Exalted Fighter - SO MANY FEATS

[Hytheter]

So earlier today I was reading into the Vow of Poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds and I was somewhat intrigued by the Bonus Exalted feats, and I had an idea.

Choosing human, you can use the level 1 and human bonus feats to take Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty right of the bat, netting you a free Exalted Feat, as well as your Fighter Bonus Feat. Levelling up, you end up with a grand total 30 feats! (11 Fighter Bonus Feats, 11 Bonus Exalted Feats, 1 Human Feat and 7 regular feats)

Now, this almost seems worth using just for the hilarity of having such a huge number of feats. My main concern*, however, is that many of the exalted feats I can find are oriented towards thematically fitting classes (Paladin, Monk, and for some reason there's a Barbarian one), often with class-based pre-requisites. As a result, the Fighter barely even qualifies for 11 Exalted Feats, let alone useful ones.

So what I want to know is, what Exalted Feats do you think are worth taking for a Fighter? Are there any outside of BoED? And besides that, how should an Exalted Fighter be built?

I'm thinking, since its Simple Weapons only, it'd be useful to take a quarterstaff and head up the TWF route. The prerequisite DEX scores are useful for AC anyway. I'm considering the Weapon Focus>Specialization>Mastery>Supremacy tree too; I'm not exactly feat-starved after all.

So what do you think?

*I mean, aside from the plethora of concerns already inherent with the vow of poverty. I'm not here to discuss that.

[Urpriest]

There are better Exalted feats in some Forgotten Realms books. Champions of Valor I believe?

[Rebel7284]

Use them as fuel for embrace the dark chaos/shun the dark chaos. Somewhat unusual flavor as a result (super chaotic exalted character) but at least you can get USEFUL feats as a result.

You can take Martial Study and Martial Stance a bunch of times and be a half progression Warblade! This makes you way better than a pure fighter.

:D

Edit:

OR Take Magical Training
wait until Epic and then take Improved Spell Capacity a bunch of times for truly awesome casting ability. :P

[Hytheter]

There are better Exalted feats in some Forgotten Realms books. Champions of Valor I believe?

Oh yeah, there's a few. They're still mostly class dependant, and a few are very setting specific.


Use them as fuel for embrace the dark chaos/shun the dark chaos. Somewhat unusual flavor as a result (super chaotic exalted character) but at least you can get USEFUL feats as a result.

You can take Martial Study and Martial Stance a bunch of times and be a half progression Warblade! This makes you way better than a pure fighter.

Well, if I was gonna spend all my Fighter Feats on trying to be a warblade, I might as well just be a Warblade...

Using them to fuel Embrace the Dark chaos is... an amusing idea lol. And then shunning it to get completely different feats? Hahahahaha actually this has to happen. Using those two spells together enough times can get you an extra 11 feats of any kind. That... seems like its cheating, but I love it.

[Rebel7284]

When you are playing the most equipment dependent class without equipment, even this type of "cheating" won't help much sadly. Also, see my edit. ;)

[Piggy Knowles]

When you are playing the most equipment dependent class without equipment, even this type of "cheating" won't help much sadly. Also, see my edit. ;)

Well, once you shuffle away Vow of Poverty, it won't be such an issue, no?

Also, Martial Study can only be taken up to three times.

[Rebel7284]

Well, once you shuffle away Vow of Poverty, it won't be such an issue, no?

I could see many DMs making you lose the shuffled feats in this case...



Also, Martial Study can only be taken up to three times.

Martial Stance has no such limitations. To be fair, having 20 stances is less useful. xD

[Hytheter]

OR Take Magical Training
wait until Epic and then take Improved Spell Capacity a bunch of times for truly awesome casting ability. :P
Magical Training is 1st Level only, and I've spent all my normal first level feats on taking vows. And since Magical Training is neither and Exalted Feat nor a Fighter Bonus Feat...

The Emrace/Shun the Dark Chaos thing is actually potentially potent though at very high levels. You work your way up to level, or earlier if you're so inclined, gathering useless Exalted Feats... then you get your Wizard buddy to cast a whole bunch of spells on you, first replacing all of your exalted feats with Abyssal Heritor feats - including your Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty - then replacing those with 13 fresh new useful feats. Borrow some equipment and BAM suddenly your a regular old Level 20 Fighter... with 11 more feats than usual. :P

The hard part is justifying all this to the DM flavour-wise.
"the wizard captures me and performs a long series of darm magic experiments, twisting and corrupting me, only to restore me. Spiritually, I've been damaged, but physically... *picks up a pair of swords, eviscerates everything within reach, drops the swords draws a bow and one-shots everthing within a 100ft radius*... the experiment was a success".

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can get even more feats by dipping 2 levels each of Martial Rogue, Psychic Warrior and Monk.
You'll lose 3 BAB but who cares, it's not like anybody expects you to actually accomplish something :smallbiggrin:

[Hytheter]

You can get even more feats by dipping 2 levels each of Martial Rogue, Psychic Warrior and Monk.
You'll lose 3 BAB but who cares, it's not like anybody expects you to actually accomplish something :smallbiggrin:

I won't lie, the thought had occured to me.

