How to design an encounter with overpowered enemies? [Archive]

Dlkpi

2013-08-03, 11:41 AM

I'm looking to give my party a preliminary encounter with a dragon whose CR is way above the current APL (they'll fight it again when they're higher level) and I'm trying to figure out the best mechanic to do so without turning the encounter into a bloodbath. I've got a couple of powerful NPCs hanging around to "rescue them" from the dragon if they "win" the encounter, but I'm trying to figure out an appropriate win condition.

So far, I can think of a couple ways to run this: fight it until it gets to X% of its total health, survive the fight for X rounds, or just tweak the dragon to reduce its CR to something appropriate for the party, and then have it "run away" when they fully deplete its hit points.

And if I go with one of the former methods, how should I determine an appropriately challenging but not impossible value for X?

Aharon

2013-08-03, 11:47 AM

Why do they fight the dragon in the first place? If they are not forced to for some reason, and the fight doesn't have a deeper meaning for the dragon, you could just let them fight until they realize they are in way over their heads and allow them to flee. This works well if the dragon guards some place and doesn't wish to leave it, even if it were only for the short time needed to finish the PCs off.

Pokonic

2013-08-03, 12:02 PM

Another method:

The dragon seems to be a major antagonistic entity, yes? Perhaps, to offset the high CR, it might just hang around while weak minions of his try and hunt down the PC's while it just hangs around in the "center stage" if you will. Presumably, when the party kills the minion leader who's really been acting as the boss for this battle, the dragon tries and take a few magical mid-air pot shots at the party before being chased off by the NPC's.

prufock

2013-08-03, 12:12 PM

Rather than have NPCs there to drag them out, a better option might be to have some sort of "get out of jail free card." For example, a tight tunnel that the dragon can't get through, a teleportation circle or object that teleports them all away if the going gets rough. This will make the escape less of a deus ex machina, which in my experience players don't appreciate. The goal of the encounter, then, should be to survive and escape, not kill the dragon.

A second bit of advice is to use the Worf effect. You have those powerful NPCs sitting around, rather than using them to save the PCs, have them engage the dragon, and get utterly curbstomped.

falloutimperial

2013-08-03, 12:17 PM

I don't have a suggestion, but a warning. Players often don't realize when they should flee and more often than not will fight a clearly superior enemy to their deaths.

Aharon

2013-08-03, 12:21 PM

I don't have a suggestion, but a warning. Players often don't realize when they should flee and more often than not will fight a clearly superior enemy to their deaths.

The game has int and wis dc 5 checks for that :smalltongue: Their characters may realize it when the players don't...

ericgrau

2013-08-03, 12:31 PM

Have the dragon fight some NPCs while after some goal, and at that time make it so he has little motivation to waste time with the PCs. Once he has what he wants, he leaves. Not much for the PC's to win but they can heal the NPCs afterwards and get an idea of the dragon's strength at least. The dragon may simply have no reason to stay and not care if he kills more people or not, or there may be an army on its way giving the dragon a time crunch. Dragons are fast but not very maneuverable, so escape is easier then aerial combat.

Alternatively the PCs could actually prevent the dragon from reaching the goal in time (if successful), and then the Calvary comes in to chase off the dragon and rescue the battered PCs. Even if the PCs fail, snatching the goal before the army arrives is a higher priority to the dragon than finishing off the dying PCs. He may try to get it instead of attacking even while some or all PCs are healthy and active.

Then you have a plausible plot reason for the Calvary to literally arrive and save the PCs, while providing a goal that is possible to attain.

Keld Denar

2013-08-03, 12:46 PM

Give the players some leveled up Energy Protection potions of whatever flavor the dragon is. Hit them with a breath weapon for like, 70-80ish damage, eating up most of the protection value and make them realize that the next breath is gonna dip into their HP totals...possibly very deeply or even fatally. That gives them 1d4 rounds to GTFO before they get their faces melted in spectacular fashion. A breath weapon isn't a dragon's only weapon, but it is significant.

Also, keep in mind the Fear aura. The DCs for a dragon who's CR is significantly higher than the APL is gonna probably make 1/2+ of the party run away right off the bat.

