Launch Bolt + Sneak Attack = x_x

[Segev]

I had another thread on Launch Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15710679#post15710679), and again, I know it's probably not new, but I didn't quite want to necromancy that thread, and I had a further thought.

Obviously, the chain-gun bolt launching available through Reach Split Ray Chain Arcane Thesis Launch Bolt is a bit silly. By level 7, you're looking at a 4th level spell slot for 20 bolts, at 1d8+1 damage each (you DID use GMW, right?).

But Unseen Seer is actually quite reachable, as well. I'm not going to posit a definite build to get there just now, but instead focus on something downright terrifying: Sneak Attack would apply to each bolt fired, since they're all separate attacks. Even +1d6, multiplied by 20, is frightening. And the good hide score you have to start with combined with the possibility of having Invisibility from which to start...you can be within 30 ft and manage it.

Actually, if you can get "spotters" to place the bolts for you, you can pull it off from within 60 ft. Sneak Attack requires the attack to originate from within 30 ft. The bolts are fired from their starting position as if you'd fired them. Reach Spell means you can target bolts out to 30 ft. from your position. Unseen Servants might work well, here. Keep the bolts close to the ground...

"Sniper's Shot," from the Spell Compendium, unlike True Strike, may even be applicable to extend the distance from which you can make a sneak attack to "as far as you dare fire from." It says it only works on your next "single" attack; you'd need to ask your DM whether he considers the dual chained launchings to be "a single" attack or not. Note: this works because it's a swift action, so you can cast it in the moment between firing the rays at the initial bolts and actually rolling to attack with the launched bolts. (True Strike would expend itself on the rays, since you MUST cast it first.)

But even without shenanigans for extra range, if you can get yourself invisibly into place or just hide well enough (and Unseen Seer does require 8 ranks of Hide), that's at least 1d8+1d6+1 per bolt. You can probably apply Heroics for Point Blank Shot (another +1 damage), Martial Study (any Shadow Hand maneuver you like), and Assassin's Stance (+2d6 more sneak attack), and if you're not using a swift action for another spell, Hunter's Eye (PHB2) will net you another +1d6.

Buffs aside - as they last longer than 1 attack each - you're dishing out a potential 20d8+80d6+40 piercing damage for the price of a 4th and a 2nd level spell slot. Maybe 2 2nd level spell slots if you're burning an Invis. to get your targets flat-footted.


It's amazing just how frightening you can make a cantrip with application of a few metamagic feats and class features. >_>

[Deophaun]

Sneak Attack would apply to each bolt fired, since they're all separate attacks
Not quite. It's not the fact that they're separate attacks that matters. It's the action required to make them that defines how many get sneak attack damage. If it's done as a standard action, then only one gets the sneak attack bonus. If it's done as a full-round action, then they all get the bonus.

So the question is: are you a wizard, or a sorcerer?

[Segev]

...wait, what?

I've never heard a rule like this before. Where does it come from and how is it worded, precisely?

[Curmudgeon]

I've never heard a rule like this before. Where does it come from and how is it worded, precisely?
It's in Rules Compendium on page 42. It's not Open Gaming Content, so I can't give you the precise wording. The short version is that you can only apply precision damage to a volley if you use a full-round action that encompasses all your attacks.

[Fouredged Sword]

Thus you want to be a sorcerer so Chain Launch Bolt is a full round action to cast. Then each attack gains sneak attack damage.

Scorching ray is the same way. No mater how may rays you fire, you get sneak attack only on the first hit.

[Segev]

That's...peculiar. Just the kind of RAW-exploiting nonsense that makes TO fun, of course, but frustrating from an in-game perspective.

So, sorcerer/rogues with multi-strike spells are just better than wizard/rogues with multi-strike spells?

Out of curiosity, since I always have Beholder Mage shenanigans lurking at the back of my head, what do the rules say about sneak attacks and free actions?

[Curmudgeon]

Out of curiosity, since I always have Beholder Mage shenanigans lurking at the back of my head, what do the rules say about sneak attacks and free actions?
Just one instance of sneak attack in a volley, then.

[Segev]

So, then. Sorcerer->Unseen Seer is the superior build for cheesing out Launch Bolt+Sneak dice. But is it the only one? Can a prepped caster get in on this? Can he find a way to extend his casting to a full round action?

The sorcerer has a big disadvantage in lack of feats to GET to the chaingun build. It would not be unreasonable for a player to ask a DM if he could voluntarily extend the casting time of something, but that is house-rules territory, and that's not very helpful here. So, is there a RAW way to do this with a wizard?

