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tzar1990
2013-08-04, 01:52 AM
Fighter Overhaul

Design Goals:

The first design goal was to give the fighter something more interesting to do in combat. Fighters can be interesting from a build perspective, certainly – Two-handed maulers are certainly different from crit-fishers with paired kukri – but in-game, they all too often wind up being one-trick ponies, whose trick is hitting things until they stop moving. As such, a variety of viable tactical options should be presented.

The second design goal was to give a sense of progress and urgency in combat – I find that it's more fun and interesting if you have to worry about conserving power and getting the best bang for your buck, rather than throwing your best move out there again and again.

The third goal was to maintain the core idea of the fighter. He's not calling upon the totems of his people like a barbarian, or the power of sheer Goodness, like a paladin. He's just a dude who knows how to fight – and he is damn well the best at it. Additionally, unlike the wizards and other spellcasters who risk blowing their load early and needing to rest eight hours to regain spells, he should be able to fight all day with nothing more than a few small breaks.

This is a work in progress: I need to balance talents against each other, and come up with more talents (at the moment, I have very little for archery support, and few talents badass enough to qualify for Advanced). Any feedback or advice you can give is very much appreciated!

Edits in red


Key Features:

Skill Points: The fighter receives 4+Int Modifier skill points per level, and adds Acrobatics and Perception to his skill list.

Stamina Pool: A Fighter has a pool of Stamina Points equal to his level plus his Constitution modifier. These can be spent to fuel Fighter Talents, and regained in the following manner:

Rest: While resting, a fighter regains one Stamina Point per minute
Pushing your limit: By choosing to gain the Fatigued condition at the end of their turn, a fighter may recover 1d6 points of of Stamina. If already fatigued, they may choose to become exhausted at the end of their turn to recover 1d12 points of Stamina. These conditions may only be recovered through rest, not through magical healing.


Fighter Talents: Rather than gaining a bonus feat every second level, the Fighter gains a Fighter Talent every level.

Combine Talents: Sometimes, multiple Fighter Talents may be used in a single round. Advanced Talents may be used only if the player has not activated any Talents previously this round. Moderate Talents may be activated provided the player has not activated any Advanced or Moderate talents previously this round. Basic talents may always be used, provided the player has activated no Advanced talents this round.

Identify Weakness: A Fighter may add his class level to all Knowledge checks made to determine a specific monster's weakness, and may make those rolls untrained. This feature replaces Bravery.

Raise the Army: In addition to being a skilled warrior himself, a fighter must also know how to raise others up to his level. Starting at level 4, a fighter may train a volunteer in the ways of war. For each full day spent training, the target may convert one level in Aristocrat, Adept, Expert, or Peasant into one level in Warrior. Beginning at level 8, the Fighter may target up to [level] individuals at once with his feature. At level 12, he gains the ability to train Warriors into Fighters.

Add the following paragraph to the end of the Fighter's Weapon Training class feature: Additionally, a fighter may also provide his companions with weapon training. By spending at least three hours in training with one or more companions, he may grant them proficiency with a single weapon for a period of one week. This weapon must be included in the fighter's selected weapon group. This ability may affect up to [level] individuals per use.





Fighter Talents

Basic:

Bunker Down
Prerequisite: Level 5
Cost: 2 Stamina
Type: Immediate Action
Trigger: You are caught within an Area of Effect spell or ability that allows for a reflex save.
Description: Treat your full AC as though it were the results of your reflex save against that spell or ability.

Counterattack
Prerequisite: Level 3
Cost: 2 Stamina
Type: Immediate
Trigger: An enemy within reach makes an attack against you.
Description: You may make an attack of opportunity against the attacking enemy. Your attack is resolved after theirs.
Special: This talent may be repurchased at level 12. The repurchase allows your Attack of Opportunity to resolve prior to the attack against you. Using the talent in this manner imposes a 4 Stamina surcharge.

Defend Ally
Prerequisite: None
Cost: 1 Stamina
Type: Immediate Action
Trigger: An attack either originates from or passes through a square adjacent to you
Description: You may substitute your AC for the AC of the attack's target. This ability may not be used against attacks targeting Touch AC.

