This thread is now complete if someone could lock it please.

[Christine Daae]

Hello playground, I have recently joined the fourms and will be playing my my first PBP game ever once the chapter wraps up the current players are on. This is my build so far. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=623341) My problem is that I like the idea of my character, but I feel later on to follow its theme, and her goddess it would seem like a dizzit ripoff by taking Dervish which was suggested to me by Dantiesilva, one of my friends on the sight.

My original idea was taking one more level of Paladin of freedom before going into holy liberator, but soon realized I would have all those smites and no way to use them as they take a standard action to use which denies me fullattacking. Sure I could use it on a charge with chagrining smite( will be taking it next level) , but besides the few times I can charge or get to get an AoO in I would still have plenty of smites left over.

And before DMM is suggested my friend is already a DMM cleric and it would not fit with the theme of the build like Bladesinger, or Dervish would. Should I just go Dervish and forget what people think, or should I reconsider my build? Thank you for your time.

Allowed books

Player's Handbook 1&2
Dungeon's Masters Guide
Complete series +Mage
Unearthed Arcane
Magic item Condominium
Spell Condominium

[eggynack]

The whole thing might be worth some reconsideration. On a basic level, you're going to be consistently overpowered in every aspect of your character by the party cleric, which is an unhappy place to be in my opinion. There're a few major aspects of the build that are problematic, like the fact that you're a drow, and the other fact that you're a paladin (which is all of the build, hence the problem), and there are minor aspects that should probably be poked at if you seek to be successful on this build's terms. For example, what's up with the long sword and ultra-light armor? You have access to two handed weapons, which are just better, as well as access to heavy armor. Also, you seem to have 15 strength for some reason, despite that likely being the build's key stat. For another basic thing, you have a cloistered cleric, which is the right way to go in those terms, and you have neither the knowledge domain, nor knowledge devotion. I could probably keep listing things, but it all adds up to the build being rather problematic, especially in a game that also has a well built tier one class.

Edit: Just making a note here, so that it's clear how problematic things could end up being. It's entirely possible that the cleric will end up better than you at fighting, and be that way before he casts spells. Seriously, the cleric is getting an iterative, and you are not. It's also highly probable that he will wear heavy armor, so the cleric will likely have higher AC than you in his natural state. He could also be picking melee oriented domains, and continue to dominate. Now, consider this in the actual context of the game, where he does have spells, and they last all day. It's a sad state of affairs.

[AlanBruce]

Greetings! I am the DM and I would like to make a suggestion that Dantiesilva and I came up with.

wiz2/duskblade4/abjurant champion5

You won't be a divine caster, but a gish, and a very good one at that, given your stats. Later, you can even go the Ultimate Magus route, since you would have prepared (wizard) and spontaneous (duskblade) casting.

[eggynack]

Greetings! I am the DM and I would like to make a suggestion that Dantiesilva and I came up with.

wiz2/duskblade4/abjurant champion5

You won't be a divine caster, but a gish, and a very good one at that, given your stats. Later, you can even go the Ultimate Magus route, since you would have prepared (wizard) and spontaneous (duskblade) casting.
There's a logic to putting together a gish build, but I'd likely rather have one with infinitely fewer lost caster levels. I'm pretty sure that there are good ways to put a gish together that accomplishes that. Also, if a paladin is the central figure of this piece, sorcadins are a thing of some kind. I'm not super experienced with either topic, but I believe that I've seen better arrangements than the one you've presented.

Edit: Found a whole thread on the topic hereabouts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195109). It's a thing worth looking into.

[Christine Daae]

@ eggynack I understand your questioning on why I would have ultra light armor and a longsword but if you look at my goddess you may get your answer right there. Add in the fact she is a drow, why would she wear heavy armor that makes lots of noise?

As for being overpowered well he is a male, he should be the frontliner in her eyes, why would a Drow Priestess run in front with the common foot soldiers? She would wait, debuff, and then go in finishing of stranglers. Get flanking here, loop of head there.

As For being a Drow and being a Paladin of freedom I do not see where the problem would be. It does not go against any requirements or restrictions. And smite looks really good. Along with divine grace keeping my Saves on the same power level with the other party members.

