Trap Costs

[Vaern]

So, I was thumbing through the traps section of the DMG and noticed that traps can be very expensive. A basic CR1 arrow trap has a market price of 2,000 gp.
Should a DM designing a dungeon concern himself with the cost of traps? Or do these prices exist solely for the benefit of players who are designing their own stronghold?

[unseenmage]

Traps are actually the cheapest method of building magic items that repeatedly cast spells. So much so it's considered cheesey by some.

Unless the party has an Artificer (who can eat magic traps for their delicious craft xp) or a character designed specifically to remove and resell built-in architectural magic items (eg traps) then no, the DM doesn't normally need to concern themselves with the gp cost of traps. It's those CR values that DMs should concern themselves with.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Ah... the power of the spell turrets and customized spell traps...

Most traps are resettable, so are pretty good if you have a stronghold where encounters occur often.
If you want cheaper traps, I suggest the DMG2's booby traps, one time one-minute setup annoyances. They range from blinding powder (flour) to tripwires to minor sickle damage. And mechanical traps are easy to make and have multiple ways to reduce costs; magic traps are more.

[Azoth]

Who doesn't love turning a small unassuming town into a bunch of high level ass whoopers for only a few thousand gold. Auto resetting Summon Monster (pick your number) trap + auto resetting Cure/Heal trap. Nonstop training and xp for everyone!

[eggynack]

Who doesn't love turning a small unassuming town into a bunch of high level ass whoopers for only a few thousand gold. Auto resetting Summon Monster (pick your number) trap + auto resetting Cure/Heal trap. Nonstop training and xp for everyone!
Does that actually work? It seems like the part where you're fighting monsters that you or an ally created is pretty exploitable. I mean, traps as wands is already kinda out there, but this would be yet another thing that casters natively get access to. Structuring controlled monster fighting situations could be pretty efficient from a PC perspective.

[Fyermind]

This has been discussed elsewhere. I think it's sound at least for a few levels. Eventually you should stop gaining significant XP from it. If the spell turret is healing you not the summoned monster, it is significantly reducing challenge and you have the trap on your side. Say you fight a monster from a SMI trap with SMI, faith healing, snake's swiftness, lesser vigor as it's four spells. First it gives you a foe, then heals you, then gives you a free attack, then gives you fast healing and if you get out of range (say a ring on the floor) it will wait until you trigger it again. I am a level 1 warrior. I would get 75 XP for winning this fight on my own (1/2 because it's not even fully fighting me, and 1/2 because I have the trap is my ally). If I can step out of the ring and the monster won't follow me or there is some other way to assure me I won't die, it's 1/2 xp again. These should count as CR reductions to determine if you get XP at all (so it counts as a CR 1/8th if it doesn't pursue you and you don't get XP if you are level 2+.

[Vaern]

I was more concerned with whether a bunch of 1 HD kobolds would be able to afford a trap than the PC reselling the scraps. Realistically, with only a single level in an NPC class, they wouldn't have the money to spend on heavily trapping their homes (which is what kobolds should be doing).

If you want cheaper traps, I suggest the DMG2's booby traps, one time one-minute setup annoyances. They range from blinding powder (flour) to tripwires to minor sickle damage. And mechanical traps are easy to make and have multiple ways to reduce costs; magic traps are more.
Thanks, I'll have to take a look at the DMG2. It sounds like just what I need at the moment. I want a lot of cheap traps to emphasize that kobolds fight like cowards, but at the same time I don't want a dozen or so level 1 NPCs decking out their lair in 15k worth of traps.
I don't have a problem with making the lair itself as big as it needs to be - it's a cave, after all, and kobolds are efficient miners - but I'd like to keep the cost of additions to the lair within a reasonable limit based on their total recommended starting gold.

[Fyermind]

They have skill ranks and bonuses, so they make them themselves, it's also like the only thing kobolds do other than mine. It's totally cool for them to have high value resetting traps as long as they are in a long term home.

[unseenmage]

Does that actually work? It seems like the part where you're fighting monsters that you or an ally created is pretty exploitable. I mean, traps as wands is already kinda out there, but this would be yet another thing that casters natively get access to. Structuring controlled monster fighting situations could be pretty efficient from a PC perspective.

Xp is awarded for overcoming "challenges". If there is no challenge there is no xp reward.

That said, the basic premise is sound. Substituting Planar Binding for Summon Monster could up the threat level some, that way it is a very real and non-dismissable creature that is being asked to "challenge" the subject.

One could even restrict the Bindings to members of the Celestial hosts, one would think Angels would be glad to test the mettle of mortals, for a nominal fee of course.

