Speak to me of Incantatrix.

[killem2]

I am looking over this class, just trying to understand where exactly it becomes broken.

I say broken,because when I was reading over the handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223438), there was quite a small debate on the purpose of such a book, and how easy it is to break this class.

I'm reading over the thread above, and from the gist I understand that you can use spell craft check to use metamagic, but when I read the class over and over, the only mention of such a thing is (that being a reference to metamagic):

Instant Metamagic (Su): Once per day, the 7th-level incantatrix can use a single metamagic effect of any metamagic feat she knows on a spell without preparing it beforehand (if a wizard) or increasing its casting time (if a sorcerer or bard). The wizard's prepared spell works as if prepared with the metamagic feat except it uses the same spell slot. A sorcerer or bard's spell is cast without the adjustment to the casting time but works as if cast with the metamagic feat. A 9th-level incantatrix can use this power twice per day.

Improved Metamagic (Su): At 8th level, the incantatrix has mastered metamagic to such an extent that whenever she uses a metamagic feat, the feat's level increase upon a spell is reduced by one (this can't reduce an increase to less than one level, or less than zero levels if the increase is already +0). For example, an incantatrix wizard could prepare a quickened fireball as a 6th-level spell instead of a 7th-level spell.

While this is true, I'm not seeing the benefits of this being only once per day.

Where exactly are people getting the idea that this person can use a spell craft check for well anything. I thought I had read about this once, but according the only source I could find it in Magic of Faerun.

I feel dense about this, and usually I'm very good at scouting info and putting 2 + 2 together, but I'm falling flat on my face with this one guys and gals.

:smallredface:

[Rebel7284]

You're looking at the wrong Incanatatrix. Check the 3.5 edition one. :)

[killem2]

You're looking at the wrong Incanatatrix. Check the 3.5 edition one. :)

Oh jesus.

:smallredface::smallredface::smallsigh:

Thank ya :D

[Norin]

Players guide to faerun p.61.

[Flickerdart]

Magic of Faerun is a 3.0 book. The 3.5 Incantatrix appears in Player's Guide to Faerun.

[killem2]

Thanks everyone, found it, in your personal opinion, which can offer a wider variety of effects, this or straight cleric with DMM tricks?

[Glimbur]

I like the sorc/wiz spell list better than the cleric + domains spell list. At sufficiently high optimization they start to blend together though.

Also, skill checks are not terribly hard to get very high, so it's plausible that the Incantatrix has more hax-metamagic than a DMM cleric. Nighsticks are a thing, though, so in both cases they have a lot of metamagic. Incantatrix can help other people's spells, which is a nice thing to have.

[Palanan]

Like Killem, I've seen the Incantatrix bandied about quite a lot, and never really knew much about it. About what character level does it start to get out of hand? Is it trouble from the get-go, or does it take a while to get going?

.

[Segev]

Be warned on Nightsticks that a feasible reading of the RAW is that they increase your maximum number of Turn/Rebuke attempts while you hold them, not that they each contain 4 Turn/Rebukes.

Thus, your best cheese with them involves multiple arms each holding one, because it doesn't matter if you trade them out for "fresh" ones, the check is how many Turn/Rebukes you've used that day vs. how many you're allowed.

So having two Nightsticks - one in each hand - gives you +8 turn/rebukes. If you use your normal allotment+8, then put them down, you've used 8 more than you're allowed. If you pick up two totally new ones, you've used exactly the number you're allowed. You still can't use more. You'd need to be able to hold THREE of them to get +12 over your normal allotment, which would get you 4 more that you could still use.

So in that regard, Incantatrix can possibly do more.

[eggynack]

Like Killem, I've seen the Incantatrix bandied about quite a lot, and never really knew much about it. About what character level does it start to get out of hand? Is it trouble from the get-go, or does it take a while to get going?
By my reckoning, it starts really blowing up when you hit level three, and get metamagic effect. That ability is just ridiculous. You enter incantarix at six, so I've gotta figure that you get explosively powerful at level eight. I mean, there's gotta be some great stuff you can do with the ability to persist 4th level spells.

Edit: Ooh, greater mirror image is a 4th level spell. Persisted greater mirror image is a ridiculous can of beans. The wizard list is pretty fantastic, and persisting it makes it the craziest of buns.

[Flickerdart]

Be warned on Nightsticks that a feasible reading of the RAW is that they increase your maximum number of Turn/Rebuke attempts while you hold them, not that they each contain 4 Turn/Rebukes.
Do nightsticks have handedness? Is there any reason you can't hold multiples in one hand?

