Just making sure I have this straight.

[Aasimar]

Nale and Zz'dtri are badly injured, fresh out of greater dispel and fighting a vampire who's probably got a somewhat higher CR than the one they just destroyed?

My personal interpretation is that barring special attacks (or massive damage), teeth don't start flying until you are pretty close to 0 hp. (not that Rich has to follow that, it just seems reasonable)

Granted, Durkon is probably pretty low on spells by now, but he was probably a higher level cleric than Malack.


Oh, and also he's got the staff.

Seems like Nale miscalulated somewhat.

[RMS Oceanic]

Nale and Zz'dtri are badly injured, fresh out of greater dispel and fighting a vampire who's probably got a somewhat higher CR than the one they just destroyed?

My personal interpretation is that barring special attacks (or massive damage), teeth don't start flying until you are pretty close to 0 hp. (not that Rich has to follow that, it just seems reasonable)

Granted, Durkon is probably pretty low on spells by now, but he was probably a higher level cleric than Malack.


Oh, and also he's got the staff.

Seems like Nale miscalulated somewhat.

I think it was more like a calculated but somewhat necessary risk, like Redcloak killing Tsukiko: Failing to act at that juncture would have meant Xykon knows the truth and the plan goes up in smoke. It's a similar thing here: If Nale just waited for Tarquin to return Malack would exact his revenge, so he took the risk of killing him and then trying to sweet talk Durkon. However unlike Redcloak with his admission of offing Tsukiko, it didn't pan out so well.

[TRH]

And keep in mind that Nale has at least one more use of Dimension Door left, so he's not dead yet by any means.

[Diadem]

That remains to be seen.

It's not yet clear that Durkula is fighting to the death here. He may just want to rough them up for being *******s. Alternatively he may realize halfway through the fight that he needs to rescue the order instead.

[Talya]

Seems like Nale miscalulated somewhat.


Similar great miscalculations:

"Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances." ~ Grand Moff Tarkin

"I insist." ~ Calvin Candie

"You think you have power over me? Stupid girl. You'll never stop me. You don't have th—" ~ Caleb

[RMS Oceanic]

Similar great miscalculations:

"Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances." ~ Grand Moff Tarkin

"I insist." ~ Calvin Candie

"You think you have power over me? Stupid girl. You'll never stop me. You don't have th—" ~ Caleb

"Tell Xykon of course!" ~ Tsukiko

[Shhalahr Windrider]

"Tell Xykon of course!" ~ Tsukiko

“I am invincible!” ~ Boris Grishenko



Granted, Durkon is probably pretty low on spells by now, but he was probably a higher level cleric than Malack.

I’m not sure I caught onto anything that evidences that. What makes you think that Durkon was higher level?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Resurrection.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Resurrection.

Resurrection is a 7th level spell. You only have to be 13th level to cast it. You have to be at least 15th level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm) to create mummies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13431505#post13431505) with create undead.

[Henry the 57th]

He took a calculated risk. Malack had to be eliminated, no ifs, ands, or buts about it, if Nale was to secure his own safety. He then tried to sweet talk Durkula. It didn't work, but that doesn't mean Nale himself is dead - Dimension Door is still available to him. So even if Durkula ignores his friends' plight and focuses solely on the Linear Guild, Nale can at least bail.

[Zerter]

Durkon is level 14, Malack was level 12. See the class and level geekery thread for details. Also Dimension Door might not save Nale. Where is he going to go within 800 feet at best? Even if Durkon has no spells available that might help him catch up, he can transform in a dire wolf now. Also, even if Nale manages to escape, he is still in the desert. Would not count out Z saving them with a escape spell though.

[Fish]

As a vampire Durkon also gets Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes, and immunity to the mind-affecting spells that Nale loves so much (eg, Charm Person, Suggestion).

If I'm reading the rules right, Durkon's domination gaze bypasses Z's spell resistance.

Not that I think the scene will be based on rules. I'm just agreeing that, in general, Team Nale is pretty hosed.

[Math_Mage]

Resurrection is a 7th level spell. You only have to be 13th level to cast it. You have to be at least 15th level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm) to create mummies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13431505#post13431505) with create undead.
Malack created those mummies with his staff. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html) That's not a great indication of level, because we don't know what was involved in making the staff. If Malack had sevenths, he wouldn't have spent his last action on a paltry Slay Living. The Giant agrees (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15715754&postcount=56) that sixth level spells are the most Malack has.

