Durkon's deity?

[Magnasword2]

Hey there I'm not too familiar with 3.5 rules or the effects of vampirism so my question is this. Will Durkon still be a follower of Thor now that be he has been vamped? Heck would he even be allowed too?

[Heksefatter]

Depends. Theoretically, his alignment could have reverted to lawful good now that he's a free vampire. This would be up to the game master (or Giant as the case may be). If he remained evil, his alignment would be at least two steps away from his good deity, and as such he would, according to the D&D rules, not be able to follow Thor.

However, it would also depend on whether Thor would accept a vampire as a cleric. The D&D rules offer no guidance there, as far as I know, and certainly none as to whether Thor, in the OotS-verse would object. I suspect he would, but that's just me. There are probably very few precedents for poor Thor to go on anyway.

Again, it should be stressed that the D&D rules aren't really what makes the call here. In any case, the D&D rules on free-willed good vampire clerics of good deities are pretty obscure.

[Kish]

If Thor gives Durkon a hard time for having lost a fight to a vampire while Thor was too busy having a ridiculous argument with Hel to answer his prayers, Thor needs a whack upside the head with an elm.

[Michaeler]

If Thor rejects him, is Banjo still hiring?

[Mighty_Chicken]

Apparently there's a job opportunity for Nerghal's most important priest in the Empire of Blood. And Tarqin's, despite his coldness, is probably more prone to side with Durkon than with Nale.

[Bird]

The Giant on Durkon's lack of need for a deity:


...

Tell you what, you read the vampire template entry, particularly the part where it explicitly says that vampire clerics can still cast spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) just with different domain access, and you tell me where it says anything about gods or temporary loss of access there. It doesn't. Vampire clerics do not need to worship a god to cast spells, because NO cleric needs a god to cast spells. The rules specifically allow for "non-theistic" clerics, and explains exactly what the effects of turning into a vampire has on a cleric: Rebuke instead of Turn, different domains. Period.
...
Of course, now that the thralldom is over, whether it's possible for Durkon to take up with a deity again is an interesting question.

[Porthos]

If Thor gives Durkon a hard time for having lost a fight to a vampire while Thor was too busy having a ridiculous argument with Hel to answer his prayers, Thor needs a whack upside the head with an elm.

Like Thor could have done anything there, anyway.

Last time Thor tried to help in an area outside his service area, he got chased off (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html). I am unsure why people think this situation would be much different. :smallwink:

[KillianHawkeye]

Theoretically, his alignment could have reverted to lawful good now that he's a free vampire. This would be up to the game master (or Giant as the case may be). If he remained evil, his alignment would be at least two steps away from his good deity, and as such he would, according to the D&D rules, not be able to follow Thor.

I don't think we actually have definitive knowledge of OOTS Thor's alignment. (If we do, I missed it.) He is definitely not the same as D&D's Chaotic Good Thor, but was he ever confirmed as being Lawful Good? Could be Lawful Neutral maybe.

[Razanir]

If Thor gives Durkon a hard time for having lost a fight to a vampire while Thor was too busy having a ridiculous argument with Hel to answer his prayers, Thor needs a whack upside the head with an elm.

Come on, that was an important debate! The kid clearly died in combat.

[Heksefatter]

If Thor rejects him, is Banjo still hiring?

I think this is more Banjulhu's gig.

[Porthos]

I don't think we actually have definitive knowledge of OOTS Thor's alignment. (If we do, I missed it.) He is definitely not the same as D&D's Chaotic Good Thor, but was he ever confirmed as being Lawful Good? Could be Lawful Neutral maybe.

We have no idea what Thor's alignment is in OOTS.

I personally think it is CG, One Step Rule be damned. And until I hear Word of Giant, one way or the other, I will continue to think that way. :smallwink:

[Heksefatter]

I don't think we actually have definitive knowledge of OOTS Thor's alignment. (If we do, I missed it.) He is definitely not the same as D&D's Chaotic Good Thor, but was he ever confirmed as being Lawful Good? Could be Lawful Neutral maybe.

I don't think there's ever been an official confirmation of Thor's goodness in the comic or by Word of the Giant. I've just always considered Thor a good deity. So technically it'd be possible if Thor was Lawful Neutral for Lawful Good dwarf Durkon and Lawful Evil undead Durkula to follow him, yes.

That is, unless Lawful Neutral Thor doesn't accept evil clerics. This is a possibility. St. Cuthbert (of the Cudgel) of Greyhawk fame is Lawful Neutral and accept Lawful Good clerics, but not Lawful Evil ones.