Deflect:
Prerequisite: Level 3
Cost: 1 Stamina
Type: Immediate Action
Trigger: You are targeted with a non-magical ranged attack.
Description: You automatically avoid that attack. This talent suffers a 1 Stamina surcharge against touch attacks.
Special: At level 8, this talent may be repurchased. If repurchased, the user may also deflect magical ranged attacks and, at the DM's discretion, some supernatural abilities and spells (such as a blue dragon's line of Lightning, or a Lightning Bolt spell).
A second repurchase at level 15 allows the user to redirect the blocked attack at an enemy within range. Using the talent in this manner imposes a 4 Stamina surcharge.

Desperate Throw
Prerequisite: None
Cost: 1 Stamina
Type: Free Action
Trigger: Any
Description: For your next attack, treat the weapon you wield as a throwing weapon with a range increment of 15 feet. If it is a two-handed weapon, instead treat it as though it had a range increment of 10 feet.
Special: At level 5, this Talent may be repurchased. If repurchased, the talent remains active until the beginning of their next turn, rather than their next attack. Using it in this manner imposes a 1 stamina surcharge.

Follow-Through
Prerequisite: Level 4
Cost: 2 Stamina
Type: Free Action
Trigger: The user deals blunt or non-lethal damage with a one- or two-handed weapon.
Description: Knock the target back [Strength Score] feet, rounded down to the nearest five. If using a one-handed weapon, subtract five feet from the distance.

Open the Gap
Prerequisite: Level 3
Cost: 3 Stamina
Type: Swift Action
Trigger: The user damages an enemy with a standard attack or a full attack
Description: One adjacent ally may make an Attack of Opportunity against the damaged enemy
Special: This talent may be repurchased at level 9, allowing all adjacent allies to make an attack of opportunity against the damaged enemy. Using it in this manner causes it to be treated as a Moderate Talent, and imposes a 1 stamina surcharge. A second repurchase at level 15 allows all allies within 30 feet to make an attack of opportunity. Using it in this manner causes it to be treated as an Advanced talent, and imposes a 3 stamina surcharge.

Parry
Prerequisite: None
Cost: 1 Stamina
Type: Free Action
Trigger: Any
Description: Add your Strength Modifier to your AC against the next attack directed at you.
Special: This Talent may be repurchased at level 8. If repurchased, it may be activated after the attack is rolled, allowing the player to parry attacks that would otherwise strike him. Using it in this manner imposes a 2 stamina surcharge.

Precise Strike
Prerequisite: None
Cost: 1 Stamina
Type: Free Action
Trigger: Any
Description: Add your Dexterity Modifier to damage on your next attack
Special: This talent may be repurchased at level 8. If repurchased, the player may activate it twice on the same attack roll. Another repurchase at level 15 allows it to be activated up to four times.

Strike Weakness
Prerequisite: None
Cost: 1 Stamina
Type: Free Action
Trigger: You make an attack
Description: Ignore up to (Fighter Level) points of damage resistance possesed by the target.
Special: At level 7, this talent automatically upgrades. While using a two-handed weapon, the user may also ignore up to [Fighter Level] points of Hardness possessed by the target.

Moderate

Disarming Riposte
Prerequisite: Level 6
Cost: 2 Stamina
Type: Free Action
Trigger: An enemy attacks you, but fails to overcome your AC
Description: You may make a disarm check against your enemy as an attack of opportunity.
Special: This Talent may be repurchased at level 12. If repurchased, the user may make their disarm attempt prior to the resolution of the attack against them. Using it in this manner imposes a 4 Stamina surcharge.

Joint Crusher
Prerequisite: Level 8
Cost: 3 Stamina
Type: Standard Action
Trigger: The user is wielding a blunt weapon
Description: Make a single attack at your full attack bonus. If it lands, the user smashes one of the target's knees or elbows. Destroying the knee of a target quarters the speed of a bipedal target, or halves the speed of a quadrupedal target. Destroying the elbow of a target forces them to make a stamina check (DC of 10 + your level) each round or drop anything held in that arm. This effect lasts until the target receives an amount of healing equal to the damage dealt with the attack.

