Killing vampire players

[Silus]

So I made a mistake at DMing and let a player pick up a Vampire template. Now they have like Fast Healing 5 and 10 DR.

I need ways to kill, or at least harm the character. Beyond specialist vamp hunters, I'm coming up blank.

[Lari]

Try to inspirate from the strip 906 :smallbiggrin:

[Deathkeeper]

Same campaign, Silus?
Well, vampiric DR is pierced by magic, so it isn't that bad to get past. A few people using Magic Weapon spells/oils is completely plausible. Not to mention that any TN spell casters that might oppose then can have Positive Energy (and feats) without being vamp hunters, and plenty if wizards have Command Undead which can ruin his day.

The problem is getting him to stay dead. If the party carries a coffin around he'll just reform and unless it gets stolen it'll be next to impossible to get him to stay dead without sunlight, somehow dumping a river on him, or a party wipe.

[Silus]

Same campaign, Silus?
Well, vampiric DR is pierced by magic, so it isn't that bad to get past. A few people using Magic Weapon spells/oils is completely plausible. Not to mention that any TN spell casters that might oppose then can have Positive Energy (and feats) without being vamp hunters, and plenty if wizards have Command Undead which can ruin his day.

The problem is getting him to stay dead. If the party carries a coffin around he'll just reform and unless it gets stolen it'll be next to impossible to get him to stay dead without sunlight, somehow dumping a river on him, or a party wipe.

Aye, same campaign (Lots of issues cropping up it seems).

Now, how about something that changes the template from vampire to something else? I got that Pink Cloud stuff I've been tinkering with, an "entropic, necromantic, pink-hued gas" that "has a deadly effect on living beings, seeping into flesh and lungs, rotting it and melting it, and potentially liquefying bodies into heaps of organic matter". Not really sure what the end result would be, but it sure as heck wouldn't be a vampire...

Edit: Reason I bring up the Pink Cloud is that the PCs are headed into an underground/Darklands (Orv level) ruined city that's all but next to the source of the pink cloud (A downed space craft that's likely been slowly leaking the stuff for millennia). Was gonna have the city more or less soaked with the stuff along with various undead and such. Anyway, short of it is, I'm not really sure where I could get the proper vampire-slaying whatnot in the next session or so.

[Khatoblepas]

Show them how much XP they need to get to their next level.

They'll want to be cured ASAP.

[Komatik]

I can't figure out why anyone would, from a mechanical standpoint, want to be a vampire. The +8 LA just makes me weep ;__;

EDIT:
For lessening / getting rid of the LA (let's face it, class levels are what matters anyway and LA is a **** mechanic) and simultaneously lessening the power gap, while keeping all the delicious vampire flavour in a not-gimped form:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220585

Reintroduce Summon Creatures of the Night as a somewhat higher level SLA (Screw the HD req from Spider Climb, perhaps, and make Summon an 8-9HD thing). No use/day limits, but casting time measured in minutes to make it a setup spell.
Not a fan of the idea of Rebuke controlling a Vampire, perhaps make Turn/Rebuke only function as Turn vs. Vampires? *shrug*

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Here's how I'd do it. So you wait for all the players to gather for the session. Make sure that the vampire is seated with their back to, say, the living room. Go out that way, and grab the stake and mallet that you've cunningly stowed ahead of time. Blaze back into the gaming room, and stake that cookie solid on your table.

It'll cause a mess, but what are friends for, if not to help hide the body?

--wait.

Sorry.

How many of your players have become vampires? You may want to phone in a professional slayer.

[Segev]

I'd like to first ask what your specific issue is. What your goal is. Are you trying to re-introduce threat to a PC who is suddenly more powerful than you'd expected and is now overwhelming the game? Are you trying to kill off the PC to just get rid of the problem? Are you trying to find ways to reduce the impact of the two specific powers (DR 10/magic and Fast Healing 5) that you listed?

The solutions to these are various and somewhat dependent on the problem you wish to solve.

If you just want to re-introduce threat, consider vampire weaknesses. He's vulnerable to Turn/Destroy and Rebuke/Command attempts from clerics. Holy symbols can hold him at bay, as can mirrors. Running water is a particularly problematic barrier for him. And he's definitely restricted to a nocturnal or wholly-underground activity cycle.

If you just want to kill him, discuss it with your player to come up with a suitably satisfying demise. Or, if that's not the kind of game you run, just hit him with oozes and things which require fortitude saves and affect objects.

The DR is easily overcome by other monsters with DR/magic or by Magic Fang or Magic Weapon. Spells generally ignore it, too. Fast Healing is tougher. Your best bet here is to just accept that he won't "stay down," and allow that to have you direct your heaviest hitting effects against him. Let him tank for the party, because his concern becomes not misting and leaving them behind to fend for themselves. K.O.ing him still can end the dungeon crawl as the party waits for him or goes looking for him in his coffin.

If he brings his coffin with him, that sounds deliciously vulnerable, and a good thing to frighten him with: attack it. You don't even have to seriously damage it; just make him feel it as a vulnerable point.

Remember, too, that having taken on this template, he's JUMPED in ECL, while not jumping in EXP. So he's not gaining levels for a very long time, and he's getting reduced EXP compared to the other PCs. That should, at the least, keep him from increasing much further in power for a while.

[Segev]

Oh, and if you're looking for ways to just remove the template...

There is a spell, I forget where or what it's called, that renders undead vulnerable to mind-affecting effects and/or which removes their "undead immunities" (including immunity to mind-affecting effects). Have a powerful psion seeking immortality learn of this PC vampire. Make the psion of a race you want the PC to be.

