D&D 3.5 Gold System - why is there so much gold?

[Kafana]

I'm trying to stick to the DMG regarding gold per encounter and such because I really want to run a balanced campaign, for once.

Now, the problem is, I want to have a notice board that has an offer for 10 wolverine furs. Now, assuming that the adventurers prepare and think things through, they should be able to get 10 good quality furs from 15 wolverines. That means, since wolverines are solitary animals for the most part, I'll have let's say 9 encounters with one wolverine, and 3 with 2. Meaning 9 encounters level 2 and 3 level 4.

This means that the reward for this quest should b 9x600 + 3x1200, which is 9000 gold. I know I don't have to give the actual gold, but at least the items worth, and I can incorporate into the story that they ran across a corpse that had an amulet that gave him +2 int, for 4k gold, plus an abandoned hut in the forest where they found a hidden compartment with 10 cure medium wound potions, for another 3k and have the actual reward for the furs be 2k, but even that is still to high. The coat made from those furs wouldn't cost a thousand gold.

Could someone please help me wrap my head around the whole system, because after level 1 every other profession becomes highly trivial compared to adventuring.

I mean come on, you kill one wolverine, get 600 gold, that's enough to buy a house and live comfortably for a year.

Once again, I do realize that I don't have to give the actual gold, but it is still a problem.

[tyckspoon]

Because 'gold' is actually used as part of an adventurer's power score. You're not really expected to be trading in hard currency once you reach those 1k+ expected payouts; IMO, an adventurer should have maybe 100 GP worth of actual currency on hand plus perhaps a few gems or small art objects or jewelry pieces for higher-cost transactions. The rest of it is 'virtual' gold that is all tied up in his gear (incidentally, if you transcribe all the magic item GP costs as 'gear point' costs it kinda makes a lot more sense.)

Also, hunting wolverines for furs isn't really an adventuring job, especially not for a full adventuring party.. that's the kind of thing a group of NPC hunters/trappers should be doing. Your players might take it on as a side objective (maybe there's a ruins or an orc encampment or something in the woods they're actually interested in, and they gather pelts since they're out there anyway) but if they're picking 'get me 10 Bear Asses' as their primary task.. well, they shouldn't be too surprised when they get paid appropriately for 10 Bear Asses.

(As to why adventuring pays so well: 1 reason is the gear-point effect I mentioned. It's a conceit of the game that you aren't going to just cash out your gear and retire to live in luxury, you're gonna use it to keep adventuring. So the ridiculous value worth of magic you start carrying around doesn't really have the sort of economic power it should if you just had it in raw gold. The second reason is risk-reward. Adventuring is highly likely to kill you.)

[Humble Master]

I think the problem here is that you are trying to stick to hard to the wealth per encounter rules. See, those rules kind of assume that the monster is going to own some kind of wealth, a small group of orcs has their armor, weapons and they probably carry about a small amount of personal cash. The system breaks down when you throw in monsters that probably won't have much wealth, that is to say Animals, Vermin, Plants and Oozes.

[Qc Storm]

I think the problem here is that you are trying to stick to hard to the wealth per encounter rules. See, those rules kind of assume that the monster is going to own some kind of wealth, a small group of orcs has their armor, weapons and they probably carry about a small amount of personal cash. The system breaks down when you throw in monsters that probably won't have much wealth, that is to say Animals, Vermin, Plants and Oozes.

Typically, when my current monsters have no reason to drop wealth, I just make the next ones richer. Nothing's stopping you from putting a concealed treasure, or a drug-addled, insane and aggressive druid somewhere on their path though.

And that quest doesn't sound super interesting to me. I wouldn't really like killing 10 normal wolverines in a row. Maybe your group is different though.

In my case, it would most likely be the same premise. Except the later wolverines are dire, and the players discover they escaped from some underground animal fighting ring organized by kobolds, in an abandoned mine somewhere filled with traps, magma and suspended minecart tracks.

[Segev]

15 wolverines!? Surely, those adamantine claws must be worth a few thousand gp!

[Alex12]

15 wolverines!? Surely, those adamantine claws must be worth a few thousand gp!

But how are characters of that level going to bypass the regeneration?

[kreenlover]

But how are characters of that level going to bypass the regeneration?

They need to get some keen adamantine weapons themselves! But, to afford those, they need to kill the 15 wolverines!

[lsfreak]

Could someone please help me wrap my head around the whole system, because after level 1 every other profession becomes highly trivial compared to adventuring.

Aaaand you've discovered why D&D is an adventure RPG, not an economics one. The monetary side of things falls apart completely with even a little thought put into it (the most basic being the size of the size of the coins - D&D lists copper, silver, and gold coins as all being 50/pound, with a to-size picture, but in order to be that big, the silver/gold coins will have to be predominantly worthless metal. Historically, large gold and silver coins tended to top out 100/pound, and everyday silver coins were often in the 400-600/pound range and could be even smaller).

[Crake]

Typically, when my current monsters have no reason to drop wealth, I just make the next ones richer. Nothing's stopping you from putting a concealed treasure, or a drug-addled, insane and aggressive druid somewhere on their path though.

