per round, avoiding hits that do get through the AC bonuses.

Starting at level 11, starts getting one free AoO per round if someone is attacking them with melee.

The next big boost to power is 17, with Stand Still and Pin Down pairing to prevent anyone threatened from taking any movement actions unless they can avoid getting hit by the resulting AoO, although standstill is less reliable until Agile Maneuvers is picked up. This makes him exceedingly good at pinning down a caster, especially since he has Disruptive as a bonus fight from Magus Arcana. With spell-blending allowing for Anti-Magic Field, the character becomes a duelist against physical opponents, and a hard-counter to casters unless they can stay at a distance the entire fight.


Overall, the build looks like a lot of fun, but I am worried about it's overall power. On the one hand, it's got some big weaknesses: It's flatfooted AC is atrocious (although with high initiative, it'll be hard to make them flatfooted in the first place, especially once level 19 is reached and they are no longer capable of being surprised), and the damage output is very low, as it's a highly defensive build. It also is limited in ranged options, making an opponent that can keep his distance quite nasty.

And ofc, he's still vulnerable to spells.

The lack of damage is actually a very good thing, as that does give me a little leeway in having a powerful build without risking outshining other players in the party just because they're not as optimized/minmaxed/munchkin'd. Because, let's face it, many players have the most fun if they're dealing most of the damage, and that's something this build is not in any danger of competing with them for. The party tanks and healers aren't as likely to step on people's toes in that regard.

What do you guys think? I *think* the character is overly specialized in defense to not be too much of an issue, especially since I'm not even sure if we'll even reach level 20. But I'm still wary because this will be my first gaming group with people I've not met before (my usual gaming group of RL buddies is on Hiatus atm... lots of conflicting schedule issues), and I don't want to be "that one guy" who quickly earns the label of the group's resident munchkin.

[Elricaltovilla]

Lose Improved Unarmed Strike and take Intensify Spell instead. A Magus should never be unarmed, and adding +5d6 to your Shocking Grasp is going to help you way more.

Magus doesn't really lend itself to defensive style fighting. The best defense is a spellstriking an intensified, empowered shocking grasp with a Keen Scimitar for 1d6+3(slashing)+15d6(electric) damage with a 25% chance to crit.

The Style feats aren't going to help you much if you want to optimize the character. If you're worried about your defenses, take Magus Arcanas like Spell Shield, which adds your INT as a shield bonus to your AC (you should never wear a shield anyway).

What it looks like you're trying to do (to me) is mix monk style play with magus style play, and you don't want to do that, you'll just end up with a bad monk and a worse magus.

I would suggest moving Arcane Strike up in the feat order (replace dodge), look into feats that will make you hit harder/more often, that's where the power of a magus comes from.

DO NOT USE ANTIMAGIC FIELD. I cannot stress this enough. You are a caster, and you're going to completely hamstring yourself if you go running around inside your own bubble of nope. It's not going to do a thing to stop a caster. If you want to shut down a caster, get feats like Step Up, so if they try to withdraw from you, you can follow them.

The best way, in my opinion to play a character you're worried about being OP is t make them as good as you can, then just not use their full potential until you can gauge the skill level/focus of the other players. That way you don't walk into a group of High OP players and end up looking like a dumbass because you thought you were gonna be too good to play with them. Always have an ace up your sleeve in case the DM throws a really challenging encounter at your party.

My suggested Feats:

L1: Arcane Strike
L5: Step Up
Magus 5: Intensified Spell (there's also an Intensify Spell, don't take that one)
L7: Following Step
L9: Step Up and Strike
L11: Combat Reflexes (You will never run out of AoOs)
Magus 11: Stand Still
L13: Spellbreaker (You are now the king of anti mage tactics)
L15: Improved Critical (You will never fail a crit confirmation)
L17: Destructive Dispel (stun enemies you successfully dispel)
Magus 17: Empower Spell (move this up earlier if you think you can)


This way you get to play the defensive point of your team without losing out too much on damage. You're a very effective mageslayer and you don't have to cripple yourself with an antimagic field.

Magus Arcana:

L3: Spell Shield
L6: Disruptive
L12: Prescient Attack (so that you can keep getting your Int to damage as a Kensai)
L15: Quickened Magic
L18: Maximized Magic

[Thrair]

First off, you seem to be trying to push me more towards a damage build, which while I agree is probably the best type of build in general (it's widely agreed that it's better to kill something faster than try to outlast it), you have to remember I've got to consider class/role balance. The DM is looking for 5-6 players, but most of the players applying so far are sneaky types. Aside from a couple multiclassed bards, the only other Arcane spellcaster applying is a single Wizard. And, since there's 5-6 slots and 9-10 people applying, it's not a given that we'll both be accepted, or even either of us. We also don't really have much in the way of tanky types.

I'm trying to fulfill both roles (Frontline and Arcane casting) to a moderate degree of success. A lot like how a Mystic Theurge is a crappy substitute for a Wizard or a Cleric, but can do both their roles with decent flexibility in a party that lacks both. I'm not really concerned about damage output, as most of the other players seem to be building glass cannons. So my Arcane spells won't be as much used for raw damage as support spells like dispel magic, invisibility sphere, black tentacles, etc. Spells that either buff allies or controls the battlefield. Damage we're going to have in spades, no matter who gets accepted.

I intend to be more of a tanky support caster, and as such I want to be able to wade into fights to set up for all our sneak attacks. (Seriously, like half the people applying are multiclassed ninjas or rogues, raw damage probably isn't a problem). And I'm not really trying to mix Monk and Magus. Improved Unarmed Strike (and to a degree, Dodge) is just a pre-req for Crane Style (and since the big prereq's out of the way, Deflect Arrows).

