Need help surviving early levels as a wizard

[Reprimand]

I'm in a game where we have to start off at level 1.

I want to play a wizard but I don't want to constantly die with my meager 3 level 1 spells per day.

I'm think about either being a diviner and banning evocation because I have access to Complete Arcane and Spell Compendium. Anyone have tips on being useful without magic missiles or anything that would normally come up damage wise.

I'm thinking ray of clumsiness or enfeeblement already because big monsters lack dex and anything in heavy armor will be severely hindered by str damage. A lot of the really great spells don't come in until later.

Mostly I'm looking at general survival tips more than anything!

EDIT: This is 3.5 by the way sorry for not getting that right off that bat!

[Sarison]

Consider wands and scrolls once you have the gold for them. A wand of color spray or Sleep can go a long way to boost the length of time you are effective.

[Reprimand]

Thing is our introduction to the game was you wait up in a coffin and your missing all your possessions i.e. my spell book I already replaced that though and managed to keep all my spells

So effectively I have no real money other than what's on my book, we get small jobs but most of the thugs in the city are like 2nd - 3rd level you know they've actually survived a few fights.

It's a pretty gritty campaign thus far.

EDIT: I see your point though.

[jedipilot24]

If you have the feats to spare, I suggest the Precious Apprentice/Fiery Burst trick. Precocious Apprentice gives you a 2nd level spell at 1st level and if you make that a fire spell (such as Lesser Orb of Fire), Fiery Burst will let you spam 2d6 fire damage all day long.

[Barsoom]

1. Be a focused specialist. This increases your spells per day by about 25% on low levels. Yes, it narrows your options, but with Spell Compendium in play you still have access to a lot of good stuff.
2. Use Color Spray and Grease a lot. Cloud of Bewilderment, Web and Glitterdust once you get to level 3. Your Mage Armor doesn't last all-day at low levels, you'll have to be judicious when to use it. Maybe get a few scrolls as a backup. Magic Missile and its ilk is useless at low levels, and generally speaking, you have a lot better things to do that deal damage. Let the fighters deal damage, while you control the battlefield with magic.
3. If using point buy, make sure you have as high Int as you can. You need those save DCs to be high. If possible, play an Int-boosting race, like Gray Elf.

[Reprimand]

Precious apprentice would be mostly useless because I can't duplicate most fire spells because their under the evocation school which I banned.

I would be afraid to hit allies with color spray and grease, I choose divination as a focus because the only evocation spells I ever use are contingency and windwall which can be duped with lesser and greater shadow evocation.

Plus I kind of use every other school so i didn't want to ban a second school

The only other school i would think to ban is enchantment because it involves a lot of proper wording that I'm not really good at case and point: suggestion.

[Drake2009]

0- Daze, Prestidigitation, Light, Dancing lights.
1- Grease, True strike, Ray of enfeeblement

True strike on the heavy hitter will help a lot but you can replace it with magic weapon or sleep.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Precious apprentice would be mostly useless because I can't duplicate most fire spells because their under the evocation school which I banned.

I would be afraid to hit allies with color spray and grease, I choose divination as a focus because the only evocation spells I ever use are contingency and windwall which can be duped with lesser and greater shadow evocation.

You just need one. Blades of Fire (CArc) is conjuration, Body of the Sun (CD) and Boiling Blood (CM) are transmutation.

[Barsoom]

Precious apprentice would be mostly useless because I can't duplicate most fire spells because their under the evocation school which I banned.I'm sure you can find a non-Evocation fire spell in Spell Compendium. If not, Precocious Apprentice (Acid Arrow) + Acidic Splatter is almost as good. Spam 2d6 touch attacks at will, be a Warlock in addition to being a Wizard :smallwink:


Plus I kind of use every other school so i didn't want to ban a second schoolThere is a lot of overlap between Enchantment and Illusion. Both schools are basically a bunch of save-or-lose-will-negates. You can ban one without much pain.

[Reprimand]

0- Daze, Prestidigitation, Light, Dancing lights.
1- Grease, True strike, Ray of enfeeblement

True strike on the heavy hitter will help a lot but you can replace it with magic weapon or sleep.

What would be another few good level 1 spells because I have a high int bonus so I can swap them out. I'm also looking for just general tactics. Not just spells. Something that could be encountered in a city preferably.

@Barsoom I can retrain feats but only the level after it was taken. What would be a suitable feat to replace it with?

[Drake2009]

What would be another few good level 1 spells because I have a high int bonus so I can swap them out. I'm also looking for just general tactics. Not just spells. Something that could be encountered in a city preferably.

a few favorites of mine are
Mage armor, animate rope, feather fall, expeditious retreat, enlarge person and Tenser's floating disc. Magic missile is always good though.

Find a bad guy and hes running. Expeditious retreat to get closer and animate rope to tie the guy up. You find yourself in an alleyway with you and the tank. You are surrounded by 4 thugs. Animate rope to make a wall which will hold them for a few rounds. Enlarge person and true strike the tank. You lie down on the floor and cast tensers floating disc above you. The tank then hits the building to have rocks fall everywhere. The thugs are crushed and if any got near you the disc caught them.

[Tvtyrant]

If you specialize in Conjuration instead you can swap your familiar for Abrupt Jaunt, which allows you to teleport a short distance as an immediate action.

[Reprimand]

I was thinking about taking toughness at level 1 and retraining it at level 2 just so I'm not 1 shot by anything and everything.

@tvtyrant I really wanted to keep the familar because it's more useful at higher levels, does my familar still progress when I go into prcs?

[Barsoom]

I was thinking about taking toughness at level 1 and retraining it at level 2 just so I'm not 1 shot by anything and everything.That's not a bad idea. Retrain it into Spell Focus (your school of choice), so you can enter Master Specialist later.


does my familar still progress when I go into prcs?No :smallfrown:

[Psyren]

Illusion and Conjuration are key to an early wizard's survival. Color Spray, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Glitterdust, Fog Cloud, Web - learn them, live them, love them.

Necromancy has some nice tools as well. Ray of Enfeeblement, False Life, and Fear/Scare can keep you alive quite well themselves.

A common mistake low level wizards make is to go immediately for blasting/summoning. Let the fighter kill things, that's his job; control will keep you alive longer and work even better.

[Reprimand]

Illusion and Conjuration are key to an early wizard's survival. Color Spray, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Glitterdust, Fog Cloud, Web - learn them, live them, love them.

Necromancy has some nice tools as well. Ray of Enfeeblement, False Life, and Fear/Scare can keep you alive quite well themselves.

A common mistake low level wizards make is to go immediately for blasting/summoning. Let the fighter kill things, that's his job; control will keep you alive longer and work even better.

I already did away with blasting and banned evocation I already read logic ninja's batman guide I just wanted some more feed back before I make semi-permanent decisions.

As for the spell selections that sounds quite nice :3

I was going to take ray of clumsiness as well for no save dex damage for bigger things which are easier to hit and hard for the meat shields to deal with.

aren't summon monster spells like 1/round per level anyway?

[Grod_The_Giant]

@tvtyrant I really wanted to keep the familar because it's more useful at higher levels, does my familar still progress when I go into prcs?
You can always swap it out for one of the ACFs from the PHB2, and then get it back later by taking the Obtain Familiar feat. As a bonus, the familiar from the feat is keyed off caster level, not wizard level.

[Tvtyrant]

I was thinking about taking toughness at level 1 and retraining it at level 2 just so I'm not 1 shot by anything and everything.

@tvtyrant I really wanted to keep the familar because it's more useful at higher levels, does my familar still progress when I go into prcs?

The Wizard familiar doesn't. That is why you trade it out and then take the Obtain Familiar feat to get a familiar that will progress with your caster level instead of class level in X.

[Reprimand]

That might not be a bad idea. Is there a way I can make a dire tortoise into a familiar? (higher levels obviously) xD

How should I go about getting the pre-reqs for initiate of the seven fold veil asap?

If I can get it pretty fast I might just go for Abjurer.

[eggynack]

0- Daze, Prestidigitation, Light, Dancing lights.
1- Grease, True strike, Ray of enfeeblement

True strike on the heavy hitter will help a lot but you can replace it with magic weapon or sleep.
True strike is personal, with a range of you. In other words, it's not that advisable when you're not rocking a bunch of spells with attack rolls, as well as the high level spell slots to quicken it. I mean, ray of enfeeblement is a ranged touch attack, and that's probably just going to hit, even without true strike.

Anyways, you have three first level slots, so you should pick spells that can take out about three encounters. Instead of true strike or magic weapon, consider something like enlarge person. If you have any kind of melee presence in the party, enlarge will make that presence bigger :smallbiggrin:. I don't think anyone's mentioned silent image yet, so I'm going to mention silent image. It's a spell whose only limitation is your imagination, so if you have a big imagination, silent image can end entire encounters in one shot. It's a bit on the DM dependent side for some campaigns, but a good image can go a long way. Color spray has been mentioned, and for good reason, because it's great. It and sleep are like first level save or die spells, though they're each usable in somewhat different situations. Another spell to consider is wall of smoke. It's a solid fog (not literally) spell, and fogs are great.

Finally, 0th level spells, and other stuff. You're probably going to want some quantity of mage hand and detect magic, along with the already mentioned prestidigitation. It's a classic pile of spells. Abrupt jaunt has been mentioned, but it's worth seconding. It turns the wizard from one of the most fragile first level characters, into one of the least fragile first level characters. It's pretty ridiculous. I don't think anyone's brought it up yet, but have you considered picking up a crossbow? Seriously, the difference between you with a crossbow, and a fighter with a crossbow is marginal. It's not the best thing you can do, but it might be the best thing you can do if you don't have spells. Also, you mentioned Logicninja's guide, so I was wondering if you've read Treantmonk's guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0). I generally prefer it, especially due to the fleshed out spell section. It's definitely worth looking into.