Parrying Stance
Prerequisite: Level 7, Parry
Cost: 3 Stamina
Type: Move Action
Trigger: The user is equipped with a one-handed weapon or with a shield
Description: Make a CMB check. You may treat the check result as though it were your AC until the beginning of your next turn. If no enemy attacks you before the start of your next turn, you are refunded two Stamina points.
Special: This Talent may be repurchased at level 12. If repurchased, the user may activate it as an Immediate Action, rather than a move action. Using it in this manner imposes a 2 Stamina surcharge on the talent.

Pinning Blow:
Prerequisite: Level 6
Cost: 2 Stamina
Type: Standard Action
Trigger: You are equipped with a Piercing weapon
Description: Make an attack at your full attack bonus. If the attack is successful, resolve damage normally and make a strength check. Your target is pinned to the ground or an adjacent object so long as your weapon remains embedded within them. They may escape either by succeeding at an opposed strength check against your result, by destroying the weapon, or by dealing enough damage to the object they are pinned to to grant it the broken condition. Attempting to free themselves by making a strength check causes them to take [weapon's damage dice] points of damage.

Ripping Wound:
Prerequisite: Level 7
Cost: 3 Stamina
Type: Standard Action
Trigger: You are equipped with a Slashing weapon
Description: Make an attack at your full attack bonus. If the attack is successful, the attack inflicts your weapon's damage dice in Bleed damage upon the target.

Scything Charge:
Prerequisite: Level 3
Cost: 2 Stamina
Type: Standard Action
Trigger: Any
Description: Make a charge attack. You may make a single attack at your full attack bonus against an enemy you pass during the charge.
Special: This Talent may be repurchased at level 10. If repurchased, the user instead make [dexterity modifier] attacks against adjacent enemies during their charge. No enemy may be targeted more than once. Using this Talent in this manner imposes a 2 Stamina surcharge.

Swift Leap
Prerequisite: None
Cost: 1 Stamina
Type: Swift Action
Trigger: Any
Description: Make an Acrobatics check for a long jump as a swift action (normally, jumping is a move action). If you use this at or before the beginning of your turn, and you moved at least ten feet on your previous turn, you count as having had a running start.

Take the Blow
Prerequisite: None
Cost: 2 Stamina
Type: Immediate Action
Trigger: An adjacent ally would be hit by an attack
Description: You switch places with your ally. The attack is resolved as though it targeted you, rather than your ally.

To the Ground
Prerequisite: Follow-Through, Level 7
Cost: 2 Stamina
Type: Free Action
Trigger: Knocking an enemy at least five feet back
Description: Make an opposed strength check against the enemy. If you win, the enemy is knocked prone. Additionally, if the enemy was flung into another target, that target must also make an opposed strength check against you, at a +5 bonus, or be knocked prone.

Advanced

Flawless Strike
Prerequisite: Level 6
Cost: 3 Stamina
Type: Standard Action
Trigger: Any
Description: Make a single attack at your full attack bonus. You may not make combat manoeuvres during this attack. Your attack targets touch AC rather than armoured AC
Special: This talent may be repurchased at level 12. If repurchased, the user may target an AC of 0 rather than touch AC. This imposes a 2 Stamina surcharge on this talent.

Flawless [Manoeuvre]
Prerequisite: Level 12, Flawless Strike
Cost: 5 Stamina
Type: Free Action
Trigger: Activating named manoeuvre
Description: When you purchase this Talent, name a single combat manoeuvre. When you use that manoeuvre, you may activate this talent. You may target a CMD of 0, rather than the target's CMD.

Flawless Defense
Prerequisite: Level 9
Cost: 3 Stamina
Type: Immediate Action
Trigger: An attack targets your AC or your Touch AC
Description: The attack misses. This Talent functions even against attacks that automatically hit, although it suffers an additional 2 Stamina surcharge when activated in response to a critical hit.