Deophaun

2013-08-03, 12:57 PM

I don't have a suggestion, but a warning. Players often don't realize when they should flee and more often than not will fight a clearly superior enemy to their deaths.
I have the opposite warning: DMs often don't realize that PCs can hit well above their weight through creativity or just dumb luck. I know parties that have emerged victorious against CR +10 and higher encounters. An single unlucky 1 on a saving throw could kill your dragon. So, my suggestion is, if you have any plans for the dragon sticking around, don't let the PCs engage him at all.

Aharon

2013-08-03, 01:32 PM

I have the opposite warning: DMs often don't realize that PCs can hit well above their weight through creativity or just dumb luck. I know parties that have emerged victorious against CR +10 and higher encounters. An single unlucky 1 on a saving throw could kill your dragon. So, my suggestion is, if you have any plans for the dragon sticking around, don't let the PCs engage him at all.

Yes... One Moment, you worry about a TPK, the next the Party is celebrating. (Drow poison DC may only be 13, but nat 1...)

Traab

2013-08-03, 02:17 PM

Is the dragon high enough level to be a spellcaster capable of say, teleporting the party out against its will? Or at least teleporting itself? I suggest using those big strong npcs as sacrificial lambs. They get to see them taken down with relative ease while they are trapped outside the battle, then the dragon mocks them as too weak to even waste time killing and either sends them away or leaves. Big teary scene as the npcs die from their wounds, swear vengeance, go off and adventure until high level enough to hunt him down. Boom.

Lord Vukodlak

2013-08-03, 02:52 PM

Play up the dragon's arrogance, it knows the PC's aren't a legitimate threat so it pulls its punches. You also could include a red-shirt of relatively equal power to the PC's to be pulverized to demonstrate that they're out matched. What level are the player's and what age category is a dragon? This can make a difference as to what abilities are available.

Also, keep in mind the Fear aura. The DCs for a dragon who's CR is significantly higher than the APL is gonna probably make 1/2+ of the party run away right off the bat. Not unless the party is 4HD or less. Frightful presence can only shaken PC's of 5HD.

NichG

2013-08-03, 03:12 PM

In fact, if you want a villain to be untouchable for any length of time, don't actually give the players enough information to find them or know exactly who they are (this includes limiting information that could be used to Scry, Discern Location, or Circle Dance). Players generally will cut the Gordian knot when it comes to prolonged conflicts. If there's an invasion fleet with six waves of ships, they'll ignore the fleet and let their country get invaded while they teleport to the capital of the other country and try to assassinate their emperor (pretty much what actually happened in one of my campaigns).

Lord Vukodlak

2013-08-03, 04:43 PM

Spuddles

2013-08-03, 08:54 PM

Have the Dragon in charge of a bunch of minions that just flood the PCs as he stays back and laughs at them. Make him very annoying and hateful and also shoot an occasional high level spell at them if they look like they're doing well.

Yes... One Moment, you worry about a TPK, the next the Party is celebrating. (Drow poison DC may only be 13, but nat 1...)

Luckily Dragons are immune to sleep effects.

Crasical

2013-08-03, 08:55 PM

Look at the dragon you're using, then look at what the CR of a dragon that would be a non-OP but challenging encounter for the PCs would be. Have two sheets, one for the true power of the monster and one for the 'I don't care' version that's CR appropriate. Whenever the PC's attack or cast spells, apply their attacks to both sheets. When the weaker dragon dies, you know they've overcome an appropriate challenge and get exp for the encounter, and how much 'real' damage they did to the BBEG dragon, which may not be a lot depending on how much higher the dragon's AC/DR is when it's exerting itself.

Aharon

2013-08-04, 03:08 AM

Have the Dragon in charge of a bunch of minions that just flood the PCs as he stays back and laughs at them. Make him very annoying and hateful and also shoot an occasional high level spell at them if they look like they're doing well.

Luckily Dragons are immune to sleep effects.

