How to best reduce an enemies will save?

[qazzquimby]

Do to a pretty complicated reason, I need a way to destroy a captive enemies will as much as possible.
The will save they need to make is pretty easy, but I can usually have them restrained while everything's happening.
Also, I don't have any levels to spare in the build, and I don't have any spellcasting levels, but I can still cast spells from scrolls and such.

Anyone have ideas?

[Humble Master]

Get them to fall asleep, then they don't even get a Will save for most things.

[Verditude]

Some way of inflicting negative levels is worthwhile. Either sic a wight on your restrained quarry or get a wand/couple scrolls of Enervation. Fear effects can also be potent, if you can succeed on an Intimidate check or some other method of causing fear that doesn't depend on their failing a will save.

[Waker]

Mind Fog imposes a -10 penalty on Will saves. That is a fairly big penalty to apply.

[EvilAvocado]

I was going to suggest mind fog!

Bestow Curse, Touch of Idiocy and certain poisons work as well.

[Crake]

Start with a touch of idiocy, spammed (or maximised) until you roll a 6 (it doesn't stack with itself, so -6 is the most you can get out of it). Then throw a bestow curse for another -6 to wisdom. That's a total of -12 to wisdom (minimum 1) resulting in up to -6 to will saves. If you follow that up with mind fog for -10, then you have -16. Follow up with enervations if that isn't low enough for you.

[qazzquimby]

That was fast, thanks!

I would love to put them to sleep, but sadly the effect wakes them up, even out of magical sleep.

This forum is such a wonderful resource.

EDIT: If there's any more to suggest, what possibilities are there that don't require spellcasting? Mostly because I'm cheap and it will spare me a lot of wands. Demoralizing is a very good start. I hope I'm not asking for the impossible.

[Flickerdart]

Get them to fall asleep, then they don't even get a Will save for most things.
This is a really common misconception, but it's still quite false. Being considered willing and foregoing saves are two distinct things that appear in different sections of the rules and have nothing to do with one another.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm sure there's some ways to deal Wisdom damage. A poison, or a spell or something.

[Nettlekid]

This is a really common misconception, but it's still quite false. Being considered willing and foregoing saves are two distinct things that appear in different sections of the rules and have nothing to do with one another.

I think unconscious targets are considered willing, though. I've heard that somewhere.

Also, you say the target can be restrained? Cast a ten-minute Geas and order him to completely open his mind to all mental intrusion. In metaspeak, order him to fail his save.

[Silva Stormrage]

Unseelie fey's can get massive penalties to enemies saving throws with the summer ability and a high charisma (Its a 5ft aura that gives a penalty to saves equal to the fey's charisma modifier) its a +0 template but since it looks like your build is set you can't really use that.

[Crake]

I think unconscious targets are considered willing, though. I've heard that somewhere.

Also, you say the target can be restrained? Cast a ten-minute Geas and order him to completely open his mind to all mental intrusion. In metaspeak, order him to fail his save.

Yes, they are considered willing for spells that require a willing target, such as teleport. They do not however forgo their saves vs other spells, so for example you can't automatically dominate a person while they're asleep, then at the end of the day order them to go to sleep and repeat the process ad infinium

[qazzquimby]

Is there any conditions with the same effects as sleeping or unconcious?
The effect directly states it wakes sleeping and unconcious targets allowing them to take their saving throws, but if there were a way it would make this all so easy.

[Keld Denar]

Mind Fog imposes a -10 penalty on Will saves. That is a fairly big penalty to apply.

The only problem with that is that in order to be affected by the Mind Fog, they have to fail a Will save. Which...if they were affected by the Mind Fog, they would have been affected by whatever followup spell you would have used. Otherwise, they make the relatively easy save and ignore the fog.

Better would be to stack things that don't allow saves to begin with, or have ridiculously high saves. Stacking fear, generally with no-save fear effects or partial save fear effects, works. Recruiting a Hexblade/Binder/Blackguard with Dark Companion + Foculor + Aura of Despair is quite effective, but might cause some alignment implications if you aren't evil. Targeting other saves, such as poisons (fort save) that deal Wis damage, might work, depending on the foe.

