5th Edition Forgotten realms, What do you look forward to?

[happycrow]

As a medievalist, I tend to find the Forgotten Realms hopelessly generic. There's a tremendous amount of lore, but very little *culture.* Of course, part of this is the divine setup, since the mortals are all Ao's little playthings.

Are there orcs with different cultures? If so, why, or why not?
Lizard men, for example. They're everywhere. Do they ever *do anything,* or are they just there for low-level adventures? In FR, they're pathetic, but as a DM, I could run a lizardman-centric campaign, and have a group of players eating it up. They'd never play another drow again.

If I had one wish-list for FR, it would be for cultures to become far more distinct, and for all of the races (the bewildering array of them!) to be used to their potential, rather than "first rank races" getting fleshed out, and "everybody else" basically just being xp on the hoof.

[Chambers]

As a medievalist, I tend to find the Forgotten Realms hopelessly generic. There's a tremendous amount of lore, but very little *culture.* Of course, part of this is the divine setup, since the mortals are all Ao's little playthings.

Are there orcs with different cultures? If so, why, or why not?
Lizard men, for example. They're everywhere. Do they ever *do anything,* or are they just there for low-level adventures? In FR, they're pathetic, but as a DM, I could run a lizardman-centric campaign, and have a group of players eating it up. They'd never play another drow again.

If I had one wish-list for FR, it would be for cultures to become far more distinct, and for all of the races (the bewildering array of them!) to be used to their potential, rather than "first rank races" getting fleshed out, and "everybody else" basically just being xp on the hoof.


Culture is everywhere in the Realms. Take Orcs for example. There is an Orc kingdom (yes, kingdom) in the North. King Obould Many-Arrows sieged and conquered the dwarven fortress Citadel Felbarr. The subrace of Gray Orcs were gated en masse from another plane (an orc world) to fight in what would be called the Orcgate Wars. There is a community named Phent in the nation of Thesk that has a large number of Orcs living peacefully there with other humanoids. All three groups are distinct from each other. An Orc from the Kingdom of Many-Arrows would not be the same, culturally, as an Orc from Phent, or a survivor of the Orcgate Wars.

I don't know what distinction you're making between lore and culture. As I see it the lore in the Realms is describing the history of its people; culture is necessarily a part of that.

[Felhammer]

Pretty much ever race has varying cultures spread out across the continent. Even the most generic race - humans - have 7 major ethnic groups. The issue is that, oft times, those cultures aren't given a lot of page count in the main campaign setting book.

[Chambers]

Pretty much ever race has varying cultures spread out across the continent. Even the most generic race - humans - have 7 major ethnic groups. The issue is that, oft times, those cultures aren't given a lot of page count in the main campaign setting book.

Sure, but space is limited in a main setting book. There have been a fair number of regional setting books released that go into great detail about local regions. Shining South, Silver Marches, City of Splendors, Serpent Kingdoms, Champions of Valor, Lords of Darkness, Unapproachable East, etc.

[jedipotter]

Are there orcs with different cultures? If so, why, or why not?
Lizard men, for example. They're everywhere. Do they ever *do anything,* or are they just there for low-level adventures? In FR, they're pathetic, but as a DM, I could run a lizardman-centric campaign, and have a group of players eating it up. They'd never play another drow again.

With something close to 30 years of lore, there are lots of different cultures in the Realms.

[AuraTwilight]

With something close to 30 years of lore, there are lots of different cultures in the Realms.

Except no, there's not. There's a lot of RACES and CIVILIZATIONS, but CULTURE is something different.

[Chambers]

Except no, there's not. There's a lot of RACES and CIVILIZATIONS, but CULTURE is something different.

Please explain the difference as you see it.

[AuraTwilight]

Just because a civilization in a fictional work exists doesn't mean it has an actual culture. Are these civilizations sufficiently different from each other so as not to be another Nation of Hats? Are Races and Civilizations treated as synonymous ("It's written in Orc" "This is the Elf country")? Do the cultures have enough details that you can run an entire campaign inside a single culture without needing to leave it beyond short jaunts?

[Chambers]

With over 30 years worth of published material I'd say Yes to all of the above (except being non-synonymous).

[TuggyNE]

With over 30 years worth of published material I'd say Yes to all of the above (except being non-synonymous).

Just because there's a whole ton of stuff available doesn't automatically mean it meets any of those tests. Please substantiate?

[Chambers]

Take the city of Waterdeep for an example. It's a metropolis with its own Megadungeon (Undermountain) and thieves city (Skullport). There are two box sets for it, a soft cover book (Waterdeep and the North), a hardcover book (City of Splendors), and a Volo's travel guide. All told there's hundreds of pages of information on the city.

[Felhammer]

Depends on how much depth you require for your criteria.

I don't think every culture possesses enough depth but many do. There are definitely points on the map that can be summed up as "Orcs be there" but there are other points where Orcs have a fleshed out culture (especially the Many Arrows Orcs and the Gray Orcs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a)).

Part of the problem is that D&D doesn't focus as heavily on culture as it does on other aspects of the world (politics, adventure locals, interesting NPCs, etc.).