Barring that, simple mundane traps themselves can be strewn about a town or dungeon complex to "challenge" the residents. How many times does Commoner Joe need to dodge that swinging log trap before he levels up? That depends, how challenging/avoidable is the log trap?

Putting a randomized Teleport Object spell on the thing so it resets and relocates every time could up the threat factor some, but really any kind of grinding will level up a target populace. And with the right contingencies (or even actual Contingencies if there's enough funding) it won't even kill off the subject populace in an endless war of attrition between themselves and their newly threatening environment.

[unseenmage]

I was more concerned with whether a bunch of 1 HD kobolds would be able to afford a trap than the PC reselling the scraps. Realistically, with only a single level in an NPC class, they wouldn't have the money to spend on heavily trapping their homes (which is what kobolds should be doing).

Thanks, I'll have to take a look at the DMG2. It sounds like just what I need at the moment. I want a lot of cheap traps to emphasize that kobolds fight like cowards, but at the same time I don't want a dozen or so level 1 NPCs decking out their lair in 15k worth of traps.
I don't have a problem with making the lair itself as big as it needs to be - it's a cave, after all, and kobolds are efficient miners - but I'd like to keep the cost of additions to the lair within a reasonable limit based on their total recommended starting gold.

FYI, Profession Mining is in Races of the Dragon just for Kobolds.



They have skill ranks and bonuses, so they make them themselves, it's also like the only thing kobolds do other than mine. It's totally cool for them to have high value resetting traps as long as they are in a long term home.

Seconding this, Kobolds are supposed to fight dirty. Otherwise they die in droves.

[eggynack]

This has been discussed elsewhere. I think it's sound at least for a few levels. Eventually you should stop gaining significant XP from it. If the spell turret is healing you not the summoned monster, it is significantly reducing challenge and you have the trap on your side. Say you fight a monster from a SMI trap with SMI, faith healing, snake's swiftness, lesser vigor as it's four spells. First it gives you a foe, then heals you, then gives you a free attack, then gives you fast healing and if you get out of range (say a ring on the floor) it will wait until you trigger it again. I am a level 1 warrior. I would get 75 XP for winning this fight on my own (1/2 because it's not even fully fighting me, and 1/2 because I have the trap is my ally). If I can step out of the ring and the monster won't follow me or there is some other way to assure me I won't die, it's 1/2 xp again. These should count as CR reductions to determine if you get XP at all (so it counts as a CR 1/8th if it doesn't pursue you and you don't get XP if you are level 2+.
That's not even the real problem, I think. I mean, let's just leave aside traps completely for a bit. An allied wizard casts SM whatever, and then you, with your noble and mighty axe, slash it to death. You can just keep doing that, and you can even have your party cleric heal you between bouts. It almost seems like it'd be a regular fight, and should give you the XP anyway, but it's completely controlled, and there's basically no risk. You can even possibly have the wizard summon monsters into holes in the ground, and then you can shoot at them at your leisure. Either that, or he can use distance as a hole of time. The ability to construct encounters, and do so as you wish, seems like it could be exploited for any number of things. That's without even considering crazy repeating traps that give you the power to kill the monster you're fighting.

[Rubik]

I was more concerned with whether a bunch of 1 HD kobolds would be able to afford a trap than the PC reselling the scraps. Realistically, with only a single level in an NPC class, they wouldn't have the money to spend on heavily trapping their homes (which is what kobolds should be doing).Take a look at this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155518) (And not just the first post, either.)

[Vaern]

They have skill ranks and bonuses, so they make them themselves, it's also like the only thing kobolds do other than mine. It's totally cool for them to have high value resetting traps as long as they are in a long term home.
They do get a feat that reduces the effective market price of a trap for the purpose of trapmaking, but it'll still cost 10 NPCs' average starting gold for the materials to make a basic arrow trap.

Unless, of course, the trapmaker also had something like craft (mechanical) and created the trap's parts himself. So let's calculate the final price of a 2,000 gold trap...
The extraordinary trapsmith feat reduces the effective market price of a trap by 50% for kobolds (2,000 -> 1,000)
Crafting an item require 1/3 to market price in raw materials (1,000 -> 333.33)
Using his secondary crafting skill, the kobold crafts the parts to be used as materials for the trap himself for 1/3 the cost (333.33 -> 111.11)
I can do that, right? Stack multiple craft skills to cut the cost down to 1/18 of the market price? :smallamused:

(Also, I'd just price basic pit traps as "free" for them. And for anyone with a shovel and a few days to dig, really.)


