Large Human?

[QuintonBeck]

So for a game I'm planning I want to have humans be the only race on the main material planet (not to restrict creativity, normally I allow much freer games, but it helps drive home the alien-ness of the later-in-the-story Mind Flayer invaders) Well having all humans is restrictive, darn DM! :smalltongue: But I want to throw in some experiments being done by the alien invaders on human captors, one of which I want to lead to the creation of a hulking hurler/war hulk creature that gets unleashed on the PCs at some as of yet undetermined point in the game.

I have no problem with DM fiat but I'd like to keep things as balanced as I can. (Yes I know 3.5 is inherently imbalanced, you know what I mean) so my question is this:

Without adding LA, if I make a large human would it be unbalanced for them to keep their bonus feat and skill points while gaining the advantages and disadvantages of large-size or should the bonus feats and/or skill points be dropped in favor of the large size? Or is large size too great a bonus to not warrant an LA?

[O.j.s]

Well, check this feat http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-faerun--23/jotunbrud--1702/ and powerful build of some races. perhaps its what you`re looking for.

[VariSami]

It also depends whether you are going to use the size increases table here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm).

Jotunbrud does not allow access to the class since it specifies the ways in which you are treated as large.

My best guess is that something like Half-Ogre would make a good substitute for this with a re-fluff.

[O.j.s]

It also depends whether you are going to use the size increases table here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm).

Jotunbrud does not allow access to the class since it specifies the ways in which you are treated as large.

My best guess is that something like Half-Ogre would make a good substitute for this with a re-fluff.

jotunbrud is 3.0, And Powerful build is 3.5 so I believe that it should be reinterpreted as if it gives you that ability.

[Chronos]

Large size always gives an LA. That's not really an issue for you as a DM, though, since LA is completely irrelevant for NPCs. What you want to be looking at is the CR, or challenge rating, which often but not always matches the ECL.

And I'll second the recommendation to use ogre or half-ogre. Really all a giant is is a large humanoid, anyway. Especially so in the context of a world where humans are the only races. If Andre the Giant were in a D&D world, he'd probably be called an ogre.

[Daftendirekt]

PF has the Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1) simple template. Slap it onto a human!

[mabriss lethe]

Enlarge person can also be made permanent, if I remember correctly. I'm afb and posting vía phone. So confirming that is tricky.

[ZamielVanWeber]

It can be made permanent at the low low cost of 500 exp.

[CIDE]

D20 Future has mutations. One is "enlarged form". It's Powerful Build with another name and technically sits just below what the system considers a +1 LA.

[Grayson01]

No he would be called a Gaint See The reference "The Princess Bride" Sorry couldn't help it.

[QUOTE=Chronos;15752020 If Andre the Giant were in a D&D world, he'd probably be called an ogre.[/QUOTE]

[QuintonBeck]

Thanks for the suggestions people! I think I'll go with the ogre or half ogre and just refluff it then. The powerful build seems iffy on if it would qualify you, and since I could emulate it with the Jotunbrud feat (even if it is 3.0 I could use it) but that's throwing away the benefits of the human bonus feat.
Going hlaf/full ogre (never go full ogre!) that's basically dropping the bonus feat for some other interesting stuff with a little LA that, yes, I can ignore. So I think I'll go that way.
Thanks for all the help everyone! :smallbiggrin:

[Drachasor]

Arcana Unearthed (NOT Unearthed Arcana) had a giant race that started at medium but go grow to large with racial levels. That seemed to work well.

That said, if you want to emphasize the alien nature of mind flayers, have you considered just making them even more alien? Non-humanoid, bizarre life cycles (perhaps elder brains are incorporeal thought-beasts and eating brains too quickly can turn any flayer into a lesser version), strange motivations, etc, etc.

Seems like a better way to go. D&D PC races are pretty much just humans with rubber foreheads.

[hamishspence]

Going hlaf/full ogre (never go full ogre!) that's basically dropping the bonus feat for some other interesting stuff with a little LA that, yes, I can ignore. So I think I'll go that way.
Thanks for all the help everyone! :smallbiggrin:

The most recent version of Half-ogre is LA +2 rather than LA +1- but is otherwise the same.

[herrhauptmann]

jotunbrud is 3.0, And Powerful build is 3.5 so I believe that it should be reinterpreted as if it gives you that ability.

So a feat is worth 1 LA? Nah.
Jotunbrud is jotunbrud, powerful build is a different animal entirely. Jotunbrud humans tend to be bigger, I think females start at 6ft and males at 6.5ft. That bigger effect is reflected mechanically in the fact taht they can count themselves as large in certain opposed rolls, if being large is beneficial.

One of the main reasons that people seem to like powerful build is that it gives you a bigger weapon size. Jotunbrud doesn't do that.

[hamishspence]

Pathfinder's Giant Creature template granted a bonus to Str, Con, and AC, as well as Large size, but a penalty to dexterity- which was effectively what the rules for advancing any creature to Large size did, in the 3.5 MM.

It was LA +1.

Just the size change (with no change to Str, Con, or AC- but with the Dex penalty kept)- I think, would be LA +0.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Pathfinder's Giant Creature template granted a bonus to Str, Con, and AC, as well as Large size, but a penalty to dexterity- which was effectively what the rules for advancing any creature to Large size did, in the 3.5 MM.

It was LA +1.

Just the size change (with no change to Str, Con, or AC- but with the Dex penalty kept)- I think, would be LA +0.

This template?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1

+1 CR not LA, not the same thing. I was going to say that it's a bit overpoweredas an LA +1, but in defiance of logic it appears to not increase reach, so it's probably ok. Maybe +1 NA to counteract the penalty from dex rather than +3.

[Drachasor]

This template?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1

+1 CR not LA, not the same thing. I was going to say that it's a bit overpoweredas an LA +1, but in defiance of logic it appears to not increase reach, so it's probably ok. Maybe +1 NA to counteract the penalty from dex rather than +3.

Reach is inherently based on size and creature shape. So it would increase reach. Saying otherwise would be like saying you'd still wear medium armor or your encumbrance doesn't change.

In general I would say that adding large size to an existing race is not LA +0, though it is a weak change for LA +1. One should not underestimate the power of greater reach, especially with Enlarge Person potentially being added on top of that.

[Daftendirekt]

This template?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1

+1 CR not LA, not the same thing.

That's because Pathfinder got rid of LA. +1 LA is the closest thing you could compare it to in 3.5.

[Chronos]

That's because Pathfinder got rid of LA.
Or, rather, merged it with CR.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Reach is inherently based on size and creature shape. So it would increase reach. Saying otherwise would be like saying you'd still wear medium armor or your encumbrance doesn't change.

Either way it's awkwardly written, for example it points out that damage dice go up a step. We all assume that just as fast as we assume reach.

No LA, just CR and ask your DM? Pathfinder and it's unneeded tweeks just small enough to miss and just big enough to matter. I should have guessed this though, I noticed races that felt like they should be weak +1 LA labeled as 15-17 points in some race assessing system.