Having said that, the 2E books were wondrous for their in depth looks at culture and history. Volo's Guide to the Dalelands, Volo's Guide to Cormyr, The Savage Frontier, Calimport and The Oriental Adventures really stick out in my mind as showcasing very different kinds of human cultures, each with their own traditions and foibles.

Gold & Glory had an entire chapter about non-human mercenary companies.

Elminter's Ecologies: The Highmoor and the Serpent Hills had a really cool chapter about the Lizardfolk of the Serpent Hills. It included an interesting bit of information - Lizardfolk are warm-blooded, not cold. It talked about how Lizardfolk entertain themselves and how their government is organized. It also had some interesting tid bits about commerce between the Serpent Hills and the Marsh of Chelimber, which amounts to the former trading weapons to the latter in exchange for Kront (big Liazardfolk) bodyguards and eggs. The rest of the chapter concerns itself with Eliminster going to the Serpent Hills and getting to know its society.

That book also discusses the humans, orcs and goblinoids that live in the area. The passage about the Orcs is quite funny since the Orcs herd sheep but use wolves to guard them, which leads to a lot of missing sheep! The Orcs also brandish warts as facial decorations.

[LibraryOgre]

Consider the differing cultures between the Dalelands and Cormyr... both settled by largely the same ethnic group, at about the same time.

Cormyr is monarchist and very lawful. Adventuring is a chartered activity, magic-users are required to register with the local authorities, and may be called upon to act in the realm's interest as part of being chartered. Titles are inherited, with influential families able to sway the crown and general politics, and while you can get ahead through merit, there's a heavy lean towards familial oligarchy. There's a merchant class, but they're somewhat depressed due to a strong tax structure and a government style that reduces their voice.

The Dalelands, however, is a loose alliance of small, independent nations. Adventurers are common folk, though they may rise to prominence through their deeds, which they undertake because they want to. There is no central authority, and they tend to look askance at highly lawful types. While allied, these micronations largely stand and fall on their own (qv Daggerdale and Scardale), and have diverse populations (including one made up primarily of dinosaur people who can't talk). There's little in the way of actual patent nobility, and their power isn't recognized beyond their own Dale, except as a courtesy. There is a mercantile class, but the economy is primarily agrarian, leading to a lot of import/export work, rather than internal trade.

Right south is Sembia, a freewheeling nation of allied city-states... far more metropolitan than the rural Dalelands to the north, Sembia's culture is driven by greed and mercantilism. You may be a 0-level merchant, but in Sembia, you can be a king if you've got the money... because Sembians have no kings. Now, they do have a good-sized chunk of land, so likely have an agricultural base, themselves... but we know nothing about it, since Sembian culture is all about the silver (to the point where they tried to exchange silver for steel at one point, but wound up crashing the steelpense market, leading to the saying "Like trading steelpense for bella", meaning fiscal stupidity).

Did you know that, while they use about the same standards for coins, every nation has its own names for their various coins? There's even a common name for silver that can't be identified... Shou Lung silver.

Did you know that the elves of the Yuirwood (near Aglarond) had their own deities for centuries prior to the present era, but they slowly melded with the main Seldrane? Or that there's a tension within halfling society between those who regard the worship of Tymora as proper and those who think they should stick to their own deities? Or that there's a faction within halfling society that regards themselves as the logical successors to humanity, when humanity's time as ascendant ends (as it has for the elves, dwarves, giants and dragons in the past, to say nothing of the Creator races)? That some gnomes, upon leaving home for adventure, make it easier on their close-knit families by saying that they intend to quest for the race's lost goddesses (since, prior to 3.x, the gnomes had the only all-male pantheon among the demihumans)?

I mean, you want culture? The Witches of Rashamen fetishize and segregate magic by gender roles. In Silverymoon, there's a culture of relatively open sex and a low incidence of monogamy, much different than the more conservative culture of, say, Cormyr. Of course, in Thay, magical power is pretty much everything, and slavery is openly encouraged. IIRC, Chessenta is openly ruled by a god-king, while Mulhourand's rulers claim descent from their deities.

These might be dismissed as simple "lore", but the fact of the matter is that these are the facts that inform the cultures that they are part of. If you read through the 2e material on Cormyr, it's clear that each city has its own "vibe", and though they have some similar institutions, Elturel is a different city than Baldur's Gate is different from Waterdeep. There's similarities, sure, but we're talking about cities that have substantial connections to each other (q.v. The Lord's Alliance), and exist in a world where actual deities enforce their will across national boarders... if Chauntea likes things a certain way, she can let everyone know.

[tasw]

Pretty much ever race has varying cultures spread out across the continent. Even the most generic race - humans - have 7 major ethnic groups. The issue is that, oft times, those cultures aren't given a lot of page count in the main campaign setting book.

I always considered that a positive. A brief outline for a DM to create from and then leave it alone.

This almost seems like its addressing the opposite complaint from earlier where everything is laid out and PC's have no say in the world.

You cant have things too detailed, and not detailed enough.