Hit the vampire with the "you can how be mind-affected" spell, and then True Mind Switch him.

[Telonius]

Wandering high-level Cleric. Detain the Vampire, slay the Vampire, cast True Resurrection.

[Aolbain]

First, I thought it was about killing people that played Vampire the masquerade/requiem.

[Grollub]

Just have an evil cleric show up and control them all, and have them make out or something :smallcool:

They will want to get rid of the template asap

[awa]

my first thought was really enforce that cant enter with out permission
you want to go on a dungeon crawl? well someone lives their so its a home sorry this cave is off limits.

But that just say no you cant play which is not a good solution.

What did you do with la? cause if hes a level 4 vampire in a level 12 party his dr and fast heal is definitely not a problem

[Big Fau]

Show them how much XP they need to get to their next level.

They'll want to be cured ASAP.

This, absolutely this. They will hate the LA of the template and practically beg to go back to normal.

[Deophaun]

I'm with those saying that the LA will take care of the problem in due time.

The biggest problem is the create spawn ability, but if abused you can expect vampire hunters to be tracking him down.

[Sheogoroth]

Make him need to feed.
Then when he wantonly starts tearing out throats, the vampire families(who run the underworld in a very balanced and hidden system) realize that this rogue accident vampire needs to go.
Also, that attracts the attention of the paladins. So then you've got big bad true vampires AND Paladins after him. Maybe the party will have enough of this crap and leave his overpowered undead hide to get torn to pieces.

Is your party evil? Feeding would be a pretty evil act, you might be able to get the party to kill him. If he doesn't want to feed, start throwing down starvation rules on him.
Bar him from feeding on orcs/goblins/other evils, make him take some peasants out to lunch.

[Perseus]

KamehamehahaaSUNBEEEAAAAM

[Flickerdart]

Don't give him +8 LA for free. Make him take the Vampire template class (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) instead.

[Feralventas]

2nding Flickerdart's suggestion; they don't get the LA for free, and must grow into their supernatural powers rather than rising as a full-fledged hunter of the night right off the bat.

Alternatively, let them keep it and prey on their inherent weaknesses. Attack in daylight while offering some small amount of shelter so as to provide a fair fight.

Enemy Clerics and Paladins, turning attempts sending undead fleeing for their lives in Panic (hah, fear effect that works on undead!). Also see the Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner for other fear and mind-affecting options to bypass the usual undead immunities.

Searing Light spells used as regular armaments for laser-blasting foes.

A lot of these things won't matter or don't have as much effect against normal PC options.

[Silus]

I'd like to first ask what your specific issue is. What your goal is. Are you trying to re-introduce threat to a PC who is suddenly more powerful than you'd expected and is now overwhelming the game? Are you trying to kill off the PC to just get rid of the problem? Are you trying to find ways to reduce the impact of the two specific powers (DR 10/magic and Fast Healing 5) that you listed?

Pretty much all of the above. I fee like I've written myself into a corner with this. And the Vampire is the least of the worries as I've also allowed for a player to become a werewolf. The only saving grace I can see is they mostly got the templates for free via selling parts of their soul, which will be coming to bite them in the butt later by #-of-soul-fragments-sold = Negatives-to-all-saves-vs-BBEG. So like the Vampire sells 10/20 bits of its soul, it gets a -10 on all saves vs the BBEG's spells and abilities (representing the BBEG's influence on the PC's soul and how much it "owns" them). Doesn't really help that the BBEG is a lvl 20 Sorcerer and (fluff-wise) a quasi-deity.

My only hesitation to directly gunning for his character is that I can't really figure a way out to do it without seeming heavy-handed. And it's not that I wanna kill off the character per-say, it's just...I don't know how to deal with it without throwing things at the party that's explicitly designed to deal with one of the characters...

[Segev]

Hm. What is the full party make-up? This sounds like more a thing that is an issue of making sure you don't splat some of the party to challenge the "tough" guys. But I could be wrong. An outline of what this party IS will help.

[CIDE]

IIRC the Pathfinder vampire is more balanced and playable.

[Silus]

IIRC the Pathfinder vampire is more balanced and playable.

Yup, pretty much. He's been unable to level up for like...two levels?


Hm. What is the full party make-up? This sounds like more a thing that is an issue of making sure you don't splat some of the party to challenge the "tough" guys. But I could be wrong. An outline of what this party IS will help.

Ah, sorry ^_^;

Should have mentioned that the game is Pathfinder, but I figured that seeking advice for dealing with vamp PCs wouldn't need that specialization >.>

Human Werewolf Fighter (2-handed weapon spec)
Drow Vampire Sorcerer/Rogue (Using a toned down version of the Drow)
Human Alchemist (trying to buy himself a partial construct augmentation)
Half-Elf Magus
Quickling Bard (Bard lvl 3 with Perform (Speed Metal))
Drow Rogue/Fighter (Usually not at the games)

All level 8 (save the Quickling and the Rogue/Fighter.

An idea that came to me in another thread about this issue might work as well (For reference, the PCs are gonna be facing off against star spawn minions of a corrupted star/space goddess in the second half of the campaign):


Well I don't figure that I'll be able to "deal with" the PCs (as in make them worry that they're gonna get killed by some big nasty so-and-so) in the next session or so. But...maybe that's a good thing?

Plan:
PCs storm through the ruined, undead filled city, beat down the BBEG they've been looking for, get back to the surface, feeling like heroes then temporarily go their separate ways. Enter the Star Spawn things above. They start showing up and start muscling in on the PC's turf (the planet). They go out to face the one/s that just plowed down to earth in front of their inn or wherever and the fight starts. Surprise, it's powers and whatnot have been augmented to 1) pass through Silver and Magic DR and 2) suppress Fast Healing.

