[3.5] Cat familiar - does he need improvement?

[ericp65]

Meet Damian, a black cat, who is the familiar of my 36th level arcane spellcaster (Darnelle) in the Forgotten Realms. Damian was acquired when Darnelle was a 13th level character. He's always eager to help her, but he's cowardly :) Here's his stat sheet as it currently stands:

Magical Beast
AL: N
Abilities: STR 3 DEX 15 CON 10 INT 19 WIS 12 CHA 7
HD 13, HP 29
Init +2, speed 30', Bass Att/Grapple +0/-12
AC 25 (touch 25, flat-footed 23), Sp/Reach 2 1/2' / 0'

BAB +6/+1
Claw +10/+5 1d2-4
Bite +7/+2 1d3-4

Fort +6
Ref +8
Will +9

SR 37

Skills: Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot

Feat: Weapon Finesse

Special Qualities: Alertness, Improved Evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master, speak with felines, SR, scry on familiar, Low-light Vision, Scent, Familiar Spell.

I'm pretty sure this needs fixing/improving. What would you suggest to add or change in order to bring this nice kitty as close to optimized/useful to his mistress as possible?

His only possession is a collar that's enchanted to allow him to fly (which he hates doing, and he flies like the Greatest American Hero from the old TV series of the same name).

[Psyren]

Not sure what you want out of him really. He's a cat, he's already evil incarnate a cute ball of fur, his combat prowess isn't really the point. You pick a cat because you want a cat, not because you can turn him into a blender of death on a whim.

...Which is not to say that you can't do that, but most of the ways of making your familiar deadly in a fight (generally involving sharing shapeshifting spells and other buffs) don't care what kind of familiar you have.

[CyberThread]

Something to consider, if you want the cat stuff.


You can do a hard upgrade, by getting a Tressyms from the forgotten realms campaign setting book which according to the book you can aquire through rp, not through the usual improved familer or whatnot.


What you cat gets out of it is , wings, dark vision , and oddly high INT rating of 12, and poison immunity.

[Spuddles]

What method did you use to get said familiar?

If you use Obtain Familiar, a feat from Complete Arcane, you can use your full arcane caster level for the purpose of familiar benefits.

Regardless, your familiar should have many, many more HP, HD, BAB, saving throws, and skills, because his master is 32nd level, not 13th.

[Eldaran]

Familiars don't scale with HD, they have effective HD for the purposes of things like Holy Word or Sleep, but otherwise their HD remains the same. But yeah everything else should be massively higher if you're 32nd level.

[Talya]

What method did you use to get said familiar?

If you use Obtain Familiar, a feat from Complete Arcane, you can use your full arcane caster level for the purpose of familiar benefits.

Regardless, your familiar should have many, many more HP, HD, BAB, saving throws, and skills, because his master is 32nd level, not 13th.

Familiars don't gain HD or skills when their master levels.

They do, however, gain HP, BAB, and saving throws. They also get to use their master's skill ranks if higher than their own, but that doesn't really give the familiar those ranks.

[CRtwenty]

By that point your Familiar's Int bonus should be high enough that it can start taking levles of Wizard itself. Yeah sure Familiars don't get class levels, but you're level 32, rules stopped applying to you about 12 levels ago. :smallwink:

http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/Beth21/SiriusisawizardattheValleyFair.jpg

[CyberThread]

By that point your Familiar's Int bonus should be high enough that it can start taking levles of Wizard itself. Yeah sure Familiars don't get class levels, but you're level 32, rules stopped applying to you about 1216 levels ago. :smallwink:

http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/Beth21/SiriusisawizardattheValleyFair.jpg


Fixed that

[Jeff the Green]

By that point your Familiar's Int bonus should be high enough that it can start taking levles of Wizard itself. Yeah sure Familiars don't get class levels, but you're level 32, rules stopped applying to you about 1216 31 levels ago. :smallwink:

http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/Beth21/SiriusisawizardattheValleyFair.jpg



Fixed that

Fixed your fix. :smalltongue:

[Spuddles]

Familiars don't gain HD or skills when their master levels.