Then again, I don't see the OotS Thor we know and love being Lawful Neutral.

[Heksefatter]

We have no idea what Thor's alignment is in OOTS.

I personally think it is CG, One Step Rule be damned. And until I hear Word of Giant, one way or the other, I will continue to think that way. :smallwink:

It should be noted that the one step rule isn't absolute in D&D standard either. Sune in the Forgotten Realms setting is CG, but accepts LG paladins. The one step rule is a guideline, even in official D&D.

[Secris]

I assumed he would eventually slip into a new God's circle, but given that Giant quote, I'm not so sure. Of course, just because he doesn't have to worship a God doesn't mean he won't. If he does, I would assume he'll worship Hel. The way he and Malack talked about it so soon before Durkon's undeath, it seems appropriate.

Even if he doesn't end up evil, he could still worship Hel. Worshiping Hel may be uncouth among proper dwarves, a once-pious dwarf vampire may feel shamed by what he has become and thus isn't worthy of worshiping Thor or any other righteous dwarf God.

[Heksefatter]

On a related note, does anyone know what Banjo's alignment is?

[Secris]

On a related note, does anyone know what Banjo's alignment is?

Chaotic Awesome

[ORione]

On a related note, does anyone know what Banjo's alignment is?

Well, his high priest is Chaotic Good, so probably that, or one step from that.

I know Elan's not a cleric, but that still seems likely.

[Gift Jeraff]

My guesses regarding Durkon & Thor are still one of the following:

A) Some deities have looser rules for certain races. e.g. Thor and dwarves, the Dark One and goblinoids, Tiamat and kobolds/chromatic dragons, some Lolth equivalent and drow, etc.

B) Law-Chaos doesn't really matter to good gods. Afterall, the existence of angels (celestials that can be any Good alignment) might indicate that the forces of Good get along. I mean, they are good and all.

or

C) The one-step rule only applies if that's one of the god's domains. So Thor is a god who happens to be Chaotic, but he is not a god of Chaos.

[Kish]

Like Thor could have done anything there, anyway.
Off the top of my head, he could have said--if nothing else--"I don't know, Durkon, but one thing you shouldn't do, is put too much faith in that weird new spell I granted you this morning, because it seems to have a backdoor."

[Magnasword2]

On a related note, does anyone know what Banjo's alignment is?

Considering his followers consist of Orcs, Elan, Belkar (For a stint) and Haley (Drunk) We can assume that banjo is very much chaotic. Considering his policies as spoken by his prophet Elan he also appears to be good.

But in regards to the topic while it may not be necessary for Durkon to have a deity it appears that pre-vamp Durkon would worship thor off his own bat. I guess it depends on post-vamp Durkons way of thinking of whther he would continue with this or switch to a more "Fitting" God in terms of his vampirism. Finally there's always the option that his unanswered prayers create a more despairing Diurkon in terms of faith.

[Porthos]

Off the top of my head, he could have said--if nothing else--"I don't know, Durkon, but one thing you shouldn't do, is put too much faith in that weird new spell I granted you this morning, because it seems to have a backdoor."

Like Thor personally analyzes every spell he gives out to the fine detail. :smalltongue:

More seriously, I must admit to be being slightly... bewildered at the amount of anger that gets directed at Thor for a panel that I just took as a humorous joke. I mean, on one level I get it. But mostly I just took it as a send up as to why gods don't answer pleas in fantasy stories.

[Bird]

Thor is far from omniscient. It's pretty well established (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html) that he's distractable and has a tenuous grasp on what his followers are doing -- so no, failing to notice the backdoor isn't much of a surprise. :smallwink:

Not to mention the fact that he seems to let underlings handle much of the nitty-gritty of spell granting.

edit: ninja'd, sort of

[Kish]

Mainly, I just object to the idea that Durkon has done anything to atone for.

I mean, Thor's pretty much a Grade-A jackass every time we see him. So he might well expect it. (Shojo's version, and Redcloak's even darker version, of the world's creation is definitely...believable, for all the virtue any of the OotS gods ever show.) But all Durkon did...was lose a fight where he was badly overmatched, with Thor's name on his lips. So if Thor does expect Durkon to atone for something that was done to him against his will...I'll be more pleased afterward than I would be right now, if the next strip featured Thor's head, an elm, and an extra-large BONK sound effect.

