Best Weapon

[Ruethgar]

I am playing a priest based Chameleon and only get one martial weapon, what should it be? Currently I was thinking the Dagger-Axe for the narrow damage range(1h 1d4+3 x2 crit 1lb 10gp). Any better suggestions?

[LordBlades]

I am playing a priest based Chameleon and only get one martial weapon, what should it be? Currently I was thinking the Dagger-Axe for the narrow damage range(1h 1d4+3 x2 crit 1lb 10gp). Any better suggestions?

Falchion if you plan acquirung significant damage bonuses(as in more than 50 or so per hit), greatsword otherwise.

[Amphetryon]

If you can acquire the enhancements to make tripping a viable weapon strategy, Guisarme makes a fine choice.

EDIT: If you're a DEX-based priest (or getting WIS to Ranged attacks), (Composite) Longbow is a very good option.

[Slipperychicken]

Falchion if you plan acquirung significant damage bonuses(as in more than 50 or so per hit), greatsword otherwise.

Seconded. Once you get big damage bonuses, critical chance becomes much more important for your dpr than base weapon damage.

[Ruethgar]

Strength included
Greatsword 5-15 with 19-20 crit
Falchion 5-11 with 18-20 crit
Dagger Axe 5-9 6-9 crit on 20 dual wield 9-17 11-17

So is higher crit range really worth it? I could get more damage from dagger-axes at the cost of -2 hit or I could use a shield for a bit more armor.

[yougi]

The consensus about weapons is that a two-handed weapon is always superior to a one-handed weapon with a shield because of the increased damage bonuses (from Strength and power attack), and because shield bonus to AC can be obtained from animated shields, which do not take up a hand. Two-weapon fighting is also seen as ineffective, unless you have large amounts of bonus damage per attack (sneak attack, for example).

However, from what you are saying, I doubt this game is very highly optimized. In which case, I'd just let you know that as a non-roguish character, two weapon fighting is pretty weak. In a low-op game, using a shield and a 1H vs using a 2H weapon is not as clear cut. However, the best 1Hs are either morningstar (which is simple, allowing you to spend that martial proficiency on a bow), longsword or battleaxe, and the best 2Hs, greatsword or a reach weapon (such as the guisarme).

[Ruethgar]

But wouldn't the greater low-end damage of the dagger-axe average out to better than the longsword or battleaxe? Or are better criticals just that important?

[Amphetryon]

But wouldn't the greater low-end damage of the dagger-axe average out to better than the longsword or battleaxe? Or are better criticals just that important?

No, the average damage of a 1-4 damage weapon will not be higher than the average damage of a 1-8 damage weapon. That's just not how the math works, sorry.

[LordBlades]

Strength included
Greatsword 5-15 with 19-20 crit
Falchion 5-11 with 18-20 crit
Dagger Axe 5-9 crit on 20 dual wield 9-17

So is higher crit range really worth it? I could get more damage from dagger-axes at the cost of -2 hit or I could use a shield for a bit more armor.

At low level (BAB<6). You get 1 attack with greatsword (avg 10 damage), or 2 Dagger Axe attack for 13 average damage (slightly better), but they cost you a feat, you still get -2 on both of them, and they take up a full-round action, as opposed to the greatsword attack, which takes up a standard action (so you can move before or after you attack, or charge).


With BAB>6 you get 1 extra attack with your greatsword, but only 1 extra attack with your main hand Dagger Axe. In order to get an extra attack with your off-hand as well, you need another feat.

Also, that -2 on attacks shows. Consider an average opponent, that you'd hit on an 11+ (so 50% chance to hit). The greatsword does on average10x0.5=5 damage per round. The two dagger axe attacks hit on a 13+ (so 0.4 chance to hit). This means they deal on average 13x0.4=5.2 damage per round, so much smaller difference than 'in theory'.

[Ruethgar]

No, the average damage of a 1-4 damage weapon will not be higher than the average damage of a 1-8 damage weapon. That's just not how the math works, sorry.
Dagger-Axes do 4-7 not 1-4.

So ever so slightly better damage to start, but loss of mobility and once I can power attack and get iterative attacks that damage goes right out the window. Claybeg 3d4 1h marshal 19-20 x2. So 18*0.4=7.2 DPR. It is clearly supposed to be a 2h by the description, either way its good. Lucerne hammer is also nice, 1d12+1 marshal 2h x4.

[Big Fau]

But wouldn't the greater low-end damage of the dagger-axe average out to better than the longsword or battleaxe? Or are better criticals just that important?