[RFLS]

RAW, Nightsticks can stack as much as you want. This is a case where, often, common sense intervenes in such a heavy-handed manner as to prevent the reading of the RAW at hand. While I absolutely agree that Nightsticks should be houseruled to be limited in how much they can stack, well...I think it's a houserule.

[Rebel7284]

Incantatrix is way better than a normal DMM persist Cleric. DMM persist cleric can't persist other player's buffs OR UMD something from a scroll and then persist it.

However, once you have Cleric with Initiate of Mystra entering Dweomerkeeper, the answer is less clear.

[Segev]

Night sticks are rods. Rods are active if held in hand, much like magic weapons. Unless you're arguing that you can hold three longswords in one hand in order to get the tags from each of them, I don't think you can argue that you can hold more than one Rod in one hand.

[RFLS]

Night sticks are rods. Rods are active if held in hand, much like magic weapons. Unless you're arguing that you can hold three longswords in one hand in order to get the tags from each of them, I don't think you can argue that you can hold more than one Rod in one hand.

Right, but you spend the attempts while you're holding them, and then pick up a different one. Arguing otherwise leads to a parallel line of reasoning that concludes, should a cleric use all of his normal turn attempts in a day, and then take Cha damage, the undead he used his turn attempts on are un-turned (or, even more ridiculous: un-destroyed).

Again, it's that's the RAW. I am in complete support of house-ruling them in some way, shape, or form to prevent abuse.

[Segev]

Right, but you spend the attempts while you're holding them, and then pick up a different one. Arguing otherwise leads to a parallel line of reasoning that concludes, should a cleric use all of his normal turn attempts in a day, and then take Cha damage, the undead he used his turn attempts on are un-turned (or, even more ridiculous: un-destroyed).

Again, it's that's the RAW. I am in complete support of house-ruling them in some way, shape, or form to prevent abuse.

I...don't follow that logic.

The fact that you HAVE used more than you HAVE doesn't change that you HAVE USED them. It just means you don't have any available TO use. They're not retroactively un-used.

A cleric whose Charisma drops after using all his Turn/Rebukes still used that many, and they all were valid when he used them. But he can't use any more, even if his Charisma goes back up.

In fact, to argue that picking up a "fresh" Nightstick allows you to use more Turn/Rebuke attempts is to argue that, after the cleric took Cha damage and then had it Restored, the "new" Cha he regained hasn't had its uses of Turn/Rebuke tapped yet, so he has a few more.

Which means Ego Whip/Restoration would allow for cycling more Turn/Rebukes without needing to touch Nightsticks.


...I hope my logic chain at least makes sense, even if you disagree with it. If not, I'll try to write some examples to illustrate later.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You can only use one divine feat at a time. So if you want to stack a lot of meta magic on one spell, incantatrix is the way. Examples include ocular+chain+persist for buffs, or ocular+twinmaxempowersplit for blasting.

Also, IME the wizard persistent buff list is better whatever you're doing. Melee? Draconic polymorph, wraithstrike, bite of the x. Defense? Invisibility, greater mirror image, greater blink. Utility? Swift fly, greater blink, draconic polymorph. Even group buffing can be better with the above feats + spell guard of silvery moon.

[RFLS]

I...don't follow that logic.

The fact that you HAVE used more than you HAVE doesn't change that you HAVE USED them. It just means you don't have any available TO use. They're not retroactively un-used.

A cleric whose Charisma drops after using all his Turn/Rebukes still used that many, and they all were valid when he used them. But he can't use any more, even if his Charisma goes back up.

In fact, to argue that picking up a "fresh" Nightstick allows you to use more Turn/Rebuke attempts is to argue that, after the cleric took Cha damage and then had it Restored, the "new" Cha he regained hasn't had its uses of Turn/Rebuke tapped yet, so he has a few more.

Which means Ego Whip/Restoration would allow for cycling more Turn/Rebukes without needing to touch Nightsticks.


...I hope my logic chain at least makes sense, even if you disagree with it. If not, I'll try to write some examples to illustrate later.

Hrm....I do see your logic, actually. A cleric gets (3+Cha)+Nightsticks worth of turning per day, where Nightsticks is the number of sticks he can hold multiplied by 4, and dropping old nightsticks/picking up new ones lowers and then raises your turning pool to where it was at, but the turning attempts granted by the "fresh" Nightsticks occupies the same indices in the pool as the previous Nightstick turning attempts.

I may have to revisit my position on this.

[Segev]

Okay, glad my logic made sense. And thanks for much more clearly stating what I was trying to say.

I had come to this conclusion after a fair bit of thought on the subject, and was mildly disappointed by it (as it does limit optimization options), though it IS way more balanced (and makes it oddly optimal to have a Giralon's Blessing or few available).