I really appreciate the honesty. But the goal is to have a Tankier Arcane Caster. So while it may not be the "best" use of a Magus, it's what I'm trying to work with. And again, I'm trying not to optimize too much in the first place. Although your bring up a VERY good point about making an optimized build and just just holding back a little if it's a problem.

Also, I'm not trying to be elitist by thinking I am "too good to play with them". I'm not sure if you meant it that way, but it came off a little bit accusingly. I'm just noticing that most of the other submitted characters are multiclass bards, ninjas, and monks. Which, though possible, doesn't really lend itself to optimizing. On top of that, a couple of them are new to Pathfinder in particular, and it's difficult to make an optimized build when you're new to the system. I tried to make a character for Eclipse Phase (before plans to play it were dropped in favour of another game), a game I'd never tried before, and ended up scrapping the character to start fresh every 15 minutes; as I learned of some rule I'd overlooked that made the character nearly useless, not very interesting, or illegal according the rules. Or some combination of the three.

[Thrair]

Ok, with the main reply out of the way, I'd like to talk about some of the game mechanics points, because I disagree with some of them, but also don't understand a few of your points and that means LEARNING TIME! :smallbiggrin:


First off, for a Magus specializing in defensive melee, why would using Anti-Magic Field when moving to attack a primary spellcaster be bad? I think I must be missing a mechanic or something.

My thinking is that because it shuts down the majority of magic spells (with only a couple still functioning), it prevents them from using any magic on you. Which leaves them with either attacking you in melee (And, as a Magus, you're probably way better at it than them), or running out of the Field. Since all their enhancement and deflection modifiers to AC/CMD, etc are turned off, as are defensive/escape spells like Mirror Image, Expeditious Retreat, Dimension Door, etc, the two feats I listed (Stand Still and Pin Down) combine to mean that you have a near guarantee of preventing them from just moving out of it, as you can prevent 5-foot step, Withdraw, and even a plain old Move Action.

You might have a point about getting the Step Up chain instead, because it's more useful in general, if not with this particular tactic. But that still leaves me wondering how a spellcaster can effectively fight back against you in this situation. Or, rather, how it hurts you more than them. Again, I must be missing something.


On a different topic, I must sing you a love song about the Crane Style feat chain.

You boost the bonus for fighting defensively by 1 (to a total of +4 with 3 skill ranks in acrobatics), reduce the penalty to -1 on attack rolls, and gain the ability to just flat out prevent a melee hit 1/round while also getting a free AoO on the person trying to hit you. Most of that is the free avoid. The AC boost isn't great, especially for 4 feats. But being able to avoid a hit each round is a godsend against heavy hitting opponents. It can, for example, negate a Crit from the Power-attacking Orc with the Greatsword.

Further more, you have to consider much of an AC multiplier that feat is. If your AC is crap, and you have the feat, you ignore one attack per round. Not worth the investment of 4 feats to just avoid one attack when each attack from a full-round attack will hit you, or when you're being swarmed by smaller minions. In that case, boosting your AC would help you much more and wouldn't take such a large feat investment.

But when your AC is already high enough that most attacks aren't going to hit you without a natural 20? Suddenly you're eliminating a sizable portion of the remaining attacks. The higher your AC and the fewer attacks are already hitting you, the more effective the feat becomes, in terms of percentage of attacks avoided. And again, with high enough AC, most of the hits that DO get through are crits. And those generally hurt like hell, especially when they have critical feats, so avoiding those is very nice.

I love the feat. It's not good for all characters, because it requires defensive fighting (so it's useless for spellcasters who aren't using melee), as well as a free hand (So no 2-handers, shields, or TWF), but for characters that can utilize those two criteria, it's amazing.

I love it on characters Prestiged into duelist, for example.

[Karoht]

Given the role you are trying to fulfill, you might be better off playing a Summoner. Tanky pet, battlefield control spells and buffs, good offense coming from the pet. Good defense from your 'get out of dodge' spells.

If you have your heart set on Magus, they really aren't defensive creatures, so a defensive build becomes less viable. If you want to be defensive, I'd focus more on debuff spells built into your attacks. In place of Shocking Grasp, I would use Frigid Touch instead. Staggered is awesome in that the target can only take Move or Standard actions. Which means no full attack for your opponent. You still have to beat SR, but there is no save on the damage or the Stagger effect. It is only slightly less damage than what was demonstrated above with Shocking Grasp. And Crits cause the Staggered condition to last 1 minute instead of 1 round. Add another feat and they're Entangled as well.
Force Punch/Forceful Strike is pretty awesome.

I would totally recommend Aqueous Orb, for the fact that playing Katamari Damacy with your enemies is all kinds of useful and fun.

Magic Missile + Toppling Spell is all kinds of useful too. Hit 5 enemies, make a Trip Attempt on each of them. Economical too.

Fire Shield + Wreath of Blades is cool too.

[Squirrel_Dude]

My personal recommendations from just a rough overview would be to switch the intelligence and the dexterity. I like the idea of the crane style tree, I just wish it had fewer feat prereqs. It's what you want to do though. I might suggest moving those feats to later in the build, and getting Arcane Strike sooner.

The biggest problem with the build is that the character is a little disjointed in what it's trying to do. It's going to be a hard to hit character (Kensai AC+Crane), a caster (high Int), a lockdown build (Stand Still, Pin Down). It's just a little to spread out for my tastes. I'd try and focus on one, or a few of these builds.

Even if what you choose isn't considered to be very effective, I think it would serve you better to be very good at that then it would to be only kind of good at a bunch of things.

