Reserve master

[Lightlawbliss]

so, after revisiting a recent bit of thread necromancy, I thought It might be cool to build a character (for some form of unknown future use) who tried to get as much out of reserve feats as he could while using the spells not needed for the reserve feats to provide buffs and utility.

What thoughts does the playground have on class, feats (reserve and otherwise), and anything else that might matter?

[Zanos]

A sorcerer with any of the qualifying spells and heighten spell can always use reserve feats to their maximum effect, for starters.

[DR27]

A sorcerer with any of the qualifying spells and heighten spell can always use reserve feats to their maximum effect, for starters.This pretty much - for wizards, it's just plain dumb to prep a fire spell for fiery burst at every level (as an example), so they can use their reserve feat pretty much until they decide that the relevant spell needs to be used. If that happens early in the day, then well, $#!%. Sorcerers can use that reserve feat all day. I've even had DM's who were fine with Versatile Spellcaster powering my top level slot for reserve feat purposes - very worthwhile.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Circle Magic can heighten your qualifying spells to level 20.

[Norin]

A sorcerer with any of the qualifying spells and heighten spell can always use reserve feats to their maximum effect, for starters.

We had a discussion around this not too long ago here on the forum, and the genereal consesus was that the trick does not work.

Let me see if i can find that thread....

[NevinPL]

What thoughts does the playground have on class, feats (reserve and otherwise), and anything else that might matter?
Energy Admixture, Born of the Three Thunders, and other feats, and stuff that lets you have one spell, with different descriptors, should be very useful.

[Alex12]

Sorcerer with 10 levels of Rainbow Servant. I'm reasonably confident that the entire Cleric spell list covers pretty much all the reserve feats, at least the ones that don't need domain access.

[Karnith]

Sorcerer with 10 levels of Rainbow Servant. I'm reasonably confident that the entire Cleric spell list covers pretty much all the reserve feats, at least the ones that don't need domain access.
Rainbow Servant on a Sorcerer base only lets you learn Cleric spells as spells known (it effectively adds them to your spell list); it doesn't automatically add them all to your spells known unless you're a fixed-list caster like a Beguiler or a Warmage, for whom their spell lists are their spells known.

[Chronos]

On the other hand, Touch of Healing is likely the only one you'd want that you'd need divine casting for, and it doesn't really matter how potent a spell you use for it since it's mostly just used out-of-combat. So spend one of your low-level spells known on some Cure or another and you're fine.

Of course, you could do the same thing more cheaply with Arcane Disciple.

[Deophaun]

A sorcerer with any of the qualifying spells and heighten spell can always use reserve feats to their maximum effect, for starters.
Throw on versatile spellcaster, and you can squeeze out an extra level.

[Feint's End]

We had a discussion around this not too long ago here on the forum, and the genereal consesus was that the trick does not work.

Let me see if i can find that thread....

You are right. It doesn't. The reason why is because you technically don't know the qualifying spell of the appropriate level since it gets modified upon casting and not upon being in the spellslot so it doesn't qualify for a reserve feat as a higher level spellslot (which must be known or prepared).

It would be a reasonable houserule to rule otherwise. At least when we talk about using energy substitution. The heighten spelllevel is a bit too out of the norm for my taste but it wouldn't be overpowered neither.

[Chronos]

But then, as a sorcerer, none of your spells are ever "in a spell slot" until you cast them.

[Alex12]

But then, as a sorcerer, none of your spells are ever "in a spell slot" until you cast them.

Reserve feats count you having a spell slot open and a qualifying spell that can fit in that slot as being able to use the feat.

[Hamste]

On the other hand, Touch of Healing is likely the only one you'd want that you'd need divine casting for, and it doesn't really matter how potent a spell you use for it since it's mostly just used out-of-combat. So spend one of your low-level spells known on some Cure or another and you're fine.

Of course, you could do the same thing more cheaply with Arcane Disciple.

