Is the Snarl unsnarling itself? (And is the Dark One its champion?)

[Fearabbit]

Sorry if this topic has been brought up before. If so, I'd be glad if you could show me those threads.

So, basically: There's a world inside the rifts. A world is made of threads of reality woven in a highly ordered way, which is why the Snarl couldn't grasp the concept.
If we take the concept of reality threads further, then rifts are nothing but an unraveling of the fabric. The Gods didn't do that, so it stands to reason that the Snarl is doing it. But why? And how?

The answer to "why" could be that it still wants to escape. As to how... maybe the Snarl has studied the pattern around it, and is now recreating it because that is the only way to break free?
Think about it, they were able to imprison a highly unstructured being by using a highly structured prison. What if the Snarl became more structured? Could its prison hold it then? Or could the Snarl start finding the right threads to pull in order to enlargen itself, while staying in a structured manner and dissolving the prison around it?
So the Snarl structures itself, creating a world in the process because that is the only structure it KNOWS, as it's the prison it sees around itself. Once the Snarl is unsnarled, it is able to start unraveling the prison. But then, the gates were created and stopped the process.

What this all means, I don't know. Basically I just want to know if we're on the same page here. Am I overseeing something? What else could it mean that there's an ordered structure where there should be a snarl?

And since I read Start of Darkness two days ago, I can't help but wonder if the Dark One is related to the Snarl in some way.
They have very similar goals - the Dark One wants to threaten the Gods and change the ruleset the current world is built on, while the Snarl wants to kill the Gods, and possibly, rule its own world (since it seems to be creating one already). It's all about overthrowing the status quo.

Now it could be that for some reason, a goblin with purple complexion who just happens to be completely overpowered appears and later transcends to godhood. But I don't know, I'm not buying it. First I had the idea that maybe some wizard tricked the goblins into following him and turning him into a martyr god. And well, that idea is still not off the table. But the similarities in their goals and their color palette make me think that maybe, the Snarl created a champion and sent him through one of the rifts.

The reasons for that? There could be many. Basically, he's a spy who knows what the gods are up to, and currently he's using that knowledge to inform his High Priest how the gates can be disabled in a safe manner.

You know, I think that maybe a big explosion that rips through the threads of reality might not be what the Snarl wants. If my theory is anywhere near correct, there's a direct correlation between the appearance of a world inside the rifts and the fact that the rifts appeared at all - the unraveling of the threads and using them for its own purpose. A gate that completely shatters the fabric when it explodes, causing the rifts to grow much faster than before, means that the world is unraveling without the Snarl getting those threads, a loss for both sides.

In any case, that would mean that Redcloak is being tricked into thinking he's helping the goblin cause, when it's really the undoing of the world he's preparing.

As I said, if there are already threads about these theories, it would be great if you could send me in the right direction. Otherwise, maybe we will find out some interesting connections together. :)

[pendell]

Hello, Fearabbit. I don't know if this is the first thread you've started, but welcome to the world of crazy speculation! :smallbiggrin:

I think you are half-correct. Yes, the Snarl IS changing, reason unknown. And it seems to have started changing fairly recently, as it ate Soon's wife in the time of the Order of the Scribble. Why? Unrevealed at this time.

I don't see that the Dark One is its champion save unwittingly. I think the Dark One is part of the world's current reality and knows little more than he already told Redcloak. It ate the gods, it destroyed the previous world, the gates which lock it up can be plane-shifted to other locations.

It doesn't look to me as if either the Dark One OR Redcloak have yet even noticed the conditions inside the rift, or taken into account that things may change within. The gods of OOTS seem to have unlimited scrying unblockable by mortal means but it only seems to work within the reality of OOTSworld, not inside an entirely different world such as exists in the rift.

ETA: Whatever the Dark One knows it is entirely possible he is with-holding information from Redcloak. After all, if Redcloak uses limited information to control Xykon, why should we be surprised if the Dark One manipulates Redcloak in the same way? And Redcloak almost seems to beg to be manipulated, deliberately closing his mind and eyes to anything save what his god reveals to him. It's so easy to deceive the willfully clueless.

Ironically, he and Miko have much in common in that they are both hyper-lawful blind zealots unable to think outside the box -- and in Redcloak's case, if you've read SOD, he can be quite vicious to those who challenge his preconceptions.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Zerter]

Not really feeling like you make a strong case on the second point. Mostly because your main argument, that they both want to upset the status quo, seems weak. I learned in debate club that if you have to debate for a side you don't always have to defend the status quo and that if you are against a side you always attack the status quo. I say this to make this point: wanting to kick the status quo in the ass is very common and in no way signals that you are in alliance (though one side wanting to defend it and the other wanting to kill it would signal you are not).