[Elricaltovilla]

First off, you seem to be trying to push me more towards a damage build, which while I agree is probably the best type of build in general (it's widely agreed that it's better to kill something faster than try to outlast it), you have to remember I've got to consider class/role balance. The DM is looking for 5-6 players, but most of the players applying so far are sneaky types. Aside from a couple multiclassed bards, the only other Arcane spellcaster applying is a single Wizard. And, since there's 5-6 slots and 9-10 people applying, it's not a given that we'll both be accepted, or even either of us. We also don't really have much in the way of tanky types.

Yes, I am suggesting that you should do a more damage focused build. For several reasons:
1) It's a more efficient use of your resources, which you seem to agree with.
2) Turning out high damage is the best way to draw aggro, to borrow the MMORPG parlance. Unless you go for some specific spells/feats that maguses don't really have access to, the only way to make yourself look like a threat is to be a threat.
3) By boosting your base damage, you're boosting your AoO damage. This is key for a tank build, because you can help the sneaky types set up flanking damage and you can still be effective on your opponent's turns.


I'm trying to fulfill both roles (Frontline and Arcane casting) to a moderate degree of success. A lot like how a Mystic Theurge is a crappy substitute for a Wizard or a Cleric, but can do both their roles with decent flexibility in a party that lacks both. I'm not really concerned about damage output, as most of the other players seem to be building glass cannons. So my Arcane spells won't be as much used for raw damage as support spells like dispel magic, invisibility sphere, black tentacles, etc. Spells that either buff allies or controls the battlefield. Damage we're going to have in spades, no matter who gets accepted.

Well its good that you'll have damage in spades, but if you want to crank up the battlefield control, then you need to make sure your character can do everything in their power to control the battlefield.

As a Kensai Magus (especially with Combat Reflexes) you have a ton of Attacks of Opportunity, which you can use with feats like Step Up, Stand Still and Disruptive to control the battlefield even without using your spells.

You're capitalizing on a resource not to out damage and outshine everyone else, but to maximize your ability as your team's Battlefield Controller.


I intend to be more of a tanky support caster, and as such I want to be able to wade into fights to set up for all our sneak attacks. (Seriously, like half the people applying are multiclassed ninjas or rogues, raw damage probably isn't a problem). And I'm not really trying to mix Monk and Magus. Improved Unarmed Strike (and to a degree, Dodge) is just a pre-req for Crane Style (and since the big prereq's out of the way, Deflect Arrows).

I only said that it looked like it because you took a bunch of feats that are intended for monks and put them on a magus. Don't get me wrong, I love monks and I love maguses, but they don't mix well. There are other feats which will help you tank and control the battlefield better than crane style. The crane style feats improve your defenses, but they don't make you more of a threat which is what a tank needs to be.


I really appreciate the honesty. But the goal is to have a Tankier Arcane Caster. So while it may not be the "best" use of a Magus, it's what I'm trying to work with. And again, I'm trying not to optimize too much in the first place. Although your bring up a VERY good point about making an optimized build and just just holding back a little if it's a problem.

Its easy to tailor your build once you see how good everyone else is and how they play together. A magus can make a pretty good tank with their spells and arcanas focused defensively, but the best way to keep your party alive is to build to the highest level you can, and then play to the level of the rest of the party/DM.


Also, I'm not trying to be elitist by thinking I am "too good to play with them". I'm not sure if you meant it that way, but it came off a little bit accusingly. I'm just noticing that most of the other submitted characters are multiclass bards, ninjas, and monks. Which, though possible, doesn't really lend itself to optimizing. On top of that, a couple of them are new to Pathfinder in particular, and it's difficult to make an optimized build when you're new to the system. I tried to make a character for Eclipse Phase (before plans to play it were dropped in favour of another game), a game I'd never tried before, and ended up scrapping the character to start fresh every 15 minutes; as I learned of some rule I'd overlooked that made the character nearly useless, not very interesting, or illegal according the rules. Or some combination of the three.

I didn't mean to imply you were being elitist, and I hope I didn't offend you :smallredface:. I'm just trying to help.


Ok, with the main reply out of the way, I'd like to talk about some of the game mechanics points, because I disagree with some of them, but also don't understand a few of your points and that means LEARNING TIME! :smallbiggrin:

First off, for a Magus specializing in defensive melee, why would using Anti-Magic Field when moving to attack a primary spellcaster be bad? I think I must be missing a mechanic or something.

Because it's not just your opponent losing his buffs. It's you losing your buffs, your rogue losing his buffs, the paladin losing his buffs, the bard losing his buffs, and everyone else within 60 feet losing their buffs.

But you know who doesn't lose his buffs? The 15th level Orc rogue with a +5 Composite Longbow and the Sniper Archetype who hits you for a full attack with rapid shot and multishot from 100ft away. Learn from my mistakes and don't repeat them :smallsmile:.

A magus has access to Mirror Image, Blur, Invisibilty, Haste, Wind Wall, Mostrous Physique, and all kinds of buffing spells. A wizard or Bard can cast Mage Armor or Magic Vestment on your pants to shore up your AC. All of those hundreds of thousands of gold pieces your party spent on fancy weapon and armor enchantments? Gone.

When you use Antimagic Field, you're not just hurting your opponent, you're hurting everyone around you. The other spells you have as a magus are much, much, much better defensively than Antimagic Field.


My thinking is that because it shuts down the majority of magic spells (with only a couple still functioning), it prevents them from using any magic on you. Which leaves them with either attacking you in melee (And, as a Magus, you're probably way better at it than them), or running out of the Field. Since all their enhancement and deflection modifiers to AC/CMD, etc are turned off, as are defensive/escape spells like Mirror Image, Expeditious Retreat, Dimension Door, etc, the two feats I listed (Stand Still and Pin Down) combine to mean that you have a near guarantee of preventing them from just moving out of it, as you can prevent 5-foot step, Withdraw, and even a plain old Move Action.