Actually you do not need divine casting for that one. Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords and Hoard life are both conjuration healing spells that a sorcerer can learn (Somewhat high level though) and thus get touch of healing

[Zanos]

You are right. It doesn't. The reason why is because you technically don't know the qualifying spell of the appropriate level since it gets modified upon casting and not upon being in the spellslot so it doesn't qualify for a reserve feat as a higher level spellslot (which must be known or prepared).

It would be a reasonable houserule to rule otherwise. At least when we talk about using energy substitution. The heighten spelllevel is a bit too out of the norm for my taste but it wouldn't be overpowered neither.

The feat's don't say anything about knowing the spell, only about having it "available to cast" You're heightened burning hands is certainly available to cast in a 9th level slot if you have a 9th level slot remaining for the day.

Sorry if I'm rehashing an old argument.

[Deophaun]

The feat's don't say anything about knowing the spell.
It's not what the feats say. Instead, it's the general rule for how reserve feats work:

A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher. If the character has more than one appropriate spell known, he gains the benefit only from the highest-level spell for which he has an unused spell slot of that level or higher.
Technically, a Wizard 19/Sorcerer 1 that learned meteor swarm could use a 9d6 Fiery Blast without even preparing the spell as long as he kept one 9th-level spell slot open.

It's stuff like this that tempts me to houserule that all wizards have a starting Int of 2. Just so wizards can glimpse a tiny sliver of the hate that WotC must have had towards sorcerers.

[Jack_Simth]

Circle Magic can heighten your qualifying spells to level 20.
Yep. Red Wizard of Thay + Leadership. Hello at-will 100 foot range 20d6 Acidic Splatter at 10th level.

Energy Admixture, Born of the Three Thunders, and other feats, and stuff that lets you have one spell, with different descriptors, should be very useful.
For a prepared caster, yes. For a spontaneous caster, not so much.

Although you throw a monkeywrench into the rules when you give a spontaneous caster Arcane Preparation....

[Chronos]

Well, OK then, you know Burning Hands, and you have it available to cast as a 9th-level spell thanks to Heighten.

[Lightlawbliss]

Hey guys, your getting close to off topic with this and moving away. try to at least stay close to the topic.

edit: and to help, let's say it's dm's call and discuss good options both ways.

[Grayson01]

Bard Arcane that works with Touch of Healing.

On the other hand, Touch of Healing is likely the only one you'd want that you'd need divine casting for, and it doesn't really matter how potent a spell you use for it since it's mostly just used out-of-combat. So spend one of your low-level spells known on some Cure or another and you're fine.

Of course, you could do the same thing more cheaply with Arcane Disciple.

[Petrocorus]

For Wizards, there is the Alacritous Cogitation feat from CM. Already handy on its own, it let you keep a single slot open to spontaneously cast one spell of that level or lower. If you keep a slot of your highest spell level, all the spells of your spell book are available to cast and can power your reserve feat. You can actually power all your reserve feats with one open slot, as long as you don't use it for a spell you really need and haven't prepared.

The Spontaneous Casting feat from Eberron do the same thing, but instead of letting a slot open, you need 2 action points. Less good, but as long as you have 2 action points remaining, all your spell are available to cast.



On the other hand, Touch of Healing is likely the only one you'd want that you'd need divine casting for, and it doesn't really matter how potent a spell you use for it since it's mostly just used out-of-combat. So spend one of your low-level spells known on some Cure or another and you're fine.

Of course, you could do the same thing more cheaply with Arcane Disciple.

BTW, the Holy Warrior feat require "access to the War Domain", does that mean that only a cleric of a god offering this domain can take it?

[Segev]

I didn't come up with this trick, but somebody on this board posted it in another thread: Taking Precocious Apprentice to give yourself a 2nd level spell at first level can make a very potent reserve feat for spamming at levels 1-2.

Sanctum Spell might also help, depending on exact wording: it treats a spell cast in your Sanctum as one level higher. I don't think it actually works, though, unless you're using the reserve feat in your sanctum, and even that's questionable.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Precocious Apprentice is a good idea. If you can take it or retrain feats then human is a must. If you go spontaneous caster you only need to leave your highest level spell slot open to use any of your feats. If you go wizard you can use your wizard bonus feats to take reserve feats.