[Sir_Leorik]

Similar great miscalculations:

"Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances." ~ Grand Moff Tarkin

"I insist." ~ Calvin Candie

"You think you have power over me? Stupid girl. You'll never stop me. You don't have th—" ~ Caleb

"Oh, how it pains me to do this!"
"Wait! I still function!"
"Wanna bet?" ~ Starscream, Megatron

"Who disrupts my coronation?"
"Coronation, Starscream? This is bad comedy."
"Megatron? Is that you?"
"Here's a hint!" ~ Starscream, Galvatron

[AutomatedTeller]

Durkon can't have many good spells left, either, and he's hardly experienced at his powers.

And, of course, Nale is still under the protection of his potion.

My guess is that very little happens, Nale and Zz'drit go away and Durkon goes to help the Order.

Right now, the most interesting things, to me, is how Durkon integrates with the order and how Tarquin deals with Malack's death.

[EnragedFilia]

"Oh, how it pains me to do this!"
"Wait! I still function!"
"Wanna bet?" ~ Starscream, Megatron

"Who disrupts my coronation?"
"Coronation, Starscream? This is bad comedy."
"Megatron? Is that you?"
"Here's a hint!" ~ Starscream, Galvatron

"You'll be shot for this!" ~ Hans Landa

[Rack]

If Nale was prepared to handle whatever Malack threw at him he should have little difficulty dispelling Durkon's Protection spells and watching him burn.

That said Durkon has all kinds of narrative protection going. Nale is in deep trouble.

[Taelas]

If Nale was prepared to handle whatever Malack threw at him he should have little difficulty dispelling Durkon's Protection spells and watching him burn.

That said Durkon has all kinds of narrative protection going. Nale is in deep trouble.

Nale *spent* what he had prepared on Malack--or rather, Z did. The fact that he could take down one vampire cleric's protection spell does not automatically mean he can take down another one's.

[Rack]

If Nale was prepared to take down Malack he will have needed to keep back contingencies. The reason Malack didn't WoR out of there was it was more dramatic to have him attack Nale instead. That does mean Z should have a few extra spells as a contingency for anything Malack did before he burnt. At the ABSOLUTE minimum he should have an extra GDM or two for Malack's spare Protection from Daylight.

He won't or Durkon will prove to be more prepared than Malack was (but not more than Malack should have been) but if Nale's plan was within one GDM of failing and required Malack to be completely oblivious it shoudn't have worked.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Malack created those mummies with his staff. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html)

Ah, I forgot that. Thanks.

[Shadic]

All the people who are saying they can just dispel Durkon's protection - Remember that the staff itself has more uses.

And I don't think Nale is going to be able to swipe the staff from Durkon. He's likely stronger than Mallack, and he's actually paying attention.

[Fish]

If Nale was prepared to take down Malack he will have needed to keep back contingencies. The reason Malack didn't WoR out of there was it was more dramatic to have him attack Nale instead. That does mean Z should have a few extra spells as a contingency for anything Malack did before he burnt. At the ABSOLUTE minimum he should have an extra GDM or two for Malack's spare Protection from Daylight.
How quickly things change. Yesterday, half the board was convinced that Z and Nale could not possibly be more prepared than Malack. Now we're arguing that Z and Nale are tactical masterminds who cannot lose?

Nale and Z are exactly as prepared as they could afford to be. There's no guarantee of backup plans, contingencies, Plan B, extra spells ... but also no ruling them out. Maybe they're prepared to fight two vampires. Maybe not.

Me, I say "probably not." But there's no evidence, no rationale for saying yes or no either way, with any more than 50% certainty. Flip a quatloo, who knows. Whatever happens next is the story Rich wants to tell, not the ideal munchkin attack scenario.

[Taelas]

If Nale was prepared to take down Malack he will have needed to keep back contingencies. The reason Malack didn't WoR out of there was it was more dramatic to have him attack Nale instead. That does mean Z should have a few extra spells as a contingency for anything Malack did before he burnt. At the ABSOLUTE minimum he should have an extra GDM or two for Malack's spare Protection from Daylight.
Not necessarily. As Nale pointed out himself, he watched Malack spend his second protection from daylight on Durkon, which may be the only thing that made his plan viable.

As for the word of recall, all Z would need to prevent it is a dimensional anchor, which won't help defeat Durkon at all.