Occasional Sage
2013-08-04, 03:00 AM
At what level can the different Talent ranks be taken?

Scything Charge is gross at any level, but is RIDICULOUS at... oh, tenth and below. It gets better if the extra attacks come from your AoOs.

How do you address PF's fragmenting of maneuver feat chains? This was made better by the faster feat progression of the system, but without bonus feats I can't see Fighters taking more than one.

Deflect and Strike Weakness look to be the never-not-takens in the Basics; Flawless Defense in the Advanced look the same.

Can Flawless Strike be combined with the Vital Strike chain?

Identify Weakness is very, very clever.

tzar1990
2013-08-04, 03:12 AM
At what level can the different Talent ranks be taken?

Scything Charge is gross at any level, but is RIDICULOUS at... oh, tenth and below. It gets better if the extra attacks come from your AoOs.

How do you address PF's fragmenting of maneuver feat chains? This was made better by the faster feat progression of the system, but without bonus feats I can't see Fighters taking more than one.

the idea with the talents was that you could learn any at any level, with the balance coming from the fact that you can't combine Advanced talents with anything at all, and Moderate talents can only be combined with basic talents, not each other. I think I might put a prerequisite on the more powerful talents, though (or alternatively, have the talents upgrade themselves as you level, rather than being relatively fixed)

Making the extra attacks come from AoOs is a reasonable idea, and it might be worth it to make it Advanced, to prevent players from augmenting it with Basic talents, or to increase the cost. I didn't think it was all that bad, though - you provoke AoOs as normal, you only get extra attacks against enemies you pass on the way (not your target), and you can only hit each enemy once. It was intended to be useful, but quite situational.

The point about the feat chains is a good one. Maybe give back some bonus feats, or alternatively, give a class feature that removes the AoO provoking on all combat maneuvers.

Ailowynn
2013-08-04, 12:14 PM
Some thoughts:

First, I think that if you fatigue or exhaust yourself for Stamina points, you should get a flat amount (maybe four and six, respectively). Yes, you can roll awesomely, but you can just as easily exhaust yourself--which is pretty nasty--and get one point back.

Secondly. I really like the concept you have here with the Stamina pool. Very clever and it makes sense.

Thirdly...what can this new fighter do outside of combat? Yes, he can now do a bit more with skills, but he can't buff other's skill checks, he doesn't have any utility tricks, he's useless at negotiating, etc, etc. You have the class a LOT more options in combat, though, and good job with that.

Novawurmson
2013-08-04, 02:30 PM
I posted something very similar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295426) earlier this week. Feel free to dig through it for ideas (though you might want to look at the Google Docs files - I've changed quite a bit from what's posted on the forums).

Here's my quick fix for the maneuver trees:


Sudden Maneuver

Action: Immediate

Cost: 1 focus (see text)
The soldier’s next attempted combat maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The combat maneuver must be attempted before the end of the soldier’s next turn or it is wasted. If the soldier already would not provoke an attack of opportunity (for example, a soldier with the Improved Trip feat attempting to trip), she can instead spend any amount of focus to gain a bonus on the maneuver of an equal amount to the focus spent. The total amount of focus spent may not be more than her soldier level.

tzar1990
2013-08-04, 03:04 PM
Some thoughts:

First, I think that if you fatigue or exhaust yourself for Stamina points, you should get a flat amount (maybe four and six, respectively). Yes, you can roll awesomely, but you can just as easily exhaust yourself--which is pretty nasty--and get one point back.

Secondly. I really like the concept you have here with the Stamina pool. Very clever and it makes sense.

Thirdly...what can this new fighter do outside of combat? Yes, he can now do a bit more with skills, but he can't buff other's skill checks, he doesn't have any utility tricks, he's useless at negotiating, etc, etc. You have the class a LOT more options in combat, though, and good job with that.

I'll consider making it a flat amount, but I felt it was more interesting if the amount varied - I'll think about it.