Is there a prestige class out there that lists reserve feats as possible bonus feats? Alternatively is there a prestige class that specifically offers wizard bonus feats?

[Petrocorus]

Actually you do not need divine casting for that one. Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords and Hoard life are both conjuration healing spells that a sorcerer can learn (Somewhat high level though) and thus get touch of healing

And now, the Sorcadin can have unlimited lay on hand. Nice catch.

[Norin]

We had a discussion around this not too long ago here on the forum, and the genereal consesus was that the trick does not work.

Let me see if i can find that thread....

I found what I was looking for:

From "Simple Q&A D&D 3.5 (by RAW) XXII":

- My question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14546132&postcount=987)

- Answer by Curmudgeon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14546713&postcount=988)

[Ruethgar]

Reserve Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147086) is nice though homebrew.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Or you could just play a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept and be done with the charade...

Potential of 40d6 per blast, depending on how your GM rules Strongheart Vest and Legacy Champion when combined with Hellfire Warlock. Then of course, you Glaive it.... with the right feat combinations, you might even be able to one-round the Tarrasque, or at least do enough damage for the Wish spell to work on it.

[Terazul]

Reserve Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147086) is nice though homebrew.

Also the Reservationist. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149355)

[Radar]

I found what I was looking for:

From "Simple Q&A D&D 3.5 (by RAW) XXII":

- My question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14546132&postcount=987)

- Answer by Curmudgeon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14546713&postcount=988)
As per the answer, the trick works like this: if you are a Sorcerer and have Scorching Ray, then if you do leave a 9th level spell slot open, Heighten Spell does makes your Scorching Ray qualify as a 9th level spell.

This is more then enough to make Sorcerer a viable option for Reserve feat use. Still with the Alacritous Cogitation Wizard has it much easier and better.

As for the Sanctum Spell abuse, there is this thing called Acorn of Far Travel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a), which allows you to be always treated as under the oak, from which the acorn was taken. If you make that oak your sanctum, you can always use the benefits of that metamagic. It is worth mentioning, that it's the least cheese way of using Sanctum Spell.

There is also Earth Spell (racial feat from Races of Stone), which bumps your spells up an additional level, when you use Heighten Spell, which means, you can use a 5th level slot, to cast a spell, which is treated as a 6th level spell. Combined with Sanctum Spell it would give you 7th level spells from the same 5th level slot. It works for Shadowcraft Mages and just as well for reserve feat users. Both methods allow you to circumvent the 9th level limit of Heighten Spell, but Earth Spell won't work on spells with some elemental descriptors and requires you to pick a specific race.

[nedz]

BTW, the Holy Warrior feat require "access to the War Domain", does that mean that only a cleric of a god offering this domain can take it?

Or an Arcane caster with the Arcane Disciple (War) feat — it does require them to have a patron deity who grants the War domain though.

Or any Divine caster who dips Contemplative and chooses the War domain; but not one who enters Warpriest bizarrely.

[Petrocorus]

The Holy Warrior is one of the best reserve feat to my mind. Specially when you combine it with one of the feats or ACF which gives spontaneous casting for domains.

I also like the Dimensional Jaunt feat. If you can combine that with a Quicken Supernatural Ability or with the Perpetual Option class features of the Swiftblade, you can teleport-pounce at will.

The Summon Familar Elemental is also one of the best because it's one of the most versatile.


Or you could just play a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept and be done with the charade...

Potential of 40d6 per blast, depending on how your GM rules Strongheart Vest and Legacy Champion when combined with Hellfire Warlock. Then of course, you Glaive it.... with the right feat combinations, you might even be able to one-round the Tarrasque, or at least do enough damage for the Wish spell to work on it.