[Chambers]

There are plenty of differences between Human cultures as well. Take attitudes towards adventuring parties as an example. In Cormyr parties must have a legal charter to function as an adventuring company. In Chessenta they are frowned upon and generally not allowed in certain cities while the Sword Coast is rife with unregulated groups of adventurers.

Cultures have different attitudes about magic. In Rashemon the Witches are the ruling force in the nation; their word is effectively law. Meanwhile Damara is wary of arcanists because of their war with the Witch King of Vassa.

The Regional feats in Players Guide to Faerun are a good example of how the different regions have different cultures.

[SiuiS]

All those iconic wizards - Bigby, Mordenkainen, Rary, Otto, Otiluke, etc. - whose names are splattered all over the spell list.

Neutrality is big for Gary. More or less, he considered it a stance all its own, working against the others. In his stuff, they tend to be the only reasonable ones.

Ah, okay. Haven't heard circle of eight in a LLLOOOONNNNG time.


As a medievalist, I tend to find the Forgotten Realms hopelessly generic. There's a tremendous amount of lore, but very little *culture.* Of course, part of this is the divine setup, since the mortals are all Ao's little playthings.

Are there orcs with different cultures? If so, why, or why not?
Lizard men, for example. They're everywhere. Do they ever *do anything,* or are they just there for low-level adventures? In FR, they're pathetic, but as a DM, I could run a lizardman-centric campaign, and have a group of players eating it up. They'd never play another drow again.

If I had one wish-list for FR, it would be for cultures to become far more distinct, and for all of the races (the bewildering array of them!) to be used to their potential, rather than "first rank races" getting fleshed out, and "everybody else" basically just being xp on the hoof.

Yes. This.


Culture is everywhere in the Realms. Take Orcs for example. There is an Orc kingdom (yes, kingdom) in the North.

What are their laws, mannerisms, styles of dress? Their cultural views on religion, politics, superstition, women's rights (or men's rights!) their understanding of nobility, ethical and moral mores, views on divine right and right of conquest?

Or are they just orcs with a king?

[Yora]

Please explain the difference as you see it.
As someone who spend some years in cultural studies, I regard culture primarily as customs, traditions, the structure of society, social classes and gender roles, art, dress, food, and things like that. Culture is how people live and what they consider to be normal and proper.

[Lord Raziere]

As someone who spend some years in cultural studies, I regard culture primarily as customs, traditions, the structure of society, social classes and gender roles, art, dress, food, and things like that. Culture is how people live and what they consider to be normal and proper.

meh, I have a simpler and more consistent definition of culture: the method through which hierarchy is established and enforced. if you follow the culture's ideals, you are favored, if you don't you are shunned and this determines your place in the hierarchy of the culture, as well as whether you are accepted or not in that culture. everything else is just a checklist for the hierarchy.

people have different cultures and therefore different reasons to be shunned or favored yes, but ultimately they are all have some form hierarchy even if its not immediately obvious.

[Chambers]

I'll look through my books in the morning and find some answers.

Problem though. If I answered each question, would that be enough to qualify as culture in this situation? One could simply say "Yes, but what about X, Y, and Z? Oh, no answers? Not a culture then." I'm concerned about goalposts moving. Not accusing anyone of doing so but it wouldn't surprise me if it happens.

[SiuiS]

I'll look through my books in the morning and find some answers.

Problem though. If I answered each question, would that be enough to qualify as culture in this situation? One could simply say "Yes, but what about X, Y, and Z? Oh, no answers? Not a culture then." I'm concerned about goalposts moving. Not accusing anyone of doing so but it wouldn't surprise me if it happens.

The line is a fine one; the subtle culture is okay but caricaturizarion is not. The Zhentarim aren't a cultural force, they are cackling villains with a skull motif for example.

Can you tell me the identifying characteristics of a person from any given culture? What defines a sword coastman versus the netherese? Etc.
It's a shifting rubric, but the question is one of earnest curiosity and thirst to discover; it will be handled in good faith.

[Chambers]

The majority of information I've found is about Obould more so than the kingdom he founded and ruled. There's also not as much detailed information on the kingdom as there are on other cities or nations, in my opinion because it's an enemy, a threat. When I write 'unknown' below I mean that I haven't found a specific mention of it in the text. I don't think it's hard to extrapolate from what the text does say about Obould and what kind of Kingdom he'd run though. This is just with a few minutes of searching, not an exhaustive search.

Laws - Unknown
Mannerisms - Unknown
Styles of Dress - Unknown
Religion - Gruumsh is the main god of the Kingdom of Many Arrows both because of him being the traditional Orc deity and because of King Obauld's personal connection with Gruumsh (receiving a special blessing).
Politics - The Kingdom of Many-Arrows was recognized by some of the members of the Silvery Marches Confederation. Trade, diplomacy, and the ability to engage in those are a necessary part of acting as a sovereign nation (the degrees of trade & diplomacy vary). That the Orc kingdom was able to do so speaks about the refined political capabilities they had (refined compared to other orcs).
Women's Rights/Men's Rights - Unknown
Nobility - Unknown
Ethics/Morality - One reason why Obould wanted to secure his Kingdom was so that he could have enough land to give to all of his sons so that they would not have to fight each other for power after his death.
Divine Right - Unknown
Right of Conquest - Obould forged his Kingdom by raiding and taking others lands.