I addressed this above but, I'll reiterate because it's important. When you use AntiMagic Field, it shuts down much more useful spells, not just on you and your opponent, but on your allies as well. You're cutting into not just your Defenses, but also your DPS, your Utility, and your Battlefield Control.

Plus, you might be a better fighter than a magic-less wizard, but you're not a better fighter than a magic-less shapeshifted dragon. Learn from my mistakes, don't repeat them :smallsmile:.


You might have a point about getting the Step Up chain instead, because it's more useful in general, if not with this particular tactic. But that still leaves me wondering how a spellcaster can effectively fight back against you in this situation. Or, rather, how it hurts you more than them. Again, I must be missing something.

Your spells are more valuable than their spells. An enemy only exists from the moment you see him, until the moment he lies twitching on the ground at your feet. Your spells need to last you as long as possible, and have to be able to benefit not just you, but also your team.


On a different topic, I must sing you a love song about the Crane Style feat chain.

You boost the bonus for fighting defensively by 1 (to a total of +4 with 3 skill ranks in acrobatics), reduce the penalty to -1 on attack rolls, and gain the ability to just flat out prevent a melee hit 1/round while also getting a free AoO on the person trying to hit you. Most of that is the free avoid. The AC boost isn't great, especially for 4 feats. But being able to avoid a hit each round is a godsend against heavy hitting opponents. It can, for example, negate a Crit from the Power-attacking Orc with the Greatsword.

Further more, you have to consider much of an AC multiplier that feat is. If your AC is crap, and you have the feat, you ignore one attack per round. Not worth the investment of 4 feats to just avoid one attack when each attack from a full-round attack will hit you, or when you're being swarmed by smaller minions. In that case, boosting your AC would help you much more and wouldn't take such a large feat investment.

You know what else is an AC multiplier? Arcane Shield. You just doubled your INT to AC for a round.

Here's another one: Mirror Image. For the cost of one 2nd level spell, you get a minimum of 4 images at 10th level. Your opponent now has only a 20% chance to hit you for the next 10 minutes.

Blur is another great AC multiplier, stacked with Mirror Image, your opponent now only has a 5% chance to hit you.

Crane Style is good for characters who don't have access to spells and magus arcana. You are a master of Sword and Sorcery, and you have ascended beyond the needs of petty mortal warriors.


But when your AC is already high enough that most attacks aren't going to hit you without a natural 20? Suddenly you're eliminating a sizable portion of the remaining attacks. The higher your AC and the fewer attacks are already hitting you, the more effective the feat becomes, in terms of percentage of attacks avoided. And again, with high enough AC, most of the hits that DO get through are crits. And those generally hurt like hell, especially when they have critical feats, so avoiding those is very nice.

I love the feat. It's not good for all characters, because it requires defensive fighting (so it's useless for spellcasters who aren't using melee), as well as a free hand (So no 2-handers, shields, or TWF), but for characters that can utilize those two criteria, it's amazing.

I love it on characters Prestiged into duelist, for example.

Are you planning on prestiging into Duelist? If not, don't bother with the feat.

You have a million and a half ways to avoid getting hit, you don't need an extra one that takes up half your build to get. What you need to be doing is making yourself big and dangerous so that your enemies are paying attention to you, not the little halfling with the two Kukris standing behind them.

[Thrair]

My personal recommendations from just a rough overview would be to switch the intelligence and the dexterity. I like the idea of the crane style tree, I just wish it had fewer feat prereqs. It's what you want to do though. I might suggest moving those feats to later in the build, and getting Arcane Strike sooner.

The biggest problem with the build is that the character is a little disjointed in what it's trying to do. It's going to be a hard to hit character (Kensai AC+Crane), a caster (high Int), a lockdown build (Stand Still, Pin Down). It's just a little to spread out for my tastes. I'd try and focus on one, or a few of these builds.

Even if what you choose isn't considered to be very effective, I think it would serve you better to be very good at that then it would to be only kind of good at a bunch of things.


Good point. Perhaps, in my desire to fill gaps in the party makeup, I spread the character into too many Niche roles. Perhaps it's better to focus on the two important aspects: Hard to hit and spellcasting. So I'll look into tweaking the build and focusing more on those traits and drop the lockdown aspect. Although I think I might use those lockdown elements if I ever make another Magus and specialize him in damage dealing.

[Thrair]

@Ericol, a lot of what you said made a hell of a lot of sense. Though as a minor nitpick, Anti-Magic field only has a 10ft radius. So it's only nailing your party if everyone's clumped up. Given it's dismissable, my intended use for it was locking down a wizard/cleric/sorceror/etc, and dismissing it when it was no longer needed or there was a need to cast spells.

As for my desire to use Crane Style over things like Arcane Shield, part of that is habit. My regular gaming group has a DM who runs campaigns with multiple encounters in a given day. Usually role-play sessions will stretch over days or weeks in-game without a battle, while once we start getting into the combat sessions, the action is fast-paced and there's lots of things crashing down in a short amount of time without the characters having a chance to rest. He tries to avoid the common scenario where people blow everything on an encounter then rest just to regain spells.

As an example:
One time, our party got it's ass kicked and had to run to avoid a TPK. Because the Big Bad of the story wanted us frickin' dead (we kind of... exploded his mansion), we got chased. Over several days in story... with our characters not having a chance to rest. It was a very fun session. The spellcasters had to play triage with their remaining spells and the Barbarian was the one patching everyone up with his ranks in Survival and Heal (he was RP'ing a woodland barbarian... very self sufficient) by scrounging for herbs to treat the wounds. Meanwhile, the Paladin had to save his last LoHs to keep the Barbarian and Fighter free of fatigue (yay Mercy).

Because of that, I have a habit of making builds that have staying power. While Arcane Shield is very nice, it only lasts one round. Although, to be fair, I don't know this DM's exact playstyle.