That's not even the real problem, I think. I mean, let's just leave aside traps completely for a bit. An allied wizard casts SM whatever, and then you, with your noble and mighty axe, slash it to death. You can just keep doing that, and you can even have your party cleric heal you between bouts. It almost seems like it'd be a regular fight, and should give you the XP anyway, but it's completely controlled, and there's basically no risk. You can even possibly have the wizard summon monsters into holes in the ground, and then you can shoot at them at your leisure. Either that, or he can use distance as a hole of time. The ability to construct encounters, and do so as you wish, seems like it could be exploited for any number of things. That's without even considering crazy repeating traps that give you the power to kill the monster you're fighting.
Summoned monsters don't grant experience. They're considered to be a resource of the creature who cast the spell, and therefore a part of that creature's challenge rating (just like any other spell - you wouldn't gain experience just for being hit with Magic Missile, would you?). You gain experience only for defeating the source of the summoned monster.

[eggynack]

Summoned monsters don't grant experience. They're considered to be a resource of the creature who cast the spell, and therefore a part of that creature's challenge rating (just like any other spell - you wouldn't gain experience just for being hit with Magic Missile, would you?). You gain experience only for defeating the source of the summoned monster.
That's some solid logic right there. By extension, the SM trap thing wouldn't work, because you'd only get the experience from disarming the trap. I think there's something in there about paying for experience points, but it's probably negligible.

[137beth]

So, I was thumbing through the traps section of the DMG and noticed that traps can be very expensive. A basic CR1 arrow trap has a market price of 2,000 gp.
Should a DM designing a dungeon concern himself with the cost of traps? Or do these prices exist solely for the benefit of players who are designing their own stronghold?

No, those prices are for PCs who want traps. Just like the Leadership feat is intended for PCs who want followers--NPCs who you want to give followers to can just have followers. After all, that's pretty much what all the monsters in your dungeon are--followers of whoever built it. But you don't (and shouldn't) try to track how many monsters the dungeon is "allowed" to have, because that is unnecessarily limiting in adventure design.

[unseenmage]

That's not even the real problem, I think. I mean, let's just leave aside traps completely for a bit. An allied wizard casts SM whatever, and then you, with your noble and mighty axe, slash it to death. You can just keep doing that, and you can even have your party cleric heal you between bouts. It almost seems like it'd be a regular fight, and should give you the XP anyway, but it's completely controlled, and there's basically no risk. You can even possibly have the wizard summon monsters into holes in the ground, and then you can shoot at them at your leisure. Either that, or he can use distance as a hole of time. The ability to construct encounters, and do so as you wish, seems like it could be exploited for any number of things. That's without even considering crazy repeating traps that give you the power to kill the monster you're fighting.





Summoned monsters don't grant experience. They're considered to be a resource of the creature who cast the spell, and therefore a part of that creature's challenge rating (just like any other spell - you wouldn't gain experience just for being hit with Magic Missile, would you?). You gain experience only for defeating the source of the summoned monster.


That's some solid logic right there. By extension, the SM trap thing wouldn't work, because you'd only get the experience from disarming the trap. I think there's something in there about paying for experience points, but it's probably negligible.

All of which is why I suggested Planar binding as a replacement for Summon Monster and mundane (but possibly randomly relocating) traps instead of summon traps.

Just sayin'.


On topic. Not all of the Kobolds have to be run-of-the-mill stock MM entry dudes either. Feel free to toss a Kobold Wizard illusionist in there to spice things up.

Traps are cool, bet they're even cooler when they're overlaid with illusions making the pits look like floors and the floors look like pits.

[eggynack]

All of which is why I suggested Planar binding as a replacement for Summon Monster and mundane (but possibly randomly relocating) traps instead of summon traps.

Those both seem to fall under the exact same problem. If there's a trap of planar binding, you get experience as if you defeated an encounter whose CR is the trap's, if you disarm the trap. Just jumping over a log repeatedly isn't enough, because you're not defeating one encounter a number of times. You're merely engaging and reengaging with the same encounter. The trap is the encounter, not the monster that the trap brings in.

[unseenmage]

Those both seem to fall under the exact same problem. If there's a trap of planar binding, you get experience as if you defeated an encounter whose CR is the trap's, if you disarm the trap. Just jumping over a log repeatedly isn't enough, because you're not defeating one encounter a number of times. You're merely engaging and reengaging with the same encounter. The trap is the encounter, not the monster that the trap brings in.

Okay, what if they never disarm the trap?
What if the monster, as a real and true creature called instead of summoned, just keeps triggering the trap itself?

On a different track, remember the point is training, pulled punches and nonlethal combat is the very essence of training. Part of the "deal" built into the Planar Binding can be that the called creature is to train the trainee. Not slay them.