If you want to get a juicy taste of the best lore of the Forgotten Realms I heartily encourage you to buy Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms. (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/398880000) Check out the free previews on that page. The whole book is system neutral, no game mechanics at all. It's all about the people of the Realms, how they live, what they fight for.

I probably could give a few defining characteristics of people from a given culture. Regarding a native from the Sword Coast and a native of Netherese there are a few things that immediately stand out. Netheril was an ancient civilization of mighty wizards, wizards so powerful that their leader Karsus actually managed to steal the divinity from the goddess of magic and become a god himself for a brief moment before both he and the goddess were destroyed. Netheril's civilization as a whole fell but there were some that escaped and lived for centuries on the Plane of Shadow. In the beginning of the 3.5 era the City of Shade returned and so pretty much any Netherse in the Realms would be someone who was previously a native of the Plane of Shadow - that's a pretty stark contrast right there.

A native of the Sword Coast by contrast wouldn't necessarily have the cultural view that magic is supreme. Some certainly would such as members of the evil Arcane Brotherhood in Luskan, but the Sword Coast and by extension Savage Frontier/The North is very much still a wild frontier outside of the cities. A Sword Coast native that left his or her city on a trip would likely be on guard for bandit attacks and monster attacks as Orcs and Trolls are common enemies depending on how high North they are. By contrast the Netherese lived in magical flying cities and when they left their city the trip was accomplished by means of magic, either flight or teleportation, because hey, they're living in a flying city. Can't just jump off. :smallsmile:

Edit: Reread what I wrote and noticed some odd shifts in subject. Been up a really long time, time for sleep.

[Felhammer]

What are their laws, mannerisms, styles of dress? Their cultural views on religion, politics, superstition, women's rights (or men's rights!) their understanding of nobility, ethical and moral mores, views on divine right and right of conquest?

Or are they just orcs with a king?

Unfortunately, Many Arrows really came to the fore right as WotC was downgrading their interest in setting material (i.e. 4E).

The Kingdom is actually a large confederation of Orc tribes united under the banner of King Obould. The tribes constantly vie for their own freedom, or at the very least more autonomy. The King is often forced to take unruly Chieftains and put them into the Pit, which amounts of an arena where the Chieftain must fight off whole groups of Giants, monsters and highly trained Orcs. If the Chieftain survives the gauntlet, then he is allowed to live. However, King Obould often eventually poisons those survivors he truly dislikes.

Gruumsh liked King Obould I enough to make him an Exarch. However, the Kingdom has since been plagued by Clerics/Shamans of Gruumsh who want to topple the Kingdom because it isn't Orc-y enough.

[LibraryOgre]

As someone who spend some years in cultural studies, I regard culture primarily as customs, traditions, the structure of society, social classes and gender roles, art, dress, food, and things like that. Culture is how people live and what they consider to be normal and proper.

All of which is heavily referenced in the source materials for FR.

[Yora]

I remember something like that, but I think that was all 2nd Edition.

[Toofey]

As someone who actually likes the forgotten realms, I'd like to see it get back to the core concept. A High Fantasy, high magic, world.

I'd like to see all the nonsense I've heard about 4e and this spellplauge thing done away with (that said I haven't done any 4ed because they made mages basically impossible, and I for one like vancian casters to be an option)

Get Rid of the Magicraft (there's already a setting for that, Ebberon) get back to classic fantasy. There should be a setting for people who want to play crazy pointed hatted Wizards.

[hamlet]

I remember something like that, but I think that was all 2nd Edition.

And it being from 2nd edition means it's not worth it? Or unusable?

[Chambers]

I remember something like that, but I think that was all 2nd Edition.

Silver Marches (3.0) 159 pages. Table of Contents: Lay of the Land (37 pages), Exploring the Wilds (14 pages), Cities of the Silver Marches (27 pages), People of the Silver Marches (10 pages), Politics & Power (10 pages), Heroes of the North (7 pages), Monsters of the Marches (3 pages), Adventures in the North (14 pages).

Of those sections Heroes of the North is Prestige Classes and Monster of the Marches is a monster bestiary and the Adventures in the North are mini-adventures. We'll count those as pure game mechanics even though they also contain lore. All the rest is fluff, lore, whatever you want to call it. So of the book 85% of the content in the book is details on the land, people, and culture of the region.

Honestly I don't understand the argument that the Realms groups lack enough culture. One of the things I read often on this site about the Realms is that there's so much material. Indeed, that is often cited as a drawback for DM's and Players that want to use the setting as it can be overwhelming. I don't see how the amount of lore can be overwhelming yet at the same time lacking in sufficient culture information.

[Felhammer]

I really hope WotC starts producing things like Volo's Guides again. Those were the best books if you wanted lots of cultural fluff.