You're right about out-of-combat utility. Honestly, though, I'm not too sure what to do for it - Paladin's have healing and diplomacy embedded in their fluff, rangers are obviously good at tracking and wilderness stuff, but the Fighter doesn't seem to have any natural associations besides killing stuff.

Maybe an ability to upgrade Peasants to Warriors, and Warriors to Fighters? Training other people to fight better seems like a very Fighter-appropriate thing. And maybe give him some kind of skill/ability to represent tactical knowledge?

Invader
2013-08-04, 03:18 PM
This looks like a really good concept.

For out of combat utility they could retrain other classes weapon proficiencies maybe? I'd also consider increasing the time OOC that they regain points since you have a mechanic that lets them regain them immediately. Perhaps 2 per hour of rest and your whole pool for a full 8 hours?

tzar1990
2013-08-04, 03:43 PM
This looks like a really good concept.

For out of combat utility they could retrain other classes weapon proficiencies maybe? I'd also consider increasing the time OOC that they regain points since you have a mechanic that lets them regain them immediately. Perhaps 2 per hour of rest and your whole pool for a full 8 hours?

Helping to retrain other people's weapon proficiencies certainly sounds like a good idea! Maybe have it as part of the Weapon Specialization thing? Any weapon you're specialized in, you can train people with.

I'm actually trying to avoid the whole "20-minute workday" issue with this, which is why they regain points so quickly out of combat - they need a breather after a fight, but they're not losing anything too permanent. The immediate regain mechanisms are mostly there for dramatic last stands - because the conditions they inflict can only be healed by rest, they're there for desperation attacks when all else fails.

Keneth
2013-08-05, 04:16 AM
I can't really comment on the class as a whole because I haven't had time to read everything, but something poked me in the eye as I was scrolling through it. Firstly, the automatic hit talents are too extreme, even a magus can only resolve an attack as a touch attack, and even then only at 9th level. As it stands, a 2nd level fighter will pretty much obliterate any but the toughest characters of equal level by walking to them and scoring an automatic hit with a power attack. Secondly, maneuvers are attacks themselves, so your flawless maneuver talents are redundant because by your RAW, you can perform a maneuver as part of flawless strike.

A fighter does need some love, but that's no reason to go to extremes. His abilities should be comparable to rage powers, magus arcanas, and other similar abilities. They also need level requirements.

tzar1990
2013-08-05, 01:09 PM
I can't really comment on the class as a whole because I haven't had time to read everything, but something poked me in the eye as I was scrolling through it. Firstly, the automatic hit talents are too extreme, even a magus can only resolve an attack as a touch attack, and even then only at 9th level. As it stands, a 2nd level fighter will pretty much obliterate any but the toughest characters of equal level by walking to them and scoring an automatic hit with a power attack. Secondly, maneuvers are attacks themselves, so your flawless maneuver talents are redundant because by your RAW, you can perform a maneuver as part of flawless strike.

A fighter does need some love, but that's no reason to go to extremes. His abilities should be comparable to rage powers, magus arcanas, and other similar abilities. They also need level requirements.

Thanks so much for the feedback!

What if I made the auto-hit powers unable to be enhanced by Power Attack and similar things? I recognize that auto-hit is more powerful than abilities from other classes, but I honestly feel that Fighters should be better than other classes at just straight-up hitting things.

Can you think of a wording that would prevent Flawless Strike from using combat maneuvers - it's meant to give you just a single, ordinary attack, nothing more.

Part of the reason I've gone to extremes is that I'm balancing it around the old Book of Nine Swords classes, with the martial arts flavour stripped out in favor of being just that good at fighting.

As for level requirements, that's a good idea - I'll try to go through and either add level requirements to the Talents, or make them weaker at first, but automatically upgrade as you level up. I'm also considering reducing the number of Talents that fighters get from one per level to one for each bonus feat they'd normally get. I'd really rather keep the number of talents, though - this way, like spellcasters, they get new and relevant combat options every level, rather than just passive bonuses.

Keneth
2013-08-05, 01:50 PM
I recognize that auto-hit is more powerful than abilities from other classes, but I honestly feel that Fighters should be better than other classes at just straight-up hitting things.