Hm, that's for the DM to decide. Unconcsiousness (which is caused by the poison), is functionally the same as sleep (=> helpless), but not linguistically. I would rule the immunity to sleep effects only triggers for effects that specifically say they cause sleep (Sleep, Deep Slumber, Symbol of Sleep, similar monster abilities), but your mileage may vary. To be unaffected by the poison, you would need poison immunity instead, IMO.

Lord Vukodlak

2013-08-04, 03:13 AM

Hm, that's for the DM to decide. Unconcsiousness (which is caused by the poison), is functionally the same as sleep (=> helpless), but not linguistically. I would rule the immunity to sleep effects only triggers for effects that specifically say they cause sleep (Sleep, Deep Slumber, Symbol of Sleep, similar monster abilities), but your mileage may vary. To be unaffected by the poison, you would need poison immunity instead, IMO.

Elves are immune to magical sleep effects, this point comes up in the description of drow poison which induces unconsciousness, they point out that because its not a magical effect elves and drow aren't immune to it. If it wasn't a sleep effect they could simply say its not a sleep effect rather then say "its not magic"
So Drow poison is called out as being a non-magical sleep effect which means dragons who are immune to all sleep effects would likewise be immune.

Berenger

2013-08-04, 03:32 AM

The dragon isn't really interested in the death of the party. He's teaching his offspring to hunt and the characters are the designated chew toy for todays lesson. If the lesson goes south and the party manages to actually hurt one of his children, he will shoo them away rather angrily but don't give pursuit because he is busy scolding the youngster dragon.

molten_dragon

2013-08-04, 05:36 AM

I'm looking to give my party a preliminary encounter with a dragon whose CR is way above the current APL (they'll fight it again when they're higher level) and I'm trying to figure out the best mechanic to do so without turning the encounter into a bloodbath. I've got a couple of powerful NPCs hanging around to "rescue them" from the dragon if they "win" the encounter, but I'm trying to figure out an appropriate win condition.

Don't do that. Throwing your players up against an overwhelming opponent and then having your Mary Sue NPCs come save the day is just going to piss them off. If you want to throw them up an enemy too powerful to beat, that's fine, but come up with a more original way to do it.

Aharon

2013-08-04, 06:27 AM

Elves are immune to magical sleep effects, this point comes up in the description of drow poison which induces unconsciousness, they point out that because its not a magical effect elves and drow aren't immune to it. If it wasn't a sleep effect they could simply say its not a sleep effect rather then say "its not magic"
So Drow poison is called out as being a non-magical sleep effect which means dragons who are immune to all sleep effects would likewise be immune.

Then we would be back at square one, since the wording for elves in the MM is:
Immunity to sleep spells and effects.
and the wording for Dragons is
All Dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects.

So either both refer only to magical effects, and both are vulnerable to the poison because of this, or the poison doesn't cause a sleep effect and the Explanation for why the poison works on elves and drow is wrong.

As my antagonist was a mind flayer and not a dragon, and the general point that a natural 1 might take out even very dangerous opponents remains the same (Substitute Charm Monster, for example), I propose we don't derail this thread any further and either make another thread or discuss the question via PM.

NichG

2013-08-04, 04:04 PM

The Nat 1 thing is why its a lot easier to have something like an overpowered spellcaster who wants some particular unrelated thing and won't let people get in their way rather than something like a dragon. The spellcaster can use reversible take-down effects to take out PCs in one shot without killing them outright, and can be built with enough gimmicks that Nat 1's versus saves are not an issue (some combination of feats, SR, Death Ward, Spell Immunity, Contingency, whatever).

For the dragon, I'd say try to use the same principle. Don't make him directly opposed to the party, but instead give him some ancillary goal within a battle that the party is fighting, so he swoops in, interferes as much as he needs to for his goal, and immediately leaves. This also makes sense if, e.g., the entire battlefield united would pose a threat to him even if the individual sides don't - he doesn't want to fight everyone, just get his trinket and go. The result might be e.g. that the party is fighting with some merc company over someone they were paid to retrieve, the dragon swoops in, breath-attacks the field (injuring both PCs and mercs badly), grabs a bracelet from the kidnapped person, and flies off.

