Breath Weapon Optimization

[relytdan]

So I was curious just what the maxium possible damage would be from an ECL 20 character
what race/template would work best
what class/PRC works best
what Grafts, Feats, Skills & Items work best
using the full WBL for stuff..
<in looking I think I can get (18d10+8d8) at 1d4-1 rounds (min 1 rnd)>

[Humble Master]

I think this is the peak of breath weapons. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27071997/) Kill 99% of the world at 4th level.

[rweird]

Hmm, Daviti Dragon Shaman 19 with Dragon Spirit Cincture each using 5-fold breath of Tiamat and Belt of Battle for an additional action to do the same would be 180d6. I think there is some way to get extra heads as well, so that would be 1080 damage/round max, and it'd do 38 damage to each of them each round of breathing like that. I'm sure someone could do better though.

EDIT: And they did. Swordsaged. Assuming things stack that way.

[relytdan]

I think this is the peak of breath weapons. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27071997/) Kill 99% of the world at 4th level.

guess you missed all the errors on that build - it doesn't quite work out as a great build - Though the variant I came up with did use the dragonfire adept -like bobo - I just went a different route. but I don't know if its the best route.

[relytdan]

Hmm, Daviti Dragon Shaman 19 with Dragon Spirit Cincture each using 5-fold breath of Tiamat and Belt of Battle for an additional action to do the same would be 180d6. I think there is some way to get extra heads as well, so that would be 1080 damage/round max, and it'd do 38 damage to each of them each round of breathing like that. I'm sure someone could do better though.

EDIT: And they did. Swordsaged. Assuming things stack that way.

heh I forgot about the 5-fold breath of tiamat - even without the extra action 18d10x5+8d8X5 - would be where this would take the present build

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragonfire Adept 1, Flyby Breath feat from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. You get a 1d6 fire breath attack usable at will with no wait time between breaths. You can use it as a free action when flying and doing nothing else but moving. This allows you to use your breath attack an infinite number of times per round, so anything within range at any point during your movement gets burned to ashes.


For practical optimization, you really shouldn't focus on just a breath attack, or just dealing damage. For example, a Wizard or Sorcerer can combine Snowcasting, Energy Substitution: Electric, Born of the Three Thunders, Persistent Spell, and the spell Dragon Breath (Blue or Bronze). This gives you a 30-ft. line of electricity that deals 5d8 electric and 5d8 sonic damage, Reflex half, and anyone who takes damage has to make a Fort save vs stun, and if they fail that they also have to make a Reflex save or be knocked prone. You're only dazed for a round after initially casting the spell, not after each breath.

Combine your breath attack with spells like Blinding Breath, which causes any creature that fails its Reflex save against the breath to be permanently blinded. Note that nothing is immune to this unless it was already blind, including incorporeal undead, constructs, etc., and breath attacks are supernatural so they bypass magic immunity.

For damage output, Dragonfire Adept is probably the most reliable class to use, especially considering you can use your breath every round. The feat Power Surge in Dragon issue 313 gives a supernatural ability any of three benefits each time you use it: +1 DC, +1 damage per die, or +50% duration. This adds a 1-round wait before you can use the ability again, which for a DFA means you can still use it every round. This allows you to qualify for and use metabreath feats from the Draconomicon, though most aren't really worth it. There's also the feat Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon, which cuts the damage of your breath in half but anything damaged by it is entangled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled) for 1d4 rounds, taking 1d6 damage each round that it lasts. A 1st level DFA actually improves his breath damage by using this feat.

According to the Dragonfire Adept handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!) you can deal a guaranteed 315 damage in a single maximized breath.

Note that the metabreath feats in the Draconomicon can be applied multiple times, each time increasing the number of rounds before your next breath. For example, you can make a Clinging Breath last an extra five rounds, at a cost of five additional rounds before the next breath. There was a trick with a DFA using a liberal combination of metabreath feats including Lingering Breath, and setting the number of uses to infinity so it lasts an infinitely long time and he can never use his breath attack again. The result was a 1d6 fire cloud that increases in size every round and lasts forever, eventually covering the entire world.