They do, however, gain HP, BAB, and saving throws. They also get to use their master's skill ranks if higher than their own, but that doesn't really give the familiar those ranks.

Yeah that's what I meant. I just wanted to point out that the numbers were way off, not give everyone a lesson in familiar basics 101. :smallredface:

[ericp65]

What method did you use to get said familiar?

If you use Obtain Familiar, a feat from Complete Arcane, you can use your full arcane caster level for the purpose of familiar benefits.

Regardless, your familiar should have many, many more HP, HD, BAB, saving throws, and skills, because his master is 32nd level, not 13th.

Darnelle cast find familiar to obtain Damian when she was a 13th level character (and I was mistaken about her level, so I corrected it in the OP to 36th). It took place back when 2nd Edition was current.

[ericp65]

Yeah that's what I meant. I just wanted to point out that the numbers were way off, not give everyone a lesson in familiar basics 101. :smallredface:

Yeah, those are my main concerns. I'll have to re-familiarize (ouch!) myself with the rules, and see if I can shape up Damian as he should be.

Darnelle doesn't have any feats or anything else to improve her familiar. I thought about somehow transforming him into a dire animal, but after about 1/2 a second, I thought better of it.

[eggynack]

What do you want the cat to do, exactly. I mean, it's a cat. You're a 36th level wizard. There aren't many ways, or maybe there aren't any ways, for a cat to impact the power of a 36th level wizard. I mean, if you had something that could work a wand, maybe you could pull some shenanigans with that, but that'd still be leaps and bounds away from changing how powerful you are. It just seems kinda pointless, when you get right down to it. Maybe you can improve your cat by wiping out all non-feline life on the planet, and making your familiar the emperor of the cats. That'd make him pretty powerful, I guess. He'd probably be a bit of a puppet cat-emperor, and his decrees might get ignored by his cat subjects on occasion, but he'd wear a fancy crown, and it'd all be rather adorable.

[Spuddles]

What do you want the cat to do, exactly. I mean, it's a cat. You're a 36th level wizard. There aren't many ways, or maybe there aren't any ways, for a cat to impact the power of a 36th level wizard. I mean, if you had something that could work a wand, maybe you could pull some shenanigans with that, but that'd still be leaps and bounds away from changing how powerful you are. It just seems kinda pointless, when you get right down to it. Maybe you can improve your cat by wiping out all non-feline life on the planet, and making your familiar the emperor of the cats. That'd make him pretty powerful, I guess. He'd probably be a bit of a puppet cat-emperor, and his decrees might get ignored by his cat subjects on occasion, but he'd wear a fancy crown, and it'd all be rather adorable.

I dunno, a cat with 39 ranks (ok pseudo-ranks, get off my balls) in diplomacy & UMD, a +40 int epic spell sitting on it, and a whole pile of toys could probably take over most of the greyhawk campaign setting.

Fluffy the Destroyer, Ambassador of the Wizardking.

[eggynack]

I dunno, a cat with 39 ranks (ok pseudo-ranks, get off my balls) in diplomacy & UMD, a +40 int epic spell sitting on it, and a whole pile of toys could probably take over most of the greyhawk campaign setting.

Fluffy the Destroyer, Ambassador of the Wizardking.
Well, that's the plan, anyway. It just seems a bit on the pointless side. If your cat can take over the campaign setting, then you can take over the campaign setting without even trying. Any use you could get out of the cat is pure novelty. It'd be quite amusing to set up your cat familiar as the official ruler of all things, but amusing is all it is.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Well, that's the plan, anyway. It just seems a bit on the pointless side. If your cat can take over the campaign setting, then you can take over the campaign setting without even trying. Any use you could get out of the cat is pure novelty. It'd be quite amusing to set up your cat familiar as the official ruler of all things, but amusing is all it is.

If your cat rules everything you are only a secondary target. A cat familiar's life is worth at most a few xp. Your life can cost you levels.