That said, I'm going to be adjusting my build.




P.S.
If I ever see a spellcaster ignore magic to try and brawl with a DRAGON in hand-to-hand, of their own accord.... I'm giving them a high five for being a brave, beautiful mother-****er. Then I'm going to try and find the other remaining pieces so we can get them a raise dead. And perhaps buy them a few scrolls of Owl's Wisdom.

P.S.S.
In the future, if I were you, I'd dismiss the Anti-Magic Field when it turns out the squishy old wizard was actually a 50 foot long fire-breathing lizard without that spell. Hopefully when the Field goes down and spell goes back up, the Dragon will be nice enough to remain a squishy old man.

[Elricaltovilla]

@Ericol, a lot of what you said made a hell of a lot of sense. Though as a minor nitpick, Anti-Magic field only has a 10ft radius. So it's only nailing your party if everyone's clumped up. Given it's dismissable, my intended use for it was locking down a wizard/cleric/sorceror/etc, and dismissing it when it was no longer needed or there was a need to cast spells.

You are correct sir (or madam) in your nitpicking. However, I would still like to point out that every time you cast Antimagic Field, you're giving up the opportunity to cast a different spell.




P.S.
If I ever see a spellcaster ignore magic to try and brawl with a DRAGON in hand-to-hand, of their own accord.... I'm giving them a high five for being a brave, beautiful mother-****er. Then I'm going to try and find the other remaining pieces so we can get them a raise dead. And perhaps buy them a few scrolls of Owl's Wisdom.

Luckily I had raise dead insurance (TM). That particular character was a frequent customer at the church of Pharasma.



P.S.S.
In the future, if I were you, I'd dismiss the Anti-Magic Field when it turns out the squishy old wizard was actually a 50 foot long fire-breathing lizard without that spell. Hopefully when the Field goes down and spell goes back up, the Dragon will be nice enough to remain a squishy old man.

See, that was my plan, but the dragon's plan was:

"It's my turn now, bitch." *swallows whole.

[Daftendirekt]

Lose Improved Unarmed Strike and take Intensify Spell instead.

I cannot tell you how much I see people get this wrong. Intensify Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/meta/intensify-spell-metamagic) is a ****ty 3rd party feat. You want Intensified Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/intensified-spell-metamagic). GET IT RIGHT, people!

[Elricaltovilla]

I cannot tell you how much I see people get this wrong. Intensify Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/meta/intensify-spell-metamagic) is a ****ty 3rd party feat. You want Intensified Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/intensified-spell-metamagic). GET IT RIGHT, people!

That was a typo on my part, if you look in the spoilered section under Feats, you'll see I corrected myself.

But yes, big mistake if you take the wrong one.

[Karoht]

Because it's not just your opponent losing his buffs. It's you losing your buffs, your rogue losing his buffs, the paladin losing his buffs, the bard losing his buffs, and everyone else within 60 feet losing their buffs.Since when is Anti Magic Field a 60ft radius? It is a 10ft, centered on you.

"Range 10 ft.
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration 10 min./level (D)"
Not sure where you are getting 60ft from. But, your recommendation still stands.


But you know who doesn't lose his buffs? The 15th level Orc rogue with a +5 Composite Longbow and the Sniper Archetype who hits you for a full attack with rapid shot and multishot from 100ft away. Learn from my mistakes and don't repeat them :smallsmile:.Or a Gunslinger hitting Touch AC's. Or any caster who knows how to use Conjuration spells properly.



Crane Style is good for characters who don't have access to spells and magus arcana. You are a master of Sword and Sorcery, and you have ascended beyond the needs of petty mortal warriors.This is a salient point. Spells can be spent over and over. Feat choices, especially 4 of them, are much less flexible. I like the concept of the defensive build you are going for, but 4 feats for not much effect really is a questionable expense.

[Thrair]

See, that was my plan, but the dragon's plan was:

"It's my turn now, bitch." *swallows whole.

"You swallowed me whole? You cheeky sonuvabitch. Well.... guess we get to find out what happens when a man-sized meal in a dragon sized belly becomes a man-sized meal in a man-sized belly, *******!" *dismisses spell* *splooge (one way or the other)*

[Daftendirekt]

That was a typo on my part, if you look in the spoilered section under Feats, you'll see I corrected myself.

But yes, big mistake if you take the wrong one.

Don't mean to harp on you personally, it's just even the magus guide (https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1DB6sOfbAzFmKVPgcyLWipTVqvWFjfDSv6v_YiGQb5Y w#id.u2gdircugshm) has it wrong.

[Elricaltovilla]

"You swallowed me whole? You cheeky sonuvabitch. Well.... guess we get to find out what happens when a man-sized meal in a dragon sized belly becomes a man-sized meal in a man-sized belly, *******!" *dismisses spell* *splooge (one way or the other)*

He dismissed his Shapechange ability as soon as he swallowed me whole.

The AMF going up, the dragon dissmissing his polymorph and Me getting swallowed all happened in the space of two rounds.

[Thrair]

Kensai 20
Human
Neutral Good, Sarenrae

Bonus Feat:
1: Weapon Finesse
Magus Bonus Feats:
1: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
5: Crane Style
11: Crane Riposte
17: Toughness
Level Feats:
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
3: Dervish Dance
5: Dodge
7: Intensified Spell
9: Crane Wing
11: Arcane Strike
13: Deflect Arrows
15: Step Up
17: Improved Critical (Scimitar)
19: Destructive Dispel

Magus Arcana
3: Silent Magic
6: Disruptive
12: Maximized Magic
15: Quickened Magic
18: Spell-Blending (Anti-Magic Field)

I'm too fond of the defensive aspects of Crane Style to give it up, even if that curtails my damage a bit. Picked up Intensified Spell as well. I didn't know about this particular Metamagic, or had never looked at it. With Shocking Grasp it's AMAZING. I might see if I can swing switching a trait to get Magical Lineage for it, though that might cross the line to powergaming, because it's frankly an overpowered trait.