[Yora]

WotC has always been all about splatbooks with races, prestige classes, feats, and spells. 3rd edition Forgotten Realms really was an unusual exception, and even those books were 50% crunch, I believe.
The Eberron book Secrets of Xen'drik has almost no regional information at all.

[Chambers]

3rd edition Forgotten Realms really was an unusual exception, and even those books were 50% crunch, I believe.

See my above post where I break down the fluff : crunch content in Silver Marches to 85% fluff, 15% crunch. I'll examine some other books later tonight because I think 50% is lowballing it.

[Felhammer]

WotC has always been all about splatbooks with races, prestige classes, feats, and spells. 3rd edition Forgotten Realms really was an unusual exception, and even those books were 50% crunch, I believe.
The Eberron book Secrets of Xen'drik has almost no regional information at all.


TSR made books prior to its purchase by WotC and most of their setting books were darn near pure fluff. WotC was indeed all about crunch but most of their setting books were less than half crunch, usually bordering on a third. When 4th edition rolled around, the DM oriented books were all fluff and monster stat blocks.

I don't own Secrets of Xen'drik but the Secrets of Salona was 105 pages of fluff to 51 pages of crunch.

[Yora]

2nd Edition books do a quite good job at describing the world and it's people. It just seems to me that most of that information no longer fits with the version of the world presented in 3rd and especially 4th Edition.

Secrets of Sarlona is indeed how these books should have been. Secrets of Xen'drik has a matching title, but is completely different. It describes a wooping total of two settlements and has no mentions on culture, important people, or important locations at all. It's magic items, monsters, pre-made encounters, and a few generic floorplans that GMs can use to make their own locations and adventures.

[Felhammer]

2nd Edition books do a quite good job at describing the world and it's people. It just seems to me that most of that information no longer fits with the version of the world presented in 3rd and especially 4th Edition.

The 2E books still fit with the fluff of 3rd edition, more or less. 4E is an entirely different ball of wax since it involved a 100 year time jump. :smallfrown:


Secrets of Sarlona is indeed how these books should have been. Secrets of Xen'drik has a matching title, but is completely different. It describes a wooping total of two settlements and has no mentions on culture, important people, or important locations at all. It's magic items, monsters, pre-made encounters, and a few generic floorplans that GMs can use to make their own locations and adventures.

That sounds awful. :smallfrown:

[Hopeless]

Anyone tried running Murder in Baldur's Gate using an entirely different game system like runequest for example (and edition!:smalltongue:)?

From what I've heard it has no stats at all so I was wondering if that would work?

[Yora]

If you don't use the printed stat blocks for enemies, pretty much any adventure can be run in any game system. I frequently use AD&D adventures or even older D&D modules for Pathfinder.

[Felhammer]

WotC put stat blocks up on their website. You can play the adventure with the rules for Next, 4E or 3.5.

[obryn]

WotC put stat blocks up on their website. You can play the adventure with the rules for Next, 4E or 3.5.
Not only this, but so much of the adventure is essentially system-free* that you could almost run it with the Monopoly rules and be fine.

-O

* That is, for trad-style games like D&D, where most talking and poking around involve, at best, a few die rolls. I think the adventure might run better in something like FATE given all the interpersonal interactions.

[Felhammer]

Not only this, but so much of the adventure is essentially system-free* that you could almost run it with the Monopoly rules and be fine.

-O

* That is, for trad-style games like D&D, where most talking and poking around involve, at best, a few die rolls. I think the adventure might run better in something like FATE given all the interpersonal interactions.

Do not pass Drizzt. Do not collect 200 gp. :smalltongue:

[jedipotter]

See my above post where I break down the fluff : crunch content in Silver Marches to 85% fluff, 15% crunch. I'll examine some other books later tonight because I think 50% is lowballing it.

Yes, the Silver Marches was ''the'' product. See the story goes is that WotC loves crunch. That is why they put out so much crunch. And they hate fluff. But some designers disagree and like fluff. So WotC gave them a ''chance'', sort of. They were given the Silver Marches to put as much fluff as they wanted too. But it had to sell good, at least as good as a crunchy D&D book. And...it did not happen. To simply toss one fluffy book out there after loads of crunch did not cause hundreds of FR fans to suddenly buy the book. It only sold so-so. So WotC was able to stand up and say ''see gamers only like crunch, not fluff''. And D&D books have been crunchy ever sense.....

[Felhammer]

Yes, the Silver Marches was ''the'' product. See the story goes is that WotC loves crunch. That is why they put out so much crunch. And they hate fluff. But some designers disagree and like fluff. So WotC gave them a ''chance'', sort of. They were given the Silver Marches to put as much fluff as they wanted too. But it had to sell good, at least as good as a crunchy D&D book. And...it did not happen. To simply toss one fluffy book out there after loads of crunch did not cause hundreds of FR fans to suddenly buy the book. It only sold so-so. So WotC was able to stand up and say ''see gamers only like crunch, not fluff''. And D&D books have been crunchy ever sense.....

Good theory but the last point is not totally accurate. The majority of the Eberron Books are Fluff > Crunch and most of the FR books are only 40% or less crunch.