[eggynack]

If your cat rules everything you are only a secondary target. A cat familiar's life is worth at most a few xp. Your life can cost you levels.
Perhaps, but you could easily set up something far better as your puppet king. For example, astral projection makes a solid option, and some kind of simulacrum or ice assassin would be great as well. This isn't really a cat thing so much as it is a random extra target thing.

[Jeff the Green]

If your cat rules everything you are only a secondary target. A cat familiar's life is worth at most a few xp. Your life can cost you levels.

Eh, a contingent revivify is only 5500 GP, so you can easily afford a few dozen of those at level 32. On the other hand, if your familiar dies you have to wait a year and a day to call another one.

[Spuddles]

You're a level 36 wizard. Is there anything you aren't doing for the lols?

[eggynack]

You're a level 36 wizard. Is there anything you aren't doing for the lols?
Oh, very true. Cat optimization seems like an arbitrarily enjoyable path to take in general. It just feels like the title's question, "Does he need improvement?" is a bit misleading within those terms. What I'm saying is that the answer is no. Strictly speaking, there's really nothing that can be done with a 36th level wizard's cat familiar that can't be done without the cat. It's just not a necessary component of any plan. Still, there are worse things you can do than installing a cat based empire, which is the reason I suggested it. If you want to make your cat powerful, how much more powerful can you get than making him the most powerful being on earth (Lots. Like, maybe we can install him as a deity of some kind. Still world ruling is a good start.)

[CRtwenty]

If I was your DM I'd have a rival Wizard with a Dog familiar appear and challenge you in an epic duel to see which species will become the new ruler of the world.

[Spuddles]

Eh, a contingent revivify is only 5500 GP, so you can easily afford a few dozen of those at level 32. On the other hand, if your familiar dies you have to wait a year and a day to call another one.

What would your wording on those contingent revivifies be?

[Jeff the Green]

What would your wording on those contingent revivifies be?

"I die"? There's really only one circumstance when they're useful.

Edit:
Ah, I see what you mean; you don't want all to go off at once. Here's the solution:

Let n be the number of contingent revivifys you have.
Let ri be the ith contingent revivify.
The conditions under which ri activates is "I die and have n-(i-1) contingent revivifys remaining on me."


The other solution, which is cheaper but takes longer and requires an ally to cast spells within 1 round/level of you dying, is to cast revenance (CD) and then revivify. Revenance brings the target back to life for 1 min./level, at the end of which they die. Then you cast revivify the round after it ends.

Really, at these levels HP isn't your concern. You care about your defenses (AC, miss chances, saves) and the number of tactical resurrections you have, and whether they can be overcome. So, for example, revifify won't help you if you're killed with a death effect or something that instantly turns you into an undead, so you probably want a few contingent true resurrections (40,300 GP) on hand in case your death ward gets stripped. You'll also need contingent healing spells to go off when your revivifys do since it leaves you at -1.

[eggynack]

"I die"? There's really only one circumstance when they're useful.

Edit:
Ah, I see what you mean; you don't want all to go off at once. Here's the solution:

Let n be the number of contingent revivifys you have.
Let ri be the ith contingent revivify.
The conditions under which ri activates is "I die and have n-(i-1) contingent revivifys remaining on me."


I've always been a bit wary of contingencies that are reliant on odd pieces of information like that. Like, how does a contingency know how many contingencies you have on? There isn't much of a mechanism for it, or there is, but it's still a weird meta-thing. I'd prefer to define it in terms of death quantity. Like, the first contingency is activated by you dying once, and the second is defined by you dying twice, and so on and so forth. It seems like a much simpler way to go about things.

Edit: Actually, that method is reliant on the occurance of multiple events. You might be able to define dying twice as a singular event, but I don't know for certain. Anyways, it lends credence to your method.

[Jeff the Green]

I've always been a bit wary of contingencies that are reliant on odd pieces of information like that. Like, how does a contingency know how many contingencies you have on? There isn't much of a mechanism for it, or there is, but it's still a weird meta-thing. I'd prefer to define it in terms of death quantity. Like, the first contingency is activated by you dying once, and the second is defined by you dying twice, and so on and so forth. It seems like a much simpler way to go about things.