[Reprimand]

Hm, thanks for the input I'm already very good with illusions as it is. I once played a nightmare spinner to great effect.

TreantMonk's guides are usually really good so I'll check it out.

Thanks.

[Drake2009]

True strike is personal, with a range of you. In other words, it's not that advisable when you're not rocking a bunch of spells with attack rolls, as well as the high level spell slots to quicken it. I mean, ray of enfeeblement is a ranged touch attack, and that's probably just going to hit, even without true strike.

Anyways, you have three first level slots, so you should pick spells that can take out about three encounters. Instead of true strike or magic weapon, consider something like enlarge person. If you have any kind of melee presence in the party, enlarge will make that presence bigger :smallbiggrin:. I don't think anyone's mentioned silent image yet, so I'm going to mention silent image. It's a spell whose only limitation is your imagination, so if you have a big imagination, silent image can end entire encounters in one shot. It's a bit on the DM dependent side for some campaigns, but a good image can go a long way. Color spray has been mentioned, and for good reason, because it's great. It and sleep are like first level save or die spells, though they're each usable in somewhat different situations. Another spell to consider is wall of smoke. It's a solid fog (not literally) spell, and fogs are great.

Finally, 0th level spells, and other stuff. You're probably going to want some quantity of mage hand and detect magic, along with the already mentioned prestidigitation. It's a classic pile of spells. Abrupt jaunt has been mentioned, but it's worth seconding. It turns the wizard from one of the most fragile first level characters, into one of the least fragile first level characters. It's pretty ridiculous. I don't think anyone's brought it up yet, but have you considered picking up a crossbow? Seriously, the difference between you with a crossbow, and a fighter with a crossbow is marginal. It's not the best thing you can do, but it might be the best thing you can do if you don't have spells. Also, you mentioned Logicninja's guide, so I was wondering if you've read Treantmonk's guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0). I generally prefer it, especially due to the fleshed out spell section. It's definitely worth looking into.

Dang didnt see that!

[Psyren]

aren't summon monster spells like 1/round per level anyway?

Yes, making them all but useless until level 5 or so, but some people pick them up anyway; they hear how powerful summoning is and make a beeline for it without thinking about the low durations and long casting time.

Part of the problem is 3.0 - summons were hours/level there, making them the best choices for any caster who had them to prepare.

[Reprimand]

Yes, making them all but useless until level 5 or so, but some people pick them up anyway; they hear how powerful summoning is and make a beeline for it without thinking about the low durations and long casting time.

Part of the problem is 3.0 - summons were hours/level there, making them the best choices for any caster who had them to prepare.

Ah, that would be a big difference going from 3.0 to 3.5

I played pathfinder before 3.5 my friend got to try it over pathfinder and I'll say this: there is a huge difference is power levels between classes.

[Urpriest]

I would be afraid to hit allies with color spray and grease

That shouldn't be a problem. You don't have a lot of spells per day. Color Spray and Grease are the sort you cast once, on the first round. If you don't get a good initiative, have your allies delay or ready actions rather than charging in the first round. Once they see you shut down multiple thugs with one spell they'll appreciate your advice.

[Sarison]

Thinking a little more outside the box: cities have people in them, people have skills, use them. Meet adventurers who need cohorts, they get paid, right? (Is there a reverse leadership feat?) Being a wizard makes a lot of difficult stuff easy, do odd jobs for people they can't do for themselves. Unscrupulous businesses could profit from a little market manipulation, go halves on the profit with someone. Charm Person to convince people to loan or rent you stuff up front, then pay them back after (Think of it like an investment). Start (or find) prize fighting, enter your fighter and help him chea- I mean win. For extra safety, but less money, talk to the organizers and split the profit.

[Reprimand]

The problem with the reverse leadership idea is that the DM reduces xp gained when we use higher level npcs to help us we're talking like 1/4 maybe less of the normal npc because he wants there to be real risk in taking these jobs, which I can understand to a point.

It's sort of a gritty horror campaign.

Also, I'm working with a 15 point buy, but every level we get a stat point so it ends up being more than a 30 point buy by the end game. So we get more and more badass as we survive each challenge.

right now I'm 15 (16 +1 from the point at level 1) int, 14 con, 9 dex, 8 str, 8 cha, 8 wis

The other hitch is that you can't put a point into the stat you put a point into last level. so that's a max of +10 to any one stat.

level 2 I'm raising my dex to 10

[Psyren]

That shouldn't be a problem. You don't have a lot of spells per day. Color Spray and Grease are the sort you cast once, on the first round. If you don't get a good initiative, have your allies delay or ready actions rather than charging in the first round. Once they see you shut down multiple thugs with one spell they'll appreciate your advice.

In addition to this, encourage your DM (if he's not doing so already) to use grids or battlemaps. Even some graph paper can help a lot, because casters need to be very spatially aware to properly place their effects. It's generally easy to aim a cone or burst such that it hits the enemies and not your team, and color spray is only a 15'.



I played pathfinder before 3.5 my friend got to try it over pathfinder and I'll say this: there is a huge difference is power levels between classes.

That's true for both of them, though I prefer low level play in PF - more feats, few to no dead levels, the spells are still useful without being auto-wins, infinite cantrips, bloodline/school/domain powers etc.

The increased difficulty to cast in melee is also a factor, forcing the casters to rely on the melee more than in 3.5. The loss of Concentration is bad enough, but a single melee with the Step Up feat can ruin a spellcaster's day if he has no support.

[Agincourt]

Part of the problem is 3.0 - summons were hours/level there, making them the best choices for any caster who had them to prepare.

I'm trying to figure out what spell you are referring to because Summon Monster I-IX and Summon Nature's Ally I-IX were rounds/level in 3.0.

[Gavinfoxx]

I wrote up a character that is designed for a super-low-wealth game...

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=512122

It only works if you start at ecl 2, though... it's an elven generalist wizard

[Psyren]

I'm trying to figure out what spell you are referring to because Summon Monster I-IX and Summon Nature's Ally I-IX were rounds/level in 3.0.

Were they? Maybe it was just NWN then.

[Segev]

Ah. NWN seems, from all I've heard about it, to be a TERRIBLE reference for figuring out what the rules in actual 3e D&D are.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ah. NWN seems, from all I've heard about it, to be a TERRIBLE reference for figuring out what the rules in actual 3e D&D are.

Temple of Elemental Evil, with the Circle of Eight fanmods, is okay though!

[Incanur]

Cloudy Conjuration on a focused specialist conjurer with abrupt jaunt ACF strikes me as one of the best survival options for low levels. Remember that triggers on cantrips too. That feat provides so much utility.

[Reprimand]

I'm trying to figure out what spell you are referring to because Summon Monster I-IX and Summon Nature's Ally I-IX were rounds/level in 3.0.

I appreciate that you're trying to make a point but please don't derail the thread. If you have something on the subject of surviving as a level 1 wizard I would be more than happy to hear your input.

Edit: Ninja'd sort of?

I'm trying to stay away from feats that are too specific, I'm not going to be able to use or prepare a cloud spell every time.

[Tvtyrant]

A slightly later option would be to pump Use Magic Device and get a wand of Wings of Cover (sorc only spell.) This automatically blocks one targeted spell/attack as an immediate action, which combined with Abrupt Jaunt gives you tons of defensive options. Melee guy chargers: Wings of Cover. Targeted spell: Wings of Cover. Area of Effect spell: Jaunt out of the area.

If you later prestige into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil you become almost indestructible.

[Reprimand]

What book is that from? Spell Comp? That actually sounds really funny.

[eggynack]

I'm trying to stay away from feats that are too specific, I'm not going to be able to use or prepare a cloud spell every time.
It's really not all that specific. Cloudy conjuration triggers off of every conjuration spell you cast, and everything somehow falls under conjuration. There are very few situations where a conjuration wouldn't be useful, and you're going to have at least one of every level as a conjurer. A tiny sickening fog cloud isn't the greatest effect in the world, but it just gives your spells that extra foomf. It's not like there's a surplus of great feats to take as a first level wizard, and it's a far better option than toughness.

[eggynack]

What book is that from? Spell Comp? That actually sounds really funny.
Wings of cover? Races of the Dragon.

[Reprimand]

It's really not all that specific. Cloudy conjuration triggers off of every conjuration spell you cast, and everything somehow falls under conjuration. There are very few situations where a conjuration wouldn't be useful, and you're going to have at least one of every level as a conjurer. A tiny sickening fog cloud isn't the greatest effect in the world, but it just gives your spells that extra foomf. It's not like there's a surplus of great feats to take as a first level wizard, and it's a far better option than toughness.

Right but it's a port city and I'm carrying around magical stuff, if someone mugs me I need to be able to survive a single shank with a dagger.

Also at the time I thought it only applied to cloud/mist spells. What exactly does it do? or what book is it in?

Also wings of cover sounds hilarious.

[eggynack]

Right but it's a port city and I'm carrying around magical stuff, if someone mugs me I need to be able to survive a single shank with a dagger.

Also at the time I thought it only applied to cloud/mist spells. What exactly does it do? or what book is it in?
Cloudy conjuration applies to all conjurations all the time. The cloudy part comes from the fact that it gives you a cloud on all of your conjurations. It's in Complete Mage. Honestly, toughness isn't going to get you that much closer to not dying on a shank, and you can always hang out near the middle of the party to avoid a shanking. It's just not good. If I'm putting up some kind of defense, it's going to be an abrupt jaunt based one, even if it doesn't work when flat footed. It just works on a more consistent basis.