"We know of you and your exploits. We have studied you. We have learned your strengths. And your weaknesses."

Alternatively, the Vampire character has been hinted to have some ties to the mystery BBEG (the players think it's some Lovecraftian horror) who may or may not appreciate their "champion" to have sold all their soul (from a technical standpoint) to become undead. Star Spawn capture/incapacitate the Vampire character and force a True Resurrection upon them with a sort of "The Master does not tolerate abominations in her ranks. You must be cleansed" sort of thing.

[Segev]

What are the levels of the PCs? I'm trying to see just how far ahead in terms of ECL the vampire and werewolf are.

[Silus]

What are the levels of the PCs? I'm trying to see just how far ahead in terms of ECL the vampire and werewolf are.

Well firstly, we're using the Pathfinder templates, so I'm not 100% sure if LA is gonna be an issue.

Secondly, all of them are (class) level 8 (save the bard, who is lvl 3).

[Segev]

PF templates don't have level adjustments? My mistake.

[awa]

they use cr instead

[Raven777]

Your player achieved vampirism. He's happy. I feel that arbitrarily taking his toys away from him is wrong.

[Kioras]

If he is too powerful, and obviously if someone is watching from the outside, have the monsters steadily through the days, step up in anti vampire tactics. Increased use of stakes, using silvered weapons, strongly presented holy symbols (any deity, evil or good).

Just encourage some monsters in running or escaping, or watching to see what he does. When they do get away to report on the effects have the tactics of the monsters improve when he is one of the major reasons the combats were lost.

He also has the thirst to deal with, in which doing so to an unwilling or charmed target is an evil act. Doing so without covering his tracks will set some vampire hunters on him, of varying competance.

I would only do that if his vampirism continues being a serious issue to campaign balance. His much slower speed of leveling will also mean he sits on the same abilities as others gain class levels.

[Silus]

Your player achieved vampirism. He's happy. I feel that arbitrarily taking his toys away from him is wrong.

It's less "I wanna take his toys away" and more of how am I going to deal with these new toys and still make thing challenging when the character can just be all "Welp, I died. Be back in a few days to try again."

[Spuddles]

Wait, so what level is this character, and the rest of the party?

In 3.5, a vampire character would be minimum level 9. DR/magic at level 9 is near useless. And with LA +8, you're seriously hurting for HPs and class abilities.



You could just let the PCs walk all over a couple sessions of encounters. The rest of the party will catch up in levels, they'll advance the plot, accomplish stuff, etc., all thanks to team TwilightSparkle. Then when the PCs catch up to the power level of gothboy, the antagonists show up with bigger, tougher threats.

This being PF, though, makes it so any discrepancy in levels will take longer to fix themselves.

[Segev]

Honestly, if he's having fun with "oh well, I'll try again when I regenerate," is it really a problem? It's still a setback. He still has to try again. It's little different than, "Oh, well, guess I need to spend another 5000 gp on diamonds and try again," which players get to the point of anyway.

Remember that fear of DEATH is not what you need to instill, especially not in D&D. It's challenge and failure.

The most frustrating encounter of a relatively new game I'm playing in happened tonight. We fought a Bugbear who, we discovered and assume, has a few character levels. We don't know how many. We drove him into retreat without him seriously injuring any of us, but we could not catch him because his AC was higher than any of us could hit more than 15% of the time, and he spent (at least) 900 gp worth of potions on 2nd level effects (two of which gave him Concealment at two different stages of the combat).

He finally escaped by hiding in dense foliage and making moves in unknown directions until we just had to give up. It's worth noting that our entire party of 2nd and 3rd level characters (6 PCs in all) don't have 900 gp worth of stuff between us. (We'd left two of the PCs behind to guard a town; they're "extra" PCs played by two of the players, so each player had one PC present. It might've gone better with all 6 there.)

At no point were any of us in danger of dying, but our primary wizard burned about 100 gp worth of scrolls (all of which she scribed herself) on the fight, and we got next to nothing (one unidentified potion he dropped in a bag as he was leaving, and I think that was a pity drop by the DM). So it was a definite loss: of the evening, of the time in-game, of resources.

So you don't have to put the fear of death in your players for their PCs. Failures can sting just as much if not more, and can make victories all the sweeter because of them, later.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

why didn't you just make that character into a vampire spawn, it doesn't have all the stuff of a true vampire.

[Fyermind]

Unless he's soloing while his allies sit around, him dying really weakens the party for a while and leaves them vulnerable to counter attacks.

Creeks will make everything exciting.

[NeoPhoenix0]

One question, why does everyone keep saying/implying that vampires have DR 10/magic? They have DR 10/silver and magic.

[Spuddles]

One question, why does everyone keep saying/implying that vampires have DR 10/magic? They have DR 10/silver and magic.

Because I read that it was DR/magic in post 3 and I never run vampires?

[TuggyNE]

Show them how much XP they need to get to their next level.

They'll want to be cured ASAP.

This is true.


If you just want to re-introduce threat, consider vampire weaknesses. He's vulnerable to Turn/Destroy and Rebuke/Command attempts from clerics. Holy symbols can hold him at bay, as can mirrors. Running water is a particularly problematic barrier for him. And he's definitely restricted to a nocturnal or wholly-underground activity cycle.
[…]
The DR is easily overcome by other monsters with DR/magic or by Magic Fang or Magic Weapon.

Turn and Rebuke, yes; Destroy and Command, not so much, since getting twice the HD past his turn resistance is non-trivial.