Typically the "no treasure" monsters should be balanced out by the double or triple standard treasures i figure

[Lord Vukodlak]

I've considered a system where I segregate the magical and mundane economies essentially the raw materials for magic items would be measured in their own unit Chrysm measures.

Its typically considered to valuable to be exchanged for gold. So there is no exchange rate. The end result being if you commission a magic item you must at least provide the raw material cost in cm, possible two thirds with the rest paid in gold.

Not realistic... but then neither is the basic economy.

[DMVerdandi]

3.5 was invented before D20 modern's Wealth system
Thank you Based Wealth:smallcool:

[Menzath]

Some wizards came up with a get rich quick scheme and just transmuted everything in sight to gold and went on a crazy shopping binge across the planes.

But who knows. Why would a colossal skeleton or zombie have wealth(in monetary form or solid goods) or even know what it is? No one knows, they just do.
It's lying around. Maybe adventurer predecessors went to fight these random things and lost.
Maybe wild beasts dragged bodies (gear and all) back to their dens.
Lot's of maybes and what if's.
It is D&D, Magic N junk.

[Spuddles]

D&D loot is based of randomness. You should have an encounter table with roughly the same number of CR1 encounters that have no loot with CR1 encounters that have double loot, or 2x as many CR1 encounters with standard loot as there are CR1 encounters with no loot.

Many creatures don't have entire loot classes- Azers and Salamanders don't have any flammable goods, for instance, which means any scrolls you roll on them for treasure just burn up. Remove them from the loot.

In other words, under the simulationist aspect of 3.x's loot system, hunting wolverines in the forest will yield very little wealth, because wolverines carry no treasure.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Ya, aside from 9 wolverine fights being samey and boring to most, it ruins (hurts would be more accurate I guess) the game by giving the party a full level worth of xp with almost no loot. This forces you to either give out loot in a ham fisted manner or have the party be loot light for awhile. Personally I like to throw a loot pinata into every chapter (1 1/2-2 levels) of a campaign that brings the party up to wbl if I've used too many low-0 loot critters.

Example:

Chapter 1
Party starts off as kids (15-16 year old 1st level commoners) in a village and goes on various village adventures; rampaging critters, investigating structures on the outskirts of local ruins, capturing wild horses and bringing them to a city to sell.

The party is level 2 and poor.

An Orcish warband attacks the village resulting in a short siege at the end everyone get's an arbitrary amount of coin and standard equipment (excluding heavy armor) is free for the taking.

Chapter 2
One PC's father is revealed to be a retired adventurer, he tells them about a stash of stuff they can have that's in short dungeon he set up. The dungeon is very meta.

Room 1
A statue on a throne.
3 HD construct the fight can be avoided by smashing the statue before it animates. There's a book inside the statue that gives advice and has options to flip to different pages to be congratulated or insulted based on their actions. Warns that "absolutley everything is trying to kill you smash, kill, burn everything and piss on the ashes."

Room 2
Room filled with green slime obvious exit on the opposite side, there's a pillar in the middle that will break and start sinking if you jump to it.
Solution: build a bridge or burn the slime.
Lesson: Obvious trap is obvious"

Room 3
Beautiful woman in torn clothing chained to a wall. She's a werewolf or some other overpowering thing.
Solution CDC her.

Room 4
Obvious treasure on a pillar.
The book attacks you!
Solution: burn the book before now.

The loot was singular items for each PC that brought them to a litle over WBL for their new level.

Chapter 3

Back in the city a crimelord send them to the sewers, after fighting Otyoughs (standard loot by RAW, but I through out several art and goods ruling they'd be ruined) and wererats (aso standad by RAW, but I gave them typical lvl 1 thug loot) they were captured and the crimelord revealed that he was the master wererat. Those he deemed worthy were infected and they were left chained up to turn and be food at the full moon. They eventually escaped and returned to the villian's hideout with the authorities. He shook his fist before escaping through a trap door, taking his personal gear, but leaving an amount of loot that brough the party in line with WBL.

With minimal planning it's easy to have a wbl balancing encounter every few sessions, it's equally easy to do in reverse by sending the party up against a plot relevant baddie that doesn't leave any real loot behind.

[Eric Tolle]

Oh come now, everyone knows that dangerous wild animals regularly eat weapons and armor. Evidently it comes from hanging around the one or two farms that are near major cities.

[Doorhandle]

They need to get some keen adamantine weapons themselves! But, to afford those, they need to kill the 15 wolverines!

Obviously, you grapple 1 wolverine and use him to beat up the rest of them.

[Glimbur]

I've considered a system where I segregate the magical and mundane economies essentially the raw materials for magic items would be measured in their own unit Chrysm measures.

Its typically considered to valuable to be exchanged for gold. So there is no exchange rate. The end result being if you commission a magic item you must at least provide the raw material cost in cm, possible two thirds with the rest paid in gold.

Not realistic... but then neither is the basic economy.