[Incanur]

Cloudy Conjuration (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-mage--58/cloudy-conjuration--368/).

You get total concealment and/or an effective +2 to spell DC each time you cast a conjuration spell.

If I wanted to play a super survivable wizard at starting level 1, I'd go strongheart halfling focused specialist conjurer with abrupt jaunt and Cloudy Conjuration. That or a gnome focused specialist illusionist and go nuts with color spray.

[eggynack]

You get total concealment and/or an effective +2 to spell DC each time you cast a conjuration spell.
The link is accurate, but the description seems inaccurate. The +2 to spell DC isn't a component of the feat at all, and the cloud itself neither only, nor necessarily, grants you total concealment. If you place yourself at the center of the fog cloud, it looks like you'd always be five feet from the edge, and would thus only have concealment. You can also place the cloud adjacent to you, on the spell's target, or adjacent to the spell's target, which give varying amounts of concealment in varying situations. There's also the sickening effect to consider, which is pretty nice.

[Reprimand]

Okay that's not a bad idea then. But I have a question what exactly do I get out a being a specialist over a generalist other than banned schools if you could summarize it?

I like Abrupt jaunt but not so much that I'd go into being a conjurer blind.

I was originally going to be a diviner because I'd only have to give up one school but now I'm not so sure.

[Psyren]

Okay that's not a bad idea then. But I have a question what exactly do I get out a being a specialist over a generalist other than banned schools if you could summarize it?

Specialists get an extra slot/day of each spell level that can only be filled with their chosen school. Spells/day are your lifeblood, hence being a specialist is worth the sacrifice 90% of the time.

[Reprimand]

Specialists get an extra slot/day of each spell level that can only be filled with their chosen school. Spells/day are your lifeblood, hence being a specialist is worth the sacrifice 90% of the time.

So what first level conjuration spells would make it worth giving up two schools that I can prepare on a daily basis ( I can retrain class features everytime I level up so I'm not worried about having to keep it )

[Incanur]

If you put the cloud on your target, they save at -2 because they're sickened. That's an effective +2 DC for the spell. The cloud won't necessarily give you total concealment, but if you put it in front of you by centering it on the far intersection of an adjacent square, that's two squares of fog. That's total concealment from at least one opponent of your choice. You can also get total concealment versus you target by placing the cloud in their space.

[eggynack]

Okay that's not a bad idea then. But I have a question what exactly do I get out a being a specialist over a generalist other than banned schools if you could summarize it?

I like Abrupt jaunt but not so much that I'd go into being a conjurer blind.

I was originally going to be a diviner because I'd only have to give up one school but now I'm not so sure.
As Psyren notes, just the bonus spells, and a couple of side benefits like ACF's and feats. Being a conjurer is about the best thing you can be, because conjuration spells are amazing. The other two options are transmutation and divination, though conjuration is probably the best at early levels where you seek value. The other two schools pick up more later on. Another option is going domain wizard with elven generalist, which can be pretty nice.

[eggynack]

If you put the cloud on your target, they save at -2 because they're sickened. That's an effective +2 DC for the spell. The cloud won't necessarily give you total concealment, but if you put it in front of you by centering it on the far intersection of an adjacent square, that's two squares of fog. That's total concealment from at least one opponent of your choice. You can also get total concealment versus you target by placing the cloud in their space.
I suppose that makes it a slightly more accurate description, but it leaves out a lot of possibilities. For example, you could place the cloud directly over yourself, and get regular concealment against everyone, rather than total concealment on one side. Moreover, you don't get a +2 DC on the conjuration because, "The cloud appears in conjunction with the spell taking effect (not before or after)." So, y'know, it mostly just does exactly what the feat says, in every possible permutation. You miss out on a lot of the nuances by simplifying the effects so much.

[Reprimand]

So grease is really the best option I have for my bonus spells the other things I can think of are mount and mage armor which does seem too bad. what are some other conjuration spells worth getting at low levels that would synergize with the mini cloud and abrupt jaunt?

[eggynack]

So grease is really the best option I have for my bonus spells the other things I can think of are mount and mage armor which does seem too bad.
Probably, yeah. Other options include wall of smoke, and benign transpostion, which are both from the SpC. Resinous tar from CM also seems interesting, though likely worse than grease for the most part.

[Segev]

I don't know that you'd want to center the cloud on yourself. It says in the feat that creatures you summon are immune to the sickening effect, but it never says that you are, unless I missed it in there somewhere.

[eggynack]

I don't know that you'd want to center the cloud on yourself. It says in the feat that creatures you summon are immune to the sickening effect, but it never says that you are, unless I missed it in there somewhere.
True enough. Still, sickened isn't the worst thing to be, and sometimes you just want to surround yourself in a concealing fog. Either way, if you're getting total concealment from one guy, you're almost certainly open to attack from a different direction, which can be problematic. It's a complicated little feat, just like all fogs are.

[Incanur]

As the cloud appears "in conjunction with the spell taking effect," I don't see any conclusion other than that they're sickened as the spell is taking effect, i.e. when they save.

Anyway, one funny option for low-level play is enchanter with Metamagic School Focus and Rapid Spell. Casting sleep as a standard action three times a day at level 1 is awesome.

[eggynack]

As the cloud appears "in conjunction with the spell taking effect," I don't see any conclusion other than that they're sickened as the spell is taking effect, i.e. when they save.
The two effects occur simultaneously, so there's no real time for the opponent to be sickened and also make the save.

[Barsoom]

So what first level conjuration spells would make it worth giving up two schools that I can prepare on a daily basis ( I can retrain class features everytime I level up so I'm not worried about having to keep it )

An extra Grease or Wall of Smoke can both ruin someone's day quite nicely. On slightly higher levels, Web, Glitterdust, Black Tentacles are encounter-winners.

[Incanur]

The two effects occur simultaneously, so there's no real time for the opponent to be sickened and also make the save.

The fact that they happen simultaneously mean the target is necessarily sickened when they save. I do think that makes the feat too powerful, and would likely rule the other way if DMing, but logically I can't see another way to read the text. If the spell and the sickening happen at the same time, then they're sickened when they save.

[jedipilot24]

Precious apprentice would be mostly useless because I can't duplicate most fire spells because their under the evocation school which I banned.

Lesser Orb of Fire is a Conjuration.

[JusticeZero]

I would be afraid to hit allies with color spray and greaseThat's a problem with the rest of your party, not you. Give them two warnings, then start lobbing fireballs into their backs to hit the enemies as needed - they obviously have no objection to it, since you have given ample warning.

[Incanur]

Also remember that you can trade Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative via the Unearthed Arcana ACF that repleaces SS and wizard bonus feats with fighter bonus feats. +4 initiative is nice, especially at level 1.

[Reprimand]

Not a fan of fighter bonus feats on wizards.

Offhand what is the minimum level I can qualify for IotSV?

[eggynack]

Offhand what is the minimum level I can qualify for IotSV?
Looks like you have to be wizard(ish) 9/ Initiate x. The skill ranks are the only real factor stopping you from entering before that point, and they're one of the hardest requirements in the game to bypass.

[Reprimand]

Looks like you have to be wizard(ish) 9/ Initiate x. The skill ranks are the only real factor stopping you from entering before that point, and they're one of the hardest requirements in the game to bypass.

I was actually thinking wizard 5 incantrix 3 IotSV 7 Arch-Mage 5

[Agincourt]

If you do go into Incantatrix, it does involve banning a school of magic. I don't see that you definitively said that you were going to be a conjurer specialist, but you could end up with 3 schools being banned.

[Psyren]

So grease is really the best option I have for my bonus spells the other things I can think of are mount and mage armor which does seem too bad. what are some other conjuration spells worth getting at low levels that would synergize with the mini cloud and abrupt jaunt?

In core, obscuring mist is fantastic. It basically prevents enemy spellcasters from targeting you at all and protects you from archers as well. Against melee it acts like blur, but a level lower. Finally, it lasts the entire fight even at first level.

[Reprimand]

Wait couldn't I just be Diviner ban evocation then class into incantrix and ban enchantment? are there any other class features that can replace a familiar?

[eggynack]

I was actually thinking wizard 5 incantrix 3 IotSV 7 Arch-Mage 5
Well, I'd probably just go with full incantrix, because it's a pretty good class the whole way through, but the (ish) part of wizard(ish) covers random acts of god wizards, and that includes prestige classes. More to the point, the skill requirements of the class must be met prior to taking levels in the class, so your build of wizard(ish) 8/ initiate 7/ wizard(ish) 5 would have to change that 8 into a 9.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hey, I wrote up another, different version of that character...

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=525975

Let me put it this way.

It is a really really really good idea to ban schools. Do NOT be afraid to ban schools, as long as you don't ban Conjuration and Transmutation.

That character is a focused specialist Conjurer, has banned enchantment, illusion, and evocation, and he is STILL a fantastic blaster and absurdly survivable and has a solution to every problem ever.

My guy banned Illusion not because it isn't good (it is), but because a single spell shuts down the entire school.

[Psyren]

Wait couldn't I just be Diviner ban evocation then class into incantrix and ban enchantment? are there any other class features that can replace a familiar?

The problem with Diviner is that it's hard to find a decent divination for every spell level. The more books you have access to the easier this gets, but there are only so many ways you can ask the DM for a hint and it gets old.

^ above: I would honestly ban abjuration or necromancy before illusion, illusion is just that good. Abjuration is good too but has a lot of overlap with the divine list, so I tend to drop it and let the cleric do the dispels and such.

[Agincourt]

Wait couldn't I just be Diviner ban evocation then class into incantrix and ban enchantment? are there any other class features that can replace a familiar?
Yes, you can be a Diviner and just ban the one school.