[Porthos]

Thor is far from omniscient. It's pretty well established (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html) that he's distractable and has a tenuous grasp on what his followers are doing -- so no, failing to notice the backdoor isn't much of a surprise. :smallwink:

There is a reason why I've always pegged him as Chaotic. :smallwink:

It's funny. When I saw that now infamous cutaway from the Durkon/Malack fight, I laughed. I just thought it was a funny juxtaposition as well as a fine moment of parody of stories invovling deities. I didn't go "OMG! How could you abandon Durkon in his moment of need, Thor? You're AWFUL!".

Didn't even occur to me to think along those lines until I saw all of the discussion about it.

Still, really don't to be honest.

[Bird]

Certainly, Durkon was doing the best he could. It'd be awfully hard to fault the poor guy.

Of course, whether Thor considers Durkula to be Durkon at all is a different issue.

[137beth]

Hey there I'm not too familiar with 3.5 rules or the effects of vampirism so my question is this. Will Durkon still be a follower of Thor now that be he has been vamped? Heck would he even be allowed too?

Players being vampirized is something the rules do not account for, so it is entirely DM- dependent.

[Porthos]

Mainly, I just object to the idea that Durkon has done anything to atone for.

Here, I agree. But any evil that he commits while being a vampire?

Well, I hope Durkon is the sort of person who would want to atone for such acts regardless of what Thor thinks. Yes, he's 'under the infulence', as it were. Durkon still strikes me as the sort to want to make amends later.

ETA:::: And if you're saying that Thor should still accept Durkon as a worshipper if the only thing 'wrong' with him is his current relationship with a heartbeat? Yeah, OK. I'd go along with that.

[Bird]

It's funny. When I saw that now infamous cutaway from the Durkon/Malack fight, I laughed. I just thought it was a funny juxtaposition as well as a fine moment of parody of stories invovling deities. I didn't go "OMG! How could you abandon Durkon in his moment of need, Thor? You're AWFUL!".
The poignant thing about that scene to me is that Durkon is too good for his god.

He's like a solider who devotes his life to a selfish genearl, or a child trying to appease a drunken parent.

Thor just doesn't appear to deserve such devotion.

[Dark Matter]

Durkon had the Good domain, so Thor must be Good.

Thor-as-lawful seems unlikely from what we've seen (although a few snippets of existence is far from enough knowledge on a god's vastness).

But going with what we've seen, that leaves NG (following the one step rule) or CG (not following it).

[Porthos]

Thor just doesn't appear to have done much to deserve such devotion.

To be fair, not many deities in OotSWorld, including The Dark One, have really had much of a chance to show off their, ahem, good sides.

Still, Thor DID help in Cliffport for what it's worth. Got in trouble for it, too. :smallwink:

[Bird]

To be fair, not many deities in OotSWorld, including The Dark One, have really had much of a chance to show off their, ahem, good sides.

Still, Thor DID help in Cliffport for what it's worth. Got in trouble for it, too. :smallwink:
Sure, there's no proof that Thor is much worse than the other gods.

Thor does care about his followers to be sure, but he isn't consistent about it.

He reminds me of a parent who ignores his children much of the time, but shows up periodically with an armful of presents before disappearing again.

Although, given that Durkon is an adult, you could make various arguments about how much attention Thor ought or ought not to be giving. There's that whole tangle of "free will" and "personal responsibility" which I won't opine on or try to unpack here. :smallwink:

[Amphiox]

Like Thor personally analyzes every spell he gives out to the fine detail. :smalltongue:

More seriously, I must admit to be being slightly... bewildered at the amount of anger that gets directed at Thor for a panel that I just took as a humorous joke. I mean, on one level I get it. But mostly I just took it as a send up as to why gods don't answer pleas in fantasy stories.

The irony of it is that with all the chirping about this or that plot twisting being flawed for being a Deus-Ex-Machina, here we have anger at a LITERAL deux-ex-machina NOT happening.

[Amphiox]

Thor in this strip has been presented as a complete Cloudcuckoolander, which fits more with Chaotic Good than Neutral Good, which would imply that the one-step-removed rule is not being applied.

Him being a Cloudcuckoolander also suggests that, from a narrative standpoint, there's almost no way of predicting what he's going to do on this point at all. We may even see a gag showing Thor continuing to grant Durkon spells because he hasn't even noticed that Durkon's been turned undead, with his various celestials frantically trying to tell him so, and him ignoring them or misinterpreting them (wherein we may get to see the "he turned undead" joke the Giant had planned for strip #2 but chose not to use).

But the other question of course is whether Durkon, now, would still want to worship Thor.

[Komatik]

Durkon is Evil. Please get over it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15754104&postcount=82)

[Toofey]

Is vampirism a disease?

[Kish]

No.