Eldariel

2013-08-04, 04:34 PM

General-purpose tools for introducing high-powered "big bads" early:
- Big enemy fights vs. big PC ally while PCs fight big enemy's mooks. PCs realize they're outta their league, go on a quest to get the legendary artifact of legendary power or ask for help or whatever and avoid the big enemy who might or might not kill the big ally.
- Big enemy doesn't consider players hostiles initially. Maybe players masquerade as someone else, maybe hostilities only trigger later, or whatever; perhaps the Dragon just isn't interested in trying to kill these people at this moment.
- The encounter is about hiding/escaping/diplomacying your way out. There are many ways to distract in the game so given a scenario where they aren't in an entirely enclosed area and have at least some levels, players can figure they're in over their heads and try to GTFO instead.

Those are the main scenarios that occur to me, assuming the players are expected to be unable to fight the enemy head-on. Maybe they'll try and get lucky and win or more likely wipe; if they manage to wipe in spite of knowing the situation, I'd say they earned it.

erikun

2013-08-04, 05:14 PM

This is something that most books and DMs will probably recommend against, and for good reason. If the players don't realize that the dragon is too high a level to fight, they'll keep on swinging until they're all dead and then complain about the overleveled encounter. (And their complaints will be valid, given that you forced them into the fight!) If the players realize they're just going to be saved by an NPC, they'll become bored and not really care what their characters do - because it turns out, they don't have any effect over what happens.

The best suggestion I can think of is to have the PCs assigned to guard something, and have the dragon come to get it. This gives the dragon a reason to not attack the PCs, and gives the PCs a show of how ineffective their attacks are against the dragon.

I would still recommend against it, though, for the reasons above and the reasons given by other people. If you don't want to PCs killing the dragon, then you shouldn't be putting the PCs in a situation where they're trying to kill the dragon. I'm not sure why you'd want the party to be forced into this situation to begin with, though.

Katana1515

2013-08-04, 05:55 PM

I have sadly had both of the problems people have mentioned here.
1st characters failing to take any kind of hints and fighting to the death to no avail.
2nd a surprise turnaround in which BBEG gets prematurely ganked (though in that case it was due to a misinterpretation of greater teleport)

To deal with the first problem in an unobtrusive manner i would suggest build up. make it clear that this is something more than another of your 4 recommended daily encounters. Have NPC's both common villagers and the more powerful ones you mentioned talk in awestruck tones about the power of this dragon, the teams of adventurers its beaten, towns raised, armies smashed etc. then when it appears have it focus on some hapless npc's, town guards and the like (having made it clear that these guards are while not overly special are pretty well equipped and competent) let the PC's throw what they have at the beast for a few rounds while it mops up the city guard. when the dragon passes every save DC and its AC/SR knocks every attack aside they should get the picture pretty soon. if they persist after the guards defeat pick on whichever character the party deems the toughest (the BSF for example) and knock him down to near zero, then fly off laughing manically to tear up a nearby building or something. if they dont take the chance to run after that?? kill one of them, its the best way to discourage repeated stupidity and will if nothing else give them plenty of reason to hate the dragon in the future (obviously if thats not your playstyle thats fine, my players are used to the posibility of PC death! :) )

as for problem 2. if all else fails roll behind a screen!

Eldariel

2013-08-04, 06:05 PM

I have sadly had both of the problems people have mentioned here.
1st characters failing to take any kind of hints and fighting to the death to no avail.

There's a use for Sense Motive that allows you to assess how powerful a creature you encounter is in comparison to you. You could point that out to them and let them work with a bit more info. Tho of course, if they have the mindset that "we can take anything we're thrown at", it might help to just take the gloves off and dispel that notion. In my experience, players learn that lesson really fast after a TPK or two. Then they become a bit smarter about which fights they take and which they don't.

Katana1515

2013-08-04, 06:15 PM

There's a use for Sense Motive that allows you to assess how powerful a creature you encounter is in comparison to you

Thats a good idea! though to be fair, in that situation I had already told them pretty much everything their was to know both in and out of character! (which was odd my players are usually fairly whimpish, running from CR appropriate encounters, the heat or something must have gotten to them that day!)