Better than a high-powered gish that only has to touch? Seems a bit far-fetched. There's also the issue of whether or not "automatic hit" means it can bypass concealment, mirror image, etc. Changing an attack into a touch attack pretty much guarantees a hit for a medium BAB progression. A full BAB class should be able to use it even more efficiently while avoiding all the pitfalls.


Can you think of a wording that would prevent Flawless Strike from using combat maneuvers - it's meant to give you just a single, ordinary attack, nothing more.

Instead of trying to find the right wording that would separate normal attacks from combat maneuver attacks, you should just note explicitly that combat maneuvers can't be used as part of flawless strike.

tzar1990
2013-08-05, 02:12 PM
Better than a high-powered gish that only has to touch? Seems a bit far-fetched. There's also the issue of whether or not "automatic hit" means it can bypass concealment, mirror image, etc. Changing an attack into a touch attack pretty much guarantees a hit for a medium BAB progression. A full BAB class should be able to use it even more efficiently while avoiding all the pitfalls.

Good point! I'll switch it to attacking either their touch AC, or treating them as though they had an AC of 0. But yes, it's better than the Magus when it comes down to just hitting them - after all, the Magus gets to apply spells in addition to hitting them, and a 10d6 shocking grasp to the face in addition to the attack damage is pretty darn good, even compared to a fighter's power attack.




Instead of trying to find the right wording that would separate normal attacks from combat maneuver attacks, you should just note explicitly that combat maneuvers can't be used as part of flawless strike.

Okay, I'll do that for the next revision!

Perseus
2013-08-05, 02:39 PM
Good point! I'll switch it to attacking either their touch AC, or treating them as though they had an AC of 0. But yes, it's better than the Magus when it comes down to just hitting them - after all, the Magus gets to apply spells in addition to hitting them, and a 10d6 shocking grasp to the face in addition to the attack damage is pretty darn good, even compared to a fighter's power attack.

Okay, I'll do that for the next revision!

You need to move this to homebrew.

Ailowynn
2013-08-05, 02:58 PM
I think to make an effective fighter class, you have to give the fighter flavor. The way I see the fighter is this: he is a master of combat. He is a tactically-minded person that, through years of training, has become the pinnacle of martial ability. He's like a wizard, while a barbarian is like a sorcerer.

With that in mind, I'd say that tactical stuff would go hand in hand with teamwork feats (some of which are good outside of combat). I'd also give the fighter some sort of buffing ability to represent him helping out his buddies, and maybe even some healing abilities (can perform first aid).

Keneth
2013-08-05, 03:42 PM
But yes, it's better than the Magus when it comes down to just hitting them - after all, the Magus gets to apply spells in addition to hitting them, and a 10d6 shocking grasp to the face in addition to the attack damage is pretty darn good, even compared to a fighter's power attack.

Yeah, but we're not talking about damage, that's a separate issue entirely. If a magic-powered attack doesn't have the ability to hit automatically, why would a mundane character be able to do so? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for melee having nice things, but magic is there to do what mundane abilities can't. Unless you're saying it's sword magic, in which case we're down to what the extent of magic is in a similar case, and that's either true strike or precise strike.

If you want to increase the damage output, just make the attack an automatic critical threat (in addition to being treated as a touch attack or whatever).

tzar1990
2013-08-06, 12:45 AM
Yeah, but we're not talking about damage, that's a separate issue entirely. If a magic-powered attack doesn't have the ability to hit automatically, why would a mundane character be able to do so? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for melee having nice things, but magic is there to do what mundane abilities can't. Unless you're saying it's sword magic, in which case we're down to what the extent of magic is in a similar case, and that's either true strike or precise strike.

If you want to increase the damage output, just make the attack an automatic critical threat (in addition to being treated as a touch attack or whatever).