Because I alas cannot make a three-character post, I'll take a guess that you're thinking Durkon "died of vampirism." But no. Durkon died of having all the blood in his body drained, and if you ask if that's a disease, I would venture the answer should be as obvious as the answer to "is blunt-force trauma a disease."

[littlebum2002]

IMHO, I think there's a very good chance that he will be a cleric of Nergal. He is prophesied to bring death and destruction to his homeland, Nergal is the deity of Death and Destruction.

I think the likelihood that this is a coincidence is very, very low.

[veti]

I think it's quite unreasonable to blame Thor for being distracted during the Durkon/Malack fight. He was arguing with a rival deity about the destination of the soul of one of his followers. What higher duty does a god even have than that?

Just because the follower was some no-name NPC, and the argument was based on idiotic dwarfish dendrophobia, doesn't make her any less worthy of entering Valhalla (or whatever Thor's domain is called in this setting), and Thor is 100% right to be standing up for her. Good on him.

[Bird]

Thor is 100% right to be standing up for her.
Absolutely he is.

If standing up for one of your children means neglecting another while he's murdered, though -- that gets ugly. Especially for a god, whom one would hope could walk and chew bubblegum at the same time.

[martianmister]

So, Thor should create some kind of literal DEM for one of his followers? How's that fair in D&D sense? :smallconfused:

[Bird]

So, Thor should create some kind of literal DEM for one of his followers? How's that fair in D&D sense? :smallconfused:
It isn't.

*limitdance

[Geordnet]

So, Thor should create some kind of literal DEM for one of his followers? How's that fair in D&D sense? :smallconfused:

It's fair because D&D is a game where everyone's on the same side. Having a literal DeM is just like adjusting the difficulty level. :smalltongue:


(More on topic, I think that Thor is probably NG and Hel is probably NE. I have no idea who Durkon's going to turn to, though.)

[jidasfire]

I count myself among those who see Durkon worshiping Hel after all this. She was introduced in this arc, and is seen as a goddess no respectable dwarves would ever worship. But then, Durkon's hardly a respectable dwarf anymore. Plus, it allows us to keep going with the various Norse god gags the strip has from time to time. I suppose he could stay unaligned with any deity, but jumping to the goddess of death in his own pantheon seems a decent twist to me.

[Bird]

I count myself among those who see Durkon worshiping Hel after all this. She was introduced in this arc, and is seen as a goddess no respectable dwarves would ever worship. But then, Durkon's hardly a respectable dwarf anymore. Plus, it allows us to keep going with the various Norse god gags the strip has from time to time. I suppose he could stay unaligned with any deity, but jumping to the goddess of death in his own pantheon seems a decent twist to me.
That's a nice point about the gags. Seems like jumping to Hel would allow for both comedic and dramatic potential. Really, who wouldn't be interested to see Thor reacting to that?

[The Smallest]

If Thor rejects him, is Banjo still hiring?

Elan: The world just isn't ready for Banjo the Clown, Roy. Soon, he will be a forgotten god, slumbering away for centuries until dark priests seek to awaken his unholy power. But when he returns, all shall hear his call... The call... of BANJULHU!

[The Smallest]

I'm sure Durkon counts as a dark priest, having murdered a person in cold blood.

[The Smallest]

I'm sure Elan will be thrilled to have a new worshipper for his god. Maybe Vampire Durkon will be able to recruit new followers for Banjulhu and have him actually ascend to godhood. Elan will probably be against turning Banjo evil, so maybe he will have to be killed and offered up as a sacrifice to Banjulhu. For the other gods, it will probably be like the Dark One all over again.

[Felhammer]

I'm sure Durkon counts as a dark priest, having murdered a person in cold blood.

In Cold Blood...? If that were the case, then every adventurer who cop de graced a Goblin would be guilty of murder.

[Kish]

Just because the follower was some no-name NPC, and the argument was based on idiotic dwarfish dendrophobia, doesn't make her any less worthy of entering Valhalla (or whatever Thor's domain is called in this setting), and Thor is 100% right to be standing up for her. Good on him.
The fact is, she died because she freaked out on a tree and got a splinter and died of the resulting infection (days or weeks later, presumably). I don't see either ambiguity or unambiguity in Thor's favor there; she belonged to Hel, Thor was being deliberately obtuse in an effort to not admit it. Thor's argument isn't significantly better (just less related to the running joke about dwarven attitudes toward trees) than if he was arguing that he should get the soul of a dwarf who died of the flu because of how her immune system bravely battled the virus.