I wonder, with sufficient low-level dips, what is the absolute highest number of feats possible?

[Urpriest]

I won't lie, the thought had occured to me.

I wonder, with sufficient low-level dips, what is the absolute highest number of feats possible?

That's a very dark road to go down. You get into founding multiple legacy weapons, using feat-granting locations multiple times...it's not pretty.

[Hytheter]

That's a very dark road to go down. You get into founding multiple legacy weapons, using feat-granting locations multiple times...it's not pretty.

Oh, I mean solely by level-up means, lots of low-level dips that grant bonus feats etc

[Rebel7284]

That's a very dark road to go down. You get into founding multiple legacy weapons, using feat-granting locations multiple times...it's not pretty.

This.

But as far as just using classes goes:
Off the top of my head:

Cloistered Cleric 1/Erudite 1/Monk 2/Figher 2/Feat Rogue 2/Wizard 1/WuGen 1/Psion 1/Psychic Warrior 2/
Goes to level 13, but I am sure there are more.

[Hytheter]

Swashbuckler 1 adds Weapon Finesse
Or is that covered by one of the classes you listed?

[Rebel7284]

Swashbuckler 1 adds Weapon Finesse
Or is that covered by one of the classes you listed?

You can add that. Also realized Marshal gives Skill Focus Diplomacy. We didn't even start with PrCs yet!

[Darrin]

So what I want to know is, what Exalted Feats do you think are worth taking for a Fighter?


About the same number of monk levels this board generally recommends for unarmed strike builds. (Hint: 1 is generally considered "too many".)



I wonder, with sufficient low-level dips, what is the absolute highest number of feats possible?

True Dilletante (http://community.wizards.com/forumhandler?t=987313) clocks in with 504. But if you allow things like Otyugh Hole and Legacy feats to be bought and then Dark Chaos Shuffled, then you're only really limited by WBL.

[Ruethgar]

Rebel beat me to it.

If third party is available. Take one level in wizard for a raven familar, spend a flaw and your first feat on Infernal Pact from AEG's Evil handbook and Wealth from the same book and you should be able to afford a 1/week command word item of chaos shuffle, give it to your raven. Be sure to write out a transfer of ownership and have it notarized by a church. Now you can take the rest as fighter, have your raven re-write your Scribe Scroll feat, Infernal Pact and Wealth to whatever you want. If you are an elf, that's 4 more feats to re-write. Do note that you will piss of a devil by doing this since you are revoking a pact for your soul by chaos shuffling infernal pact away in addition the wealth gained from that feat is most likely stolen so you have the owner after you as well. The DM can have fun with that which could be good for RP but bad for your health.

Using AEG's Magic handbook, having an AEG witch make the item can be technically free with the mage hunter feat(since they can theoretically cast every spell at caster level 1 mage hunter makes in -3). You may have to pay for some castings of Guidance of the Avatar, but that is still pushing your cheese.

If you get a regular wizard with sanctum spell and mage hunter to do it: 8,640 gold for a 1/week chaos shuffle command word item. Using a sorcerer with Spell and Magic's Blood Power, Sanctum and Mage Hunter can get the 1/week to you for 1,440 gold or 1/day for 10,080.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I wonder, with sufficient low-level dips, what is the absolute highest number of feats possible?

An Elf Fighter 2/Monk 2/Ranger 1/Wizard 1/Beat Totem Barbarian 3/Feat Rogue 2/Cleric 1/Swashbuckler 1/Wu Jen 1/Psion 1/Psychic Warrior 2/Soulknife 1/Marshal 1/Stalwart Sorcerer 1 gets you 23 feats from your class levels, plus 4 from being an elf, plus the normal 7, plus 11 from VoP, for a total of 45 feats.

You can definitely go higher, though, even sans shenanigans. I'm not touching the neverending pit that is PrCs.


If third party is available.

Third-party is never available in these kinds of discussion, because third-party stuff is ridiculous. I think the one I always remember the most is the PrC that lets you cast Gate at level 11, with no trickery involved.

[Ruethgar]

An Elf Fighter 2/Monk 2/Ranger 1/Wizard 1/Beat Totem Barbarian 3/Feat Rogue 2/Cleric 1/Swashbuckler 1/Wu Jen 1/Psion 1/Psychic Warrior 2/Soulknife 1/Marshal 1/Stalwart Sorcerer 1 gets you 23 feats from your class levels, plus 4 from being an elf, plus the normal 7, plus 11 from VoP, for a total of 45 feats.

Is this including taking the Metal Domain twice?

[Amphetryon]

Third-party is never available in these kinds of discussion, because third-party stuff is ridiculous. I think the one I always remember the most is the PrC that lets you cast Gate at level 11, with no trickery involved.

The one I tend to remember most is the one that makes the diameter of the AoE for spells like Fireball into "1 mile." This makes sense, because casters need the help in dealing with crowds, and such large battlefields are commonplace.