Xp is granted for 'a challenge being overcome' and not all challenges are lethal. By RAW the Summon Monster trap probably works due to the nebulous wording of 'overcome challenge'. I just don't fancy that an unreal creature could grant xp. But everyone sets their limit for cheese at a different point, right?


Again, back on topic, Kobolds are cool. Weave a few Illusion traps into the dungeon to confuse the PCs when they finally fight some reactive illusions commanded by the actual illusionist. They'll think they're dealing with another resetting trap, but it's really an actual opponent. Yay misdirection.

[Vaern]

On topic. Not all of the Kobolds have to be run-of-the-mill stock MM entry dudes either. Feel free to toss a Kobold Wizard illusionist in there to spice things up.

Traps are cool, bet they're even cooler when they're overlaid with illusions making the pits look like floors and the floors look like pits.
I was thinking adept instead, since kobolds with NPC classes have a CR of their character level -3. A level 4 adept would be able to cast 2nd level spells and still only have a CR of 1, while a PC class kobold has a CR equal to its actual level. Adepts don't get much as far as illusions go, though...
Anyway, pits can be sufficiently camouflaged to look like floors or covered in glass or something similar for a similar (non-magical) effect.

[eggynack]

Okay, what if they never disarm the trap?
What if the monster, as a real and true creature called instead of summoned, just keeps triggering the trap itself?

On a different track, remember the point is training, pulled punches and nonlethal combat is the very essence of training. Part of the "deal" built into the Planar Binding can be that the called creature is to train the trainee. Not slay them.

Xp is granted for 'a challenge being overcome' and not all challenges are lethal. By RAW the Summon Monster trap probably works due to the nebulous wording of 'overcome challenge'. I just don't fancy that an unreal creature could grant xp. But everyone sets their limit for cheese at a different point, right?

Then that's all just a component of the single trap. If the planar bound monster planar binds another monster using the trap, it's all just the one trap. You can't planar bind monsters to fight yourself, because that'd be the same as just punching yourself in the face repeatedly and surrendering. I don't think that there's any RAW support for the idea of nonlethal training against a friendly monster for experience points, so a bound creature wouldn't be capable of training you in that way. If you're just fighting the monsters that are summoned by a trap, you're not overcoming the challenge; you're merely mitigating its effects. The only way to overcome the challenge is to defeat the trap, which would likely require disarming, but bypassing the trap would probably work too. You just wouldn't get the experience for defeating the trap a second time if you come back and disarm it. Otherwise, things just get ridiculous. Parties would start toting around slave monsters that they'd beat into unconsciousness, heal, and then beat again. It's not a good road to go down, for it is a road that leads to lunacy of this sort.

[unseenmage]

Then that's all just a component of the single trap. If the planar bound monster planar binds another monster using the trap, it's all just the one trap. You can't planar bind monsters to fight yourself, because that'd be the same as just punching yourself in the face repeatedly and surrendering. I don't think that there's any RAW support for the idea of nonlethal training against a friendly monster for experience points, so a bound creature wouldn't be capable of training you in that way. If you're just fighting the monsters that are summoned by a trap, you're not overcoming the challenge; you're merely mitigating its effects. The only way to overcome the challenge is to defeat the trap, which would likely require disarming, but bypassing the trap would probably work too. You just wouldn't get the experience for defeating the trap a second time if you come back and disarm it. Otherwise, things just get ridiculous. Parties would start toting around slave monsters that they'd beat into unconsciousness, heal, and then beat again. It's not a good road to go down, for it is a road that leads to lunacy of this sort.

I started a new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295925) to discuss this in as it's not precisely what the OP asked for and it greatly interests me.

[Vaern]

Just like the Leadership feat is intended for PCs who want followers--NPCs who you want to give followers to can just have followers. After all, that's pretty much what all the monsters in your dungeon are--followers of whoever built it.
There's a bit of a difference between the two, though. Leadership is for characters who want to strip the free will from a bunch of low-level NPCs, forcing them to perform trivial tasks at no expense to the player. A member of a band of kobolds doesn't need a feat for the rest of them to stick around any more than a player needs a feat for the rest of his party to accompany him on his journeys - regardless of the size of the group, they are contributing equally to the group.
Also, there's nothing stopping a character from buying hirelings as an alternative to Leadership. A field provisions box (MIC) magically provides food and water for fifteen people per day. The price of trail rations is 5 silver pieces per day. The cost of a cheap trained hireling is 3 silver pieces per day. With just one of these magical trinkets, it would be easy to bribe a dozen starving mercenaries with food.