Edit: Actually, that method is reliant on the occurance of multiple events. You might be able to define dying twice as a singular event, but I don't know for certain. Anyways, it lends credence to your method.

The entry in Complete Arcane is frustratingly vague. It gives some examples of triggers, but never gives requirements or negative examples. It says they're similar to contingency, the text of which says "If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on." Of course, it doesn't say what's complicated or convoluted. :smallannoyed:

I don't think my method is convoluted or complicated (and given that contingent spells are only similar to contingency, they might not even fail when given complicated instructions. Knowing how many contingencies are active on you doesn't seem much more far-fetched than "exposure to a dangerous environment" or "exposure to a breath weapon," both of which are explicitly allowed.

Edit:
Another possible option is "I am dead." Nothing happens simultaneously in D&D 3.5, so one spell activates, then another, then another, etc. So you become dead and the conditions for all your contingent revivifys activates. One of them has to go first, and once it goes, the others no longer have the triggering condition so don't go off.

[eggynack]

The entry in Complete Arcane is frustratingly vague. It gives some examples of triggers, but never gives requirements or negative examples. It says they're similar to contingency, the text of which says "If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on." Of course, it doesn't say what's complicated or convoluted. :smallannoyed:

I don't think my method is convoluted or complicated (and given that contingent spells are only similar to contingency, they might not even fail when given complicated instructions. Knowing how many contingencies are active on you doesn't seem much more far-fetched than "exposure to a dangerous environment" or "exposure to a breath weapon," both of which are explicitly allowed.

Edit:
Another possible option is "I am dead." Nothing happens simultaneously in D&D 3.5, so one spell activates, then another, then another, etc. So you become dead and the conditions for all your contingent revivifys activates. One of them has to go first, and once it goes, the others no longer have the triggering condition so don't go off.
Maybe you're right on that account. The part of my brain that handles rules issues tends to shut down when enough contingencies get involved. I dunno about the weird simultaneous trigger thing though. In particular, I'm not sure that the part about nothing happening simultaneously is necessarily true. For example, cloudy conjuration appears to occur at the exact same time as the spell which birthed it.

[ericp65]

Not sure what you want out of him really. He's a cat, he's already evil incarnate a cute ball of fur, his combat prowess isn't really the point. You pick a cat because you want a cat, not because you can turn him into a blender of death on a whim.

...Which is not to say that you can't do that, but most of the ways of making your familiar deadly in a fight (generally involving sharing shapeshifting spells and other buffs) don't care what kind of familiar you have.

I will not dispute the cats being evil bit ;) Yeah, I don't want to remake him into some kind of terror, except that he does enjoy becoming larger and chasing your larger rats *L* Mostly, I wanted to correct/update his details, and add anything I'm not currently taking advantage of (due to my ignorance) that would make him more effective in his role as a familiar.

[ericp65]

Something to consider, if you want the cat stuff.


You can do a hard upgrade, by getting a Tressyms from the forgotten realms campaign setting book which according to the book you can aquire through rp, not through the usual improved familer or whatnot.


What you cat gets out of it is , wings, dark vision , and oddly high INT rating of 12, and poison immunity.

I've considered a Tressym as a replacement, in the event that Damian should perish.

[ericp65]

Oh, very true. Cat optimization seems like an arbitrarily enjoyable path to take in general. It just feels like the title's question, "Does he need improvement?" is a bit misleading within those terms. What I'm saying is that the answer is no. Strictly speaking, there's really nothing that can be done with a 36th level wizard's cat familiar that can't be done without the cat. It's just not a necessary component of any plan. Still, there are worse things you can do than installing a cat based empire, which is the reason I suggested it. If you want to make your cat powerful, how much more powerful can you get than making him the most powerful being on earth (Lots. Like, maybe we can install him as a deity of some kind. Still world ruling is a good start.)