[Slipperychicken]

Wis damage/drain (can bring Wis mod down to -5)
Shaken/demoralized (-2) You can use Intimidate.
Sickened (-2)
Negative Levels (-1 each. Find out how many HD he has so you don't kill him)
Level Loss (Can reduce base save bonus, not as efficiently as Negative levels)
Mind Fog (-10, but requires will save)



The only problem with that is that in order to be affected by the Mind Fog, they have to fail a Will save. Which...if they were affected by the Mind Fog, they would have been affected by whatever followup spell you would have used. Otherwise, they make the relatively easy save and ignore the fog.

It is good if your target is captive and the spell you want to land has a material components/XP cost (or for whatever reason you can't prepare it much).

[qazzquimby]

Is there a free way to sicken? Now that I have all these options I need to try to achieve them as cheaply as possible. Thanks for all help everyone.

[Waker]

Is there a free way to sicken? Now that I have all these options I need to try to achieve them as cheaply as possible. Thanks for all help everyone.

Natural 1 on a Profession (Cooking)?

[Darth Stabber]

Unseelie fey's can get massive penalties to enemies saving throws with the summer ability and a high charisma (Its a 5ft aura that gives a penalty to saves equal to the fey's charisma modifier) its a +0 template but since it looks like your build is set you can't really use that.

Actually that's the winter ability, the summer ability is "magic circle of nature", which is a magic circle against everything but fae, animals, magical beasts, and I think maybe giants (I think it was all the things covered by know:nature).


Is there a free way to sicken? Now that I have all these options I need to try to achieve them as cheaply as possible. Thanks for all help everyone.

Polymorph into a troglodyte.

[Silva Stormrage]

Actually that's the winter ability, the summer ability is "magic circle of nature", which is a magic circle against everything but fae, animals, magical beasts, and I think maybe giants (I think it was all the things covered by know:nature).



Whoops, thank you for correcting me :smallredface: Misremembered that.

[Slipperychicken]

Is there a free way to sicken? Now that I have all these options I need to try to achieve them as cheaply as possible. Thanks for all help everyone.

Maybe your DM will induce the condition if you can force vomiting, like by shoving something nasty down the victim's throat.

[Shining Wrath]

Allips - the all-purpose solution to all things willful. Dismiss before death.

[Humble Master]

This is a really common misconception, but it's still quite false. Being considered willing and foregoing saves are two distinct things that appear in different sections of the rules and have nothing to do with one another. Hmm. Thank you for correcting me.

Well, there is always poisons for getting people's Wis down. Also keep in mind that you could pump the DC of your spell up with metamagic and stuff as well.

[Rebel7284]

I recall MIC has a weapon property that deals Wis damage when damaging an opponent with no power points.

[qazzquimby]

What's MIC?

What's the cheapest way to summon an allip, or apply negative levels?

[Flickerdart]

What's MIC?

What's the cheapest way to summon an allip, or apply negative levels?
Magic Item Compendium.

Summon Undead IV (Spell Compendium) has Allip on its list, I believe. Negative levels can be inflicted with tons of undead, or the Fell Drain metamagic feat.

[Shining Wrath]

Magic Item Compendium.

Summon Undead IV (Spell Compendium) has Allip on its list, I believe. Negative levels can be inflicted with tons of undead, or the Fell Drain metamagic feat.

The Allip reduces Wisdom score, not levels. Try making a Will save with a Wisdom of 2 and the concomitant modifier of -4.

[Flickerdart]

The Allip reduces Wisdom score, not levels.
I'm not sure what makes you think I did not know this.

[Crasical]

:smallconfused: Unconscious, helpless enemies still get saves? That seems wrong. I mean, I can't find anything that says an unconscious target doesn't get a will save, but I also can't find anything that says they don't get a reflex save, either.

[qazzquimby]

Mindcrusher from MIC requries them to fail a will save, but if I can just keep on poking subdual damage at them, given time I should be able to flatten their wisdom.

Does anyone have a good, and hopefully very inexpensive way of restraining them so all this can take place? I can make do with lots of rope to begin with, but that's not going to work on more powerful targets.

[Barsoom]

Hire a 3rd level Paladin of Tyranny to stand next to them, for a -2 that stacks with everything.

[Icewraith]

I believe there are some torture rules floating around that involve dealing CON damage to the target. It's not will, but it is

1: Nonmagical
2: A nonmagical way of reducing an enemy's fort save so you can hit him with a will/save/energy drain (fort negates) effect, then use things like mind fog that are resisted by will.

Probably evil and out of something like the bovd, you are forewarned.

Alternatively you can spam suggestion on him (I suggest you do not resist then next spell cast on you) until he fails, then mind fog, then everything else.