Ah, what we have here is a fundamental difference of opinion, then. I feel that there should be some things that Extraordinary characters and abilities can do that Supernatural characters and abilities can't. I'm, personally, all for non-magical individuals doing something blatantly impossible through sheer, overwhelming skill. Someone with enough ranks in Swim should be able to swim up a waterfall. Someone with enough ranks in Acrobatics should be able to balance on a single leaf or the surface of a lake. And someone with enough practice in "applying swords to faces" should be able to strike right through armor and dexterity like it wasn't there.

Also, I'm currently modifying the talents to have both prerequisites and optional upgrades/repurchases.

Larkas
2013-08-06, 06:53 AM
I'd rewrite this as such:

Identify Weakness: The fighter may add his class level as a bonus to knowledge skills and make checks in them untrained, but only to identify the weaknesses of enemies. This ability replaces Bravery.

This way, the fighter still has an incentive to invest in knowledge skills! I'd also consider adding the "monster knowledge" skills as class skills for the fighter, though that is less critical in PF.


Ah, what we have here is a fundamental difference of opinion, then. I feel that there should be some things that Extraordinary characters and abilities can do that Supernatural characters and abilities can't. I'm, personally, all for non-magical individuals doing something blatantly impossible through sheer, overwhelming skill. Someone with enough ranks in Swim should be able to swim up a waterfall. Someone with enough ranks in Acrobatics should be able to balance on a single leaf or the surface of a lake. And someone with enough practice in "applying swords to faces" should be able to strike right through armor and dexterity like it wasn't there.

Quoted for truth!

Keneth
2013-08-06, 08:11 AM
And someone with enough practice in "applying swords to faces" should be able to strike right through armor and dexterity like it wasn't there.

"Enough practice" being the operative phrase here. It's a DC 80 Swim check to swim up a waterfall, which is rightfully called an epic skill check, and even then magic will help you do that sooner and better. So yes, so long as we're talking about run of the mill mundane characters, I believe there should be clear restrictions (i.e. the rules of nature) that limit their capabilities until epic/mythic levels. Now if this was a capstone ability, I might have led it slide, but as it stands, it just seems out of place.

Larkas
2013-08-06, 08:58 AM
"Enough practice" being the operative phrase here. It's a DC 80 Swim check to swim up a waterfall, which is rightfully called an epic skill check, and even then magic will help you do that sooner and better. So yes, so long as we're talking about run of the mill mundane characters, I believe there should be clear restrictions (i.e. the rules of nature) that limit their capabilities until epic/mythic levels. Now if this was a capstone ability, I might have led it slide, but as it stands, it just seems out of place.

Mundanes must be epic in order to do something that spellcasters can do at low levels. The same spellcasters that, at low-mid levels, can do the same that a mundane at low levels can do. Yeah, I think that I can see why the balance problems in the game came to be in the first place. No offense meant, but I think that you're missing the point. Mundanes at 6+ are already epic, real world-wise, or at least should be. Spellcasters certainly are. The fact that the game designers failed to realize that is simply a miscalculation, or even a preconception. As I understand, this fighter fix is an attempt at rebalancing the fighter. You can't achieve that by making the same perceived design mistakes as the original creators of the class.

tzar1990
2013-08-07, 01:00 AM
Mundanes must be epic in order to do something that spellcasters can do at low levels. The same spellcasters that, at low-mid levels, can do the same that a mundane at low levels can do. Yeah, I think that I can see why the balance problems in the game came to be in the first place. No offense meant, but I think that you're missing the point. Mundanes at 6+ are already epic, real world-wise, or at least should be. Spellcasters certainly are. The fact that the game designers failed to realize that is simply a miscalculation, or even a preconception. As I understand, this fighter fix is an attempt at rebalancing the fighter. You can't achieve that by making the same perceived design mistakes as the original creators of the class.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I intended - I'm of the opinion that there are some things that magic should definitely be better at - Area of Effects, transportation, summoning, etc. But there are some things that magic simply can't compete with raw skill in. And hitting people is one of those areas.

tzar1990
2013-08-11, 02:45 AM
Okay, some of the class features have been modified to incorporate some suggestions.

And if anyone has any ideas at all for advanced talents, please let me know - I have to idea what else to do.