First what book is the Dagger-Axe from, cause from what you've been describing they sound very homebrew or 3rd party (which your DM may not allow).

Second a weapon's damage dice stop being relevant around the level you'll be playing at. At those levels you'll get more from enhancements and Str (and Power Attack) than you would from just the weapon itself, and 2-handers are better at doing damage due to the +50% Str and double Power Attack benefits.

Criticals are nice, but not frequent enough to worry about (unless you go crit fishing and get a 12-20 threat range).

[Ruethgar]

Gary Gygax's World Builder is where the dagger-axe, lucerne hammer and claybeg are from and the book has already been approved by the DM.

[Captnq]

What are you trying to do, is the question.

Manyfang dagger. Buy it one size class bigger. Add on the WSA Balanced from A&EG. Or use monkey grip feat. Now you can wield your light weapon with two hands and power attack is x2

Let's say str 16, you burn 5 points of BAB for power attack.

Damage based on increased size: 1d6
Damage from EB: +1
Damage from Str: +3
Damage from Power Attack: +10
Manyfang Dagger multiplier to EVERY ATTACK: x4
Equation: (1d6+14)x4
Average: 70 hp every blow

Remove Power attack: 30 hp avg.

There. Spiffy weapon. However, it requires using a book that some DMs flat out ban.

Do you want to do criticals?
MAQUAHUITL 1d10 1d12 19-20/x4 N/A 30 B 15 315 [Exotic, Two-Handed, Melee, Wood, Weapon]

And it doesn't have that confusion that the greathammer (possible) misprint has.

How about weird?

SCISSORS SWORD 2d6 2d8 19-20/x2 N/A 25 S 100 400 [Exotic, Two-Handed, Melee, Metal, Weapon, Grappling]

Okay, it's a six-handed weapon. Buy it with hornblade or balanced and now you can use it with one hand.

Give me something to work with.

[Ruethgar]

I wanted to make a character that could do decently at everything or change focus at a whim to fill any role. I didn't really like the severely limited spellcasting of Factotum so went with chameleon to get my jack of all trades needs, priest to shuffle domain feats, reserve mage for some bonus abilities(and shuffleable feats) and human paragon because it is awesome.

Thus far he is looking horrible. Has some neat abilities, but damage output is looking pathetic, can't even reach 3k in one round.

[Irk]

What book is the Maquahuitl in? I know what it looks like in real life and everything, but I can't find it.

[Herabec]

I wanted to make a character that could do decently at everything or change focus at a whim to fill any role. I didn't really like the severely limited spellcasting of Factotum so went with chameleon to get my jack of all trades needs, priest to shuffle domain feats, reserve mage for some bonus abilities(and shuffleable feats) and human paragon because it is awesome.

Thus far he is looking horrible. Has some neat abilities, but damage output is looking pathetic, can't even reach 3k in one round.

Not reaching 3k damage in a round is your criteria for pathetic?

Oh my GOD! I've been playing weaklings this whole time! :smalleek:

[Amphetryon]

Dagger-Axes do 4-7 not 1-4.

So ever so slightly better damage to start, but loss of mobility and once I can power attack and get iterative attacks that damage goes right out the window. Claybeg 3d4 1h marshal 19-20 x2. So 18*0.4=7.2 DPR. It is clearly supposed to be a 2h by the description, either way its good. Lucerne hammer is also nice, 1d12+1 marshal 2h x4.
4 - 7 takes into account the STR of the wielder, or is 3rd party (confirmed by your sourcing of it), or both. As I have no direct access to the source you've listed, I cannot say which of the above are true other than the 3rd party status. If it truly does not have a damage that starts at the lowest possible die roll value, then that is unique in my experience with 3.X; it's either unique to the weapon, or unique to the source. I strongly suspect that the damage is listed within the stat-block of a particular creature or encounter, and takes the STR into account. The other alternative is that this particular weapon is disproportionately good, relative to other Martial (and many Exotic) weapons, though not to the "balance" of the game as a whole.

[faircoin]

I wanted to make a character that could do decently at everything or change focus at a whim to fill any role. I didn't really like the severely limited spellcasting of Factotum so went with chameleon to get my jack of all trades needs, priest to shuffle domain feats, reserve mage for some bonus abilities(and shuffleable feats) and human paragon because it is awesome.

Thus far he is looking horrible. Has some neat abilities, but damage output is looking pathetic, can't even reach 3k in one round.

Do tell. :smallconfused: Unless I'm being cheesy, I can't reach even 1.5k in a round with a mailman sorcerer.