I also have the old build as an option, as it looks like a lot of fun. We'll see how optimized everyone else is when the group's makeup is finalized. Hell. I might not even get selected, so everything's still up in the air.

Thanks for the advice guys, especially with your patience in trying to help make a build work for something the class isn't exactly designed for.

And shame about the dragon dismissing the Shapechange. Would have be awesome to pull an inverted Darth V on him. Serves the overgrown lizards right for not chewing.

[Elricaltovilla]

Kensai 20
Human
Neutral Good, Sarenrae

Bonus Feat:
1: Weapon Finesse
Magus Bonus Feats:
1: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
5: Crane Style
11: Crane Riposte
17: Toughness

Level Feats:
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
3: Dervish Dance
5: Dodge
7: Intensified Spell
9: Crane Wing
11: Arcane Strike
13: Deflect Arrows
15: Step Up
17: Improved Critical (Scimitar)
19: Destructive Dispel

Magus Arcana
3: Silent Magic
6: Disruptive
12: Maximized Magic
15: Quickened Magic
18: Spell-Blending (Anti-Magic Field)



I went ahead and bolded the parts you changed on your build. I'm going to go ahead and reiterate some of what I already said, but I won't try and change your mind about Crane Style.

1. You don't need Toughness. Especially not at level 17. Take something else. Spell Perfection(Shocking Grasp) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection) for example.

2. I feel the same way about Deflect Arrows as I do about toughness. You have spells that make this feat entirely useless for you. Wind Wall, Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement, Invisibility. Take any other feat. Use some of the ones I already suggested, especially.

3. You don't need Improved Critical because you can Keen your weapon for the same effect for 1 Arcane Point, and Keen and Improved Critical don't stack. Once you get Keen and Speed on your scimitar, anything else you add is just for funzies.

4. Silent Magic is... OK, but you can do better. I know you can. Have I suggested Prescient Attack yet? It flatfoots your opponent until the end of your next turn, which means you get to add your Int to damage against them, one of the key features of being a Kensai.

5. If you ignore all of my other advice, please, please, please just take Antimagic Field off your Arcana List. I'm going to be up late at night and unable to sleep because I'll be too busy worrying about your magus if you give him Antimagic Field.

[Thrair]

Yah, I was on the Fence about Improved Critical.... but look.... I'm REALLY damn tired atm..... I've been awake a little over 30 hours and I'm having trouble staying awake atm.... so I'll come back to this tommorow, eh?

[Thrair]

Ok, now that I've slept, he's a more finalized build for tanky/support caster Magus of inefficient allocation of resources.


Racial: Weapon Finesse
Kensai: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
3: Dervish Dance
5: Dodge
Magus 5: Crane Style
7: Intensified Spell
9: Crane Wing
11: Arcane Strike
Magus 11: Crane Riposte
13: Step Up
15: Toughness
17: Following Step
Magus 17: Step Up and Strike
19: Destructive Dispel

Magus Arcana
3: Silent Magic
6: Disruptive
12: Maximized Magic
15: Quickened Magic
18: Spell-Blending (Anti-Magic Field)

Traits were chosen for fluff:
-Open Hand and Mind (While the character won't be played as a monk hybrid, his backstory involves spending time among them)
-Blade of Mercy (Devout Sarenrae, tries to avoid killing repentant opponents)

Then, because Magical Lineage is overpowered for a trait, I took Attached as a flaw to compensate. DM says they're probably going to put it on a party member so it's usually in effect.




And, so you guys don't think too poorly of me, he's a build I'd make if going for a more traditional Magus build focused on killing.


Racial: Weapon Finesse
Kensai: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
1: Toughness
3: Dervish Dance
5: Arcane Strike
Magus 5: Step Up
7: Intensified Spell
9: Lunge
11: Spell Penetration
Magus 11: Combat Reflexes
13: Spell Penetration, Greater
15: Dodge
17: Mobility
Magus 17: Combat Patrol
19: Destructive Dispel

Magus Arcana
3: Spell Shield (Especially useful when using Combat Patrol)
6: Disruptive
12: Maximized Magic
15: Quickened Magic
18: Spell-Blending (Heroism, Greater)


Though I'm sure this build have some things that you could improve, it's an example of a build more suited to the base advantages of the class. Kensai is, after all, a lot more dedicated to melee that a standard Magus. And while I'm pretty sure the chief complaint will be Combat Patrol, I've found it a nifty ability for maximizing AoOs in situations with lots of combatants, especially if some of them are casting from "safety".

[Elricaltovilla]

Hello again! Are you tired of me showing up yet?:smalltongue:

So my first question is: Which build are you planning on using in play?

And my second question is: Which parts of the build are you willing to change?

My last question is a bit more specific:

Traits were chosen for fluff:
-Open Hand and Mind (While the character won't be played as a monk hybrid, his backstory involves spending time among them)
-Blade of Mercy (Devout Sarenrae, tries to avoid killing repentant opponents)

Then, because Magical Lineage is overpowered for a trait, I took Attached as a flaw to compensate. DM says they're probably going to put it on a party member so it's usually in effect.


You don't have Magical Lineage listed anywhere on this build, so what's with the second paragraph?

[Thrair]

Hello again! Are you tired of me showing up yet?:smalltongue:

In much the same way one is not eager to see their Professor as he turns out grades to a paper they suspect they did poorly on: Yes. :smallredface:


So my first question is: Which build are you planning on using in play?