[Fearabbit]

@Zerter: No, I haven't made a strong case for the Dark One as the champion of the Snarl. I just wanted to get it out there because he seems kinda fishy to me currently (now that I learned a bit about him in SoD).
But "they're against the status quo" wasn't my main argument. The fact that the Dark One is a uniquely powerful goblin with purple skin who just came out of nowhere to unite the goblin tribes is much more important - something like that doesn't just happen for no reason. I'd say that's deliberate and there are still things we don't know about the Dark One - and an alliance with the Snarl seems most likely to me. (Or, you know, a purple-haired wizard who turned into a goblin in order to get their trust, get them to worship him and turn him into a god. Also not impossible...)

@pendell: Thanks for the welcome! :D Yeah I just re-read the whole comic (still working at it to be precise) and sometimes you just can't keep yourself from speculating. I'm already resisting the urge to google monsters that fit the MitD.

Anyway, I think the gates have changed the nature of the rifts. Before, they were more or less stable, and they killed people who came close to them. While they were gated, they did nothing. And after they exploded, they rapidly grew. It must've taken Soon et al some time to come up with a solution for the rifts, and yet the one in Azure City was small enough to fit inside a small sapphire.
When the gate exploded, it took the rift less than a year to grow exponentially huge.

Which is what makes me think back to the fabric metaphor. Imagine the Snarl steadily pulling on a string to weave it into its own structure. Then imagine a patch stitched over that spot, which keeps the Snarl from pulling. Now imagine tearing away that patch by sheer force.
There's a chance that the fabric will be so messed up that the Snarl can't even unravel it anymore, because the thread it was holding was ripped apart. Meanwhile the other threads are unraveling in all kinds of directions.

What I'm wondering is, which danger did Dorukan foresee that made him put a self-destruct button on his gate? Was it the danger of someone abusing the Snarl's power? No. As we know now, the Snarl can't be controlled and it can't be moved. It's basically useless as a weapon unless you use it in the way Redcloak intends to use it, and how could Dorukan have known about that possibility - and yet failed to realize the threat when Redcloak was at his doorstep?
I think he was afraid someone might want to help the Snarl, plain and simple. And if destroying the gate permanently severs the connection between the Snarl and their world, then it is in fact a good idea. to do so. If you can patch up your world again afterwards.

[David Argall]

To treat the idea with more seriousness than it probably deserves...
The Dark One is not unique. The elves also developed gods, number and such unknown, but the emergence of the Dark One requires no expansion of the rules we already have. Having the Snarl cause the Dark One in some way requires that the Snarl can enter the world in some way we know nothing about, and that it wants to. All we really have is a record of violence, usually massive, and no sign of any real plan at all. What is strange is that the violence seems to have lessened to nil? in what should be a trivial amount of time. There are a few dozen possible explanation that don't require us to give the Snarl extra powers or interests. Accordingly we put these more speculative ideas on the back burner until we get some new information [which may appear in a few pages].

[Fearabbit]

To treat the idea with more seriousness than it probably deserves...
Hey, both ideas are speculation, but they are not less realistic than any other speculation proposed here. Just look at the "What is the MitD" thread, they've speculated oh-so-seriously over there and still their best three guesses include a monster with a vertical set of eyes and one with two heads. :smallbiggrin:
So if you don't like speculation, fine by me, but many here do.


The Dark One is not unique.
Yes he is. His ascension to godhood isn't unique and I never said that. The fact that he's purple and epic level when he was alive makes him unique.
And that's the main thing I want to point out. There's got to be a story here.


Having the Snarl cause the Dark One in some way requires that the Snarl can enter the world in some way we know nothing about, and that it wants to.
Well, we have instances where the Snarl took something from the world. And the Snarl apparently created a world itself, and at least one rift is close enough to the surface of the planet that a creature could have gotten through.

The Snarl as we know it lacked motivation, but the Snarl as we know it also was pure chaos, while creating a world is described as forming order out of that chaos, which would suggest that the Snarl became more ordered and as such might have developed a motivation.
Basically I think that calling it a Snarl at this point has ceased to be reasonable. It has created a world or it became a world, that implies motivation itself. The violence isn't observed anymore, that implies a change in the nature of the Snarl and I think it's a safe bet that our current idea about the Snarl is not accurate anymore.