In the Player's Handbook II, each type of specialist can get a special ability instead of having a familiar. Conjurers just happen to get the best one. Diviners get "Glimpse Peril." It gives you a +2 insight bonus to a saving throw, which you can activate 10 + 1/2 your wizard level + Int times per day. Not bad, but not great either.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, the other problem with Diviner is Spontaneous Divination acf exists.

[eggynack]

Hey, I wrote up another, different version of that character...

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=525975

Let me put it this way.

It is a really really really good idea to ban schools. Do NOT be afraid to ban schools, as long as you don't ban Conjuration and Transmutation.

That character is a focused specialist Conjurer, has banned enchantment, illusion, and evocation, and he is STILL a fantastic blaster and absurdly survivable and has a solution to every problem ever.
Yeah, I've gotta agree with this. A wizard could possibly do better with the whole elven generalist/domain wizard thing, but domain wizard is crazy. I'd personally prefer banning necromancy to banning illusion, but it's really a preference sort of thing by that point. The two schools are on similar power levels, and I can see banning abjuration if your party has other sources of dispel magic (though incantrix and Iot7v make this problematic). Banning schools can cause problems if you have a crazy amount of spell access, and have the foreknowledge of future events, but for a practical game, a wizard is unlikely to feel the burn of long term versatility loss.

[Reprimand]

Could losing a familiar and not being able to gain any sort animal follower qualify as a flaw?

[Psyren]

Could losing a familiar and not being able to gain any sort animal follower qualify as a flaw?

There is a dragon flaw that tosses your familiar for a feat I believe

[Reprimand]

Do you know what it's called? Is it Forlorn?

EDIT: Nevermind, it is Forlorn.

[morkendi]

One thing I have always done if your DM allows. Silent image. I make an illusion an hide in it. If there are boulders around, I make one and get in. You can do anything. Trees outside, dresser or chest in castle. Wall across the room. You should be able to see through your illusion because your proof it is not real is because you cast it. You have to take your move action to maintane the illusion. Take one round to load your crossbow and fire next round. My DM makes us do a concentration check if we try to cast another spell. If we fail, the illusion drops.

[Psyren]

My DM makes us do a concentration check if we try to cast another spell. If we fail, the illusion drops.

Your DM is being nice, because by RAW you would be exposed:


You can’t cast a spell while concentrating on another one.

[Segev]

The Mist Cloak
CL: 1, Silent Image, Create Water, 3000 gp
(4000 gp base for Continuous Silent Image; 1000 gp base for Create Water use-activated. 40% reduction overall for Silent Image creating one specific image only.)

This double-sided cloak is black on one side and mist-gray on the other. When worn gray-side out, it projects a Silent Image of thick, oppressive fog with the occasional shadow that looks roughly like the outline of the cloak's wearer within. Every exposed surface has the faintest sheen of water created on it, giving it a clamminess that feels like the fog is real.

The Will DC to disbelieve the fog, should somebody have reason to suspect, is only 12. Most wearers know the truth of their garment, though some adventurers may find them "second-hand" and not realize what it is they're seeing. The devious advantage this gives the wearer and his party, when they disbelieve the illusion but their foes do not, is not to be underestimated.

[Reprimand]

The Mist Cloak
CL: 1, Silent Image, Create Water, 3000 gp
(4000 gp base for Continuous Silent Image; 1000 gp base for Create Water use-activated. 40% reduction overall for Silent Image creating one specific image only.)

This double-sided cloak is black on one side and mist-gray on the other. When worn gray-side out, it projects a Silent Image of thick, oppressive fog with the occasional shadow that looks roughly like the outline of the cloak's wearer within. Every exposed surface has the faintest sheen of water created on it, giving it a clamminess that feels like the fog is real.

The Will DC to disbelieve the fog, should somebody have reason to suspect, is only 12. Most wearers know the truth of their garment, though some adventurers may find them "second-hand" and not realize what it is they're seeing. The devious advantage this gives the wearer and his party, when they disbelieve the illusion but their foes do not, is not to be underestimated.

Got anything cheaper like level 1 - 3 WPL? Also, I'm going to be including the Otyugh Hole in my backstory so I'm going to be losing out on 3k gold in my WPL so I can get iron will for incantrix without using a feat slot. My DM also says I can buy skill focus: Spellcraft (prereq for Sevefold.) for 5k gold which I think is worth it. ( I'm buying these as I go, Basicially I just won't earn some gold at certain levels until it's paid off). He won't let me buy spell focus though which is fair I suppose. What do you people think?

[Segev]

Wand of Silent Image for 750, UMD, let your familiar use it and concentrate on it?

[Reprimand]

Wand of Silent Image for 750, UMD, let your familiar use it and concentrate on it?

Killing my familiar for a feat with the forlorn flaw.

<- Hates animal followers unless he's a druid

[Reprimand]

Sorry for the double post, what book is the 3.5 incantarix in? The one with instant metamagic at level 3. I can't seem to find it anywhere!

[Gavinfoxx]

Sorry for the double post, what book is the 3.5 incantarix in? The one with instant metamagic at level 3. I can't seem to find it anywhere!

I believe it is in player's guide to faerun.

[Reprimand]

I believe it is in player's guide to faerun.

I tried that, that's the instant metamagic at level 7 version and isn't updated for 3.5.

EDIT: Neither is the Magic of Faerun book.

[eggynack]

I tried that, that's the instant metamagic at level 7 version and isn't updated for 3.5.

EDIT: Neither is the Magic of Faerun book.
I'm pretty sure that Player's guide is 3.5. Magic of Faerun is 3.0. Also, I think Gavin was referring to metamagic effect rather than instant metamagic, because metamagic effect is likely their best ability.

[Reprimand]

I'm pretty sure that Player's guide is 3.5. Magic of Faerun is 3.0. Also, I think Gavin was referring to metamagic effect rather than instant metamagic, because metamagic effect is likely their best ability.

Oh god am I derp! I was mistaking the name of the ability for another in the handbook I was reading, you were both totally right. Sorry! xD

EDIT: Is losing out on enchantment and at later levels evocation going to break a wizard? Out of it I'll end up with specialization in both divination (from wizard) and abjuration (mandatory loss for initiate of the sevenfold veil).

It also says I can keep the enchantment spells I learn before becoming an initiate so should I delay that class as long as possible to horde spells I won't otherwise be able to use?

[Drake2009]

Woah. So many strategies! My wizard just spams fireball from his staff and buffs his party members. He also makes magic items.

[eggynack]

Is losing out on enchantment and at later levels evocation going to break a wizard? Out of it I'll end up with specialization in both divination (from wizard) and abjuration (mandatory loss for initiate of the sevenfold veil).

It also says I can keep the enchantment spells I learn before becoming an initiate so should I delay that class as long as possible to horde spells I won't otherwise be able to use?
I think that both of these factors were only components of the MoF version of incantarix. In the PGtF version, you neither specialize in abjuration, nor do you keep old spells. Also, incantarix is the one where you get a bonus prohibited school. Losing evocation causes you to miss out on a few spells, primarily stuff like contingency. You can make up the difference with shadow evocation to some extent, though you may want to hash out the details of that one with your DM, because it's weird. Like, how is a wall of force impacted by only being quasi-real? Is a shadow contingency impacted at all by being shadowy? Weird stuff. Enchantment has some reasonably powerful effects, but they're so one note that it's not worth keeping for the most part. If they work, they work really well, but there are too many ways to easily defend against them, and a well built wizard gets off on having his spells always work.

If you're interested in ditching a third school, the usual choices are necromancy and illusion, especially in this case where you can't drop abjuration for various reasons. If you're going with initiate over incantarix, it might be worth it to specialize in abjuration, and go into master specialist from Complete Mage. It's a bit on the boring side, but it gives you a lot of the initiate prerequisites, and the class' prerequisite is also a prerequisite for initiate. It's all very clean, and well worth looking into.

[Reprimand]

Why would you use a perfectly good staff for fireball. o_O the only time you should use a staff is when you have a spell you might need to cast like 5 times in a single day on a rare occasion like Teleport for fetch quests or something.

Hopefully you don't mean the animal adjective spells right? i.e. Bull's Strength, etc.

A wise man once said, "Anytime a Wizard casts a spell from the Cleric list he's a chump."

Not that there's anything wrong with that it's just not as efficient as other options. Mind you, I'm kind of stickler for that sort of thing. I guess if they bought you a pearl of power you could do it each day for them.

Making magic items is always fun, just don't take craft magic arms and armor or you might become to party crafting slave or you might take it and charge 75% vs your 50% on materials and make a tidy profit.

EDIT: Deleted old stuff

[eggynack]

@above incantatrix isn't causing me to have to spec a 2nd time, sevenfold IS.
Why? I don't see any component of initiate that would cause you to double specialize. I'm pretty sure that you're thinking of incantarix on this one, and the older version at that.

[Reprimand]

Why? I don't see any component of initiate that would cause you to double specialize. I'm pretty sure that you're thinking of incantarix on this one, and the older version at that.

Okay your right I am super confused after having to read two different versions of the same class. Editing the post now.

[O.j.s]

you don't need be a specialized to get into ISV or Incantatrix but, it's easier be one if you wanna be a ISV cause you can be a Master Specialist and get skill focus and spell focus for free.

http://dndtools.eu/

This page is pretty useful and halps me so much

incantatrix is in Player's guide to faerun. Ignore the 3.0 version.

[Reprimand]

Actually 3.5 incantatrix DOES force you to specialize in one type of magic it just doesn't have to be abjuration.

it's on page 62 of the player's guide to faerun, focused studies (EX).

It makes me spec if I haven't already but I only have to give up one school. since I gave up evocation for divination I would have to give up another school other than abjuration or divination for one school of my choice. Apparently the 3.5 version doesn't let me keep my spells though.