And, of course, the DR is not /magic, but /magic and silver. So very few monsters can penetrate it, oil of magic weapon does nothing except on a silver weapon, etc.


First, I thought it was about killing people that played Vampire the masquerade/requiem.

That… LOL.


Just have an evil cleric show up and control them all, and have them make out or something :smallcool:

As noted, that's impractical, because of the levels involved; possible, yes, with sufficient optimization or heavy-handed "lol he's totally level 25 you guise" fiat, but non-trivial.


Don't give him +8 LA for free. Make him take the Vampire template class (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) instead.

That might work, with due adjustments for PF.


One question, why does everyone keep saying/implying that vampires have DR 10/magic? They have DR 10/silver and magic.

Not sure, but it annoyed me. >_> These things matter!

[Vaern]

Sun Devotion. Complete Champion. You're welcome.

Once per day as a swift action, you can cause one of your melee weapons to glow with the power of the sun. The illumination radius is the same as that of a torch, but the light is true sunlight and affects creatures within a 10-foot radius as such. This effect lasts for 1 minute.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

OK, you destroyed the vampire and he's now gaseous and returning to his coffin, yes? Nope! The closed version of Forcecage or any other spell that creates an airtight entrapment will prevent them from returning to the coffin.


Also, there are quite a few effects that remain scary for regenerating immortal people. If you're playing Pathfinder, Thanatopic Enervation spells deal negative levels to undead (or anybody else).

[Deathkeeper]

One question, why does everyone keep saying/implying that vampires have DR 10/magic? They have DR 10/silver and magic.

Well, it's probably because the CRB says "after the slash is what kind of weapons overcome DR," and therefore I always assumed that it meant silver and magic weapons worked, not that the weapons must be silver and magic. The issues of having essentially taught yourself the game.

[Mutazoia]

BTW who's shlepping around this guy's coffin? While I think that the party traipsing around the country side carrying a coffin like some death-metal funeral procession is rather funny I can also see it imposing a lot of penalties to overland movement (unless they buy a wagon for it but then that limits off road movement) and combat (Surprise round...try not to drop and damage Fred's coffin while you take an arrow to the dangly bits). (They shouldn't have a portable hole or like items at lvl 8) The party will have to move primarily at night, increasing random encounter chances, deal with NPC's at night (not many NPC's willing to talk to total strangers knocking on their doors at midnight), can't cross rivers or streams on their way from point A to point B. If their in the middle of the woods and Fred's hungry the only people to feed on are going to be the other party members. Get them lost in a dessert for week and see how much everybody loves Fred's new vampirism. Hell...get them lost in Alaska during the summer...24 hrs of daylight makes vampire Fred a sad little leech.

[Flickerdart]

Well, it's probably because the CRB says "after the slash is what kind of weapons overcome DR," and therefore I always assumed that it meant silver and magic weapons worked, not that the weapons must be silver and magic. The issues of having essentially taught yourself the game.
That would be 10/silver or magic.

[NeoPhoenix0]

BTW who's shlepping around this guy's coffin? While I think that the party traipsing around the country side carrying a coffin like some death-metal funeral procession is rather funny I can also see it imposing a lot of penalties to overland movement (unless they buy a wagon for it but then that limits off road movement) and combat (Surprise round...try not to drop and damage Fred's coffin while you take an arrow to the dangly bits). (They shouldn't have a portable hole or like items at lvl 8) The party will have to move primarily at night, increasing random encounter chances, deal with NPC's at night (not many NPC's willing to talk to total strangers knocking on their doors at midnight), can't cross rivers or streams on their way from point A to point B. If their in the middle of the woods and Fred's hungry the only people to feed on are going to be the other party members. Get them lost in a dessert for week and see how much everybody loves Fred's new vampirism. Hell...get them lost in Alaska during the summer...24 hrs of daylight makes vampire Fred a sad little leech.

As they are undead and do not need to breathe it is a very good idea to keep the coffin in a bag of holding. This makes it easier and less risky for the vampire to get to his coffin when he dies.

Edit: That isn't to say there aren't some down sides. If the party gets wiped they your coffin is very vulnerable to being destroyed because it is right there in the bag. Of course that means the vampire has a reason to not get destroyed so he can defend his coffin. Kinda makes the party his -10 buffer hp.

[Mutazoia]

As they are undead and do not need to breathe it is a very good idea to keep the coffin in a bag of holding. This makes it easier and less risky for the vampire to get to his coffin when he dies.

Edit: That isn't to say there aren't some down sides. If the party gets wiped they your coffin is very vulnerable to being destroyed because it is right there in the bag. Of course that means the vampire has a reason to not get destroyed so he can defend his coffin. Kinda makes the party his -10 buffer hp.

I'm not sure that a coffin would fit in a bag of holding. Well I know it will fit IN the bag but I'm not sure that the opening of said bag would be large enough to admit a human sized coffin.... But even so..then we can add the risk of the bag getting damaged and the coffin lost...the bag getting stolen and the coffin lost...most of the bag's storage space being used by Fred's coffin so the party has to off load other gear...what happens if the party get's split and Fred's not with the guy carrying his coffin...what happens if Fred's IN the coffin and the bag get's destroyed....

As they say, the devil is in the details. I would definitely be making the fledgling vampire's life miserable...he would definitely find out why there are very few really old powerful vampires in the world.

[Another_Poet]

Killing vampire players

I lol'd.

