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Philemonite
2013-08-02, 10:30 AM
So, we all know the Big 4 from 4E:Striker, Defender, Leader and Controller.

We also know Big 4 from MMOs:DPS, Tank, Healer and Crowd Control.

But, looking past that, what other roles can we see?

I wanna make two lists, one with simple split of combat roles, probably similar to Big 4, but with at least some variations. And another, much more complexed, with lots and lots of sub-roles. What I need is example of this split, either from an existing game, or something you just made up.

So, the question is, what is your preferred split of combat roles?

Knaight
2013-08-02, 12:59 PM
So, the question is, what is your preferred split of combat roles?

Generally speaking, I'm not huge on a split of combat roles built into the characters, but there are certainly specialties that come up. Examples:
Archer: Good for killing things which are far away.
Skirmisher: Good for softening up things from a moderate distance.
Infantry: Good for fighting in close combat.

These three pretty much cover things, but they can be further differentiated with another axis, regarding what size groups people specialize fighting in.

Philemonite
2013-08-02, 01:21 PM
Generally speaking, I'm not huge on a split of combat roles built into the characters, but there are certainly specialties that come up. Examples:
Archer: Good for killing things which are far away.
Skirmisher: Good for softening up things from a moderate distance.
Infantry: Good for fighting in close combat.

These three pretty much cover things, but they can be further differentiated with another axis, regarding what size groups people specialize fighting in.

That reminds me of Cavalry/Infantry/Artillery split. This split is for range what Tank/DPS/Healer is for HP.

Vitruviansquid
2013-08-02, 01:56 PM
I don't know about my preferred split of roles, but here's a few that come off the top of my head as possible, some of which are just terrible, some of which are merely terrible to play in an RPG, but included for completion's sake:

1. Does nothing
2. Does everything

Type 1 in this set-up usually has something to offer besides in-game power, or type 2 usually has a limitation besides in-game power.

1. Tank/controller - controls the pace of the fight, often by forcing the enemy to attack him.
2. Bruiser/duelist - Has a good combination of offense and defense to be able to win most 1v1 fights, but has little utility for group battles.
3. DPS - Does the most damage in a fight, but has the least survivability. Generally tries to stay out of trouble and attack from where they can't be hit back.
4. Support - Provides utility for the team.
5. Nuker - Does the most burst damage, but sometimes lacking in damage over time, the Nuker tries to take out an enemy with low defense off the bat, and then hopefully survives until the next time he is able to burst another enemy to death.

I attempted to boil down the roles in most MOBAs to just 5 here.

1. Rock
2. Paper
3. Scissors

This setup is used for most RTS's, with the caveat that it is rarely as simple as just 3 unit types, but each unit has at least one thing they beat and one thing they lose to.

1. Tank - takes and often dishes out the most damage, but with the least maneuverability and/or utility. The tank dictates where the frontline of a battle is.
2. Support - Increases efficiency of other members of the team by increasing their attack, defense, mobility, or giving them other tricks
3. Area Denial - Area Denial characters are specialized at attacking a spot on the ground rather than individual people. On defense, they block routes for enemies to take while on offense, they act as artillery to clear routes for teammates to take.
4. Direct attack - Having a good mix of maneuverability and directed firepower, direct attack types are the ones to exploit a breach once it is made by the tank or area denial types, generally by piling in quick and killing a whole bunch of people.

This setup is the rough way in which I see Team Fortress 2 and some other class-based shooters set up (though the types they give are offense, defense, and support). I believe this type of role setup should be usable in any game that plays with differences in speed and ways of movement, while being bad in games that abstract movement, like RPG's without a board.

1. Good in forest
2. Good in hills
3. Good on roads
4. Good on whatever other terrain type

This setup is generally used for turn based strategy games, like Battle for Wesnoth or Fantasy Wars. Like the example from RTS's, this setup doesn't quite give the whole picture, as there is often also something else at work between the unit types, like a rock-paper-scissors system or differences between mobility or attack/defense stats.