There's a large amount of room to argue that the dwarven afterlife system is itself inherently messed up, with one deity contractually getting souls who desperately want not to go to her. But if there's ambiguity in who the contract said that particular soul belonged to, it can only be because Durkon, in his belief that trees are actual dangerous enemies anyway, neglected to spell out some "and along with the Alcohol Exception, there's a Disease Caused by Trees Exception" fine print; and if that was true, I doubt Hel would be arguing the case at all, any more than we see her protesting that she should get the soul of X Dwarf who died of liver poisoning.
In Cold Blood...? If that were the case, then every adventurer who cop de graced a Goblin would be guilty of murder.
If there is still blood in Durkon's veins, it doesn't get above room temperature anymore.

[Michaeler]

If there is still blood in Durkon's veins, it doesn't get above room temperature anymore.

Room temperature in a desert.

[Grogmir]

IMHO, I think there's a very good chance that he will be a cleric of Nergal. He is prophesied to bring death and destruction to his homeland, Nergal is the deity of Death and Destruction.

I think the likelihood that this is a coincidence is very, very low.

According to strip #737 then yes. Nergals are Death and Destruction.

But according to the Wiki Nergals' domains are Death, Earth, Evil & Vampires domains are Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery.

While I certainly subscribed to the D will be turned to a Vamp and the bring Death and Destruction back to his homelands, its going to be interesting to see how exactly it is fulfilled.

and as Durkon will have no real need to switch to Nergal I predict another way. Perhaps...

Destruction gets Earthquake right? And Earthquake underground might actually bring a lot of Death and Destruction to his homeworld!

[Hexen_Hase]

Considering Durkon has been slaving away, met with a terrible fate, and is due back to his homelands as a vampire, you'd almost think Armok had a hand in this.

[jere7my]

According to strip #737 then yes. Nergals are Death and Destruction.

But according to the Wiki Nergals' domains are Death, Earth, Evil & Vampires domains are Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery.

What a god is the god of and what their spell domains are are two different things. Robigus was the Roman god of mold and mildew; that doesn't mean his followers would get the Mold and Mildew domains.

The comic is canon. The wiki is not.

[gomanfox]

As has been mentioned already, D&D Clerics don't need to receive their spells directly from gods.

With this in mind, there's nothing that states that Durkon couldn't still be a follower of Thor (at least in his own mind) after the vampirism and alignment swap, he just might be receiving his spells from the same place a non-theistic cleric would (assuming that Thor will not accept an evil cleric).

This opens up a few possibilities. It could lead to Durkon realizing that an evil cleric can't serve Thor and give him a reason to atone. Or it could lead to Durkon's newly-twisted mind to come up with evil interpretations of Thor's will (which could then lead to some sort of action on Thor's part to 'correct' Durkon).

Or Durkon could simply move on to a new deity or stick with none at all, if Thor rejects him.

[Bird]

Robigus was the Roman god of mold and mildew;

Thank you for teaching me this thing.

[brionl]

According to strip #737 then yes. Nergals are Death and Destruction.

But according to the Wiki Nergals' domains are Death, Earth, Evil & Vampires domains are Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery.

While I certainly subscribed to the D will be turned to a Vamp and the bring Death and Destruction back to his homelands, its going to be interesting to see how exactly it is fulfilled.

and as Durkon will have no real need to switch to Nergal I predict another way. Perhaps...

Destruction gets Earthquake right? And Earthquake underground might actually bring a lot of Death and Destruction to his homeworld!

I don't think Durkon is going to be personally killing any other dwarves. The Death and Destruction he is bringing is in the form of Xykon and Redcloak. Isn't one of Redcloak's domains Destruction even?

[TrixiePixie]

Durkon's former domains were Good and Wind, but with this transformation it's entirely possible he'll choose some with the Death and Destruction domains, or come back dead and with the Destruction domain, or cause any sort of havoc we can't really imagine now. Or nothing at all, and the prophecy was just false.


Like Thor could have done anything there, anyway.

Protection from Evil, a level 1 spell, would have pretty easily allowed Belkar to join the fight and prevent Durkon's death.
Too bad Thor was too busy arguing about splinters.

[Secris]

What are Hel's domains? Could Durkon get Death and Destruction from her?

[Kish]

All we know about her, in the context of the OotS comic, is that she's the Northern death goddess, keeper of the dishonored dwarven dead, with no dwarven priests.

[Rakoa]

All we know about her, in the context of the OotS comic, is that she's the Northern death goddess, keeper of the dishonored dwarven dead, with no dwarven priests.

And this is all from Durkon, correct?