[rweird]

heh I forgot about the 5-fold breath of tiamat - even without the extra action 18d10x5+8d8X5 - would be where this would take the present build

I'm pretty sure the 5-fold breath only works if you use a DFA breath weapon, not sure how you'd get 18d10 base damage from DFA. Could we see your build?

Still, with flyby breath, the answer to maximum damage is "there is no maximum because of poorly worded feats"

[Humble Master]

guess you missed all the errors on that build - it doesn't quite work out as a great build - Though the variant I came up with did use the dragonfire adept -like bobo - I just went a different route. but I don't know if its the best route. My apologies. I just googled Bobo the Mouth Breather and that was the first thing that came up.

[relytdan]

I'm pretty sure the 5-fold breath only works if you use a DFA breath weapon, not sure how you'd get 18d10 base damage from DFA. Could we see your build?

Still, with flyby breath, the answer to maximum damage is "there is no maximum because of poorly worded feats"

Presuming that all this works the way I think it should...
Dragonborn Raptorian/Half Dragon
subtype: dragonblood

Dragonborn: Heart (Su): <Breath Weapon deals 6d8> 1d8 points of damage, plus 1d8 every 3 lvl after (1,4,7,10,13,16)
Half Dragon: Breath Weapon deals 6d8
Graft: metabolic fire; Breath Weapon deals 6d8
Waist Slot: dragon spirit cincture; breath weapon damage is increased by one die
Class's:Breath Weapon deals 8d6 +1d8 ; allows stacking breath weapon damage of same energy type


the Breath weapon should be ( 19d10x5 + 8d8x5 )


Feats:
Dragon Breath; can use breath weapon every 1d4 rounds
Dragonfire Assault; Deal extra damage from Power Attack as fire damage
Maximize Breath [Metabreath]
Recover Breath [Metabreath]

Dragonfire Adept Breath Effects
Fivefold Breath of Tiamat Breathe five different breath weapons simultaneously

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Class's:Breath Weapon deals 8d6 +1d8 ; allows stacking breath weapon damage of same energy type

Where does it say that you can stack the damage of multiple breath attacks?

Half-Dragon is an inherited template, Dragonborn is an acquired template. You're born with inherited templates, you gain acquired templates later in life. When you gain Dragonborn you lose your Half-Dragon breath attack.

[relytdan]

Where does it say that you can stack the damage of multiple breath attacks?

Half-Dragon is an inherited template, Dragonborn is an acquired template. You're born with inherited templates, you gain acquired templates later in life. When you gain Dragonborn you lose your Half-Dragon breath attack.

where in the dragonborn information does it claim you "lose" the half dragon breath? and as raw goes I can have an inherited and an acquired template that do basicly the same special attack
as for the damage of multiple breaths - Check Dragon Samurai prc (Miniatures Handbook 18)
Dragon Breath (Su): A dragon samurai can use a breath weapon
once per day as a standard action. The type of breath weapon
depends on the color of the dragon samurai’s clan, as noted below.
The breath weapon deals 1d8 points of damage per class level.
The Reflex save DC for the breath weapon is 10 + the dragon
samurai’s class level + the dragon samurai’s Con modifier.
****
If a dragon samurai already has a breath weapon of the same type,
the damage stacks.
****

[Rebel7284]

where in the dragonborn information does it claim you "lose" the half dragon breath?

The part that says you lose all traits of your previous race except movements modes and powerful/slight build.

:)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Human Druid 20

Feats:
any metamagic
Energy Substitution (fire)
Energy Substitution (electricity)
Energy Admixture (fire)
Energy Admixture (electricity)
Spell Focus:Transmutation
Metamagic School Focus (Transmutation)
Dragon Wild Shape

Gear:
greater Rod of Maximize Spell
greater Rod of Empower Spell
Ring of Mystic Fire
Ring of Mystic Lightning
Strand of Prayer Beads (Karma Bead)
Ankh of Ascension
Ioun Stone (orange)

1. Wild shape into a young adult Steel Dragon to get poison cone breath weapon.
2. Cast empowered, maximized, energy admixture:fire,energy admixture:lightning Venomfire, using all charges of your rings, your metamagic rods and the CL boosts from Karma Bead (+4), Ankh of Ascension (+4) and Ioun Stone (+1). Use MSF to reduce EA to +3 so it fits in a 9th level slot.
3. breathe for (29d6*0,5)+174 acid, 33d6*0.5 +198 fire, 33d6*0.5 +198 electricity (about 800 damage) with no save and 5 Con damage, fort negates. All day.