He won't or Durkon will prove to be more prepared than Malack was (but not more than Malack should have been) but if Nale's plan was within one GDM of failing and required Malack to be completely oblivious it shoudn't have worked.
Nale did want to attack Malack before Malack could attack him, but he could not possibly have anticipated the perfect situation he ended up in. If that had not happened, Nale would have delayed the double-cross until a more opportune moment -- perhaps even delaying long enough that he could instruct Z to prepare his entire suite of spells to thwart Malack's possible protections.

That the perfect moment arrived and he seized it immediately does not mean that Nale planned for the double-cross to happen anytime soon.

Nale may not be in a situation where he can defeat Durkon.

[sengmeng]

Malack didn't create mummies. He animated mummified corpses. His level was explicitly stated to be lower than Durkon's. Nale may not have prepared to kill Durkon, he just knew that he'd never have a better chance to kill Malack and it would be certain death not to. His choices in #906 were perfect. In #907, not so much.

He didn't foolishly pick a fight with a vampire cleric he couldn't win against, he avoided having a fight with TWO vampire clerics he couldn't win against, and then tried to talk his way out of the other fight. It wasn't great, but he had to kill Malack right then. The fact that he may not have had a plan for Durkon does not mean killing Malack was a mistake.

[Fish]

It depends what you think Nale's plan was.

Plan: wait until Malack has expended both his Pro: Daylight spells. The most likely scenario is "burned his prepared spell to cast a spontaneous infliction." Nale likely knew Malack was loath to have more children.
Resources needed: sunlight, Greater Dispel, potion of Neg Energy Protection, Dimension Door (if GDM fails), Teleport (if Disarm fails).
Time needed: 1 round.
Odds: 2 dice rolls (disarming and dispelling)

Plan: wait until Malack was in the sunlight.
Resources: sunlight, 2 GDMs, potion of Neg Energy Protection, Dimension Door, Teleport.
Time needed: 2 rounds minimum.
Odds: 3 dice rolls (Disarm, consecutive successful dispels)

If you assume that latter was Nale's plan, then it was a riskier plan ... but yes, he would have a backup spell.

[sengmeng]

It depends what you think Nale's plan was.

Plan: wait until Malack has expended both his Pro: Daylight spells. The most likely scenario is "burned his prepared spell to cast a spontaneous infliction." Nale likely knew Malack was loath to have more children.
Resources needed: sunlight, Greater Dispel, potion of Neg Energy Protection, Dimension Door (if GDM fails), Teleport (if Disarm fails).
Time needed: 1 round.
Odds: 2 dice rolls (disarming and dispelling)

Plan: wait until Malack was in the sunlight.
Resources: sunlight, 2 GDMs, potion of Neg Energy Protection, Dimension Door, Teleport.
Time needed: 2 rounds minimum.
Odds: 3 dice rolls (Disarm, consecutive successful dispels)

If you assume that latter was Nale's plan, then it was a riskier plan ... but yes, he would have a backup spell.

I don't think Plan 2 could have been it. I think that if Malack had cast another Protection from Daylight it would essentially hit the "reset" button on his death by sunlight, meaning dispelling it would cause him to die in two more rounds, not one, giving him another action. They took steps to make sure he couldn't cast it again, after all. Maybe Z had another GDM, but their plan was already a "worst case scenario" type of thing to only be tried because they were desperate. Well, Nale was desperate. Not sure of Z's motivations. However, counterspelling is easier than having another GDM prepared. Maybe that was the contingency and Z didn't have to use it because Malack used a spell Nale was immune to.

Edit: is that a belt of gender swapping on your avatar, Fish? On an angry-looking fighter with a short haircut, no less?

[luc258]

If smashing his teeth will prevent teleport this might put a very definitive end to the calls for more Zz'drit character growth. We all know the Nale will run when things go bad.

[Michaeler]

To those arguing that Nale and Z must have a plan that includes dealing with Durkon:

Running away is still a plan to deal with Durkon. Nale may have decided to try his luck on the recruitment thing because he figures they can survive long enough to escape if it doesn't work. The prize here was Malack, Durkon could have been a bonus but as long as they escape with a hp apiece it's still a massive victory.

[EnragedFilia]

I think Nale's plan was more a general "wait for a good chance to dispel Malack's sunlight immunity", and the circumstances just turned out to be better than he had expected (daytime in a desert with no shelter in sight, and Malack specifically said he's used both prepared castings already). If he'd been forced to take a less-ideal opportunity, he would have tried to improvise somehow (maybe a trip or grapple attempt or something to interrupt recasting if a second dispel shot for the counterspell either wasn't available or failed to work.)