[Ruethgar]

It is not in a creature stat block... I don't think there is a single creature in that book. But yes, it is pretty much unique to the source. Several of the weapons listed have things like 1d4+3, 1d8+1, 1d12+1, Dagger-Axe is just the most severe with +3.

Claw lock with temple swordsman or some other way to treat claws as unarmed, beast strike, circle kick, lightning fists, rapid strike, one-two punch etc with the attack stacking. 707-5650 if you aren't charging every round, no good reason not to charge considering he has a 30ft port as a swift action and pounce and does double damage on charge. Of course, yes it requires cheese of the chaos shuffle variety.

Had another who focused on pumping a single spell, 4k to 11k AoE auto-hit within 10 feet. That one was just an experiment to see if I could disable the tarasque in one fell blow. That character is horrible leveling up though and used cheese no DM should ever think to allow... or the ground would just melt under him and he would drown in lava. lol

One that focused on produce flame 2k to 2.2k, pretty nice.

Cheese with Speak High Draconic and the dark giant polymorph skill boost can be of great use in making spells that should have no right to exist.

Spellpowered template.

An alchemy thrower I made once could dish out a wallop, but not 3k on one target. He was more about incinerating the field than obliterating the boss. Still did more than enough too kill upper tier mooks. Way too much down time crafting though is why I made the produce flame guy above. Fewer targets, but more damage per target.

I suppose 3k is a bit much to hold as a standard, 500 then. I'm sure he could pull that off with a little Blood Power, might kill him but w/e.

[Shining Wrath]

Strength included
Greatsword 5-15 with 19-20 crit
Falchion 5-11 with 18-20 crit
Dagger Axe 5-9 6-9 crit on 20 dual wield 9-17 11-17

So is higher crit range really worth it? I could get more damage from dagger-axes at the cost of -2 hit or I could use a shield for a bit more armor.

As an example, suppose you are fighting something you'll hit on 15 or above (fairly hard to hit). The average damage for a greatsword hit is 10, for a falchion is 8, and for a dagger axe is 7.5.
That is a base 30% chance to hit. Ignoring criticals for the moment, the greatsword gives you .3*10 = 3, the falchion .3*8= 2.4, and the dagger axe .3*7.5= 2.25 points per round (single attack).

The chance of a critical hit for the greatsword is .1*.3 = 0.03, for the falchion is .15*.3=0.045, and for dagger axe 0.05*0.3 = 0.015. The total expected damage per round is therefore:
Greatsword: 10*(0.3+0.03) = 3.3 points per round
Falchion: 8*(0.3+0.045)=2.75 points per round.
Dagger Axe:7.5*(0.3+0.015)=2.3625.

I'm assuming you get to add "3" for Strength for all weapons, although a two-handed weapon like a greatsword should add an additional 50% compared to a one hander like a falchion. So that would boost greatsword by another .33 per round.

Contrary to what others have said, critical hits do not multiply all bonus dice from things like "flaming" and "holy".

[Big Fau]

Gary Gygax's World Builder is where the dagger-axe, lucerne hammer and claybeg are from and the book has already been approved by the DM.

That book isn't a player sourcebook. While the stats contained within are d20-compatible, the book itself isn't really a good source to use, and the Lucerne Hammer was given "official" stats in the Dragon Compendium (which means those stats take precedent over the World Builder's).

Even if your DM gave the book the green light, I wouldn't use anything in it if I were you.

Edit: What the hell kinda campaign are you playing in where you need to break 500 damage? When you are playing rocket tag of that extreme amount the weapon's base damage is utterly meaningless.

Seriously, there's virtually no difference between 1d4+3 and 1d8 at that kind of optimization.

[Ruethgar]

Edit: What the hell kinda campaign are you playing in where you need to break 500 damage? When you are playing rocket tag of that extreme amount the weapon's base damage is utterly meaningless.

That actually made me laugh because really it is true, I should be making things with flavor more than sheer damage. But I don't really see 500 as that much, what should be the average of a lvl 20? 15d6 from a straight hellfire warlock? Low end damage is what seems to suffer the most from the base damage. All the weapons with multiple damage die or otherwise higher low end on damage all help alleviate that. That's why the produce flame guy is one of my favorites, blistering spell makes all of his rolls less significant vs the claw lock who can do down to less than 20% of his maximum damage depending on luck.

Fair enough on the world builder, greatsword it is then I suppose.

[Deadline]

One that focused on produce flame 2k to 2.2k, pretty nice.

I guess I've got to ask, how are you hitting that number with Produce Flame and Blistering Spell?