The non-setting books are definitely more crunch than fluff but then again you are not buying a setting neutral book for its reams of fluff. Having said that, the later monster manuals all delved deeply into Fluff, far more than the first few.

If we look at 4E, the DM guides for Eberron and FR were almost all Fluff and monster stat blocks. The Dark Sun Setting was far more crunch but, on the other hand, there is also much less to talk about in Dark Sun compared to Eberron and FR (the size of the described area is tiny and 90% of it is wasteland). I never picked up Neverwinter but my guess is that it would be similar to Dark Sun.

Regardless, WOtC is not "all about" crunch, they just recognized that they could double or triple the number of books sold if they included player-oriented crunch in what otherwise would have been a book targeted to DM's.

[russdm]

The non-setting books are definitely more crunch than fluff but then again you are not buying a setting neutral book for its reams of fluff. Having said that, the later monster manuals all delved deeply into Fluff, far more than the first few.
Regardless, WOtC is not "all about" crunch, they just recognized that they could double or triple the number of books sold if they included player-oriented crunch in what otherwise would have been a book targeted to DM's.

Setting Neutral splatbook are interchangeable and usable in any setting. Books solely for FR or Eberron are frequently usable only in those settings, so they won't get purchased as much. Frankly, a setting splatbook should be 50/50 in terms of fluff/crunch. Or maybe 45 fluff / 55 crunch. Not more. That would be really worth the price. Crunch from the Realms is portable with modification to some degree, but fluff isn't as much, hence another reason why setting neutral books sell off more.

As for Dark Sun, it would never have had much fluff anyway considering how it was supposed to be. Aside from the Sorcerorking cities, and a few areas, the rest of the world simply cannot be adventured on without massive party efforts. You need nearly a year's supply of water to go around beyond the city-states/other areas. You also need the food and other supplies, because once you leave the habitable areas, then you are screwed if don't have stuff to survive. I usually think of Athas as being like Tatioone or Arrakis in terms of inhabitably, although Athas lacks the sarlacc or sand worms that make spice.

Most players will fork over the money for crunch while most DMs usually only get the books they need. IF a player has Tome of Battle and wants to use it, then you can easily have the player always bring the book for review as needed instead of buying the book yourself. The Fluff is more useful to DMs anyway, while only Fluff relating to crunch options are important to PCs.

How many times did the character's background really come into play in FR or Eberron? Unless you had a weird DM, not very often at all. Unless the background had some good plot/quest hooks, the background was usually ignored (in my experience). Also, IMHO, not many remembered their backgrounds much and how important to the character is it really? How often are you actually bringing up or mentioning background stuff? IMHO, it was almost nothing. Character backgrounds are essentially fluff, that if it doesn't show up, it doesn't matter. After all, the best background for PCs is being an orphan with no living or existent relatives. Then you don't get crap happening, like "oh, your father is some nasty knight dude or something". That sort of thing is deeply annoying, Whereas something along the lines of somebody related to you had done some interesting thing.

[Felhammer]

Setting Neutral splatbook are interchangeable and usable in any setting. Books solely for FR or Eberron are frequently usable only in those settings, so they won't get purchased as much. Frankly, a setting splatbook should be 50/50 in terms of fluff/crunch. Or maybe 45 fluff / 55 crunch. Not more. That would be really worth the price. Crunch from the Realms is portable with modification to some degree, but fluff isn't as much, hence another reason why setting neutral books sell off more.

A setting book should be almost 80% fluff, with 15% being monster stat blocks and 5% other stuff (like equipment, magic items, etc.). Keep the player information in player books, keep the DM info in DM books. There's no reason for a player to buy a 30 dollar book so he can access a single Feat or Prestige class. That's just silly. Make large print runs of player oriented books, make smaller print runs of DM oriented books. I don't want a books that cross the divide. When I'm a player, I want to cart around dense tomes full of player stuff and when I'm a DM I want books that give me fluff and monsters. If every book I buy is a 50/50 split, then half of the stuff I am hauling around is 100% useless to me at any given moment.



How many times did the character's background really come into play in FR or Eberron? Unless you had a weird DM, not very often at all. Unless the background had some good plot/quest hooks, the background was usually ignored (in my experience). Also, IMHO, not many remembered their backgrounds much and how important to the character is it really? How often are you actually bringing up or mentioning background stuff? IMHO, it was almost nothing. Character backgrounds are essentially fluff, that if it doesn't show up, it doesn't matter. After all, the best background for PCs is being an orphan with no living or existent relatives. Then you don't get crap happening, like "oh, your father is some nasty knight dude or something". That sort of thing is deeply annoying, Whereas something along the lines of somebody related to you had done some interesting thing.

Unless you are a bad DM or you are running pre-made adventures, aspects of every single character's background should come up fairly regularly. If the adventure does not relate to your character in anyway, then you are just a cog in a machine, going through the motions.