[TRH]

If smashing his teeth will prevent teleport this might put a very definitive end to the calls for more Zz'drit character growth. We all know the Nale will run when things go bad.

Are you kidding? Zz'drti hates talking so much, I can hardly imagine him not having Silent Spell. :smallbiggrin:

[137beth]

Are you kidding? Zz'drti hates talking so much, I can hardly imagine him not having Silent Spell. :smallbiggrin:

Z DOES have Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=822237):smalltongue:

[Amphiox]

Similar great miscalculations:

"Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances." ~ Grand Moff Tarkin

"I insist." ~ Calvin Candie

"You think you have power over me? Stupid girl. You'll never stop me. You don't have th—" ~ Caleb

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist--" ~ J. Sedgwick

[Rack]

How quickly things change. Yesterday, half the board was convinced that Z and Nale could not possibly be more prepared than Malack. Now we're arguing that Z and Nale are tactical masterminds who cannot lose?

Nale and Z are exactly as prepared as they could afford to be. There's no guarantee of backup plans, contingencies, Plan B, extra spells ... but also no ruling them out. Maybe they're prepared to fight two vampires. Maybe not.

Me, I say "probably not." But there's no evidence, no rationale for saying yes or no either way, with any more than 50% certainty. Flip a quatloo, who knows. Whatever happens next is the story Rich wants to tell, not the ideal munchkin attack scenario.

Not tactical masterminds who can't lose, but if Nale knew Malack was going to attack him today and prepared a situation to beat him for if Malack expended his spare PfD, ended up in the sun without cover and foolishly blundered into melee range of Nale without keeping a good hold of his staff and made no other actions than a negative energy attack then that is a very specific level of prepared. You can't really argue that if that's what Nale's plan required to succeed then he really was a blundering idiot who couldn't possibly be more prepared than Malack.

From a narrative standpoint there's really no need to show Z has a spare GDM ready for Malack's spare PfD and some way of disarming Malack if Malack was expecting a fight, but if we're to accept that Nale's victory wasn't ludicrously contrived we have to assume he does.

[Taelas]

The point is, Rack, I do not think Nale specifically prepared to beat Malack today -- he simply took advantage of the opportunity when it presented itself.

If he did prepare, then yeah, that's a very specific level of preparation, and an extra greater dispel magic on Z's part doesn't really alter the situation much. He'd still have to somehow a) find Malack without cover, b) disarm him of his staff, and c) ensure that Z didn't need either greater dispel magic against the Order or for some other purpose.

No; it's more likely that he knew Z had a greater magic dispel prepared as a general measure, and he told the drow to get ready to use it to remove the protection from daylight spell when he saw Malack use his second spell on Durkon. He probably planned to ambush him on the way back to Bleedingham, whenever Malack was without cover. Only, the situation presented itself earlier, and he seized the chance to disarm Malack when he came close.

Had he been preparing to take out Malack, I think he would have chosen to do it on a different day than the one where they engage a party of high-level adventurers.

[Kish]

Are you kidding? Zz'drti hates talking so much, I can hardly imagine him not having Silent Spell. :smallbiggrin:
So? He's a wizard, not a sorcerer. He can't spontaneously turn spells he prepared as non-silent spells into silent spells.

[Bulldog Psion]

"The couldn't hit an elephant at this dist--" ~ J. Sedgwick

Hail, fellow military history enthusiast! :smallbiggrin:

[gerryq]

My guess is that very little happens, Nale and Zz'drit go away and Durkon goes to help the Order.
.

I'm not worried for Nale, but I'm a little worried for Z.

[ReaderAt2046]

Malack didn't create mummies. He animated mummified corpses. His level was explicitly stated to be lower than Durkon's. Nale may not have prepared to kill Durkon, he just knew that he'd never have a better chance to kill Malack and it would be certain death not to. His choices in #906 were perfect. In #907, not so much.

He didn't foolishly pick a fight with a vampire cleric he couldn't win against, he avoided having a fight with TWO vampire clerics he couldn't win against, and then tried to talk his way out of the other fight. It wasn't great, but he had to kill Malack right then. The fact that he may not have had a plan for Durkon does not mean killing Malack was a mistake.

No, those are mummies like the monster. Word of Giant confirms it, look in the Index.

[Rack]

The point is, Rack, I do not think Nale specifically prepared to beat Malack today -- he simply took advantage of the opportunity when it presented itself.