I wouldn't go trying to de-vamp him. Let him have fun for a bit. But to make challenges, here are some options:

Angels and holy beings now stalk the party seeking to destroy him. If the other PCs are non-evil, they may not want to fight these beings.
What kinds of Ability drain/damage still affect Undead? Those don't go away with Fast Healing
As indicated, the right weapons bypass his DR.
Is the party cleric Good? One morning they get NO SPELLS. In prayer/communion, their deity tells them they cannot ally with unholy beings like this.
All necromancers are the vamp's enemy, and have spells that can mess with him.
All good clergy are his enemy, and have spells that can mess with him.
Dying and waiting to re-form actually sucks. The first time it happens make sure something awesome occurs while he is out of commission (a battle with great loot? A major event?) He'll want to avoid temporary death.
Have an NPC or otherworldly being remind him what Hell is like and that that's where he's going if he dies for keeps.
Remind him that if he dies only True Resurrection will bring him back, and he'll lose all his vamp powers.
Can he trust the other PCs? What if a paladin offers them an obscene amount of money to buy his coffin while he is "dead" and re-forming? Would they sell him out?
Smart enemies who discover he's a vampire will prepare accordingly. Traps with portals to the sun, or the other side of the world where it's daytime. Garlic. Holy water. Appropriate weapons/ammo. Etc.


Most of D&D assumes that the party will suffer predominantly low-grade, easily healed damage. By taking the vampire template, he has cut out that middle ground: the main threats he needs to worry about are major, character-ending threats. That should make him play smarter, and if he doesn't, it won't be long before he's dust anyway.

If none of the above fits your campaign then talk to him OOC about the problem and making potential changes to the template.

[cerin616]

Enforce the fact that he needs to behavior as his evil alignment as well. If he isn't evil, he can't be a vampire.

This can attract the attention of higher level holy orders towards taking action.

[Karoht]

You don't need to kill a vamp. You just need to neutralize the vamp from combat. Easily accomplished.

Command Undead is a 2nd level spell. Commonly available, and highly effective. It's basically Charm Person for undead. Now while this won't give you astonishingly good control of this vampire, it gives you some degree.
For example:
"It would probably be in your best interest to stay out of this combat, these guys look really dangerous."
One (failed) Charisma check later, the vampire is leaving the combat.

Hide from Undead + Halt Undead makes for a pretty decent combo.
Hide from Undead is low level, it functions just like Hide from Animals. Halt Undead functions just like Hold Person, for Undead. 3 targets at a time no less.

Hide from Undead + Halt Undead + a Paladin doing a Smite Evil Coup de Grace is a pretty easy way to ambush a vampire, especially if that vampire is alone. Maybe because you used Command Undead to convince the vampire to leave the combat for his/her own safety.

Undeath Ward is 6th level, good for keeping Undead from approaching you.
Control Undead is 7th level, and functions like Dominate Person for Undead.
Circle of Protection from Evil is 3rd Level, and should be up at all times on virtually anyone who wants to fight this vampire. If not, Protection from Evil will do just fine.
Death Ward is kind of important for fighting anything with negative energy effects, stat drain or level drain, which vampires do have.
Dispel Evil is an excellent buff with a variety of uses.

Disruption on a weapon isn't a bad idea for actually trying to off the vampire, Undead Bane is usually a good choice if you just want to maim the vampire.
Searing Light is 3rd level, has no save, you just have to overcome the Spell Resistance. Holy Smite is 4th level, hurts the vamp and possibly blinds them. Undeath to Death destroys Xd4 Hit Dice worth of Undead, will save negates, no SR.


*note*
In my opinion, it is better to keep the vamp from being able to participate in combat effectively than it is to kill them. Hindering them as much as possible (via removing them from the combat, or by fighting enemies who are prepared to fight vampires and negate as much of their attacks as possible) is a wise tactic.

[Flickerdart]

Enforce the fact that he needs to behavior as his evil alignment as well. If he isn't evil, he can't be a vampire.

This can attract the attention of higher level holy orders towards taking action.
That's...not really how it works. The DMG explains that "always [alignment]" is really more like 90%, so there are plenty of neutral or maybe even good vampires. Even if he was evil, though, he doesn't have to be blatantly evil on a massive scale. Most evil creatures don't provoke holy orders to crusade against them, after all.

[cerin616]

That's...not really how it works. The DMG explains that "always [alignment]" is really more like 90%, so there are plenty of neutral or maybe even good vampires. Even if he was evil, though, he doesn't have to be blatantly evil on a massive scale. Most evil creatures don't provoke holy orders to crusade against them, after all.

im not saying that he has to be blatantly evil on a massive scale. Im saying that, as a vampire, chances are pretty solid he is evil, and so at least once in a while he has to do some evil things. He cant be like
"oh im a vampire, so im gonna go to town, ask some people what they need, and then go kill some bugbears... nbd"
Im saying that he has to have some selfish motivations, some carelessness with life, things that most evil archetypes share.

And from there, eventually, chances are, someone is eventually going to see hi do evil/notice his vampire traits/happen to cast detect evil nearby and maybe, at some point, someone will be like "oh ****, this guy is an undead, i should tell someone" which could cause some higher level sect to send someone out to check it out.

you make it sound like im saying the vampire should be going on bloody rampages until the entire church of pelor gets up in arms and declares war on him.

[Flickerdart]

He cant be like
"oh im a vampire, so im gonna go to town, ask some people what they need, and then go kill some bugbears... nbd"
Im saying that he has to have some selfish motivations, some carelessness with life, things that most evil archetypes share.
What, murdering intelligent creatures and robbing their corpses isn't evil enough for you?

[Keneth]

they use cr instead

Templates don't have LA and don't have any higher ECL by RAW. There are outdated suggestions on how to treat powerful races (i.e. CR=ECL, with some confusing buyoff system), but as it stands by current RAW, playing powerful races only increases the average party level. Either way, allowing your players to acquire powerful templates, then punishing them with a ridiculous system like LA, is a bad way to go about things.

