How can I increase the spot DC to notice an invisible zombie?

[OldTrees1]

Like the title says, without awakening the mindless zombie, how can I increase the spot DC to pinpoint its location while it is invisible?

Thank you in advance.

[subject42]

Is it mobile, or standing still?

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, it can take 20 to hide itself without ranks in the skill. That adds 20 +- dex to it.

[Segev]

I think a little more context on how this zombie is to be used might help us come up with ideas that will be applicable to your particular circumstance.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Well a mindless zombie probably isn't trying to hide so it should be a flat DC of 20 to become aware of its presence but pin pointing it would of course be much higher. If given a command to make noise that would also make things significantly easier.

So are you trying to hide something on an invisible zombie but not hide it so well you can actually find it.

[OldTrees1]

Is it mobile, or standing still?

It will need to move once in awhile but most of the time it will be standing still
DC 40/60 to pinpoint location of an invisible mobile/unmoving nonliving creature within 30ft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)


Well, it can take 20 to hide itself without ranks in the skill. That adds 20 +- dex to it.

Can mindless creatures make skill checks?

@Segev & Lord Vukodlak
I am trying to hide the zombie without preventing it from being a threat. I need it to remain mindless since one of the PCs had mindsight.

[Segev]

Put it in a narrow corridor that looks straight, but has alcoves and linking passages hidden behind illusory walls. Now, it's invisible, and it's hiding behind illusory walls when it's not moving from one side of the hall to the other to establish another ambush.

[ericgrau]

It's already DC 40 (60 if still), that's not enough? I'd worry more about the DC 20 listen to pinpoint it. I'd get silence on him somehow. The DC 40 comes from visual clues in the ground and so on. You could create an illusion of ground barely above the ground and nobody would get a save until stepping on the affected area or something drew their attention to make them look at the ground, like the zombie attacking. There's no RAW way to handle this but you could argue for DC 50-60, since the DC 60 comes from the zombie giving little or no environmental clues when still. Though DC 30-40 would pick up his presence (but not pinpoint) which could then give foes saves against the illusion as they look around.

[Glimbur]

The other option is to add a bunch of other invisible critters around. Sure, with enough spot/listen you can pinpoint that something is invisible over there. But what is it? I don't know, it's invisible. This might not be relevant, depending on why you need an invisible zombie, but it's an option.

[OldTrees1]

Illusions (disrupting line of sight) and decoys are good ideas.

@ericgrau
Silence does solve the listen DC problem.

[TuggyNE]

Well, it can take 20 to hide itself without ranks in the skill. That adds 20 +- dex to it.

I don't believe you can take 20 on an opposed check, especially if you have no way to evaluate how well you did (and a mindless zombie attempting to hide itself definitely has no idea how well it did).


Can mindless creatures make skill checks?

Yes; anything can make an untrained skill check unless it's a) a trained-only skill (Hide isn't), b) a skill that self-evidently isn't possible for the creature (Use Rope for a frog), or c) has a non-ability in the skill's key ability (? Not quite sure if "automatically fails Int checks" would count for skill checks and not just ability checks).

[OldTrees1]

@TuggyNE

So if I can boost the hide check to over 60* then it would be better to not cast greater invisibility?

*1d20+Dex+8(racial Dark template)+2(masterwork tools)+30(improved cloak of elvenkind)

[erikun]

@TuggyNE

So if I can boost the hide check to over 60* then it would be better to not cast greater invisibility?

*1d20+Dex+8(racial Dark template)+2(masterwork tools)+30(improved cloak of elvenkind)
The DC 40 is to identify that there is something invisibile at the location that the character cannot see. (It is DC 60 to locate exactly which square.) This is assuming that the creature is standing out in the open and would otherwise be visible; if it has any kind of concealment, this would add to the DC.

If the creature is making some attempt to hide (or someone has made an attempt to hide the creature) then you're looking at a +40 bonus to that hide check if the creature is invisible and not moving.

I'm not sure why you'd need Silence, as an undead doesn't need to be making sounds if it isn't moving anyways. Smell would be a much larger concern, especially with anything with scent.


My biggest person question is: What exactly do you need a 60+ Hide check against something worried about a zombie? Anything that could reasonably be challenged by a DC 60 skill check should not be worried about a CR ½ creature. To say nothing about having access to magic like True Seeing or Detect Undead at that level.

[OldTrees1]

@erikun
Silence is to avoid the listen check when the creature moves.

Who said anything about CR 1/2?

True Seeing and detect undead are a concern. I guess I could use a naturally invisible astral construct instead.

The goal is to give a Mindsight Skillmonkey a challenge that is just inside their skill range in order to reward them for and demonstrate their focus.

I think this will work. Thanks everyone.

[Admiral Squish]

Here's a fun trick: Invisible Invisibility spell. Cast it on the zombie, then hide him behind an illusionary wall. If they use true seeing, the spellcaster sees through the wall, but sees the invisible spell effect, which renders the zombie invisible. Add in silence and nobody's gonna find that zombie.

[TuggyNE]

True Seeing and detect undead are a concern. I guess I could use a naturally invisible astral construct instead.

True seeing still punches through that just fine, as does see invisibility; only invisibility purge is ineffective.

[CyberThread]

Dangle this zombie from a hook in the ceiling or something, have them walk over a trap , that releases the hook , and have raining invisible zombies fall on said party.

[OldTrees1]

True seeing still punches through that just fine, as does see invisibility; only invisibility purge is ineffective.
huh. I would have though it would stop at least true seeing. But double checking Invisible Stalker reveals that True Seeing sees the body as it normally isn't (aka sees it as visible).

Is there a way around True Seeing?

[CyberThread]

*sorta* but gets expensive

mind blank

[TuggyNE]

Is there a way around True Seeing?

Maybe mind blank, maybe Invisible Spell. Dispels.

None of those are perfect, and some of them are rules-dubious.

[CyberThread]

This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.



See Invisibility
Divination
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 2

[TuggyNE]

This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.



See Invisibility
Divination
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 2

Do you really want to have this discussion again? Because I do not. Let's just leave it at "reasonable posters have disagreed in the past, and will again, on whether this is a functioning trick".

[erikun]

huh. I would have though it would stop at least true seeing. But double checking Invisible Stalker reveals that True Seeing sees the body as it normally isn't (aka sees it as visible).

Is there a way around True Seeing?
Physical obscuration, such as fog. Put them lying down inside a fog bank (natural or with a spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fogCloud.htm)) and cast Silence on them. 100% impossible to see them without being right next to them, and 100% impossible to hear them. (Although the rogue might notice something funny through a listen check when all sound stops.)

The best part about it? True Seeing does absolutely nothing, and if the fog is large enough, the party isn't going to waste their time trying to blow it all away. However, you are unlikely to get your rogue to wander through a fog back along.