But I came to it after contemplating what happens when you pass Nightsticks around a party. Turns out: you can get a big more bang for your buck by doing so than under the "they hold 4 turns/day" (incorrect) interpretation, but that it does limit your individual ability to just buy more turns.

So it still has its exploits; they're just different and a little more...well, honestly, they are something that I think feels MORE realistic than just treating them like daily charged items. More visceral, more magical. It's deepening your own well of divine energy, rather than serving as an external battery.

[Tokuhara]

I'm going to be running a Human (considering a variant of human, but Skill Points vs. a meh SLA and a meh skill bonus and a cool subtype that idk what use it is to a wizard) Conjurer/Master Conjurer/Incantrix/Halruaan Elder in my current game and I foresee a lot of "Wow! Wizard is so OP" entirely because of 3.5 Incantrix.

And for those not in the know, he's a FF Black Mage (shaded face and all). I would've considered a Red Mage or a Blue Mage (my two actual favorites), but the former is a wimptastic gish and the other would be nigh impossible to implement in 3.5's rules (learning Monster special abilities and SLAs? So complex...), so Black Mage (my #3 favorite and my standard for Final Fantasy Tactics [insert # and subtitle here] for my hero PC) became the goal. The combination of Halruaan Elder and Incantrix fits so nicely it's kind of scary

[eggynack]

I foresee a lot of "Wow! Wizard is so OP" entirely because of 3.5 Incantrix.

You may also see a lot of "Wow! Wizard is so OP," because wizards are incredibly overpowered, even without incantarix. If the wizard list weren't utterly ridiculous, applying tons of metamagic to it wouldn't be nearly as good as it is. I mean, clerics basically get native access to the whole metamagic effect thing, and they seem a bit less powerful than a regular wizard, and significantly less powerful than an incantarix. So, y'know, if someone says that your character is insanely overpowered, they probably have a point.

[RFLS]

Okay, glad my logic made sense. And thanks for much more clearly stating what I was trying to say.

I had come to this conclusion after a fair bit of thought on the subject, and was mildly disappointed by it (as it does limit optimization options), though it IS way more balanced (and makes it oddly optimal to have a Giralon's Blessing or few available).

But I came to it after contemplating what happens when you pass Nightsticks around a party. Turns out: you can get a big more bang for your buck by doing so than under the "they hold 4 turns/day" (incorrect) interpretation, but that it does limit your individual ability to just buy more turns.

So it still has its exploits; they're just different and a little more...well, honestly, they are something that I think feels MORE realistic than just treating them like daily charged items. More visceral, more magical. It's deepening your own well of divine energy, rather than serving as an external battery.

Hrm...reading the Nightstick description, it says you merely have to possess the Nightstick; it doesn't specify "hold" or "wield." I think I'm going to stick with my original interpretation of RAW, as much as I like your explanation from a fluff and balance standpoint.

[Tokuhara]

You may also see a lot of "Wow! Wizard is so OP," because wizards are incredibly overpowered, even without incantarix. If the wizard list weren't utterly ridiculous, applying tons of metamagic to it wouldn't be nearly as good as it is. I mean, clerics basically get native access to the whole metamagic effect thing, and they seem a bit less powerful than a regular wizard, and significantly less powerful than an incantarix. So, y'know, if someone says that your character is insanely overpowered, they probably have a point.

Well Eggy, the big issue is that for me, low level (1-~6) is a struggle on a purely survival sense. So I supplement this by always taking Improved Initiative (make the bad guys fall down first is always great) and the Hummingbird familiar from Dragon Magazine (another +4 Initiative), meaning that a majority of the time, with a decent Dexterity modifier, I go first.

[eggynack]

Well Eggy, the big issue is that for me, low level (1-~6) is a struggle on a purely survival sense. So I supplement this by always taking Improved Initiative (make the bad guys fall down first is always great) and the Hummingbird familiar from Dragon Magazine (another +4 Initiative), meaning that a majority of the time, with a decent Dexterity modifier, I go first.
Those things are rather nice, though I'd usually rather take something more caster specific over improved initiative. Anyways, I'm not sure what the exact point is here. Wizards are pretty good at low levels as well. Like, less good, but they still probably beat out melee guys within that 1-6 range. I'd say around level three, though anywhere from 2-5 could be right.

[Segev]

Hrm...reading the Nightstick description, it says you merely have to possess the Nightstick; it doesn't specify "hold" or "wield." I think I'm going to stick with my original interpretation of RAW, as much as I like your explanation from a fluff and balance standpoint.