[Aracor]

It...actually doesn't require you to specialize. Whether you're a generalist or a specialist wizard, it requires you to give up a school of magic. However, if you're a generalist, you don't get any of the actual benefits of specialization. It simply requires you to give up a school that is NOT abjuration.

[Reprimand]

Oh so it's just a 2nd or 3rd prohibited school for no bonus? That blows!

EDIT: 1st, 2nd or 3rd*

[Aracor]

Indeed. If you're a focused specialist already, it could actually be a FOURTH prohibited school. It's a testament to the power of this prestige class that despite the cost, it's STILL considered one of the most powerful prestige classes that a wizard can take.

[Reprimand]

Indeed. If you're a focused specialist already, it could actually be a FOURTH prohibited school. It's a testament to the power of this prestige class that despite the cost, it's STILL considered one of the most powerful prestige classes that a wizard can take.

What about an focused specialist, incantatix, red mage? That's 5 banned schools!

[eggynack]

Oh so it's just a 2nd or 3rd prohibited school for no bonus? That blows!

Well, the bonus is being an incantarix. That's one of the biggest bonuses that exists in the game. You can't get much better than metamagic effect, and that includes nearly every possible other ability. I mean, there're better things out there, but it's a short list, and that's far from the only ability the class gets.

[Reprimand]

True but you can't modify a spell with metamagic over the spell level you can actually cast. I recently found an errata for that. Some guy of the WotC forum was convinced he could cast 9th level persisted/etc/etc/etc spells with a high enough spellcraft check.

[O.j.s]

I agree with Aracor. Incantatrix are one of the most powerful classes that a wizard could take. in m y opnion you can add in top five the following classes:

incantatrix
initiate of the Sevenfold Veils
shadowcraft Mage
war Weaver
Arcane Hierophant.



Dweomerkeeper is so silly that i dont caunt.

[Gavinfoxx]

As long as you still have Conjuration and Transmutation, you'll be fine.

[eggynack]

True but you can't modify a spell with metamagic over the spell level you can actually cast. I recently found an errata for that. Some guy of the WotC forum was convinced he could cast 9th level persisted/etc/etc/etc spells with a high enough spellcraft check.
That line was only added to instant metamagic. Metamagic effect is apparently safe.

[Reprimand]

What are shadowcraft mage and war weaver? I've never heard of those.

@Above holy crap that's cheesy!

[O.j.s]

They're Prestige classes in races of stone and Heroes of Battle. but use Dnd Tools, I posted the link in my first reply. These page are pretty useful.

war Weaver is the Boss of the Buffers. and shadowcraft mage... Well... have u ever heard about The Killer Gnome?

[Reprimand]

War Weaver seems incredibly over powered it practically turns all friendly spells into mass effects of themselves, that's just the icing on the cake.

I don't really understand shadowcraft mage, though it seems like whisper gnome like THE race to play with it not even regular gnomes can compare to those.

You ninja'd me with an edit! lol.

And no I've never heard of the killer gnome.

[Zanos]

What are shadowcraft mage and war weaver? I've never heard of those.

@Above holy crap that's cheesy!

Indeed. Boost spellcraft, persist all of your buffs all day. It's a shame that it gets banned at a lot of tables because I like to use it with blasters which isn't nearly as broken.

[Reprimand]

Indeed. Boost spellcraft, persist all of your buffs all day. It's a shame that it gets banned at a lot of tables because I like to use it with blasters which isn't nearly as broken.

This is my first time attempting a fully optimized caster so I'm pretty new to this concept. When I thought cheese a couple of weeks ago I thought book of nine swords maybe even a battle jumping monk with GMW and leap of the heavens.

This is a whole new level.

[O.j.s]

War Weaver seems incredibly over powered it practically turns all friendly spells into mass effects of themselves, that's just the icing on the cake.

I don't really understand shadowcraft mage, though it seems like whisper gnome like THE race to play with it not even regular gnomes can compare to those.

You ninja'd me with an edit! lol.

And no I've never heard of the killer gnome.

You're right in both cases. My actual DM created a ISV/ War Weaver for a campaign once. ****ing powerfull. And the Whisper gnomes are one of the best races in the game, some people thing that it should have LA.

About edits hauahauhaua unfortunately my English skills aren't perfect, so I edit a lot to correct mistakes.

Btw Killer Gnomes is how they call The Shadowcraft mage builds.
With this build you just can cast an entire school banned " evocation" and also cast miracle without xp cost.

[Reprimand]

You're right in both cases. My actual DM created a ISV/ War Weaver for a campaign once. ****ing powerfull. And the Whisper gnomes are one of the best races in the game, some people thing that it should have LA.

About edits hauahauhaua unfortunately my English skills aren't perfect, so I edit a lot to correct mistakes.

Same deal every single one of my posts has a "last edited XX:XX" marker lol.

Jesus tier one classes truely do rule the world when optimized and managed perfectly. Isn't there an epic level spell, Teleport through time? What class other than Soc/Wiz can duplicate that?

Nope actually that's a 9th level spell

edit: jeez warweaver can give mind blank to everyone in the eldritch tapestry that's so ridiculous

[O.j.s]

I`m also a noob in CO. Ive learned a lot with our actual DM.

Now I`m working up a wizard build quite simple, but I hope that will be effective.
Conjurer 5/ Master Specialist 10/Archmage 3 / Paragnostic Apostle 2.

However the power of a wizard laid in the Player`s Inteligence. Doesn`t matter how powerfull are your prestige classes if you don`t know how to select spells and use them wisely.

[Reprimand]

I`m also a noob in CO. Ive learned a lot with our actual DM.

Now I`m working up a wizard build quite simple, but I hope that will be effective.
Conjurer 5/ Master Specialist 10/Archmage 3 / Paragnostic Apostle 2.

However the power of a wizard laid in the Player`s Inteligence. Doesn`t matter how powerfull are your prestige classes if you don`t know how to select spells and use them wisely.

Right that's why I'm kind of working from the ground up here. xD

EDIT: Do me a favor and add me to your friend's list, never hurts to have a second opinion/brain to pick right? :3

[O.j.s]

edit: jeez warweaver can give mind blank to everyone in the eldritch tapestry that's so ridiculous

It can't. The Tapestry has a limit level for spells, I guess that are up to 5th lvl and mindblank is 8th.


EDIT: Do me a favor and add me to your friend's list, never hurts to have a second opinion/brain to pick right? :3

How I do that?

Nevermind. I got it.

[eggynack]

Jeez warweaver can give mind blank to everyone in the eldritch tapestry that's so ridiculous
This one actually doesn't work. The relevant line is, "The maximum level of spell you can cast into an eldritch tapestry is equal to your class level." Thus, the max level of a weave spell is normally at five. You can probably pick that up with uncanny trickster from Complete Scoundrel, and legacy champion from Weapons of Legacy, because those can generally extend classes past their end point, but it's a tricky business, and you're losing at least one caster level for the privilege. I mean, I have a neat sublime chord build that gets you normal sublime chord progression that advances war weaver to seven without losing extra caster levels, but it's probably not as good as just entering from wizard.

[Malroth]

Shadowcraft mage Is an Illusion Specialized build that winds up Adding the strategic versitility of a full wizard to a sorcorer base, adds the tactical flexibility of a sorcorer to a wizard base. Their main trick is the ability to spontaneously use any illusion spell to duplicate the effects of almost any conjuration or evocation spell of lower level. Combined with Earth spell from the same book and you can reach equal level conversion of heightend silent image spells. They also get improved shadow reality that allows them to deal more damage than the base spell to creatures with illusion immunity or make their saves as well as a permanent 50% miss chance and free extend spell on any Illusion spell including illusions that now duplicate summon spells instead of their original effect.

[Petrocorus]

I agree with Aracor. Incantatrix are one of the most powerful classes that a wizard could take. in m y opnion you can add in top five the following classes:

incantatrix
initiate of the Sevenfold Veils
shadowcraft Mage
war Weaver
Arcane Hierophant.



Dweomerkeeper is so silly that i dont caunt.

Concerning Arcane Hierophant, have you got a mean to get Trackless Step without taking 3 level of Druid? And any early entry trick on the divine side?

Concerning Dweomerkeeper, free wishes are cool, but i'm not sure this is sillier that all the broken metamagic shenanigans of the Incantatrix. And, unless you use the Sha'Ir class or a liberal reading of Anyspell, i believe it does force you to multiclass.


@ Gavinfoxx: What is the Eidetic Spellcaster ACF?

[Segev]

Killing my familiar for a feat with the forlorn flaw.

<- Hates animal followers unless he's a druid

Without an "extra person" to concentrate on Silent Image, no, I can't think of a good way to use it cheaply to hide yourself and still be useful, unless you maintain it for yourself AND your party and rely on them being treated as Concealed or Totally Concealed to make your inaction worth it.

[7thW1ckedness]

Hiding in the back of the party with a light crossbow and true-strike is a good idea, aim for eye shots of course, nothing aside from undead should take a bolt in the eye socket very well.

Aside from that, synergy with whatever the rest of the party is generally helps, toss down enough control to make the cleric/pally/ect want to toss healing spells your way, buff the barb/ftr/whatever so they can do their nasty buissness, keep the rouge/monk/whoever covered in fog or smoke so they can throw monkey wrenches into whatever they come in contact with.

Buying trained "riding dogs" (you know, rottweilers?) taught to pounce and chew on command (and investing a spot of cross class into handle animal maybe) is a cheep way to get some meat shields in front of you too, and actually as a way to pull some heat off of your familiar if you have one.