[Menzath]

hmm "gaining" a breath attack doesn't mean they stack unless explicitly worded so, like dragon samurai in miniatures handbook.

Also I don't think you can give dragonborn the half dragon template since they are already a dragon.

The best way to gain MANY breath attacks is Master Transmogrifist(CArc) Cyro hydra(or pyro) with 12 or however many heads gaining the breath attack of a dragon you can change into.
Now all your heads have that breath weapon thanks to goofy wording of how it says hydra's that have breath weapons use them.
Or vice-versa change to a dragon with as many heads as a hydra(Not quite as rules legal for the many breaths but most DM's are fine with it).

Edit: Me am type gud. And wrong PrC.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

where in the dragonborn information does it claim you "lose" the half dragon breath? and as raw goes I can have an inherited and an acquired template that do basicly the same special attack
as for the damage of multiple breaths - Check Dragon Samurai prc (Miniatures Handbook 18)
Dragon Breath (Su): A dragon samurai can use a breath weapon
once per day as a standard action. The type of breath weapon
depends on the color of the dragon samurai’s clan, as noted below.
The breath weapon deals 1d8 points of damage per class level.
The Reflex save DC for the breath weapon is 10 + the dragon
samurai’s class level + the dragon samurai’s Con modifier.
****
If a dragon samurai already has a breath weapon of the same type,
the damage stacks.
****

So when using your 1/day Dragon Samurai breath attack, you get to stack the damage of all the fire breaths you have. But this only applies on that 1/day use of that breath attack, all your other breaths in a given day do not stack anything.

Races of the Dragon page 10, The Mechanics of Rebirth:
Other Racial Traits: You lose all other racial traits of your original
race, including bonus feats, skill bonuses, attack bonuses,
save bonuses, spell-like abilities, and so forth.
Becoming a Dragonborn definitely causes you to lose everything but the ability score bonuses, movement modes, and level adjustment granted by half-dragon. You don't get to keep the natural armor, breath attack, natural weapons, immunities, etc.

[relytdan]

So when using your 1/day Dragon Samurai breath attack, you get to stack the damage of all the fire breaths you have. But this only applies on that 1/day use of that breath attack, all your other breaths in a given day do not stack anything.

Races of the Dragon page 10, The Mechanics of Rebirth:
Other Racial Traits: You lose all other racial traits of your original
race, including bonus feats, skill bonuses, attack bonuses,
save bonuses, spell-like abilities, and so forth.
Becoming a Dragonborn definitely causes you to lose everything but the ability score bonuses, movement modes, and level adjustment granted by half-dragon. You don't get to keep the natural armor, breath attack, natural weapons, immunities, etc.

Where does it say that exactly in this ??" THE MECHANICS OF REBIRTH
Other Racial Traits: You lose all other racial traits of your original
race, including bonus feats, skill bonuses, attack bonuses,
save bonuses, spell-like abilities, and so forth. Two specific
instances warrant clarification. "

Is the breath weapon special attack a

including bonus feats : -No
skill bonuses : -No
attack bonuses : -No
save bonuses : -No
spell-like abilities : -No
and so forth - without specifics this heading can imply almost anything and yet nothing at the same time - so unless there is an eratta that clarifies or specifies..
the default is : -No

Race: Raptorian ( Humanoid, Raptorian )

Half Dragon:
creature’s type changes to dragon
Special Attack: gains a breath weapon based on the dragon
variety (see the table below), usable once per day.
deals 6d8

Dragonborn:
retain your original type and
subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype

Heart (Su): The line’s length is 5 feet per Hit
Die the dragonborn has, up to a maximum of 100 feet at
20 HD. The breath weapon deals 1d8 points of damage,
plus an extra 1d8 points for each 3 HD the dragonborn
possesses

THE MECHANICS OF REBIRTH
Upon transformation from her initial race to a dragonborn,
a supplicant loses many racial traits and gains those of the
dragonborn. The following information describes how to mechanically
achieve this transformation.
Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and
subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype.