Given that they're Rods, I would expect that their use requires the same as any other Rod. "Possess" does not override "held in hand" as a requirement, because it does not specify a contradictory state from being "held in hand." Rods have a specific equipment slot they take up, or they'd be priced as slotless items. That slot happens to be "in the hand" the same as weapons.

In this case, "possess" is just easy linguistic jargon; it doesn't actually change anything. Though I admit to being amused by the mental image of a suit of banded mail made out of Nightsticks in order to fulfill "possession" requirement to the letter with as many as possible simultaneously. Remember, even by "possess" as the only requirement, it doesn't invalidate the way they're "counted" for extra turn attempts. You still need all of them on you at once.

[RFLS]

Given that they're Rods, I would expect that their use requires the same as any other Rod. "Possess" does not override "held in hand" as a requirement, because it does not specify a contradictory state from being "held in hand." Rods have a specific equipment slot they take up, or they'd be priced as slotless items. That slot happens to be "in the hand" the same as weapons.

In this case, "possess" is just easy linguistic jargon; it doesn't actually change anything. Though I admit to being amused by the mental image of a suit of banded mail made out of Nightsticks in order to fulfill "possession" requirement to the letter with as many as possible simultaneously. Remember, even by "possess" as the only requirement, it doesn't invalidate the way they're "counted" for extra turn attempts. You still need all of them on you at once.

I do agree with that last bit; you must have all of them at once. However, absent any interpretation from the writer of the item, I have to interpret "possess" in its most common usage.

For the pricing...I'm not aware of any pricing published for extra turning attempts. Is there such a thing? That would indeed support your point.

[killem2]

Ok, thanks for the help.

I am currently in the making of a Dark Beguiler Wizard.

I've always been a big sucker for focused specialist type wizards, also, I want this wizard to be a full on team player. He's going to do whatever he can to help the team. Even if that means I stay in the back, hiding from plain sight.

(:smallbiggrin::smallsigh::smallbiggrin:)


Would you go FS, or stay completely general? Master specialist has a free skill focus don't ya know. :smallwink:

[Rebel7284]

Ok, thanks for the help.

I am currently in the making of a Dark Beguiler Wizard.

I've always been a big sucker for focused specialist type wizards, also, I want this wizard to be a full on team player. He's going to do whatever he can to help the team. Even if that means I stay in the back, hiding from plain sight.

(:smallbiggrin::smallsigh::smallbiggrin:)


Would you go FS, or stay completely general? Master specialist has a free skill focus don't ya know. :smallwink:

Depends on your play style and if you are indeed going incantatrix after.

Assuming you are taking it:
- Generalist: can ban evocation and still have access to ALL the schools due to shadow evocation. This is nice, but unless you have absolutely no access to other casters or UMD, probably ultimately overkill.

- Specialist: Conjurer can take Abrupt Jaunt for GREAT utility while banning 3 schools (evocation, enchantment, and necromancy or illusion are the typical victims) this is what I would do.
Diviner is an option, but I don't feel there are enough good divination spells at EACH level and you can't take abrupt jaunt...

- Focused Specialist: You are banning 4 schools. While you are still super powerful and have amazing endurance, your flexibility suffers.

[Radar]

Incantatrix is way better than a normal DMM persist Cleric. DMM persist cleric can't persist other player's buffs OR UMD something from a scroll and then persist it.
Incantatrixs' ability is much more versatile then simple persisting of buffs. For example take a look at Sculpt Spell and ponder on the fact, that you can apply it to any spell - even those cast by your enemy. It's a magic can opener! Enemies escaped your Solid Fog? Just change it's location. Possibilities are endless.

If you went the cheesy Fell Drain Locate City way, you can change any area defence into a deathtrap using the very same combo.

Aside from that, the capstone ability is simply broken and there is not much else to be said about it.

[Arc_knight25]

Your Wizard/Beguiler would be great with Ulimate Magus. Just sayin'.

Give it a looksie there Killem2

[Flickerdart]

Your Wizard/Beguiler would be great with Ulimate Magus. Just sayin'.

Give it a looksie there Killem2
No, no, not a beguiler, a beguiler.

[killem2]

Your Wizard/Beguiler would be great with Ulimate Magus. Just sayin'.

Give it a looksie there Killem2

I am the little critter from shining south not the class :P

[killem2]

I'm still intrigued by this class, but I have to ask: How are you making these spellcraft checks?

Even with some lowering of metamagic effects by 1 or 2, your higher level spells, are going to be REALLY hard to to make a check on aren't they?

How are you guys pulling off twinned versions or persisted versions of level 6-9 spells?