There are plenty of ways to deal with vampires and undead in general, non-mythic one especially have a stupid amount of vulnerabilities for all the good things they get. But if you can't give the party a good challenge anymore, you should probably consider adjusting the template. Something as simple as removing the gaseous form ability (instant death on 0 hp) should be enough to get them in line, or requiring them to sleep during the day (since they don't really have to otherwise) just to make things a bit more inconvenient.

[cerin616]

What, murdering intelligent creatures and robbing their corpses isn't evil enough for you?

Apparently not.

[Segev]

Oh, that's right. PF has totally abandoned any pretense of allowing monster PCs that are on par with non-monster PCs. I'd somehow managed to forget that despite being grotesquely disappointed in having the Races book be one of my few actual cash purchases (and one of the reasons why I haven't shelled out more for PF books).

No. "Raise the level of the party" is idiotic. You're measuring the level of the party because one character is more powerful, but not measuring how much more powerful that character is. It's no different than saying, "Well, the party's effective level is 8 because they have a 15th level character and 3 6th level characters! Obviously, just ramp up the challenges, but reward them all the same!"

*facepalm*

PF has a lot of good design in it. This is an utterly moronic backtrack to pre-2E. Using CR of a monster as base level before classes was good.

[Rosstin]

I agree with the PoV: let the player really enjoy it for a few sessions, like at least 4 or so. Keep track of the player's actions and have some people who are aware of his/her condition specifically hunt him out after that. It won't seem heavy-handed if you don't do it right away. Give it some time and let the player enjoy their character goal for awhile, sometimes its okay for a player to be overpowered for a bit.

[Keneth]

"Raise the level of the party" is idiotic. This is an utterly moronic backtrack to pre-2E. Using CR of a monster as base level before classes was good.

No, it's not. Any system where a player is penalized for a choice you've allowed to them to make is a bad system. Not to mention it prevents the players from fully utilizing their class abilities, or at the very least causes them to lag behind, even though it makes absolutely no sense in the context of any existing world. Adjusting the encounters is the correct approach to the problem.

But then the whole XP and CR system is flawed to begin with. Basing any balance solutions on them is just plain stupid.

[cerin616]

No, it's not. Any system where a player is penalized for a choice you've allowed to them to make is a bad system. Not to mention it prevents the players from fully utilizing their class abilities, or at the very least causes them to lag behind, even though it makes absolutely no sense in the context of any existing world. Adjusting the encounters is the correct approach to the problem.

But then the whole XP and CR system is flawed to begin with. Basing any balance solutions on them is just plain stupid.

I think exactly the opposite, not allowing players to make bad decisions is silly. Although, I would allow my player to take a vampire template warning him that "you get everything from being a vampire, both good and bad"

[CIDE]

Enforce the fact that he needs to behavior as his evil alignment as well. If he isn't evil, he can't be a vampire.

This can attract the attention of higher level holy orders towards taking action.

While the alignment change is RAW for certain templates I've always thought these changes like with a vamp or werewolf to be complete and utter bull****. Not at least without some will save or the blood sucking rules for Pathfinder where you at least have the option to not go full pants-on-head-stupid-evil just because you failed a fort save or two.


Most evil creatures don't provoke holy orders to crusade against them, after all.
Where's the fun in that?

[DrDeth]

"Bob, looks like I made a mistake. Turns out the vampire thing is more powerful than i thought, making it difficult for me to design encounters that are fun & challenging to the entire party. So, I need to take it away or just tone it down a lot, maybe make just a Dhampir. What do you think, how can we achieve this?”

[CIDE]

"Bob, looks like I made a mistake. Turns out the vampire thing is more powerful than i thought, making it difficult for me to design encounters that are fun & challenging to the entire party. So, I need to take it away or just tone it down a lot, maybe make just a Dhampir. What do you think, how can we achieve this?”


This is why I brought up the PF Vampire template before I knew that's what the DM here was already using.

[Segev]

No, it's not. Any system where a player is penalized for a choice you've allowed to them to make is a bad system. Not to mention it prevents the players from fully utilizing their class abilities, or at the very least causes them to lag behind, even though it makes absolutely no sense in the context of any existing world. Adjusting the encounters is the correct approach to the problem.

But then the whole XP and CR system is flawed to begin with. Basing any balance solutions on them is just plain stupid.

Who said anything about penalizing people for making choices? Or do you think it unfair to tell players they can't have 5 levels of wizard and 5 levels of cleric on a 5th level character, so if they want to cast like both and work towards a dual-progression PrC they need to split their levels up somehow? After all, that's penalizing them for playing two casting classes!

No, seriously, playing a race with powers and abilities exceeding the norm should eat into your power elsewhere. It's called game balance. Just because the ECL system in 3.5 did it poorly doesn't mean that the solution is to shrug and suggest that allowing one player to play a Minotaur barbarian while another is playing an elf rogue is fair only if the Minotaur barbarian starts with all the minotaur hit dice, stats, size, etc. on top of being the same level Barbarian as the elf is Rogue.

[TuggyNE]

No, it's not. Any system where a player is penalized for a choice you've allowed to them to make is a bad system. Not to mention it prevents the players from fully utilizing their class abilities, or at the very least causes them to lag behind, even though it makes absolutely no sense in the context of any existing world. Adjusting the encounters is the correct approach to the problem.

But then the whole XP and CR system is flawed to begin with. Basing any balance solutions on them is just plain stupid.