[Ruethgar]

Produce flame is not a weapon like spell but when you use it to throw the flames are treated a thrown weapons which opens up all of the multiple attack options inherent there-in. Furthermore, the wording of produce flame allows an iteration per hand so long as the first iteration is no longer in an open palm(i.e. fist or weapon there). Being that produce flame does not actually have a target apart from your open palm, it can technically be stacked once per open palm in addition to the shots that can be stacked by regular re-castings of the spell. Heighten the spell to 9th for blistering bonus damage, sanctum for a 10th. Of course extend persist divine meta if you wish or innate spell it. Speak high draconic can be used to apply various metamagics from there(twin and repeat both function as lesser version of extend in this case so skip them) or Blood Power it in or some of the less cheesy methods to add metamagic(admix, empower, enervate, blistering, heighten, searing).Palm throw is the kicker, just like circle kick it can double your number of attacks. Two weapon fighting line and plenty of iteratives from the highest BaB you can muster. If you aren't using draconic or blood power, you're damage will suffer by about 40% but still good. Of course kobold cheese with war wyrm can help with the feats if you need it. And remember the targeteer fighter and chaos shuffle(web enhanced kobolds are also shufflable). All in all it is a grey area, but I wanted a guy based around that spell since the first time I read it, and now I have one.

[Deadline]

<snip>A bunch of TO tricks that are unlikely to fly in most games you play in.</snip>

Ah, gotcha. Never mind then.

[Big Fau]

That actually made me laugh because really it is true, I should be making things with flavor more than sheer damage. But I don't really see 500 as that much, what should be the average of a lvl 20?

15d6/Hit from Hellfire Glaivelock is usually decent, and you really only need 150-300 damage/round to hold your own as a 20th level noncaster. However doing damage at 20th level is usually a sure-fire way to get yourself killed. 20th level gameplay is all about spells and being able to out-Batman the other Batman. 500 damage/round is in the high-optimization realm, which means the casters (which makes up 90% of high-level encounters) are going to just point and laugh as the melee guy swings at air.

[Slipperychicken]

the casters (which makes up 90% of high-level encounters) are going to just point and laugh as the melee was dead long before he raised his sword

FTFY. Theoretical high-op casters run divinations so they can stop attacks before they happen.

[Irk]

@Ruethgar, from the same book, sleeve tangler deal 2d4+2 (4-10 damage), so that one is more, has a threat range of 18-20, but instead of extra damage, it disarms the opponent.

[LordBlades]

15d6/Hit from Hellfire Glaivelock is usually decent, and you really only need 150-300 damage/round to hold your own as a 20th level noncaster. However doing damage at 20th level is usually a sure-fire way to get yourself killed. 20th level gameplay is all about spells and being able to out-Batman the other Batman. 500 damage/round is in the high-optimization realm, which means the casters (which makes up 90% of high-level encounters) are going to just point and laugh as the melee guy swings at air.

Actually, damage, assuming you have a reliable way of delivering it (which swinging a sword sadly isn't) can work at high level, but only as long as you can reliably one-shot stuff with it (after all, 'dead' is merely another form of crowd control at that level). Still, even with that goal in mind, 2000 damage is way overkill for standard D&D 3.5. I can't remember atm any non-epic monster that goes over 1000 HP.

[Big Fau]

Actually, damage, assuming you have a reliable way of delivering it (which swinging a sword sadly isn't) can work at high level, but only as long as you can reliably one-shot stuff with it (after all, 'dead' is merely another form of crowd control at that level). Still, even with that goal in mind, 2000 damage is way overkill for standard D&D 3.5. I can't remember atm any non-epic monster that goes over 1000 HP.

I think the highest HP that a CR20 creature has (printed anyway) is in Elder Evils (Atropus has 650+, the rest have somewhere between 400-650).

[Shining Wrath]

I think the highest HP that a CR20 creature has (printed anyway) is in Elder Evils (Atropus has 650+, the rest have somewhere between 400-650).

Dragons: Great Wyrm Red avg 660, GW Gold avg 717.
The Tarrasque, because Size Does Matter: avg 858.

That's just from the SRD, since I am AFB.

How could you forget Dragons? Or Big T?

[Amphetryon]

Dragons: Great Wyrm Red avg 660, GW Gold avg 717.
The Tarrasque, because Size Does Matter: avg 858.

That's just from the SRD, since I am AFB.

How could you forget Dragons? Or Big T?

To be fair, Big T's HP are toward the end of the list of things many folks tend to remember about that creature, since their almost irrelevant without both a means to bypass DR and a Wish spell.