Strength is so low for obvious reasons really, casting stat, wisdom. Smite and turn built on Charisma. Health based on Constitution. My AC on dexterity. So my lowest stat being strength is the obvious choice in my eyes. Especially saying next level I would be taking chagrining smite and adding +10 damage to my damage output when I decided to join a battle and flank.

Lastly Knowledge domain I complete forgot and if you read what I posted for allowed sources Knowledge devotion is in Complete Champion, not in any of the allowed sources.

[Christine Daae]

Thank you Alan, I am happy you and Dantie saw this and tried to help me.

As for Paladin being the central of this build it is not, I just like being a true follower of my deity and wanted to follow the theme of it. I do not HAVE to be a paladin.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The problem i'm seeing is that you have a bunch of classes with basically no synergy between them when you're already crippled by LA.

Cleric, Paladin of Freedom and Holy Liberator all have their own casting progression. None of them stack with each other.

First, you should try to lower your LA. Assuming you're a drow for flavor, PGtF has lesser Drow (0 LA). That alone will give you a serious boost.

If your DM allows you to use Paladin of Freedom abilities with Prestige Paladin (from UA) you can keep the flavor while being much more effective with a simple Cleric 5/Prestige Paladin 2/(PrC that increases casting) X build.
You'll want to skip Holy Liberator in that case because it really doesn't add anything to your build.

Another option would be a Ruby Knight Vindicator if your dm allows reflavoring to your goddess.

[eggynack]

@ eggynack I understand your questioning on why I would have ultra light armor and a longsword but if you look at my goddess you may get your answer right there. Add in the fact she is a drow, why would she wear heavy armor that makes lots of noise?

As for being overpowered well he is a male, he should be the frontliner in her eyes, why would a Drow Priestess run in front with the common foot soldiers? She would wait, debuff, and then go in finishing of stranglers. Get flanking here, loop of head there.

As For being a Drow and being a Paladin of freedom I do not see where the problem would be. It does not go against any requirements or restrictions. And smite looks really good. Along with divine grace keeping my Saves on the same power level with the other party members.

Strength is so low for obvious reasons really, casting stat, wisdom. Smite and turn built on Charisma. Health based on Constitution. My AC on dexterity. So my lowest stat being strength is the obvious choice in my eyes. Especially saying next level I would be taking chagrining smite and adding +10 damage to my damage output when I decided to join a battle and flank.

Lastly Knowledge domain I complete forgot and if you read what I posted for allowed sources Knowledge devotion is in Complete Champion, not in any of the allowed sources.
I'm mostly talking about things from a power level standpoint, rather than from a flavor based one. The problem with being a drow and a paladin of freedom is that drow are pretty terrible, and paladins are also that. It has nothing to do with asynergy in terms of background. I don't really see how the deity would stop you from wearing using effective weapons and armor. The reason she would wear heavy armor and use a greatsword is because not doing those things is a factor which compounds the character's ineffectiveness. That's really where all of this is coming from. You're ostensibly trying to construct a character who's good at melee stuff, and it doesn't look like she is. Also, it looks like complete champion is allowed, because you've listed the completes among the allowed sources. If this is inaccurate, you should probably revise your list.

Anyways, on a more constructive note, have you considered playing a bard? You apparently want to be a dancing person in light armor who sometimes casts spells, and that's like infinite bard. She's even chaotic good for maximum bardishness. You could basically turn all of the aspects of this character that are bad, into aspects of that character that are good. Hell, if you can negotiate for snowflake wardance to be allowed despite the lack of book access, you can turn longsword wielding dancing into an asset. It seems eminently possible that your character was always a bard at heart. You should still likely ditch the drow aspect, or at least find a way to play it without LA. LA is a bad thing in general, especially when it's not getting you any real class features.

[Christine Daae]

@sleepyphoenixx I am drow for the Flavor, and it is the KEY to my build. I asked for the fix in PGtF and was told no. Alan has been very lenient with me including changing Lolth touched to that of my goddess. So when he says no to something I don't ask for it again. I do however understand that no LA would be better though.

As for Paladin of freedom and prestige paladin Dantie (DMM cleric) asked for this as he wanted to go barbarian next level and was told no, so it would not be an option for me either.