On top of that "riding dogs" make a great utility creatures for a lot of situations at the affordable price of around 150Gp (plus or minus whatever the DM deems appropriate of course) hauling gear and loot, stashing emergency weapons, keeping watch at night, chasing down fleeing foes or tracking them, ect ect, and at worse, you could eat them if starvation was a concern.

*side note: even standard "guard dogs" for 25gp works pretty good too at lower levels if your a little skinny on cash.

[eggynack]

Hiding in the back of the party with a light crossbow and true-strike is a good idea, aim for eye shots of course, nothing aside from undead should take a bolt in the eye socket very well.

True strike seems like a really bad idea. Generally, the reason you carry a crossbow at all is because you want something to do when you lack spells. If you have the spells to be casting true strike, then you shouldn't cast true strike, because you'd want to be doing something better. The idea is to prepare a whole pile of spells that are completely unrelated to crossbow shooting, not to prepare a whole pile of spells to augment your central character build of crossbow shooting. It just defeats the whole purpose. Called shots are also a non-thing. Also, about the riding dog thing, you can't teach a riding dog to pounce, because that's a separate ability. You should just get a war trained riding dog, because that's how you get trip.

[Karnith]

What is the Eidetic Spellcaster ACF?
It's a wizard ACF from Dragon Magazine 357. It trades away a wizard's familiar and Scribe Scroll bonus feat in exchange for not needing a spellbook. An eidetic wizard retains all of his spell knowledge in his head, and does not need a spellbook to learn or prepare spells.

[Gavinfoxx]

@ Gavinfoxx: What is the Eidetic Spellcaster ACF?

My version of the Easy Bake Wizard, for low wealth games!


Here's the recipe for one of my favorite ways of playing D&D, an Easy Bake Wizard. Put the Sorcerer to shame (well, at anything except metamagic-heavy blasting...sorcerer has a ton of ACF's for that, which you don't get...)!

Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard

Ingredients:
1 Gray Elf (SRD, MM1)
1 Wizard Class (PHB, SRD)
1 Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level (Races of the Wild)
1 Eidetic Spellcaster Alternative Class Feature (Dragon Magazine #357 -- the core of the build!)
1 Spontaneous Divination Alternative Class Feature (Complete Champion, be sure to check out the errata online!)
1 Collegiate Wizard Feat (Complete Arcane)
1 Greyhawk Method Feat (Dragon Magazine #315, optional, requires DM adjudication)
1 Aerenal Arcanist feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, optional)
1 Eschew Materials feat (PHB, SRD)
1 Domain Wizard variant, Transmutation or Conjuration domain (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional)
Flaws, to taste (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional, but necessary if you want all those feats by level 3)
Extra bits, optional, see later instructions!

Mix in bowl, and be sure to top with any one of these feats:
Acidic Splatter, Winter's Blast, or Fiery Burst (all from Complete Mage)

Notes: if it doesn't turn out right when playing it in a zero wealth game, you picked bad spells. Be sure to look at the various wizard handbooks for how to pick solid, powerful, versatile spells. And it is very thematic that you can do stuff like leave a slot open to spend 15 minutes preparing the correct spell you need in it, or take Uncanny Forethought or Alacritous Cogitation, or Nexus Method, consider taking those later. And you automatically just 'get' spells like a sorcerer... no need for scrolls or anything. This Wizard idea relies on exactly zero found scrolls and zero need for items to scribe things into his spellbook, and with Eschew Materials and the right spells chosen, doesn't even need a Spell Component Pouch (just don't take any spells with focuses or components more than 5 gp)! Also, some people might think that this trading out the ability to specialize three times, but that isn't what is going on. Due to differing language between the various options, that isn't what's happening. Some of the stuff says that 'if you don't specialize, you can do this', some of the stuff says 'by removing the ability to specialize entirely, you gain this ability.' Order in which the abilities are taken matters.

Further, some more possible ingredients to take include:

-Alacritous Cogitation feat at level 6 (Complete Mage)
-Another Great option for race is a Lesser Fey'ri (Players Guide to Faerun and Races of Faerun) with LA Bought off (the LA buyoff option is in the SRD and Unearthed Arcana; choose the powers to get the minimum LA for that race). This lets you make use of that Alter Self at will; read the handbook on the uses of Alter Self, it's fantastic.
-Get the Nexus Method feat from Dragon Magazine #319! This lets you spontaneously cast the summon monster line, and apparently adds all the spells to your spellbook! If you do this, you probably want the Transmutation Domain rather than the Conjuration Domain, to maximize spells known.
-Another option is Lesser Celadrin. You combine the rules in Player's Guide to Faerun and the rules in Dragon Magazine #350 to get Lesser Celadrin.
-Fire Elf (UA/SRD) works well too.
-Sun Elf (PgtF, I think) works well

-If you ask for houserules, consider these two:
-Permission to house rule that you can take Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) at level 9, with the Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) and the Eidetic Spellacster ACF taking place of the Spell Mastery prerequisite, without access to the 'spell mastery' capability from that feat
-Hopefully permission to house rule for the character to count Autohypnosis (XPH, SRD) as a class skill, to describe the character's eidetic memory being useful for things other than spellcasting (assuming the GM uses Autohypnosis in his game! Or get it's abilities shunted into Concentration, or whatever)

Some numbers:

Basic Wizard: Start with 3+Int mod L1 spells, +2 each level as baseline
Elf Generalist Wizard: +1 wizard spell at start, +1 each level beyond baseline
Collegiate Wizard (this is superior to Greyhawk Method, due to more spells when starting the game): Instead of 3+int and +2 each level, baseline is set at 6+int and +4 each level
If Greyhawk Method & Collegiate Wizard Stack: +2 spells per level
Aerenal Arcanist: +1 each level beyond baseline, including L1 if you take it then
Domain Wizard (Transmutation or Conjuration): One specific extra spell of each spell levels; +9 spells over career (cantrip is already known)
Nexus Method: Apparently automatically gets you the entire Summon Monster line!

So at level one, with a 20 int (cause Grey Elf or whatever, or 21 if you start at middle aged...), without flaws, assuming Greyhawk Method and Collegiate Wizard don't stack you know:
13 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain six new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 6 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...

With flaws, if Greyhawk Method and Collegiate Wizard DO stack, you get:

15 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain 8 new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 8 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...


Essentially, you end up with a more versatile Sorcerer, who has access to a TON of spells, and can always get the right spell for the job... even with no gear whatsoever. And no Vow of Poverty (ewww, exalted! And not able to gather even useful cheap equipment!) needed to be useful without wealth!

Finally, if you want to gain access to even MORE spells, the Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class can be useful. Or, if you have access to wealth by level, than Mercantile Background can get you cheaper scrolls to scribe to your brain.

[morkendi]

Prestidigitation and alchemist fire vials or such...... light and throw at hexes that opponents are standing in once you are out of normal spells.

[Reprimand]

Hm, so really the best means of survival is to just do low risk non-magical things for the first few levels?

i.e. Alch-fire and crossbows?

Can someone list off the three 0LA +2 int elf races? I know sun elf and grey elf, what's the other one?

I was thinking of either a human or those. Possibly a strongheart Halfling or whisper gnome.

Thoughts on small races vs medium races?

[Karnith]

Can someone list off the three 0LA +2 int elf races? I know sun elf and grey elf, what's the other one?
Fire Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves) are a third, although there are actually more than just those three.

If you're really concerned about having enough spells at low levels, Deep Imaskari (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b) could be another option, as they get +2 to Int and get what amounts to a free bonus first-level spell per day.

[Reprimand]

If you're really concerned about having enough spells at low levels, Deep Imaskari (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b) could be another option, as they get +2 to Int and get what amounts to a free bonus first-level spell per day.

I understand your point but this is just a basic D&D campaign with some splatbooks and were in a port city so I kind of doubt there are deep imaskari just walking around in broad daylight (plus being different from other people tends to make you a target) and I don't really want to rock the boat since this is my first time playing an optimized wizard anyway.

Heck I don't even know what book that's in! xD

EDIT: Thanks for the input though I appreciate it!

[eggynack]

Hm, so really the best means of survival is to just do low risk non-magical things for the first few levels?

i.e. Alch-fire and crossbows?
Eh, kinda. The crossbow is mostly just so that you have something to do when you don't have spells, or when an encounter seems low risk enough that you don't need to spend spells on it. This is only really true for extremely early levels, because second level spells tend to be quite good. Like, if you find a place where web fits, that's a whole encounter that's probably just dead. Wizards really don't have that few spells per day, but it's just nice to have something to do when you run out.

[O.j.s]

I was thinking of either a human or those. Possibly a strongheart Halfling or whisper gnome.

Thoughts on small races vs medium races?[/QUOTE]

all of them are solid choices. i'm not sure but I think that Lesser Tiefling get Int bonus also.

[Reprimand]

What are some general thoughts in terms of pro/cons on Small sized casters vs medium ones?

[Psyren]

What are some general thoughts in terms of pro/cons on Small sized casters vs medium ones?

Small have slightly higher AC and slightly better chance to hit with RTAs. But they also tend to be slower, which can hurt at low levels.

[Reprimand]

I forgot about the slower movement speed, that really sucks.

EDIT: Are Whisper gnomes the only +0 la small race with 30' movement?

[O.j.s]

What are some general thoughts in terms of pro/cons on Small sized casters vs medium ones?

pros are AC and hit bonus. cons the obvious provlem with trip, bull rushs etc. smal races pretty good for wizards. Strongheart Halflings are considered one of the best ones.

If you are allowed you can take lesser drow or some elf race to chose
"otherworldly" be an outsider open you lots of stuffs using Alter-self.

Yes. They are. But bont worry about movement, you are a wizard and have spells to do it.