[Darth Stabber]

Hire a 3rd level Paladin of Tyranny to stand next to them, for a -2 that stacks with everything.

For extra fun hire a unseelie paladin of tyranny to stand next to them, then they have -(2+cha) to saves.

Now I want to play an unseelie paladin of tyranny, one of the best bodyguards a caster could ask for.

[Flickerdart]

For extra fun hire a unseelie paladin of tyranny to stand next to them, then they have -(2+cha) to saves.

Now I want to play an unseelie paladin of tyranny, one of the best bodyguards a caster could ask for.
Unseelie Hexblade/Blackguard says what? :smallamused:

[Darth Stabber]

Unseelie Hexblade/Blackguard says what? :smallamused:

No reason you couldn't do all four. Unless you have problems with being a creature so detestably and loathsomely evil, but enough about politicians.

[Flickerdart]

No reason you couldn't do all four. Unless you have problems with being a creature so detestably and loathsomely evil, but enough about politicians.
Blackguard and Paladin of Tyranny unfortunately don't stack, since both have the identical ability Aura of Despair.

[TuggyNE]

:smallconfused: Unconscious, helpless enemies still get saves? That seems wrong. I mean, I can't find anything that says an unconscious target doesn't get a will save, but I also can't find anything that says they don't get a reflex save, either.

There's nothing that says that. Possibly that's because they're still allowed Reflex saves? :smalltongue: To my knowledge, there is only one thing that will make you automatically fail Reflex saves, and that's having Dex -.

[lsfreak]

Blackguard and Paladin of Tyranny unfortunately don't stack, since both have the identical ability Aura of Despair.

A binder with Focalor, however, does, for an additional -2, obtainable with four levels, three levels + a feat, or two feats.

[Crasical]

There's nothing that says that. Possibly that's because they're still allowed Reflex saves? :smalltongue: To my knowledge, there is only one thing that will make you automatically fail Reflex saves, and that's having Dex -.

And helpless characters only have dex 0 instead of dex -. So you still get a reflex save, albiet at a -5 penalty....

Someone explain to me how a rogue can sleep through a fireball being centered on them?

[Waker]

And helpless characters only have dex 0 instead of dex -. So you still get a reflex save, albiet at a -5 penalty....

Someone explain to me how a rogue can sleep through a fireball being centered on them?

When a Rogue says they could dodge that in their sleep, they aren't being hyperbolic.

[lsfreak]

Someone explain to me how a rogue can sleep through a fireball being centered on them?

Saves are described as including divine intervention.

[qazzquimby]

A giant thumb and forefinger plucks the rogue out of the way, and gently puts them back where they were, being careful not to wake the poor guy.

[Slipperychicken]

A giant thumb and forefinger plucks the rogue out of the way, and gently puts them back where they were, being careful not to wake the poor guy.

The Rogue coincidentally dreams about the fireball's coming, and reflexively shifts into the Evasion-Dimension just long enough to avoid harm.

[qazzquimby]

Does anyone have a good and very inexpensive way to get them restrained for all this?

[Slipperychicken]

Does anyone have a good and very inexpensive way to get them restrained for all this?

That's the easy part; hold him down, tie him up, knock him out, whatever you want. Masterwork manacles help too; they're hard to burst.


Tying the guy up means he's conscious, and it's easier to verify if your spell worked (like if it was a mind-control). Rope is less than 10gp. Strong guys can burst rope, but it's much harder to burst manacles.

Holding him down can work if you've got someone big and strong to do it. It's not advisable since he still gets his opposed roll and needs to be attended, but it's really all you can do sometimes.

KO-ing him with nonlethal damage means you can keep him out as long as you want, but he can't really talk while unconscious. If you just need to scan his mind, this is a good option.

[O.j.s]

doomspeak is the best debuffer in the game. Side by side fear effects.

[Jack_Simth]

I think unconscious targets are considered willing, though. I've heard that somewhere.They are, but that's in the section on spells requiring "willing targets". So you can Teleport your unconscious buddy with you (it requires a willing target), but voluntarily forgoing a saving throw is a different matter entirely - you cast Dominate Person on your unconscious opponent, and they get their save as normal.

The sections are part of the Magic Overview (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm):
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. This is distinct from the section on voluntarily giving up a saving throw:
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.


I recall MIC has a weapon property that deals Wis damage when damaging an opponent with no power points.it made the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#mindcrusher). Put it on a sap or a whip if you don't want to kill them.