The thing is that a blast reserve feat like Acidic Splatter or Fiery Burst gives you half of the Warlock class features in addition of your Wizard class features for the cost of one single feat. Given that the wizard is already one of the most powerful class. This is a bit the same effect that the Druid's animal companion compare to the Fighter class. And the Warlock blast is a SLA which allow spell resistance, the reserve feats are supernatural abilities which don't allow it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The thing is that a blast reserve feat like Acidic Splatter or Fiery Burst gives you half of the Warlock class features in addition of your Wizard class features for the cost of one single feat. Given that the wizard is already one of the most powerful class. This is a bit the same effect that the Druid's animal companion compare to the Fighter class. And the Warlock blast is a SLA which allow spell resistance, the reserve feats are supernatural abilities which don't allow it.

Vitriolic Blast ignores SR as well. And as a Warlock, you get to blast, you also get other at-will SLA's as well. Things like Chilling Tentacles.

The point I'm making, if you focus that hard on your reserve feats... you might as well go Warlock and save yourself the pain, because you will be crippling those other class abilities to focus on something so minor.

[Petrocorus]

Vitriolic Blast ignores SR as well. And as a Warlock, you get to blast, you also get other at-will SLA's as well. Things like Chilling Tentacles.

The point I'm making, if you focus that hard on your reserve feats... you might as well go Warlock and save yourself the pain, because you will be crippling those other class abilities to focus on something so minor.

Oh, Ok, i didn't understand your point this way.

[Lightlawbliss]

in my mind, a sor with no feats is still better then a warlock in pure power. granted, this isn't a build to play for power so it is something to atleast consider.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

in my mind, a sor with no feats is still better then a warlock in pure power. granted, this isn't a build to play for power so it is something to atleast consider.

Not if he can't cast his spells for fear of nerfing his reserve feats...

[NeoPhoenix0]

Not if he can't cast his spells for fear of nerfing his reserve feats...

Why would he fear casting spells when a sorcerer only need his highest level spell slot open to take advantage of all of his reserve feats no matter what level the spells are?

[Jack_Simth]

Why would he fear casting spells when a sorcerer only need his highest level spell slot open to take advantage of all of his reserve feats no matter what level the spells are?
Oddly, the way it's written, if you're an 8th level Sorcerer with Fireball (3rd level spell) and Dimension Door (your one 4th level spell) with the Fiery Burst reserve feat... you can't Fiery Burst anymore when you run out of 3rd level spells, even if you have 4th level slots still available.

Yeah, it's written oddly.

[Deophaun]

Oddly, the way it's written, if you're an 8th level Sorcerer with Fireball (3rd level spell) and Dimension Door (your one 4th level spell) with the Fiery Burst reserve feat... you can't Fiery Burst anymore when you run out of 3rd level spells, even if you have 4th level slots still available.
I think they're going with the "Heightened X counts as a spell known" interpretation, in which case you just need the highest spell slot.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I found what I was looking for:

From "Simple Q&A D&D 3.5 (by RAW) XXII":

- My question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14546132&postcount=987)

- Answer by Curmudgeon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14546713&postcount=988)

Good to see that I come to the same conclusion as Curmudgeon.


Oddly, the way it's written, if you're an 8th level Sorcerer with Fireball (3rd level spell) and Dimension Door (your one 4th level spell) with the Fiery Burst reserve feat... you can't Fiery Burst anymore when you run out of 3rd level spells, even if you have 4th level slots still available.

Yeah, it's written oddly.

But still works so long as you have Heighten Spell. Very, very oddly written.

[ArqArturo]

A sorcerer with any of the qualifying spells and heighten spell can always use reserve feats to their maximum effect, for starters.

Under this same assumption, a Warmage could also potentially master Reserve abilities?.

[Segev]

any for which his spell list qualified him, at least.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Oddly, the way it's written, if you're an 8th level Sorcerer with Fireball (3rd level spell) and Dimension Door (your one 4th level spell) with the Fiery Burst reserve feat... you can't Fiery Burst anymore when you run out of 3rd level spells, even if you have 4th level slots still available.