This is something I must be misunderstanding about the class as a whole. :smallconfused:

[RFLS]

Let's see...At level 8, you've got, say Int (+6), Skill Ranks (+11), Masterwork Item (+2), Competence Item (+5), Skill Focus (+3), Synergy with K (Arcana) (+2) for a total of +29.

[eggynack]

I'm still intrigued by this class, but I have to ask: How are you making these spellcraft checks?

Even with some lowering of metamagic effects by 1 or 2, your higher level spells, are going to be REALLY hard to to make a check on aren't they?

How are you guys pulling off twinned versions or persisted versions of level 6-9 spells?

This is something I must be misunderstanding about the class as a whole. :smallconfused:
Y'know, items, feats, spells, that kinda stuff. Guidance of the avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) can help quite a bit as well. I guess I can run the numbers on a 17th level guy trying to persist a 9th, cause that's when you'd do that. First, let's set out the goal and basics. Our spellcraft, just from skill points is at 20, and our goal, which is a persisted 9th, is 63. Let's subtract ten from that number at the outset, because we can take ten, so we will. Now the goal is 53, which means there are 33 points to go. Now, let's add on intelligence. Start with 18, +4 from stat bumps, +6 from a headband, and +5 inherent, and you end up with a score of 33 for a modifier of +11.

Now there are only 22 points left. If I want, I can just go skill focus plus some item of guidance of the avatar, but there are other methods out there. Another quick way to pick up points is a custom competence item of spellcraft. I don't know the limit on that, but I'm pretty sure that it can hit high numbers. I forgot the synergy bonus from knowledge (arcana), so that means that the gap is down to 20 points, there's a +3 to intelligence from being venerable, so that's good for two points, and there's always the oft maligned item familiar if you're feeling frisky. Other folks probably have even more methods to get high spellcraft, and do so rather easily, so the long and short of it is that skill checks aren't that hard to boost, and these numbers are closer than they look.

[RFLS]

At level 17, it'd be Ranks (+20), Int Mod (+11), Synergy (+2), Masterwork Item (+2), Competence Item (+15), Skill Focus (+3) for a +53 to Spellcraft. Costs you maxed ranks in Spellcraft, 5 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), 58,550 GP for the items, and a feat. All of that is easily within reach of a 17th level character.

[killem2]

Ok :) So, should I bother snagging persist spell at first possible chance or just hold off for later, if I am a transmuter or conjurer?

[Incanur]

Skills checks to persist spells become easy as long as you have access to at least one of the following: guidance of the avatar, Item Familiar, or custom competence items following the rules in the DMG. Without those, there's still divine insight from a cleric buddy via rings of spell storing or imbue with spell ability. That's kind of a pain, though. The build beguiler 5/unseen seer 1/incantatrix 3/unseen seer 2 gets divine insight at level 10 for a simple +36 or so check. Add in a few more bonuses (heroism, etc) and you can take 10 to persist a 4th-level spell.

[Urpriest]

Ok :) So, should I bother snagging persist spell at first possible chance or just hold off for later, if I am a transmuter or conjurer?

Transmuter, definitely get Persist as soon as you can afford it Spellcraftwise. Conjurer, it's still nice, but also think about Twin and Quicken.

[killem2]

This is excellent info, thanks.

Because I really could not care less if I banned four schools, when I role play a wizard, something about me just feels like a wizard is born to be a specialist or as much as he can be.

Are there really nice persistable damage dealing transmutation spells, or if I am going to go down the route of dealing damage (on top of any support I want to give) would it be better to become a an abjurer over transmuter, or does a transmuter have its fair share of damage dealing, should this little Beguiler (rat creature) need to lay some smack down.

[Chronos]

On Nightsticks, is there even any evidence that they stack at all? The Extra Turning feat explicitly stacks, but Nightsticks do not work by granting you that feat. And if "increase number of turning attempts" is considered a bonus, then two nightsticks would be two untyped bonuses from the same source, which (unless otherwise specified) don't stack.

[killem2]

On Nightsticks, is there even any evidence that they stack at all? The Extra Turning feat explicitly stacks, but Nightsticks do not work by granting you that feat. And if "increase number of turning attempts" is considered a bonus, then two nightsticks would be two untyped bonuses from the same source, which (unless otherwise specified) don't stack.

That's where it gets fishy for most. Because what is stopping someone from having a bandolier of nightsticks lol.


In other news, which might cause some of you to either go crazy or be jealous, but my dm after a simple question, will let me use the same cooperative metamagic, on psionic powers with the following formula:

DC 18 + [3 x [Metamagic Slot Increase + total power points spent] ]

Pretty cool :)