I cannot imagine playing in non-pre-made campaigns where character backgrounds are not mined for story hooks, quests and interesting NPCs. It just sounds so... Sanitary. Even an Orphan grew up in a living world. He was not raised in a vacuum. He will have friends, enemies, mentors, life experiences, etc. Where was he originally from? Where was his Orphanage? How did he become an Orphan? How does he feel about it? Did he like his Orphanage? Has anyone ever shown him any compassion? Did he ever fall in love with someone? What happened to keep them apart? Why is he an adventurer? How did he afford his starting equipment? Where did he hone his skills?

[russdm]

A setting book should be almost 80% fluff, with 15% being monster stat blocks and 5% other stuff (like equipment, magic items, etc.). Keep the player information in player books, keep the DM info in DM books. There's no reason for a player to buy a 30 dollar book so he can access a single Feat or Prestige class. That's just silly. Make large print runs of player oriented books, make smaller print runs of DM oriented books. I don't want a books that cross the divide. When I'm a player, I want to cart around dense tomes full of player stuff and when I'm a DM I want books that give me fluff and monsters. If every book I buy is a 50/50 split, then half of the stuff I am hauling around is 100% useless to me at any given moment.

True. But it should be easier to make use of stuff.



Unless you are a bad DM or you are running pre-made adventures, aspects of every single character's background should come up fairly regularly. If the adventure does not relate to your character in anyway, then you are just a cog in a machine, going through the motions.

I cannot imagine playing in non-pre-made campaigns where character backgrounds are not mined for story hooks, quests and interesting NPCs. It just sounds so... Sanitary. Even an Orphan grew up in a living world. He was not raised in a vacuum. He will have friends, enemies, mentors, life experiences, etc. Where was he originally from? Where was his Orphanage? How did he become an Orphan? How does he feel about it? Did he like his Orphanage? Has anyone ever shown him any compassion? Did he ever fall in love with someone? What happened to keep them apart? Why is he an adventurer? How did he afford his starting equipment? Where did he hone his skills?

Why? Why should the PCs' background be mined for that information? The game world does not revolve around the PCs. The game world revolves around the game world and the PCs are just one of many stories in it. The DM can use backgrounds sure, but if only the PCs agrees. Otherwise it is a violation of DM's-Player's Trust agreement and most DMs like using backgrounds to mess with people.

[Chambers]

Why? Why should the PCs' background be mined for that information? The game world does not revolve around the PCs. The game world revolves around the game world and the PCs are just one of many stories in it. The DM can use backgrounds sure, but if only the PCs agrees. Otherwise it is a violation of DM's-Player's Trust agreement and most DMs like using backgrounds to mess with people.

Because the PC's are the most important characters at the table. The game session is about the players characters interacting with the game world, as the characters experience it. The way a character experiences the game world is directly related to who and what the character is, how they came to be. It can be as simple as "Orcs killed my patents and I hate Orcs, so I'm not going to help that Half-Orc Sheriff."

A good DM doesn't use a characters background to pull a "Gotcha!". That's the mark of bad DM'ing, not an argument against character backgrounds. If a characters background has zero impact on the story I'd rather play a video game than waste my time playing with such a DM.

[Felhammer]

Why? Why should the PCs' background be mined for that information? The game world does not revolve around the PCs. The game world revolves around the game world and the PCs are just one of many stories in it. The DM can use backgrounds sure, but if only the PCs agrees. Otherwise it is a violation of DM's-Player's Trust agreement and most DMs like using backgrounds to mess with people.

Ok, I have to ask - what did a DM (or was it multiple DMs?) do to you to make you have this hardened stance? It doesn't really jive with how I think most players think.

[LibraryOgre]

A good DM doesn't use a characters background to pull a "Gotcha!". That's the mark of bad DM'ing, not an argument against character backgrounds. If a characters background has zero impact on the story I'd rather play a video game than waste my time playing with such a DM.

Oh, I disagree... a background-oriented Gotcha is one of the most fun to get out of. It's great for driving character development, and requiring players to engage their character and his background.

[russdm]

Ok, I have to ask - what did a DM (or was it multiple DMs?) do to you to make you have this hardened stance? It doesn't really jive with how I think most players think.

I have had a fair number of characters die to dumb house rules and then DMs that enjoyed killing my characters?

[russdm]

Oh, I disagree... a background-oriented Gotcha is one of the most fun to get out of. It's great for driving character development, and requiring players to engage their character and his background.

Only if it happens in moderation. I have seen examples of DMs that frequently pull that "gotcha" moments and does get annoying. Besides shouldn't you get permission from the players' to use their characters' background to create a "gotcha"?

I really don't like having to think about some background for a PC who dies quickly, but if the PC survives, I want the freedom to change things out by my choices, not the DM's. (Like that some certain thing happened in the PC's background and I decided to do something differently. IF the DM is using that for a "gotcha, little s***" moment, they really can't let it change.) Besides, in the games I have played in, my PC's background has not really played a part. What if I wanted the mystery of the PC's background to be part of the appeal of the character?

Also, unless the "Gotcha" moment drives the main-plot forward in some way, it is just highlights on those who went crazy with backgrounding and such, that are all about "me", real showoffs and then your character ends up dying anyway. So why did the background matter now that you are dead?