Assuming I'm accepted into the group, either the Original build if everyone's not optimized, because it DOES look like fun, or the first build of the previous post if they are more optimized than I thought.

That final build was more of a demonstration: I *can* make more generalized builds that aren't as gimmicky when I need to. Although those builds have a tendency to be low on flavour.

For example, there's this really fun Spellsplinger 9/Gunslinger 1/Eldritch Knight 10 build I've been tinkering with that, while good at nuking, is useless for most general utility.... but it would be crazy awesome to play as, in terms of flavour and fun.


And my second question is: Which parts of the build are you willing to change?

In terms of the first build of the previous post, every feat past level 11. I'm too attached to the Crane Wing feat chain on this character, at this point. It's now a lot of the character personality, as well. Those feats were selecting to increase the generalist aspects of the build since the first half of the build is very much a niche build.

In addition, I'm not dropping the Maximized Magic and Quick Magic arcana. They're too useful. As for the rest, I could be persuaded out them. I rather like Anti-Magic Field, however. It's not a very situational spell, but it is EXTREMELY potent in those situations. And it's utility in that regard isn't possible in other means. For example, while stripping most of you spell defenses and enhancement bonuses puts you in danger from physical attackers, especially ranged attackers, it makes you largely immune to direct assault from a mage. I also once saw it (in a game I was spectating) used to great effect against trio of powerful wizard villains. The cleric using it (Domain Spell, I think it was) was a heavily armored cleric. He just waded through the field suppressing spell effects like Black Tentacle, Ice Storm, etc so the rest of the party could advance through the traps and area of effect spells unscathed.

Yes, I agree Anti-Magic Field is a risky spell to use. But it's a high reward spell as well, if you can use it at the right time. And most of the other 6th Level Wizard spells unavailable to the Magus have effects that can be achieved or duplicated by other spells.



My last question is a bit more specific: You don't have Magical Lineage listed anywhere on this build, so what's with the second paragraph?

I guess I should have clarified: The first two traits were the stock 2 traits allowed if a GM runs a campaign using them. Then I was going to take Magical Lineage with a flaw. I could always just take Magical Lineage instead of Open Hand and Mind, but Magical Lineage is damn near a broken trait with certain builds, and I figured it was more fair to have a penalty for taking it.

On the subject of awesome traits, Magical Knack is also nice. And would be on-par with the "trait = half a feat" goal of the Devs.... assuming Pathfinder had the Practiced Spellcaster feat (The fact that it doesn't is such crap and REALLY hamstrings any Mystic Theurge builds).

[Elricaltovilla]

Ok, now that I've slept, he's a more finalized build for tanky/support caster Magus of inefficient allocation of resources.


Racial: Weapon Finesse
Kensai: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
3: Dervish Dance
5: Dodge
Magus 5: Crane Style
7: Intensified Spell
9: Crane Wing
11: Arcane Strike
Magus 11: Crane Riposte
13: Step Up
15: Toughness Lunge, Flanking Foil, Minor Spell Expertise, or Spell Penetration
17: Following Step
Magus 17: Step Up and Strike
19: Destructive Dispel

Magus Arcana
3: Silent Magic
6: Disruptive
12: Maximized Magic
15: Quickened Magic
18: Spell-Blending (Anti-Magic Field) Spell Blending (Greater Heroism) Spell Blending (Permanency) Spell Blending (Literally Anything Else!) Critical Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/critical-strike-su) Lingering Pain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/lingering-pain-su)

Traits were chosen for fluff:
-Open Hand and Mind (While the character won't be played as a monk hybrid, his backstory involves spending time among them)
-Blade of Mercy (Devout Sarenrae, tries to avoid killing repentant opponents)

Then, because Magical Lineage is overpowered for a trait, I took Attached as a flaw to compensate. DM says they're probably going to put it on a party member so it's usually in effect.

I left everything before Level 11 alone, as per your request. But we still need to talk about some things.

Toughness will get you a total of 20 extra HP over the course of your Magus Career. You get 20 HP from your favored class bonus (which had better be Magus :smalltongue:). Ergo, you don't need toughness. I listed a bunch of alternative feats that will improve your tankiness without stepping on the DPS's toes too much.

Every time you think about taking Antimagic Field, I want you to think about getting shot in the face with an arrow, mauled to death by a dragon, chop sueyed by a TWF Fighter, having your kidneys surgically removed by a sneak attacking rogue/ninja, the wizard dropping a wall of stone on your head, the cleric hitting you in the nuts with a morningstar, the sorcerer bashing your face in with a Falchion (because he has the orc bloodline and +6 inherent bonus to STR). Then imagine all of that happening to the rogue who's using you to get the flanking bonus so he can sneak attack the wizard, and realize that AMF makes you a terrible tank, and a worse team player.

Take Permanency, so you can permanently enhance your allies with spells. Take Greater Heroism so that you can empower yourself and your allies.
Take another spell that you can use to buff your allies or actually debuff your enemies.
Take Critical Strike to capitalize on your critical hits, and use Frigid Touch to stagger your opponents if you don't want to kill them outright.
Take Lingering Pain to make the wizard's concentration checks a near automatic fail.



And, so you guys don't think too poorly of me, he's a build I'd make if going for a more traditional Magus build focused on killing.


Racial: Weapon Finesse
Kensai: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
1: Toughness
3: Dervish Dance
5: Arcane Strike
Magus 5: Step Up
7: Intensified Spell
9: Lunge
11: Spell Penetration
Magus 11: Combat Reflexes
13: Spell Penetration, Greater
15: Dodge
17: Mobility
Magus 17: Combat Patrol
19: Destructive Dispel

Magus Arcana
3: Spell Shield (Especially useful when using Combat Patrol)
6: Disruptive
12: Maximized Magic
15: Quickened Magic
18: Spell-Blending (Heroism, Greater)


Though I'm sure this build have some things that you could improve, it's an example of a build more suited to the base advantages of the class. Kensai is, after all, a lot more dedicated to melee that a standard Magus. And while I'm pretty sure the chief complaint will be Combat Patrol, I've found it a nifty ability for maximizing AoOs in situations with lots of combatants, especially if some of them are casting from "safety".