PF's CR adjustment system was flawed, mostly in that it ignored the theoretical framework for LA in favor of just handwaving everything. In other words, it was a step backward. Dropping even that faint vestige of balance is still worse.

And how do you "adjust encounters" when there's effectively 4, 6, or 8 levels between party members?


No, seriously, playing a race with powers and abilities exceeding the norm should eat into your power elsewhere. It's called game balance. Just because the ECL system in 3.5 did it poorly doesn't mean that the solution is to shrug and suggest that allowing one player to play a Minotaur barbarian while another is playing an elf rogue is fair only if the Minotaur barbarian starts with all the minotaur hit dice, stats, size, etc. on top of being the same level Barbarian as the elf is Rogue.

No, it's only fair if the Minotaur can also have Mineral Warrior at the same level too.

[gartius]

Just because the ECL system in 3.5 did it poorly doesn't mean that the solution is to shrug and suggest that allowing one player to play a Minotaur barbarian while another is playing an elf rogue is fair only if the Minotaur barbarian starts with all the minotaur hit dice, stats, size, etc. on top of being the same level Barbarian as the elf is Rogue.

except in pf the minotaur is not the same lvl barbarian as the rogue.

also very simple solution to the problem which can be solved by a lvl 0 spell.
create water.

Each round of immersion in running water inflicts damage on a vampire equal to one-third of its maximum hit points—a vampire reduced to 0 hit points in this manner is destroyed.
you're welcome

[Mutazoia]

No, it's not. Any system where a player is penalized for a choice you've allowed to them to make is a bad system. Not to mention it prevents the players from fully utilizing their class abilities, or at the very least causes them to lag behind, even though it makes absolutely no sense in the context of any existing world. Adjusting the encounters is the correct approach to the problem.

But then the whole XP and CR system is flawed to begin with. Basing any balance solutions on them is just plain stupid.

If you DON'T penalize a player for a bad decisions (or ones made purely for power) then eventually you'll get to the "My character's the son of two Gods, has 25 in all his stats and can't die because his parent's won't let him" stage. I sat in on one (and only one) session where the DM allowed this kind of cheese. The rest of the party was superfluous. You can't simply adjust the encounters. It's not fair to the rest of the players who are not playing the uber god template. The above mentioned DM had to ramp everything up to be a challenge for the one player and the other's couldn't effect anything at all. The best they could do was be pack mules. It's not fair that Fred's effectively lvl 8 now that he's a vampire and the rest of the party is level 3 so they all have to fight groups of lvl 12 monsters to keep Fred from waltzing through everything.

Allowing a player to take a vampire template and enjoy all the benefits but not hitting him with the bad stuff is just bad DM'ing. I would argue that allowing your player to take a vampire template willingly is a bad move but mistakes do happen....it's what you do about the mistakes that count.

[Silus]

So, next session is on Friday, and the vampire issue is mostly in regards to the next few sessions (The Star Spawn will be sorting out the party later on).

Thinking, at the moment, using the following:

Location: "The City of Ghosts", a ruined underground city from almost over 1000 years ago that was forced underground by a cataclysm. Located close to crashed ships from an ancient war carrying cocktails of magic and alchemy that have turned into a highly corrosive, necrotic and entropic mist (henceforth called the "Pink Cloud").

1) Incorporeal Undead with mental and physical ability drains (Allips, Shadows, etc.). Possibly in swarms/large groups. If I can't outright kill the characters (something that I've not done yet, which seems to confound the superiorly experienced players I'm DMing for), then I'll force'em to escape, or at least leave them drained and weakened for the boss fight that's coming.

2) Liberal use of the Pink Cloud environmental hazard that I've been tinkering with. Flat damage (well 1d6-2d12 depending on concentration, 1d6 bleed in large concentrations and restrict fast-healing) with the side effect of either damaging or melting gear (weapons and armor) to the PC. Less of a "punishment" for being unusually powerful and more "You best weigh your options when you're running from the ghosts and wraiths. Do you go the longer, safer route and risk getting caught, or go the shorter route and take the internal damage from the Pink Cloud?"

2.1) The undead that exist in the cloud will be getting buffed. Attacks bypass DR, they can see within the concealment of the Pink Cloud, are unaffected by the Pink Cloud, and any Corporeal get Fast Healing within the thicker clouds.

2.2) Excessively exposed weapons and armor being weilded/worn within the Pink Cloud must make fort saves or 1) take corrosion damage, or 2) become painfully melded to the character. The Cloud melds metals and stone to flesh and the like and tends to rot most organic stuff (Leather and whatnot). Metal, stone and magic items would have a 3/4 chance to meld with a 1/4 chance to corrosion, whereas organic based gear would have the inverse, though this would only kick in after a timer of 1d4+2 rounds of constant heavy exposure. The timer starts at 0%, then goes up by 10% each round of constant heavy exposure, and lowers at a rate of 10% when unexposed to large quantities of the Cloud. Melded armor cannot be removed and melded weapons restrict the use of the hands that the weapons are melded to (A Restoration spell will cure this).

[Segev]

Again, it's not penalizing a character if you make him pay for a more powerful race with levels. No more than it's penalizing "a sorcerer who was trained in the city guard for the first 30 years of his life before he discovered his magical gift" to not allow him to have 4 levels of fighter AND 6 levels of sorcerer when the party is 6th level. Is a 4th level fighter/2nd level sorc a rather weak combination? Sure. So is a Minotaur/2nd level sorcerer (to stick with my example from earlier) when compared to a 6th level elf rogue. But a Minotaur 6th level Sorcerer in a party next to an elven 6th level rogue is definitely stronger than his party-mate, and has an unfair advantage. Elevating the "effective party level" to increase the challenges while leaving the rewards the same and doing nothing to increase the power of the elf rogue only punishes the rogue for not having chosen a more powerful race.