[Reprimand]

is otherworldly a trait, feat, ...? Trying to save feats for item creation and metamagic.

[O.j.s]

a feat. metamagic is just worthy if you can reduce the cost of them the same for Item creation ones.

google it.: Wizard Handbook Being a God.

There you can find good ideas.

[Reprimand]

Trust me I have my metamagic reducers covered.

Arcane thesis: enervation is just beautiful

Chain Spell + Maximize + Enervation = "So... about those four negative levels to all the enemies."

[O.j.s]

I believe you know that Arcane Thesis was errated, dont you?

It reduces just -1 n the final of the contage now. Also, it seems that you ll be an Incantatrix , so you just need Craft Wand.

[Reprimand]

Oh, no I didn't know I thought it reduced both metamagic feats, dang.

[Agincourt]

Kobolds also have 30' movement and no level adjustment.

[morkendi]

I like whisper gnome and human for most of my wizards. Shadow craft mage is very good even if you go in with deviner. I took the acf for my deviner called prescience that let's you add your int mod to a roll or caster lvl a certain times a day per lvl. It has helped me countless times. With SCM, you can make them believe by adding it to your CL. Human is good for able learner and bonus feats.

[Karnith]

Chain Spell + Maximize + Enervation = "So... about those four negative levels to all the enemies."
Unfortunately, that particular trick doesn't work, because the Enervation spell lacks a Target line; it has Effect: Ray instead.

I believe you know that Arcane Thesis was errated, dont you?

It reduces just -1 n the final of the contage now.
Unless I'm not parsing what you're saying correctly, it was actually errata'ed the other way around - it now unambiguously reduces the cost of each metamagic feat applied by 1. Per the errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a):
Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile (assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2; and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

[Reprimand]

My DM, is letting me buy some of the feats I would otherwise have to waste a feat slot on. I am buying iron will and Skill Focus: Spellcraft worth a total of 8k. He's taking it out of my WPL not just off the top, so I'll earn a little less each level until it's "paid off."

Iron will is costing me 3k because that's the price listed in CS for the otyugh hole quest but he's just letting me buy it, He knows I'm getting a bonus from skill focus for both incantrix spellcraft checks and the one requirements for IotSV.

Is that worth buying to save feats?

@above I'll see which ruling my DM is using because that seems a little ridiculous to get all those spell levels off.

[eggynack]

I believe you know that Arcane Thesis was errated, dont you?

It reduces just -1 n the final of the contage now. Also, it seems that you ll be an Incantatrix , so you just need Craft Wand.
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying about arcane thesis here, but it appears different from an accurate claim. Maybe. The major errata on arcane thesis merely stops you from dropping a spell below its original level. You're fully free to use zero cost metamagic to reduce the cost of high cost metamagic. In this way, an invisible empowered fireball with arcane thesis would be slotted as a third level spell.

Edit: I have been swordsage'd,
Because I was slow to act
like I've always been.

Anyways, yeah, getting iron will for 3000 GP is worth it. Feats are super important, and 3000 GP is generally not that.

[Karnith]

Is that worth buying to save feats?
Absolutely yes. Feats are pretty scarce in this game (think of how few you'll ever get in your career), so getting some for such a small amount of gold, especially when you need them to get into classes, is definitely worth it.

@above I'll see which ruling my DM is using because that seems a little ridiculous to get all those spell levels off.That's why Arcane Thesis (and Incantatrix, come to think of it, though it has a lot of other crazy things) is banned at a lot of tables. Metamagic reducers tend to be ridiculous.

But it works by RAW.

[Reprimand]

He's also doing skill focus for 5k for any skill I was gonna get spell craft for the entry to IotSV and the bonus for incantatrix.

[ryu]

YESSSSS DO EEET.

Feats for money are tasty. There are very few relevant to whatever my character does that I wouldn't buy if allowed. It's a gimme.

[Reprimand]

The only real problem is he can take said money at any time without me being able to do much about it.

I.e. get paid for a job: you break a vase on your way out so your client takes 500 gold from your pay.

EDIT: I guess it pays out late game though.

[ryu]

Do you have any idea how little 8k really is in general late game? Hell I think that's actually a steal of a price regardless of when he decides you make payments. Heck I'd pay significantly more to just get free featy goodness.

[eggynack]

The only real problem is he can take said money at any time without me being able to do much about it.

I.e. get paid for a job: you break a vase on your way out so your client takes 500 gold from your pay.

EDIT: I guess it pays out late game though.
So it's not even an upfront cost? That probably makes it even better. I mean, if you just imagine yourself as setting aside 5,000 GP at the beginning of the game, and deducting from it when stuff happens, this is virtually identical to that setup. It seems pretty weird to frame it in terms of crazy random happenstance though. A theoretical downside is that you could end up characterized as a clumsy oaf if all of your losses are put in terms of broken vases. Shop keeps rush to get vases out of the way of your approach, for you represent the doom of their livelihood.

[Reprimand]

I guess your right. Plus it helps that he's not taking it all at once or just saying I'm in debt to the mob or something.

What are some other "Bad" feats worth buying?

@above he said he would try to keep that stuff to a minimum, I just used a random example.

[eggynack]

I guess your right. Plus it helps that he's not taking it all at once or just saying I'm in debt to the mob or something.

What are some other "Bad" feats worth buying?
I dunno if there necessarily are any. The real reason it's worth buying iron will is that you're not really buying iron will. You needed to get iron will to progress as a character, so you're really buying a significantly better feat. In this way, you're truly paying 3,000 GP for arcane thesis or something. If you don't have other prerequisites that can be paid for, the feat has to be evaluated on its own intrinsic merits, so you can just judge that math style. For example, iron will costs 3,000 GP, while a +2 cloak of resistance costs 4,000 GP. The latter is a clearly better value, so buying iron will is only better if you need more save boosting than a cloak of resistance can provide. When you put things in terms of GP, you should always consider the other plausible ways you could make the conversion, and run comparisons. There's also a whole bunch of skill boosting items, though it might be worth double dipping for something as point intensive as incantarix.

[Reprimand]

What's the cheapest way to duplicate a permanent +3 unnamed bonus to spellcraft in terms of items.

5k vs what a 30k ioun stone or something?

[eggynack]

What's the cheapest way to duplicate a permanent +3 unnamed bonus to spellcraft in terms of items.

5k vs what a 30k ioun stone or something?
I dunno if you'd ever be doing it unnamed, which is an advantage of the feat method of doing things. Buying feats in this way is at its best when you want to have the same thing in a bunch of different ways. I've heard good things about using guidance of the avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a), possibly on an item of some kind, so that you can use it a couple of times at the beginning of the day for persisting purposes.

[Reprimand]

I dunno if you'd ever be doing it unnamed, which is an advantage of the feat method of doing things. Buying feats in this way is at its best when you want to have the same thing in a bunch of different ways. I've heard good things about using guidance of the avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a), possibly on an item of some kind, so that you can use it a couple of times at the beginning of the day for persisting purposes.

Wow +20 is huge Maybe I can just buy an item that casts it 1/day with the persisted meta magic already on it. (I doubt I can make the Spellcraft check without that +20 already in place)

EDIT: Theoretically which is better late game a human or a +2 int elf race?

Also is it even viable to have only 6 str on a wizard?

[ryu]

My logic on the skill booster being good to buy now would be that you're probably going to buy as many boosters for that skill as possible either way right? It's something you're going to take as much of as possible so the feat is valuable regardless.

Edit: You don't care about strength. You aren't fighting with weapons and you have spells and party members (read: minions) to carry or move any heavy things to sell into easily divided loot. Only issue is strength lowering poisons, but if the enemy is already getting some kind of successful attack with all the defensive shenanigans you were going to have problems either way.

[Reprimand]

I was planning on taking the feat regardless I was just wondering how it matched up to other options in cost/efficiency.

[ryu]

With a little ingenuity you probably could do it for cheaper especially if you're familiar with stuff that subs for xp crafting cost like liquid pain, or liquid happiness/ecstasy/I forgot what exact word the good spell used for the joy juice of goodness.

[O.j.s]

You dont need a Unnamed Bonus in spellcraft. You can buy a competence bonus item normaly. the highest bonus is +30 for 90k but you can buy a small one and improving it.

[ryu]

And then you craft that item instead to lower the price even lower. You were already apparently planning to be a crafter right?

[eggynack]

Wow +20 is huge Maybe I can just buy an item that casts it 1/day with the persisted meta magic already on it. (I doubt I can make the Spellcraft check without that +20 already in place)

I don't think that guidance of the avatar is the kinda thing you persist. It looks like persisting it would let you use it for 24 hours, or until it's discharged, so the net effect would be the same. Anyway, if you're using spellcraft to persist, it doesn't matter too much that the boost is temporary. Just get it so that you can use guidance as many times as you need persisted buffs. You just cast it once for each buff you want, and you end up in a pretty great place. My favorite is persisted greater mirror image, by the way, so you should do that. It's pretty funny.

[Reprimand]

Oh so it's like divine insight then?

And yes I was already playing on being a crafter.

[O.j.s]

About the PH2 errata. Probrably I didnt make myself clear( sorry, my english isn`t so good) so here is the errata:

Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile (assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2; and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

It demonstrates exactly what I wnated say.

if you have three metamagic feats that costs +3,+3,+2 respectively so you should adjust your spell in +8 levels but if you have Arcane Thesis it will cos +7 [(+3+3+2)-1]. before the errata people used to calculate it as +5 [(+3-1) - (+3-1)+(+2-1)]

[Reprimand]

About the PH2 errata. Probrably I didnt make myself clear( sorry, my english isn`t so good) so here is the errata:

Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile (assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2; and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

It demonstrates exactly what I wnated say.

if you have three metamagic feats that costs +3,+3,+2 respectively so you should adjust your spell in +8 levels but if you have Arcane Thesis it will cos +7 [(+3+3+2)-1]. before the errata people used to calculate it as +5 [(+3-1) - (+3-1)+(+2-1)]

Ah that's what I thought, -1 for each metamagic would just be plain silly.