As for the Ruby Knight as I said no books outside the sources I named. Alan does not consider Complete champion a complete as if you buy the box set it does not come with it only Adventure, Arcane, Divine, and Warrior do.

@eggynack As I stated in my original post I am not looking for power over Flavor, but Flavor. The reasons I use what I do is that it is the closet I can be to my goddess's favored weapon without taking another feat.

I have considered playing a bard but as their is a petal bard named violet joining the game same time I do it is pointless. Also as I said above, only source material.

[eggynack]

@eggynack As I stated in my original post I am not looking for power over Flavor, but Flavor. The reasons I use what I do is that it is the closet I can be to my goddess's favored weapon without taking another feat.

I have considered playing a bard but as their is a petal bard named violet joining the game same time I do it is pointless. Also as I said above, only source material.
The issue with prioritizing flavor over power at all costs is that you end up sacrificing flavor too, in the end. I mean, unless the flavor of your character is being really bad at most things, the ultimate character won't actually match your vision of her. You said that you want to debuff folks, and then flank enemies, but you seem to have no actual class features that incentivize that behavior. You have nearly no debuffs, and none of the ones you will have will end up very good.

Instead of asking how you can fit this incredibly narrow character design, ask what you actually want your character to do. It's an important question to ask, when you get down to it, because it informs what you're actually going to do during the game. If you want to stand in the back and debuff folks, or flank enemies, or sword people to death, or just dance around all day, actually build a character that can do those things. Also, there's nothing pointless about building a character of the same class as another character. If you want to build a bard, you should just build a bard. If you're not going to sacrifice your vision of your character for power, why would you sacrifice your vision of your character for what other people are playing? It's not too hard to build two bards that are specialized in different areas anyway.

[nedz]

Strength is so low for obvious reasons really, casting stat, wisdom. Smite and turn built on Charisma. Health based on Constitution. My AC on dexterity. So my lowest stat being strength is the obvious choice in my eyes. Especially saying next level I would be taking chagrining smite and adding +10 damage to my damage output when I decided to join a battle and flank.

You have already worked out, as stated in an earlier post, that Smite is fairly worthless. Without DMM: Turn is situational at best, and you have a cleric in the party. Charisma could easily be a dump stat. BTW 3.5 favours offence over defence and since you are trying to be a melle character with minor spellcasting your stat order should be Str > Con > Dex > Wis > Cha; unless you fix the spellcasting or find some use for the Cha.

You character flavour seems to be that Drow males are weak, and your build choices seem to support this.

[Christine Daae]

@Nedz My original idea was working off of chagrining smite, but after looking at how many smites I would have with no was to quicken them and full attack it became a problem. Though at the same time I wanted to take into account everything that was Eilistraee (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020503a) and drow. Drow females are naturally clerics or paladins from what I have gathered. And only the lesser houses go paladin (even that seems a rarity).

I was going to use the turns to fuel divine feats like Divine might, and Divine shield (though if there were better ones I would take them) So that I could gain a +4 bonus on damage for each turn attempt i invested into it, making charging smite a much more appealing looking way to go. PA, Charging smite, Divine might, Charm domain for +4 on cha (making my attack higher meaning more to fuel PA), cleave, Great cleave.
And that was what I was going for, that female drow were the superior sex, as well as race. Even though she no longer followed Lolth the teachings (and by teachings i mean snake head whips) of Lolth are so ingrained into her mind on this that no matter what she can not seem to let it go. I'm sure I could move a few stats around and make her more melee focused, as the +6 to strength and constitution were a great help.

Would Wizard 1/Duskblade 3/Paldain 2(for divine grace)/Abjurant champion 5/UM 9 be a better bet? Or would the fact that BAB=caster level be a bad move for this idea?

[Renen]

What people here are trying to say, is that while flavor is fine, you will be so weak you wont be able to do anything. Like those 2 lvls of paladin in your last build option. If you want paladin flavor, go with only one level, because paladin has 0 synergy with the other listed classes, and you REALLY dont want to have lost caster levels.

[nedz]

I can do a solid faux paladin based on Duskblade with other gods, e.g. Pelor, but not with Eilistraee because Eilistraee's domains are unhelpful.