[nedz]

It's issues like this which make me leery of running Vampires or Lycanthropes, also they're a bit clichéd but hey.

Normally I would expect that the party would make curing the character their number 1 priority, but that doesn't always seem to happen.

Maybe your party just needs to be incentivised to do the right thing ?

There are all manner of plot devices you could employ here, but they are all setting dependant so I'll leave this as an exercise.

The traditional approach would be to make the character an NPC now — so this is a thing you could threaten.

Now the standard cure is Death followed by True Resurrection; but there is no reason why you couldn't homebrew some McGuffin which can do this — an NPC even.

[Reinkai]

Personally, I don't really like the idea of crafting encounters specifically to kill or take a certain character out of combat for extended periods of time. The point of D&D is to have fun, and sitting there doing nothing while your friends are rolling dice turn after turn is not fun.

However, if you really want to take him down, I like the suggestion of Create Water. You could create a continuous use create water wondrous item pretty cheaply. Combine it with a character with a good grapple check and you could kill him in a few turns. :)

Edit:


also very simple solution to the problem which can be solved by a lvl 0 spell.
create water.


Each round of immersion in running water inflicts damage on a vampire equal to one-third of its maximum hit points—a vampire reduced to 0 hit points in this manner is destroyed.

you're welcome

Where did you source this from? I went to check here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-water) and don't see that text.

[Andurian]

If you aren't far in and it is definitely creating problems, maybe discuss it with the player and find a way to create a new balanced template.

I am playing with a Vampire Cleric that is Chaotic Neutral. We based it on this set....

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Vampire,_Methuselan_(3.5e_Template)

We arent using Ageing bonuses so no abuse there. There is no template modifier and we are roleplaying as well as we can. This set of rules makes it a lot easier. You can be out in the sun but it hurts and you are worse at fighting. We took out the Create Spawn rules so that couldnt be abused.

We even worked the backstory in and it is working quite well (Seeker of the Misty Isle is her end goal). And she really isnt overpowered. It is helpful to be able to heal using blood points but it isnt fast healing and it can be overcome easily. Extra HP helps but not the end all be all. Lots of stat bonuses but fighting in the sun or shade is even or worse with the stat modifiers as if you were normal.

Maybe try talking to the player to use a different homebrew template. Unless they took the template for the crazy bonuses. If they did it for Roleplaying purposes then it shouldnt be a big issue. Also, this prevents the inevitable large discrepancy in level since Vampires have a large LA.

_________________________

For silly fun, the players enter a city/town/dungeon that contains a culture that ridiculously love garlic. Everyone has garlic breath and it isn't strange for people to just kinda have it on them.

Lets see a vampire deal with that :P

[CIDE]

So, next session is on Friday, and the vampire issue is mostly in regards to the next few sessions (The Star Spawn will be sorting out the party later on).

Thinking, at the moment, using the following:

Location: "The City of Ghosts", a ruined underground city from almost over 1000 years ago that was forced underground by a cataclysm. Located close to crashed ships from an ancient war carrying cocktails of magic and alchemy that have turned into a highly corrosive, necrotic and entropic mist (henceforth called the "Pink Cloud").

1) Incorporeal Undead with mental and physical ability drains (Allips, Shadows, etc.). Possibly in swarms/large groups. If I can't outright kill the characters (something that I've not done yet, which seems to confound the superiorly experienced players I'm DMing for), then I'll force'em to escape, or at least leave them drained and weakened for the boss fight that's coming.

2) Liberal use of the Pink Cloud environmental hazard that I've been tinkering with. Flat damage (well 1d6-2d12 depending on concentration, 1d6 bleed in large concentrations and restrict fast-healing) with the side effect of either damaging or melting gear (weapons and armor) to the PC. Less of a "punishment" for being unusually powerful and more "You best weigh your options when you're running from the ghosts and wraiths. Do you go the longer, safer route and risk getting caught, or go the shorter route and take the internal damage from the Pink Cloud?"

2.1) The undead that exist in the cloud will be getting buffed. Attacks bypass DR, they can see within the concealment of the Pink Cloud, are unaffected by the Pink Cloud, and any Corporeal get Fast Healing within the thicker clouds.

2.2) Excessively exposed weapons and armor being weilded/worn within the Pink Cloud must make fort saves or 1) take corrosion damage, or 2) become painfully melded to the character. The Cloud melds metals and stone to flesh and the like and tends to rot most organic stuff (Leather and whatnot). Metal, stone and magic items would have a 3/4 chance to meld with a 1/4 chance to corrosion, whereas organic based gear would have the inverse, though this would only kick in after a timer of 1d4+2 rounds of constant heavy exposure. The timer starts at 0%, then goes up by 10% each round of constant heavy exposure, and lowers at a rate of 10% when unexposed to large quantities of the Cloud. Melded armor cannot be removed and melded weapons restrict the use of the hands that the weapons are melded to (A Restoration spell will cure this).


I hope your players don't frequent this board.

[Silus]

I hope your players don't frequent this board.

Well one does, but I briefed him via Skype, and I kinda doubt the others much care one way or another.

[gartius]

Where did you source this from?

from the vampire template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire) itself, under weaknessess

so simple plan needed here, requiring two things. a grappler, any kind. Normally when you grapple the vampire will simply look delighted and start draining away the grappler, instead he has immobilised himself where upon the second part comes to the foreground whereupon you cast create water over the two grapplers.

game, set, and match