Race: Raptorian ( Dragon <Humanoid>, Dragonblood, Raptorian )

Dragonborn: Heart (Su): <Breath Weapon deals 6d8> 1d8 points of damage, plus 1d8 every 3 lvl after (1,4,7,10,13,16)
Half Dragon: Breath Weapon deals 6d8
Graft: metabolic fire; Breath Weapon deals 6d8
Waist Slot: dragon spirit cincture; breath weapon damage is increased by one die
Class's:
Dragon Shaman
Breath Weapon (Su): At 4th level, you gain a breath weapon corresponding to your totem dragon.

Dragonfire Adept
Breath Weapon (Su): At 1st level, you gain a breath weapon that you can use at will as a standard action.
Each time you use your breath weapon, you can choose whether it takes the form of a 15-foot cone or a 30-foot line.
This breath weapon deals 1d6

Dragon samurai
Dragon Breath (Su): A dragon samurai can use a breath weapon once per day as a standard action.
The type of breath weapon depends on the color of the dragon samurai’s clan, The breath weapon deals 1d8
If a dragon samurai already has a breath weapon of the same type, the damage stacks.
For example, if a half-dragon character has a breath weapon dealing 6d8 points of damage once per day,
and gains a breath weapon of the same type that deals 2d8 points of damage for being a 2nd-level dragon samurai
her damage increases to 8d8. She still gets to use her breath weapon only once per day.


Feats:
Dragon Breath; can use breath weapon every 1d4 rounds
Dragonfire Assault; Deal extra damage from Power Attack as fire damage
Maximize Breath [Metabreath]
Recover Breath [Metabreath]

Dragonfire Adept Breath Effects
Fivefold Breath of Tiamat Breathe five different breath weapons simultaneously

( so as i stated before it appears by what i see as written,
I get to combine the effects of the half dragon, the dragonborn, the dragonshaman, the dragonfire adept and the dragon samurai
for a 19D10x5+8d8x5 Breath weapon every 1d4-1 rounds

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Where does it say that exactly in this ??" THE MECHANICS OF REBIRTH
Other Racial Traits: You lose all other racial traits of your original
race, including bonus feats, skill bonuses, attack bonuses,
save bonuses, spell-like abilities, and so forth. Two specific
instances warrant clarification. "

<<< does it say the half dragon loses it's Breath weapon special attack. NO .>>>

You lose all other racial traits of your original race. Since breath weapons aren't specifically called out as something you get to keep, that means you lose it.



( so as i stated before it appears by what i see as written,
I get to combine the effects of the half dragon, the dragonborn, the dragonshaman, the dragonfire adept and the dragon samurai
for a 19D10x5+8d8x5 Breath weapon every 1d4-1 rounds

Power Attack only adds damage to your melee damage rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack). Even if its bonus damage is switched to fire, it does not add damage to your breath attack. It only applies to melee attacks for which you had to make an attack roll.

The Dragon Breath feat applies to your racial Half-Dragon breath attack, but not to your 1/day Dragon Breath class feature from Dragon Samurai. The two are definitely separate, and if you apply something that can only benefit one it does not carry over to the other. Because you get to add the damage of one to the other does not mean you can add the other benefits of one to the other.

A Dragon Shaman gets to add his Breath Effects to his class-granted Breath Attack, but not to breath attacks gained from other sources. As above, even if you get to stack your damage from multiple breath weapons when using the 1/day Dragon Samurai breath it does not mean you get to combine other effects of those other breath weapons. You can either use a Dragon Samurai breath and pool your fire damage (and only fire damage), or you can use your Dragon Shaman breath with Fivefold Breath of Tiamat, which does not stack damage from other breath weapons.

The entire basis of your build on the premise that it doesn't explicitly say that you can't do something is completely backwards. You only get to do exactly what the rules say you can do, you don't get to do whatever you can think of that the rules don't disallow.