[Chambers]

Oh, I disagree... a background-oriented Gotcha is one of the most fun to get out of. It's great for driving character development, and requiring players to engage their character and his background.

If it's used to drive the story forward than that's not so bad, but I don't refer to that as a Gotcha! By Gotcha! I mean the DM is pulling something just to flex his/her power as DM. It's a power trip and it's bad DM'ing.

[russdm]

If it's used to drive the story forward than that's not so bad, but I don't refer to that as a Gotcha! By Gotcha! I mean the DM is pulling something just to flex his/her power as DM. It's a power trip and it's bad DM'ing.

From what I have seen/heard/read/little experienced, this is only reason that DMs would do that aside from driving the story forward. Individual PC moments, like fulfilling some weird background event fetish (Family killed by some NPC, who the PC wants to kill to avenge them or something; just an example which the other PCs have to suffer through because its a side side-quest and so meaningless to everyone else in the party), should occur off-screen.

[Felhammer]

From what I have seen/heard/read/little experienced, this is only reason that DMs would do that aside from driving the story forward. Individual PC moments, like fulfilling some weird background event fetish (Family killed by some NPC, who the PC wants to kill to avenge them or something; just an example which the other PCs have to suffer through because its a side side-quest and so meaningless to everyone else in the party), should occur off-screen.

You should take joy in helping your friends accomplish their life goals.

[Chambers]

Yes, the Silver Marches was ''the'' product. See the story goes is that WotC loves crunch. That is why they put out so much crunch. And they hate fluff. But some designers disagree and like fluff. So WotC gave them a ''chance'', sort of. They were given the Silver Marches to put as much fluff as they wanted too. But it had to sell good, at least as good as a crunchy D&D book. And...it did not happen. To simply toss one fluffy book out there after loads of crunch did not cause hundreds of FR fans to suddenly buy the book. It only sold so-so. So WotC was able to stand up and say ''see gamers only like crunch, not fluff''. And D&D books have been crunchy ever sense.....

Races of Faerun (189 pages)
Published March 2003

Table of Contents

Introduction: 5 pages
Dwarves: 18 pages
Elves: 22 pages
Gnomes: 10 pages
Half-Elves: 6 pages
Half-Orcs & Orcs: 11 pages
Halflings: 6 pages
Humans: 32 pages
Planetouched: 18 pages
Minor Races: 24 pages
Appendix: 37 pages (Feats, Gear, Monsters, Prestige, Spells)


If a race listing includes an Abilities & Racial Features section I'll include that page as Crunch. (Arctic Dwarf, Urdunnir, Wild Dwarf, Aquatic Elf, Avariel, Forest Gnome, Half-Aquatic Elves, Half-Drow, Gray Orc, Mountain Orc, Deep Orc, Fey'ri, Tanarukk, Aarakocra, Centaur, Goblinoid, Kir-lanan, Lizardfolk, Lycanthrope, Shade, Wemic, Yuan-ti) 22 pages

Game rules for races and the Appendix take up 59 out of 189 pages: 31% Crunch.
History, Outlook, Society, Magic & Lore, Deities, Region, etc of the races takes up the remaining 69% of the book.

City of Splendors: Waterdeep (154 pages)
Published July 2005

Table of Contents

Introduction: 2 pages
The City of Splendors: 15 pages
People of Waterdeep: 54 pages
Prestige Classes: 13 pages
Waterdeep Locales: 20 pages
Adventures in Waterdeep: 21 pages
Monsters of Waterdeep: 9 pages
Heroes and Magic: 10 pages


Crunch: Prestige Classes (13), Monsters, (9), Heroes and Magic (10).
Deduct 11 pages for accumulated NPC statistics, Organization stat blocks and other paragraphs of rules spread through the non-crunch sections.

Crunch: 43 pages out of 154: 27%

Mysteries of the Moonsea (155 pages)
Published June 2006

Table of Contents

Introduction: 4 pages
Melvaunt and the North: 37 pages
Hillsfar and the South: 43 pages
Mulmaster and the East: 34 pages
Zhentil Keep and the West: 37 pages


The Crunch in the Moonsea book is almost completely NPC statistics and Encounters. I estimate that the NPC blocks and Encounter descriptions take up about 40 combined pages. That'd be 40 out of 155 pages: 25%. Even if you think 40 pages is too low an estimate, 50 pages would be 32%. I think 50 pages would be on the high estimation scale but I wouldn't call it unfair. I think 60 pages of Crunch would be an unfair estimation and even that would be 38% Crunch.

----

Examining the data shows that you are wrong.

[tasw]

is mystery of the moonsea any good? my current campaign is in that area.

[Chambers]

Yeah, its got a lot of NPC stats and dozens of sample encounters, as well as plenty of info on the current clack of the region. Are you the DM or a player? I'd advise the book for the DM but there isn't much player specific content, crunch-wise.

[Felhammer]

is mystery of the moonsea any good? my current campaign is in that area.

If you are setting your campaign in that area, it is totally worth picking up. Lots of NPC, encounters, adventure sights and lots of fluff. :smallsmile:

[tasw]

Nice guys. thx. I'll check it out.