On topic, the thing folks have been dancing around regarding Feats is that there's a certain point of diminishing returns. You'll only have so many weapons/spells/actions to use, meaning sooner or later you'll either be looking a Feats you'll almost never actually use in combat, or filling your sheet with generic "+2/+2" Skill boost Feats. This assumes, of course, that you're not allowed access to the wide swath of 3rd party Feats out there.

[Segev]

Well... depending what you're doing, there's ALWAYS a feat out there that can add to it. It might require "Dead" feats to get there, though, which is diminishing returns. But it's still a usable return.

[ramrod]

Ok very good. Lots of feats. Can you make a useful character out of all of that and what would it look like? :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[GameSpawn]

On topic, the thing folks have been dancing around regarding Feats is that there's a certain point of diminishing returns. You'll only have so many weapons/spells/actions to use, meaning sooner or later you'll either be looking a Feats you'll almost never actually use in combat, or filling your sheet with generic "+2/+2" Skill boost Feats. This assumes, of course, that you're not allowed access to the wide swath of 3rd party Feats out there.

The exalted feats are actually fairly nice for this, since a lot of them offer nice save bonuses against specific conditions (Vows of Abstinence, Chastity, Obedience, and Purity; Lliira's Blessing). Other than that, Quell the Profane is nice, though the BAB requirements a bit high. Touch of Golden Ice could come in handy too. Nimbus of Light makes up for your lack of torches.

[Mr.Bookworm]

The one I tend to remember most is the one that makes the diameter of the AoE for spells like Fireball into "1 mile." This makes sense, because casters need the help in dealing with crowds, and such large battlefields are commonplace.


Hah. Where was that from?


Is this including taking the Metal Domain twice?

Forgot about that domain. You can't take it twice, but that's another feat on the pile.

I also forgot about the Monk getting Improved Unarmed Strike, so that's a total of 47 feats.


Ok very good. Lots of feats. Can you make a useful character out of all of that and what would it look like? :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

In a word, no, unless you use the Dark Chaos Shuffle, and even then you're working uphill. Your chassis isn't actually that bad; your BAB averages out to roughly 3/4 (assuming fractional, it'll suck if you have to play it straight), your saves are amazing (+18/+12/+15 before adding anything else), and your HP is decent.

It's just that your feats are terrible. You have a lot of them, but they're just hanging there like a dead fish; they don't actually work together or make you that much stronger, and your broad sampling of class features is definitely not going to be able to help you that much.

You have four preset MWPs from elf, 4 fighter bonus feats, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes/Deflect Arrows, Track, Scribe Scroll, Toughness, Improved Grapple, Great Fortitude, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (a hammer of some kind), Weapon Focus (same hammer), another feat you can get from a domain, Weapon Finesse, any metamagic feat, a psion bonus feat, 2 psychic warrior bonus feats, Weapon Focus (Mindblade), Wild Talent, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), a free MWP, a Weapon Focus with that same MWP, your 7 free feats, and 11 Exalted feats.

Kind of a crappy grab-bag, neh?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Kind of a crappy grab-bag, neh?

Well... uuuh... you're still better off than a pure monk?:smallbiggrin:

[Ruethgar]

Chaos Shuffle: Practiced Spellcaster in Sorcerer, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Heighten Spell, Sanctum Spell, Extra Slot, Extra Slot and then keep re-writing the lower level Extra Slot into a new Extra Slot until 18th spell level. Quicken, Still, Silent, Innate Spell(Complete Arcane) for a 9th level spell at will 1/round. Only burns 11 of your feats and you are set up to get more at will for 2 feats per spell.

Edit: You need to be able to increase the spell level beyond 11th to get Extra Slot to 18th. I'm sure you could think of something with 36 feats to spare.

And what prevents you from taking a domain twice?

[Flickerdart]

If your bonus feats aren't off a list, then stacking up some heritage feats actually works pretty well. Abyssal Heritor ones are decent, so if you don't like Shuffling you can just Embrace one way.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Kind of a crappy grab-bag, neh?

I made one of these fighters once (I went with human). He ended up making a surprisingly good tank/tie-up fighter. I had such a massive charisma, though, that I splashed paladin. I think I ended up with +18 or higher on all my saves It was awesome (I called him the Feater... Please don't kill me).

[Rubik]

1.) Go read the various armor proficiency, shield proficiency, and tower shield proficiency feats in their entirety.

2.) Multiclass accordingly.

3.) DCFS.

4.) Laugh.

[Amphetryon]

Hah. Where was that from? I want to say the 1-mile spell size was the capstone of a Feat chain in a Green Ronin book, but I'm a bit hazy; it may have been in an "Ultimate Arcanist/Wizard/Sorcerer" supplement, one of those with the faux leather covers.

Sorry, I'm now something like 1300 miles away from the owner of the source-book in which it was found.

[IronFist]

I think this is relevant. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866566/The_True_Dilettante_-_New_Feat_Record_-_504_feats)