I've done something similar. Magical critters bled liquid magic, which looks like m mercury. You use this in a simple ritual all adventurers know to make magic items. You can add recipes for specific items if you like. It worked alright for a short game from levels.... 3 to 5 or so.

[Spuddles]

I've done something similar. Magical critters bled liquid magic, which looks like m mercury. You use this in a simple ritual all adventurers know to make magic items. You can add recipes for specific items if you like. It worked alright for a short game from levels.... 3 to 5 or so.

Oh god, there would be magical animal genocide. It would be a harvesting holocaust.

[lsfreak]

Oh god, there would be magical animal genocide. It would be a harvesting holocaust.

So that's why unicorns are extinct.

[ericgrau]

Well it's simple. Fur trappers should be catching wolverines, not PCs.

PCs should be infiltrating treasure laden places.

[Yogibear41]

DnD 3.5 has some big flaws IMO and a huge power creep is one of them, player characters have to have an absurd amount of magical items to stay on par with creatures who are CR appropriate once they get on up in levels (unless they are a wizard or druid, but even then it helps)

IMO the players should not be awarded gobs of money for killing wolverines, but if they are to compete against higher CR monsters they will eventually need said monies to even be able to play/stand a chance.

You can either A. through logic and reason out the window and award the players loot strictly by the wealth by level chart, or you can B. adjust your game accordingly and use lower CR monsters even once your party reaches higher level. or C. find some sort of happy medium in between.


But, at the end of the day, yes adventuring is dangerous, yes it should be incredibly more profitable than being a farmer, or a tailor, or a waitor. But thousands of gold for killing normal wolverines just seems rediculous to me.

[Kafana]

First of all, I'd just like to explain that the whole quest isn't about killing wolverines, it's just a hook for something else that happens along the way.

I just wanted to see if you guys had alternative explanations and what not. The first reply did help me understand everything, seeing as how it's really gear points and not gold points were talking about.

However, this still doesn't change the fact that a rookie adventurer after surviving his first dungeon can live comfortably for a very long time. Of course, I'm sure that the number of adventurers who survive a dungeon, even a basic one, is very low, and the ones who do have drive to continue down that path for at least a while.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

First of all, I'd just like to explain that the whole quest isn't about killing wolverines, it's just a hook for something else that happens along the way.

It being a hook doesn't change it being very bland and generally beneath real adventurers. I mean at level one or two you might pick this up to pay the bills if the bounty is a few gold a pelt. Oh, and it should be a bounty or standing price per pelt like you'd have irl/historically rather than a set number like an MMO would demand.




However, this still doesn't change the fact that a rookie adventurer after surviving his first dungeon can live comfortably for a very long time. Of course, I'm sure that the number of adventurers who survive a dungeon, even a basic one, is very low, and the ones who do have drive to continue down that path for at least a while.

They could, but it shouldn't generally be an issue. Characters get retired at level 2-3 all the time; player boredom, one shot games, etc. You're right that an outrageous amount of money comes from a low level adventure, but the best allegory would be a professional fighter or other athlete that's won their first few ppv fights or completed their first million dollar season. They could retire and live comfortably, but they risk serious injury for the love of competition and greed. Add the fact that in a typical heroic campaign that they have the satisfaction of making the world a better place and you have an equation for a long adventuring career.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'd just like to reinforce the idea that for every CR X encounter you have, you gain Gear Points equal to some factor of the experience a CR X encounter would give you. Virtual WBL just works so much better. Basically tying the equipment you have directly to your experience. Well, your % to next level at least, I'm not sure the scaling would match up, but such a system takes care of many of the inherent issues.

[molten_dragon]

I'm trying to stick to the DMG regarding gold per encounter and such because I really want to run a balanced campaign, for once.

Now, the problem is, I want to have a notice board that has an offer for 10 wolverine furs. Now, assuming that the adventurers prepare and think things through, they should be able to get 10 good quality furs from 15 wolverines. That means, since wolverines are solitary animals for the most part, I'll have let's say 9 encounters with one wolverine, and 3 with 2. Meaning 9 encounters level 2 and 3 level 4.

This means that the reward for this quest should b 9x600 + 3x1200, which is 9000 gold. I know I don't have to give the actual gold, but at least the items worth, and I can incorporate into the story that they ran across a corpse that had an amulet that gave him +2 int, for 4k gold, plus an abandoned hut in the forest where they found a hidden compartment with 10 cure medium wound potions, for another 3k and have the actual reward for the furs be 2k, but even that is still to high. The coat made from those furs wouldn't cost a thousand gold.

Could someone please help me wrap my head around the whole system, because after level 1 every other profession becomes highly trivial compared to adventuring.

I mean come on, you kill one wolverine, get 600 gold, that's enough to buy a house and live comfortably for a year.

Once again, I do realize that I don't have to give the actual gold, but it is still a problem.

The system is assuming the characters are out exploring abandoned dungeons and saving people, and killing monsters with valuable gear. It's not really set up to reward people who are just doing WoW-style fetch quests, and those people won't likely get much in the way of treasure.

[prufock]

The treasure value of animals is "none," so you're under no obligation to make the payout for furs more than you wish.