The Rose Dragon
2013-08-02, 02:05 PM
Final Fantasy XIII's Paradigm System comes to mind:

1) Commando: deals damage. Deals a lot of damage. Has a few skills that make it easier to deal damage, and keep continuing to deal damage.
2) Ravager: softens enemies for commandos, and acts as secondary damage dealer. Targets enemy weaknesses.
3) Sentinel: acts as damage sponge and keeps enemies from targeting others.
4) Synergist: buffs allies, dispels debuffs, and makes it easier for medics to heal.
5) Saboteur: debuffs enemies, dispels buffs and acts as tertiary damage dealer.
6) Medic: heals allies, dispels debuffs and raises fallen allies.

Philemonite
2013-08-02, 02:42 PM
I don't know about my preferred split of roles, but here's a few that come off the top of my head as possible, some of which are just terrible, some of which are merely terrible to play in an RPG, but included for completion's sake:

1. Does nothing
2. Does everything

Type 1 in this set-up usually has something to offer besides in-game power, or type 2 usually has a limitation besides in-game power.

Main idea is balance, so we will skip this one.:smallwink:



1. Tank/controller - controls the pace of the fight, often by forcing the enemy to attack him.
2. Bruiser/duelist - Has a good combination of offense and defense to be able to win most 1v1 fights, but has little utility for group battles.
3. DPS - Does the most damage in a fight, but has the least survivability. Generally tries to stay out of trouble and attack from where they can't be hit back.
4. Support - Provides utility for the team.
5. Nuker - Does the most burst damage, but sometimes lacking in damage over time, the Nuker tries to take out an enemy with low defense off the bat, and then hopefully survives until the next time he is able to burst another enemy to death.

I attempted to boil down the roles in most MOBAs to just 5 here.

I like the idea of a duelist, it adds a new layer to strategy.



1. Rock
2. Paper
3. Scissors

This setup is used for most RTS's, with the caveat that it is rarely as simple as just 3 unit types, but each unit has at least one thing they beat and one thing they lose to.

Rock/Paper/Scissors is a basis for most combat systems. Sometimes it's just elemental, but sometimes it affects the combat roles.



1. Tank - takes and often dishes out the most damage, but with the least maneuverability and/or utility. The tank dictates where the frontline of a battle is.
2. Support - Increases efficiency of other members of the team by increasing their attack, defense, mobility, or giving them other tricks
3. Area Denial - Area Denial characters are specialized at attacking a spot on the ground rather than individual people. On defense, they block routes for enemies to take while on offense, they act as artillery to clear routes for teammates to take.
4. Direct attack - Having a good mix of maneuverability and directed firepower, direct attack types are the ones to exploit a breach once it is made by the tank or area denial types, generally by piling in quick and killing a whole bunch of people.

This setup is the rough way in which I see Team Fortress 2 and some other class-based shooters set up (though the types they give are offense, defense, and support). I believe this type of role setup should be usable in any game that plays with differences in speed and ways of movement, while being bad in games that abstract movement, like RPG's without a board.

I never played Team Fortress, but this looks like 4E roles with a modified Controller role.



1. Good in forest
2. Good in hills
3. Good on roads
4. Good on whatever other terrain type

This setup is generally used for turn based strategy games, like Battle for Wesnoth or Fantasy Wars. Like the example from RTS's, this setup doesn't quite give the whole picture, as there is often also something else at work between the unit types, like a rock-paper-scissors system or differences between mobility or attack/defense stats.

This can actually be added to most systems, to give another layer of strategy.


Final Fantasy XIII's Paradigm System comes to mind:

1) Commando: deals damage. Deals a lot of damage. Has a few skills that make it easier to deal damage, and keep continuing to deal damage.
2) Ravager: softens enemies for commandos, and acts as secondary damage dealer. Targets enemy weaknesses.
3) Sentinel: acts as damage sponge and keeps enemies from targeting others.
4) Synergist: buffs allies, dispels debuffs, and makes it easier for medics to heal.
5) Saboteur: debuffs enemies, dispels buffs and acts as tertiary damage dealer.
6) Medic: heals allies, dispels debuffs and raises fallen allies.

I never played FFXIII but I always liked how roles were divided.