I think you've nailed where we differ, knowing Malack was going to turn on him I'd expect it before the return trip to Bleedingham, probably the first night after they resolved the gates. In that case I'd expect him to try and keep as many resources as possible dedicated to taking down Malack today as he wouldn't get a second chance. If that's the case (and I wouldn't be satisfied with Malack's death it weren't) then without Narrative protection Durkon is vulnerable to a Greater Dispel Magic - Counterspell combo. In fact that might be why Z blundered into Melee range, Durkon's best chance is to bludgeon him unconscious before he gets a chance to cast anything.

[Jay R]

I think it was more like a calculated but somewhat necessary risk, like Redcloak killing Tsukiko: Failing to act at that juncture would have meant Xykon knows the truth and the plan goes up in smoke. It's a similar thing here: If Nale just waited for Tarquin to return Malack would exact his revenge, so he took the risk of killing him and then trying to sweet talk Durkon. However unlike Redcloak with his admission of offing Tsukiko, it didn't pan out so well.

Exactly. Nale knew Malack would try to kill him, so he has two options.

Option A: Let Malack attack. Nale has to fight two vampires.
Option B: Attack first, as shown. Nale will have to fight either zero or one vampires.

Even if Durkula doesn't accept his offer, sengmeng is correct that it's still an improved situation for Nale.


Malack created those mummies with his staff. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html)

Good point. And Durkula has it now. Durkula, Nale, and Zz'dtri may all be on the same team a few rounds from now anyway.

[Kish]

No, those are mummies like the monster. Word of Giant confirms it, look in the Index.
But what Word of Giant does not confirm, is that Malack used Create Undead to create them, or that Malack thereby demonstrated himself to be higher level than Rich indicated he was elsewhere.

[greatscott]

Nale making a big deal out of the fact that Malack had already used his backup slot of prot from sunlight suggests that Z did not mem two GDMs.

If Z had 2 spells of GDM, then one only needs to eliminate the staff. This is only the "perfect" time to take out Malack if Z only has one GDM.

If true, then Nale and Z probably can't handle durkon and they need to make tracks...

[LordVader]

Nale making a big deal out of the fact that Malack had already used his backup slot of prot from sunlight suggests that Z did not mem two GDMs.

If Z had 2 spells of GDM, then one only needs to eliminate the staff. This is only the "perfect" time to take out Malack if Z only has one GDM.

If true, then Nale and Z probably can't handle durkon and they need to make tracks...

Agreed. If Nale needed Malack to burn his Protection from Daylights in order to take him down, Nale isn't prepared to fight two vampires.

[Fish]

I don't think Plan 2 could have been it. ...[D]ispelling [his protection] would cause him to die in two more rounds, not one, giving him another action.
Yes. When I counted "two rounds" I only counted the number of rounds it would take to execute their plan flawlessly or to flee, not to stay and slug it out. Plan #2 would indeed be 3 rounds or more if one of their surprise-round actions succeeded but the other failed, or if Malack had an extra (unexpected) Protection spell handy, or if Malack counterspelled, etc.

Edit: is that a belt of gender swapping on your avatar, Fish? On an angry-looking fighter with a short haircut, no less?
Yes, well-spotted. Don't forget the pink boots and chainmail bikini (no wonder the poor guy looks ticked off). You're the first person to mention it, actually. :)

[Fish]

Agreed. If Nale needed Malack to burn his Protection from Daylights in order to take him down, Nale isn't prepared to fight two vampires.
That Nale and Z hadn't planned to fight two vampires is suggested by their tactics:

1. Targeted dispel on Malack (instead of 20-foot area dispel on both vampires).
2. Nale was standing within 20 feet of Malack, preparing to disarm.
3. Nale's defense is a dispellable potion.

That's a one-vampire strategy. If they had planned a two-vampire attack, it probably would have been totally different. For one thing, an area dispel would have dismissed both vampires' protections, and only one vampire had the means to re-cast it.

Further,

4. They try to persuade the vampire cleric not to kill them.

Doesn't sound like they had a backup plan to me. Had they enough resources to smoke Durkula, would they not have done so? I could be wrong. Maybe it was just Durkon's turn, and they had already acted this round.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hail, fellow military history enthusiast! :smallbiggrin:

Sorry to dash your expectations, Bulldog, but I learnt the quote by being a QI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QI) enthusiast (Series 5 episode, probably "Endings", given subject matter. It was the Elephant in the Room bonus answer). John Greene also mentioned it in his video of famous last words.

So it no longer takes a military history enthusiast to know.

GW