I think Eilistraee favours different character concepts.

[Crake]

if you wanna go a gish-type character with a religious touch, the sorcadin, as eggy suggested, isnt a bad idea

The generic build is paladin 2/sorc 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Overall you have 18 sorc casting and 16 bab, cha to saves (which is good since it's your main casting stat so it'll be high) and both paladin and sacred exorcist have good religious ties. With spellsword 1, you get 10% ASF reduction, so you can wear a mithril chain shirt without problem, and with abjurant champion you can swift cast the shield spell for +9 AC ontop of that.

Edit: IIRC, you need to either be human w/ 10 int or 12+ int to be able to meet the skill requirements for this build though.

[Christine Daae]

Well I really liked her Charm domain (Though not as good as the strength domain by a long shot), and was thinking about Drow for Lighting reflexes as well Domain wise.

@Crake How are you getting into a class that needs you to cast Divine spells with no ability to do so?

[eggynack]

@Crake How are you getting into a class that needs you to cast Divine spells with no ability to do so?
It doesn't look like sacred exorcist requires any divine casting to operate. That's approximately the gish build I was thinking of, by the way. Sorcadins are pretty sweet, though pretty obviously worse than being a standard full caster. Still, if you want to debuff folks, and then have the capacity to stab them, a gish is a solid bet. I do still like the bard option though, because seriously, dancing is right there in the character description. I don't think I've ever seen a character that was so defined around bardic character traits, and then wasn't a bard.

[Christine Daae]

It requires you being able to cast one of 2 spells both are divine spells.

[eggynack]

It requires you being able to cast one of 2 spells both are divine spells.
It looks like dismissal is a 5th level wizard/sorcerer spell to me. Even if it weren't, Eilistraee has the good domain on her list, so you could use arcane disciple to pick up dispel evil. The former seems like a far less roundabout way to go about things, but the point is that dismissal is a non-issue, and dispel evil is a solvable issue.

[Grayson01]

If Eilistraee is your deity there is no reason you can't make Dex your dump Stat and bumb up STR and wear heavy armor. Eilistraee's lay people werenot stealthy till she takes her brotehrs portfolilo

[DMVerdandi]

Honestly, firstly I would fight harder for the lesser drow. Why must the drow be bogged down with the crazy level adjustment, when you can play 900 other types of elf? Bump that. It's not like you guys are actually playing a written setting anyway, generally most people just end up kitchen sinking stuff. Yeah, I am sure you can do it. Just make the case that it is really kind of unfair, and unbalanced, because the first books didn't have as much hindsight. They made a lesser drow for a reason. Because the regular one is tin-foil hats.

Secondly, you may just want to play a cleric. A paladin is simply a watered down cleric anyway. There is literally no reason to actually play one. They don't get their powers from deities until 4e. Before that, they get them from expressly tight ALIGNMENTS. Yes, paladins, get their powers from alignments.Specifically one at a time too. (Lawful good, Lawful evil, Chaotic good.)

Interestingly enough, where can a cleric get their powers from?
Deities.
Concepts and schools of thought
ALIGNMENTS(Any you choose).

Trust us when we tell you that the extra BAB and weapon proficiencies are not worth it. Play a cleric.


Furthermore, if you want more connection to being a drow, use the spontaneous domain ACF, and choose the drow domain. Now you can trade in spontaneous cure wounds, for domain spells of the same level!


After all that, if sword dancing is your fancy, take up weapon finesse, and grab yourself an elven court blade. It's like a great sword that you can use weapon finesse on. Buff Dex and Wis. And get a monks belt, and other assorted magic items that boost your mobility and power. Have them all designed like belly dancer clothing.


Dance around and slice people to pieces.

[Menzath]

Dance around and slice people to pieces.

I always favor the Snowflake war dance feat for that, but that book is not on the "table" this time around.
If your group already has the divine covered and you want to be an "up front" with some casting everyone favors the wildshape ranger for that, especially if you can get the vermin shapes from Duststorm or whatnot, but that's also not on table.
Next would be Duskblade, spell selection is a little meh, but other than that pretty darn good.