Waar
2013-08-02, 03:21 PM
2 main groups:
Offence (kills enemies) and Defence (stops enemies from killing you)

There are also several ways this can be done:
1. Support (enhance your allies)
2. Sustainability (do your thing, all day every day)
3. Burst (Powerfull but can't be used that often)
4. Area effects (hinder/hurt your enemies)

Now just find a mix you like :smallwink:

Philemonite
2013-08-02, 03:37 PM
2 main groups:
Offence (kills enemies) and Defence (stops enemies from killing you)

There are also several ways this can be done:
1. Support (enhance your allies)
2. Sustainability (do your thing, all day every day)
3. Burst (Powerfull but can't be used that often)
4. Area effects (hinder/hurt your enemies)

Now just find a mix you like :smallwink:

I had a similar idea once, splitting all abilities in two groups: damage dealing and primary abilities.
Primary abilities were divided in Guard(Defender), Support(Leader) and Control(Controller).
I so need to run a 4E gestalt game where everyone is a Striker.:smallwink:

SowZ
2013-08-02, 07:50 PM
DPS:
Ranged Damage
Melee Damage
Damage Over Time

Tanks:
Invincibility
Aggro (Grabbing enemies)
Protection

Leader:
Healing
Buffing
Positioning

Crowd Control:
AOE Damage
Moving enemies/terrain
Debuffing




Something like that?

Jay R
2013-08-02, 09:10 PM
Shields: Their purpose is to control the enemy, keeping them where we want them - at a choke point if we're outnumbers, in a kill pocket after the choke point if we outnumber them.

Artillery / missiles: People who can deal damage on folks who are being held at the right place by the shield wall. This includes archers, but also a fair amount of magic. In a recent game, we were facing ten enemies with more hit points than we had, and our wizard was out of spells above 2nd level. Our shield wall contained them, while the wizard ran a flaming sphere up and down their line. The spell did most of the damage, but only because the shield wall held.

Air support: flying wizards casting Walls or other mass effect spells.

erikun
2013-08-02, 10:20 PM
Right off hand, my thoughts go to three groups.

One is the "Tank", or the ones that make themselves a target and keep enemies from attacking other characters. This can be the actual physical tank, in the form of heavy armor and swinging swords in something's face, or it could be the Shadowrun street samurai, running in with heavy machine guns and armor and attracting attention. However they do it, the point is to attract the enemies' attention and survive it.

Another is the "Artillery" or "Calvary" character, as someone who generally requires some setup but can deal large amounts of damage or suppression fire. They are weaker in direct offense and defense, but are highly effective at eliminating a target under the right conditions. Your average D&D mage is like this; squishy with terrible weapons, but can destroy groups with a well-placed fireball. I've included calvary because they are generally the same idea but with mobility rather than range - a knight on a charging horse can destroy most targets with a lance, but its effectiveness is greatly reduced if needing to get into melee.

The last is the "Sniper" type character. By that, I mean someone who can go after and eliminate individual targets a lot easier than other characters. The archer ranger or the person with the modern sniper rifle comes to mind, but a sneaky rogue with a damanging backstab or (to use another Shadowrun example) a techer with a stealth but dangerous droid would fit as well. The idea is a character who can, if not kill, then at least pose a major threat to specific targets - generally your artillery characters.


Beyond that, I'm not counting healers or buffers among those ranks. Typically, you'll either find that they do their healing/buffing out of combat, and so fill a different role, or they do so in combat and don't really fill any role. (Or, sometimes, they heal out of combat just add another body with no role in combat.) Your D&D cleric is typically a sort of Tank, in a way - heavy armor and high HP give it survivability, while their healing tends to make them a target to focus on.


I like the idea of a duelist, it adds a new layer to strategy.
I'd call a duelist one of the Snipers in my above categories. They are someone who will be very dangerous if they get close to a target, but they really can't take the beating or the attention if a lot of opponents focus on them. They could be focused towards attacking the Tank-characters (rather than thieves, who like using stealth to go after Sniper-characters) but they're definitely most noteworthy at eliminating a target.

lsfreak
2013-08-03, 05:08 AM
One division of damage I've seen could be seen as:
Spiker - single-target, huge damage in short time. May require special setup to pull off, easy to interrupt the setup, or especially glass-cannony.
Nuker - weakish single-target, veeeery strong AoE compared to others.
Drainer - DoTs and lots of them, seems to often go hand-in-hand with toughness (leeching effects, tankiness or high evasion, kiting, difficulty in interrupting). Due to the problems with having to roll a bunch of different abilities in order to be effective, combined with lots of weak targets dying so fast they never have a chance to ramp up, they often seem to cross over into Nuker territory due to abilities that spread their DoTs to multiple targets; alternatively, if they only have 2 main DoT's, they may be an effective nuker simply by rolling them on multiple enemies.