EDIT: How does human compare to elf with int bonus in terms of late game power?

[eggynack]

About the PH2 errata. Probrably I didnt make myself clear( sorry, my english isn`t so good) so here is the errata:

Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile (assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2; and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

It demonstrates exactly what I wnated say.

if you have three metamagic feats that costs +3,+3,+2 respectively so you should adjust your spell in +8 levels but if you have Arcane Thesis it will cos +7 [(+3+3+2)-1]. before the errata people used to calculate it as +5 [(+3-1) - (+3-1)+(+2-1)]
Ah, so you were misinterpreting it. If you have three metamagic spells, the total cost is reduced by three. That's incredibly clear from the example in the errata. It says in the example that an empowered maximized magic missile is prepared as a 4th level spell. That's one from magic missile, plus two from empowered, minus one from arcane thesis, plus three from maximized, minus one from arcane thesis. In your interpretation, the final cost would be reduced by one, so the final price would put it at a 5th level spell. Because it's not a 5th level spell, but a 4th level spell, your interpretation is wrong.

[eggynack]

Ah that's what I thought, -1 for each metamagic would just be plain silly.

EDIT: How does human compare to elf with int bonus in terms of late game power?
As I noted, it is both silly and accurate. Such is the way of things. Anyway, I tend to prefer more modular bonuses, so I like human more than elf. Elves also usually (always?) lose constitution, and I dislike losing constitution on a wizard. It's all important and stuff. Still, it's really more of a preference thing than a strictly better thing. If you really dislike specialization, it might be worth going elven generalist from races of the wild. It's pretty neat, especially in conjunction with domain wizard from unearthed arcana.

[Reprimand]

I'll leave interpretation of the errata up to my DM. It doesn't bother me much either way.

But yeah: Int Elf vs Human Late game pros/cons.

EDIT: NINJA'D

EDIT^2: What do you mean by modular bonuses?

[eggynack]

I'll leave interpretation of the errata up to my DM. It doesn't bother me much either way.
I don't really understand what the argument is here. The RAW of the matter is incredibly explicit and clear cut. Any "interpretation" that didn't reduce the cost by one per metamagic applied, down to the original spell level, would be more accurately classified as a house rule. If you just don't want to play with arcane thesis, or seek out an arcane thesis house rule, that's perfectly fine, but this isn't one of those situations where there are two equally valid interpretations of the same text. It just is what it is, and the errata is completely indicative of that fact.

[Reprimand]

I don't really understand what the argument is here. The RAW of the matter is incredibly explicit and clear cut. Any "interpretation" that didn't reduce the cost by one per metamagic applied, down to the original spell level, would be more accurately classified as a house rule. If you just don't want to play with arcane thesis, or seek out an arcane thesis house rule, that's perfectly fine, but this isn't one of those situations where there are two equally valid interpretations of the same text. It just is what it is, and the errata is completely indicative of that fact.

I was simply trying not to take sides and leave it up to my DM who might have either view point instead of trying to argue with either you, oj or my DM.

[eggynack]

I was simply trying not to take sides and leave it up to my DM who might have either view point instead of trying to argue with either you, oj or my DM.
If you have any kind of argument for it being different for how I've stated it is, that's a thing of some kind. However, as is, it doesn't look like there are any sides to take, or interpretations to make (cakes to bake, etcetera).

[Reprimand]

Well did you mean by modular bonuses? I'm not familiar with all of the words you used. =/

[Karnith]

But yeah: Int Elf vs Human Late game pros/cons.
Being an elf means that you will have a higher Int score than a human, but at later levels that means less and less (boosting ability scores is pretty easy, you get more spell slots from class levels, and saving throws become less important; the difference between an Int 30 and an Int 32 wizard is not huge). It's still important, but having that Human bonus feat is pretty good at all levels. Neither is better than the other, strictly speaking (unless Chaos Shuffling or Psychic Reformation are on the table, in which case elves pull ahead because they effectively get four free feats), so it's mostly a matter of preference.

Since your build sounds pretty feat-intensive, though (two PrCs, metamagic tricks, and crafting), I would recommend going with human to make fitting everything in easier.

[eggynack]

Well did you mean by modular bonuses? I'm not familiar with all of the words you used. =/
I just meant that I like it when you can do a variety of things with the benefit you get. A bonus feat can be anything, while an intelligence bonus is the same on every character. Feats represent options, and I like options.

[O.j.s]

Usually Elves sucks. Lose Constitution is aways a bad Idea. also Humans gain a bonus feat and 23 skill points, both of them are rare in the game.However as I sad elves can pick up otherworldly that is extremely powerful combined with alter-self ans polymorph.

Let`s show you an example: Being a outsider you can grab +18 natural armor bonus at level 3 or 5, i`m note sure. You also can fly for 10min/level two levels before you could etc.

[Zanos]

Usually Elves sucks. Lose Constitution is aways a bad Idea. also Humans gain a bonus feat and 23 skill points, both of them are rare in the game.However as I sad elves can pick up otherworldly that is extremely powerful combined with alter-self ans polymorph.

Let`s show you an example: Being a outsider you can grab +18 natural armor bonus at level 3 or 5, i`m note sure. You also can fly for 10min/level two levels before you could etc.

Elves can qualify for wizard racial substitution levels, though. Two of them are really nice.

[Reprimand]

Okay I get what you mean.

But is it fair to negotiate away all of the elven weapon proficency "feats", for a spell focus feat due to a character feeling a revulsion towards the simpletons who fight in combat armed with bits of wood and metal. Seeing ancestral weapon training as a waste of time and skipped out to practice abjuration magic by herself.

Would that seem like I'm asking for too much for too little?

[O.j.s]

So if you don~t want to keep -2 in constitution you should be a human is a solid choice indeed. Whisper Gonome are powerful as well but, honestly I cant see myself playing as a gnome hauuhasus

[Reprimand]

Actually I was going to become a lich later on and then with no con score it wouldn't matter if I had a -2 con in the first place.

Can I get a list of some decent divination spells 1-9 for specialization slots? Any source is allowed, please list the book though.

1- Augury, Identify,

2- Chain of eyes, Detect thoughts, See Invisibility

4- Unluck, Assay spell resistance, scrying

5- Prying Eyes, Rary's Telepathic Bond,

6- Scry Location,

7- Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying

8- Moment of Prescience, Greater Prying Eyes,

9-Foresight,

Anyone else have any ideas not already mentioned?

[Reprimand]

It hasn't been 24 hours so this is a double post (SORRY!).

I still need divination spell ideas not already included on the post above, especially on 1st and 9th level level spells.

Specialist slots are kind of hassle! xD

[Gavinfoxx]

See that's why I suggest NOT being a diviner!

Try this:

http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/FindSpell.php

[Reprimand]

Okay lets assume I'm not a diviner what spells would you recommend for each specialization lets go for 3-4 options for each level for each school.

and what besides evocation and enchantment are worth banning?

[Gavinfoxx]

and what besides evocation and enchantment are worth banning?

Illusion, Necromancy. And I gave you a generalist build and a focused specialist conjurer build... you should look closely at them...

[Reprimand]

I don't want to just cut and paste someone else's character though.

Is it possible to take elven racial sub level 1 and not take the other 2 sub levels? and then is possible to combine that with domain wizard from UA?

What is one of the better domains to take?

[Gavinfoxx]

The idea isnt to copy and paste the character, the idea is to examine the characters and learn from them.

And you can take only the 1st elven racial substitution level if you want. If you want to be a normal elf, look into Grey Elf or Fire Elf. And you can combine that with Domain Wizard, as long as you take them in the right order (conceptually). ;)

[Reprimand]

Is sun elf worth trying it's -2 con but +2 int so there's no second stat loss or gain.

Is the dex really worth gaining that much?

[Gavinfoxx]

You don't need a dex higher than a 14. You need con at least 14, generally. And read post 120 regarding what can be stacked with elven generalist wizard. Sun Elf is fine as well.

[Reprimand]

What is gray hawk method?

is that for determining your starting stats?

And collegeite wizard?

[Gavinfoxx]

What is gray hawk method?

is that for determining your starting stats?

And collegeite wizard?

They are feats. Look at the easy bake wizard spoiler in post 120 of this thread.

[Reprimand]

They are feats. Look at the easy bake wizard spoiler in post 120 of this thread.

OH I'm sorry I was reading the "Ingredient list" I thought it was another ACF.

[Gavinfoxx]

Do you think that finding scrolls and wealth will be difficult in your game?

[Reprimand]

It's a normal wealth game so it shouldn't be too hard. But since I bought two feats for 8k of my WPL somethings might "Disappear" from time to time until the 8k is paid off.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's a normal wealth game so it shouldn't be too hard. But since I bought two feats for 8k of my WPL somethings might "Disappear" from time to time until the 8k is paid off.

In that case I would be a Conjurer, ideally focused specialist Conjurer, instead and get Abrupt Jaunt. You are taking two flaws?

[Reprimand]

Yes, I'm taking forlorn (sack animal familiar for a feat), and I'm considering a second one.

I really don't want to be a conjurer least of all a focused specialist.

I was just going to go elven generalist (one level) and domain caster probably transmutation or abjuration domain to go with character story/reason for getting SF abjuration for getting rid of elf weapon proficiencies (DM approved). Trade my 5th bonus feat for spontaneous divination. We're using the errata'd version, it's still good though.

does that sound good?