So, pretty much just correct his data, and leave him as-is. I'm wondering really how useful and valuable an asset he can be to his mistress, given his relative fragility...especially as his mistress plans to go planes-hopping.

[ericp65]

I've never even considered the possibility of raising a familiar from death (mostly because, well, cats don't have souls/spirits the same as humanoids do). My understanding has been that, if a familiar dies, its master loses twice its HP, and it's permanently dead, so go seek another familiar if you want a replacement.

[eggynack]

So, pretty much just correct his data, and leave him as-is. I'm wondering really how useful and valuable an asset he can be to his mistress, given his relative fragility...especially as his mistress plans to go planes-hopping.
Basically, yeah. I mean, if you have some particular purpose for the fuzz ball, we can give you advice towards that end. Familiars are just kinda irrelevant by your level, so optimization is a bit on the pointless side.

[ericp65]

Basically, yeah. I mean, if you have some particular purpose for the fuzz ball, we can give you advice towards that end. Familiars are just kinda irrelevant by your level, so optimization is a bit on the pointless side.

Maybe she'll just keep him around as more of a pet and "scout" than anything else. My feeling is that she doesn't really need a familiar at all anymore, but it was nice to have him back when she was at 13th - 18th level.

[ericp65]

After revisiting the PH and DMG, and checking the SRD entry, I've arrived at these changes:

INT 23

AC 34 (touch 34, ff 32)

Attacks: claw +8/+3, bite +8/+3

Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +11

SR 41

And three iterations of Familiar Spell (three spells of 8th level or lower from mistress' list).

I hope that's everything sorted. Darnelle has the 2nd level spell augment familiar, in case she ever finds a need for it.

Unless any corrections are needed, I'll run with it. Thanks!

[Psyren]

Share Shapechange with it and become Team Solars. The actual familiar itself is, as I said earlier, pretty irrelevant.

[ericp65]

Cool. Thanks everyone for helping me to put this into perspective, and to shape up Damian as he's supposed to be :)

[Ruethgar]

Legends and Lairs Spells and Spellcraft, expend XP to give bonuses to your familiar. Quintessential Druid lets you basically enchant him with a spell as a SLA, requires a fort save but at that level I think you would auto-ace it. As to Official material, I don't know. Spells and Spellcraft was the only reason I ever thought of keeping up with a familiar until I found the specialist wizard variants and Race of the Dragon.

[ericp65]

Legends and Lairs Spells and Spellcraft, expend XP to give bonuses to your familiar. Quintessential Druid lets you basically enchant him with a spell as a SLA, requires a fort save but at that level I think you would auto-ace it. As to Official material, I don't know. Spells and Spellcraft was the only reason I ever thought of keeping up with a familiar until I found the specialist wizard variants and Race of the Dragon.

Cool, I have those references, so I'll look at 'em :)

[EDIT] One out of two ain't bad. I have the Quintessential II series, but not I, so I'll have to look for that Quintessential Druid.

[Spuddles]

As Psyren says, the particular familiar you have is irrelevant, but share spells makes having a familiar pretty handy.

Generally, optimized combat familiar strategies revolve around either the familiar using UMD to help your action advantage in combat, or just sharing spells on the familiar that greatly increase its abilities.

For instance, the two of you could shapechange into beholders and burrow through a castle with disintegrate eyebeams. As soon as danger shows up, the familiar just free action turns into something small and hides inside a bag of holding or whatever on your caster.

[ericp65]

As Psyren says, the particular familiar you have is irrelevant, but share spells makes having a familiar pretty handy.

Generally, optimized combat familiar strategies revolve around either the familiar using UMD to help your action advantage in combat, or just sharing spells on the familiar that greatly increase its abilities.

For instance, the two of you could shapechange into beholders and burrow through a castle with disintegrate eyebeams. As soon as danger shows up, the familiar just free action turns into something small and hides inside a bag of holding or whatever on your caster.

That kind of thing is up my alley. Damian has always been quick to jump into a pack, or a bag of holding or similar, when danger is near :)