Yeah, it's written oddly.

could you point out where it says that? It says very specifically the opposite. If he has no level 3 slots but does have a level 4 slot and has fiery burst and fireball, then he can use fiery burst.


...A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher....

[Larkas]

I think you're confusing apples and oranges here, guys. We have two very different propositions here. They can be codified like this:

1 - If I have a 2nd level spell, can cast 6th level spells and have Heighten Spell, but have expended all my 6th level spells, can I use that combination to qualify for a reserve feat as if I had a 6th level spell?

2 - If I have a 2nd level spell, can cast 6th level spells and have Heighten Spell, and have NOT expended all my 6th level spells, can I use that combination to qualify for a reserve feat as if I had a 6th level spell?

According to Curmudgeon, and I happen to agree with him, the answer to 1 is no, but the answer to 2 is yes!

[Zanos]

I think you're confusing apples and oranges here, guys. We have two very different propositions here. They can be codified like this:

1 - If I have a 2nd level spell, can cast 6th level spells and have Heighten Spell, but have expended all my 6th level spells, can I use that combination to qualify for a reserve feat as if I had a 6th level spell?

2 - If I have a 2nd level spell, can cast 6th level spells and have Heighten Spell, and have NOT expended all my 6th level spells, can I use that combination to qualify for a reserve feat as if I had a 6th level spell?

According to Curmudgeon, and I happen to agree with him, the answer to 1 is no, but the answer to 2 is yes!
I agree with your and Curmudgeons interpretation.

[Jack_Simth]

could you point out where it says that? It says very specifically the opposite. If he has no level 3 slots but does have a level 4 slot and has fiery burst and fireball, then he can use fiery burst.

Huh. I appear to have missed the 'or higher' aspect. It seems you're right.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, if you start picking up spells which aren't as useful just to qualify for reserve feats, a Sorcerer can -really- cripple himself in a manner that is difficult to compensate for: in his Spells Known list.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Also, if you start picking up spells which aren't as useful just to qualify for reserve feats, a Sorcerer can -really- cripple himself in a manner that is difficult to compensate for: in his Spells Known list.

Warmage into rainbow servant maybe. It solves the spells known problem and rainbow servant alleviates a warmage's limited spell list.

[Jack_Simth]

Warmage into rainbow servant maybe. It solves the spells known problem and rainbow servant alleviates a warmage's limited spell list.
Once you hit the capstone, yes. Then there's the text vs. table discrepancy.

[aleucard]

It's not what the feats say. Instead, it's the general rule for how reserve feats work:

Technically, a Wizard 19/Sorcerer 1 that learned meteor swarm could use a 9d6 Fiery Blast without even preparing the spell as long as he kept one 9th-level spell slot open.

It's stuff like this that tempts me to houserule that all wizards have a starting Int of 2. Just so wizards can glimpse a tiny sliver of the hate that WotC must have had towards sorcerers.

How the Hell...? Unless if I'm missing something, there's several problems with this one.

1: When multiclassing those two together (and any other combo of caster), their spell lists in their entirety (known and slots) are entirely separate.

2: A level 1 Sorcerer can only cast up to level 1 spells, except with things like Precocious Apprentice adding a future spell slot.

3: Assuming that #2 is ignored, you need a Cha score of 28+ to get a level 9 bonus slot, and I find it hard to believe that a wizard would put in that much effort when it could be better spent on Int.

How exactly do you justify this working?

[Petrocorus]

Now, to get back to the core of the topic. How many and what reserve feat would a reserve master have?

I believe to blast ones, Acidic Splatter and Fiery Burst for different threats.
Summon Elemental for a bit of versatility.
And Dimensional Jaunt for mobility.

[ArqArturo]

Once you hit the capstone, yes. Then there's the text vs. table discrepancy.

And that is why I usually go on the safe side, and not consider Rainbow Servant.

[Deophaun]

How exactly do you justify this working?
Because reserve feats make no mention of discriminating between what slots are used.
And screwed that one up. I really need to keep reading.

Never mind.