Analogously in healing, you've got:
"Tank healer" - huge single-target heals, though these may be either direct or HoT-type heals, depending on how the rest of the system is set up
"Group healer" - strong AoE heals, which could be lots of easy, fast single-target HoTs or direct heals, or heavy-hitting AoE heals, again depending on other things
"Leech healer" - Between full healer and full DPS, and can generally do most of both at the same time. I take it to be analogous to the Drainer due to Drainers often having leeches, and Leechers often having DoTs.

And more stretched, you may have a three-part split between Boss Tanking, AoE Tanking, and Switch-Tanking (offtank + DPS combo).

The Nuker/Striker distinction is something I got from Guild Wars 1, but off the top of my head it can easily be applied along with the Drainer to all the MMO's I've played (though the Nuker usually isn't a unique role but more like a side-strength of a Spiker or Drainer). Leech-healer seems to only be a full-blown role in what I'd call less traditional class systems, and in some it seems to instead actually be the method by which the other healers roles are primarily filled (The Secret World come to mind).

Another split could be between a "controller" and a "support." The "controller" is usually tanky, and the support is squishy, but other than that they often have large overlap in role. I'm thinking of what I remember of WoW 2v2's, where you've got a melee who keeps the most dangerous guy locked down and peels him off the ranged, and the ranged who's either a healer or DPS. However, both have large amounts of CC, debuffing, dispelling, kiting ability, and interruptions, the main difference being that the "controller" will never be a full healer (though they generally have some pretty potent healing abilities), and a healing "support" won't be doing a ton of damage (but they can often burst if they need to).

I'd argue in 3.X, the main (combat) roles are actually split between controller/damage/support. The controller can be a melee trip-monster, a battlefield control wizard, or a beguiler - the important thing is being able to shut down enemies. Damage form the bulk of possible builds. The support is just that, and limited primarily to magic: buff-casters, DFI bards, counterspell wizards, and to limited extent ToB melee. Something to notice is that these roles transcend the stereotypical fighter/thief/wizard/cleric - the big, tough "fighter" may a spiked chain psywarrior (controller), a barbarian archer (damage), or a Song of the White Raven warblade (support); the sneaky "rogue" may be a beguiler (controller), a TWF swift ambusher skirmisher (damage), or a Focalor/Balam/Garyon binder (support); and so on.

Philemonite
2013-08-03, 05:29 AM
Here are a few things that standout so far:

Range-Artillery/Cavalry/Infantry
Artillery are long ranged attackers, Cavalry are fast moving, and Infantry are short range heavy hitters.
Artillery<Cavalry<Infantry<Artillery

Target-Single/Area

Pacing-Tortoise/Normal/Hare
Tortoise needs to build up, and then unleashes a powerful ability, Hare has penalties after using his abilities.

Time-Instant/Over Time
This can even apply for buffs/debuffs, are they limited by duration, or by number of times it can affect the target.(Two spells, one grants defense bonus for x rounds, another grants bonus x times)

BurgerBeast
2015-04-04, 01:40 PM
Here's an experiment I've been working on that's undeveloped:

Five binary axes:

Target (Single/Multiple)
Range (Melee/Ranged)
Consistency (Burst/Sustained)
Role (Offense/Defense)
Directness (Direct/Mitigating)

Choose one from each and you have the basis for a class:

SMBOD: Striker/Lurker (Melee Burst DPS)
MMBOD: Brute (Melee Burst AOE)
MMBDD: Cleric (Melee Burst Heals)
MRSDM: Buffer
MRSDM: Debuffer
SRSOD: Drainer (WOW Warlock)

I've played with the idea of introducing third options into each axis, or adding more axes, or combining axes (direct offense = DPS, mitigating offence = debuffer, direct defense = heals, mitigating defense = buffer). since 2^5 is 32 different archetypes, you could combine two types into one class for less classes and more balance.

Philemonite
2015-04-04, 01:52 PM
That is a very interesting reply to a thread that is almost two years old.:smallwink:
Some combination are weird, like anything that is Melee/Defense. I would rather separate Defense into Self/Ally.

LibraryOgre
2015-04-04, 02:01 PM
The Mod Wonder: Closed for age; restart if you like.