I'm actually impressed with combat patrol. But you could stand to lose the two Spell Penetrations for Following Step and Step Up and Strike. Now you're tanking!

[Thrair]

Ok, first of all, thanks for all the advice. You strike me as a kindred spirit in having the urge to tinker with builds, and I get the feeling mine is driving you slightly bananas. Just be glad I didn't pull "An Eric" (to borrow from my gaming group's jargon) and take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Gnome.


I might swap out Toughness for Lunge... It's a choice between raw health, which increases my survivability in any situation, and Lunge, which gives me more tactical flexibility in both dealing damage and potentially avoiding it.

I'll have time to see how the DM plays encounters to find out which would be more useful.


As for Anti-Magic Field..... I'm still really torn, but I'll consider just taking Greater Heroism. Again, I'll have time to see which will be more useful long before I reach that level, assuming we even do reach level 18.


Again, thanks for all the advice. Greatly appreciate it.

[Elricaltovilla]

Ok, first of all, thanks for all the advice. You strike me as a kindred spirit in having the urge to tinker with builds, and I get the feeling mine is driving you slightly bananas. Just be glad I didn't pull "An Eric" (to borrow from my gaming group's jargon) and take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Gnome.


I might swap out Toughness for Lunge... It's a choice between raw health, which increases my survivability in any situation, and Lunge, which gives me more tactical flexibility in both dealing damage and potentially avoiding it.

I'll have time to see how the DM plays encounters to find out which would be more useful.


As for Anti-Magic Field..... I'm still really torn, but I'll consider just taking Greater Heroism. Again, I'll have time to see which will be more useful long before I reach that level, assuming we even do reach level 18.


Again, thanks for all the advice. Greatly appreciate it.


I'm glad I could help. I am a huge fan of the magus class so I apologize if I came off a little intense.

And if I was your DM, I would not only allow you to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Gnome, I would also allow you to use Craft Magical Arms and Armor to enhance the gnome and work with you to develop a special "Gnome Fighter" Prestige Class.:smallamused:

[Daftendirekt]

As for Anti-Magic Field..... I'm still really torn


Don't be. As a gish, you don't want it. The only person who really wants an AMF is a Runescarred Berserker.

[Thrair]

I'm glad I could help. I am a huge fan of the magus class so I apologize if I came off a little intense.

And if I was your DM, I would not only allow you to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Gnome, I would also allow you to use Craft Magical Arms and Armor to enhance the gnome and work with you to develop a special "Gnome Fighter" Prestige Class.:smallamused:

No worries. Like I said, you just strike me as an enthusiast when it comes to builds.


As for the Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Gnome... what basically happened, as I understand (this wasn't a campaign I played in), was a critical failure on a Dirty Trick maneuver resulting in the party's Gnomish Rogue getting tangled up in a Large sized whip.
Which the Party's fighter decided to pick up, with the gnome still attached to the other end, and start swinging around into a melee....
While the Gnome panicked and starting flailing his daggers around randomly...
Which meant the fighter essentially had an improvised flail with a blender attachment...
As I understand it, because of a lot of natural 20s with this improvised weapon, it proved to be VERY effective.

"Gnome on a Rope" is now a term for any half-assed and insane plan that is just crazy enough to be awesome. (I'm sorry, did you think I was gonna say "work"? Pfh... next time they tried that, a fumble resulted in the gnome getting sent flying off a nearby cliff).

Normally that DM doesn't use fumbles or critical failures like that... but sometimes the opportunity presents itself to make a session so memorable people will talk about it for years.

[Elricaltovilla]

I am a build enthusiast, yes. This was a pretty interesting challenge actually, because I was trying to help you build a magus that doesn't really do what a magus is supposed to do. It was fun though.

There comes a point though, where you just have to say "**** Optimization, I want to rip someone's arm off and beat them to death with it." and no matter how bad an idea that is mechanically, it's just too much fun to say no to.

[Thrair]

I am a build enthusiast, yes. This was a pretty interesting challenge actually, because I was trying to help you build a magus that doesn't really do what a magus is supposed to do. It was fun though.

There comes a point though, where you just have to say "**** Optimization, I want to rip someone's arm off and beat them to death with it." and no matter how bad an idea that is mechanically, it's just too much fun to say no to.

Let's see:
1: Your CMB vs their CMD to start a grapple.
2: Your CMD vs their CMB to see you prevent them breaking the grapple on their turn.
3: Your CMB vs their CMD to maintain the grapple while attempting to deal damage, probably attempting numerous opposed strength checks to try and rip their arm out of it's socket.
5: Yelling at the Rogue and Wizard to lay off because "this one's mine".
6: Repeat of 2 and 3 until you succeed at tearing the arm off.
7: Free action to release grapple.
8: Standard action to begin attacking target with their own arm, taking improvised weapon penalties and dealing non-lethal damage.
9: Repeat of 8 until target is unconcious.
10: Wizard finishes preparing spells for the day.
11: Continue attacking target with the arm until their non-lethal damage is past their Constitution in negative health, and they start taking lethal damage.
12: Continue attacking target until they die.
13: When rogue tells you they could have killed the target in 2 rounds, smile. Then tell them "Sure, but I just beat him to death with his own arm!" Then hit them in the face with the wet end.

[Elricaltovilla]

If their armor has armor spikes on it, then the arm should do lethal damage.