My -Favorite- has always been the Battle Sorcerer variant in UA (You have that one!) coupled with Arcane strike and abjurant champion it becomes pretty nasty. And just for flavor/utility I always like to toss in argent savant(A highly overlooked class in Complete Arcane).
Ends up being a nice gish in my opinion, just a little hard on spell slots for intense fights if you don't use your spells like a wizard should(I.E. CC).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Meh. Chaotic Good drow is going to get you Drizz't comparisons no matter what you do. If your concept wants dervish, take it and to heck with what other people say. If you roleplay it well, it shouldn't be an issue.

As an alternate holy warrior, you could take straight cleric into Prestige Paladin.


It requires you being able to cast one of 2 spells both are divine spells.
As eggynack said, Dismissal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dismissal.htm)is a Sorcerer/Wizard spell. The biggest issue with the build is trying to hit the skill requirements, I found-- none of your classes are overflowing with skill points, and you usually wind up having to buy cross-class ranks to boot. (I ran one recently, and I had to go human and take Able Learner to make it work) It's easier to go into Eldrich Knight after finishing Abjurant Champion, but you lose another caster level that way, and your 9th level spells go with it.

On the other hand, the fluff comes together well if you don't look at the classes as discrete entities-- you're a holy warrior who got arcane magic from celestial ancestry!-- you get amazing saves, Abjurant Champion is an all-round great class (free quickened buffs! free quicked dispels!), and you get all your iteratives and 9th level spells.

[Christine Daae]

Thank you everyone I have...changed my build slightly

Wizard 1/Paladin of freedom 5( for charging smite and divine grace)/Abjurant champion/ The knight thing from Dungeons masters guide 7. Does this look better over all then my original build?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wizard 1/Paladin of freedom 5( for charging smite and divine grace)/Abjurant champion/ The knight thing from Dungeons masters guide 7. Does this look better over all then my original build?
You get more synergy if you use sorcerer, since you need Charisma for both your magic and your paladin powers. Unless you really want the mount, I wouldn't take that many paladin levels, either-- caster levels >> mundane levels.

[Christine Daae]

I am trading in the mount for charging smite I said above. +2damage/Paladin level on smite attacks, and if I fail the attack roll I do not waste a smite. It makes the few you do have count.

[eggynack]

Thank you everyone I have...changed my build slightly

Wizard 1/Paladin of freedom 5( for charging smite and divine grace)/Abjurant champion/ The knight thing from Dungeons masters guide 7. Does this look better over all then my original build?
It's a thing of some kind. You should probably just go with something like what Crake posted. I mean, it's about as good as you can do with a paladin based gish build. The real goal is to get as much casting as theoretically possible, and maintain a high degree of melee potency. Charging smite is slightly nice, but it's nowhere near as good as three caster levels. I don't even think that build uses any non-allowed sources, and it maintains your general paladin nature. I mean, you can probably replace the sorcerer with wizard if you want, but the whole point is charisma to saves based synergy. It's pretty sweet in general. I don't think you lose anything by making the paladin into a paladin of freedom either.

[DMVerdandi]

Wait... What are the reasons that you want the paladin specifically?

If it's for Fluff, then fine, but make SURE you are playing a paladin, otherwise it's a waste.

If it's for crunch, then you are just choosing wrong.
I mean, Clerics can get smite (Although I don't find it worth trading up turn/rebuke), so what else would you pick it for?
Lay on hands? Cure spells.
A mount? SUMMON ONE.
Buffing charisma? take dynamic priest.
Like, there is NO reason to pick one over a cleric. They have like 5 unique spells, compared to 3 spell levels they will never reach.

It's a waste of time, refluff something better, if you really want advise.


Or if you are going to play a paladin, commit to it.
Playing a paladin gish is kind of meh in the long run. One only needs the abjurant champion to gish at a basic level, and an elf wizard can do it without any other class whatsoever by tenth level.

Cha to saves is okay, but not worth actually even taking the paladin levels. those godforsaken codes of conduct.:smallmad:




I would say, for YOUR convenience, Pick one.
Cleric.(:smallbiggrin:)
Wizard(:smallcool:)
Paladin(:smallfurious:)