I think there's a way to get one spontaneous spell/day, so you could do it once/day off of that, I suppose. Anything else?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

If a Wizard using the Spontaneous Divination ACF and Versatile Spellcaster takes a full-round action to cast a metamagic spell when casting spontaneously, then the Wizard would get the full benefit of sneak attack, I suppose.

[Segev]

Well, Launch Bolt as outlined is HEAVILY meta-magic'd, so as long as he can get it spontaneous...

Interesting rules oddity, though. I somehow doubt it was intended that an Empowered Scorching Ray cast by a sorcerer with a single level of Rogue would do 3d6 more damage than one cast by a wizard with a single level of rogue.

[Thespianus]

It's in Rules Compendium on page 42. It's not Open Gaming Content, so I can't give you the precise wording. The short version is that you can only apply precision damage to a volley if you use a full-round action that encompasses all your attacks.

That is an unusually poorly phrased passage in the Rules Compendium, but you are absolutely right. It goes against the "spirit" of Volley Attacks that has been outlined before, but doesn't break or change any earlier written rules, as far as I can see.

Wow.

[Fouredged Sword]

Signature Spell can do it. Get spell mastery (launch bolt) then signature spell (launch bolt) and you can cast launch bolt like a cleric casts cure/cause spells.

Now I want to do this as an unseen seer gestated with a ranger scout swift hunter for skirmish + Sneak attack. Travel devotion will solve the movement issue.

[Segev]

Signature Spell would even be 100% in theme for this build; it's already taking Arcane Thesis for that little cantrip!


The next challenge is to figure out a solid way to play from level one on up, since the chaingun doesn't come online at all until level 6, when you can Arcane Thesis Launch Bolt for Reach Chain into a 3rd level slot (and 9 total bolts; even at level 6, 9d8, probably with +9 or +18 from GMW and/or PBS, is pretty spectacular damage).

Maybe sniping with heavy crossbows from long range using True Strike, at lower levels? Not very efficient. But thematic.

[Fouredged Sword]

It's not a bad cantrip. I would go for fell weaken to turn it into a solid low level debuff. 1d8 damage and a -4 penalty to strength on a non-touch attack is worth a first level spell slot.

Get some alchemists bolts (make them yourself) and or poison for better results. An alchemist bolt turns it into a touch attack. Arguments can be made for targets of the splash damage also taking the penalty.

Then you take a level of rogue, and that adds 1d6 sneak attack.

Rogue 1 / wizard X would be my build, to start with better skills and HP.

[Thespianus]

Hmm, wouldn't the Reach Spell metamagic require you to succeed with a Ranged Touch attacks on all bolts that have been spread out, in order for you to be able to cast the spells?

So, there's one Ranged Touch attack for each Bolt you want to launch, and then one attack roll per target for the bolt. Lots of rolling. ;)

[Segev]

Hm. As a note: I never assume flaws, because no gaming group I've been has allowed them. So even my theoretical builds tend to lack them.

That said...let's start with a human, because this is feat-intensive.

Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll (wiz bonus); Fell Weaken; Spell Mastery (including Launch Bolt; Human Bonus)
Wizard 3: Reach Spell
Wizard 5: Chain Spell (Wiz bonus)
Wizard 6: Arcane Thesis (Launch Bolt)


Or, using your Rogue 1 idea at level 1...
Rogue 1(L1): Fell Weaken; Reach Spell (human bonus)
Wiz 1 (L2): Scribe Scroll (Wiz bonus)
Wiz 2 (L3): Spell Mastery
Wiz 5 (L6): Chain Spell (Wiz bonus), Arcane Thesis (Launch Bolt)

Hrm. This has too many dead feats. I can't even see how 2 flaws would make it "better" other than allowing the dead feats to lie dormant until they become not-dead.

Which is sad; I kinda like the concept of "young rogue who picks up magic and focuses on crossbow bolts because he knows how good they are." Which Rogue 1 to start would facilitate. I do like the suggestion of Fell Weaken. It's a good fit to make Launch Bolt at least worth taking over simply firing a light crossbow. Its scrolls will scale well with level, too, since there's no CL-dependent or DC-allowed aspects to its casting.

[Segev]

Hmm, wouldn't the Reach Spell metamagic require you to succeed with a Ranged Touch attacks on all bolts that have been spread out, in order for you to be able to cast the spells?

So, there's one Ranged Touch attack for each Bolt you want to launch, and then one attack roll per target for the bolt. Lots of rolling. ;)

Actually, I think it would be just one ranged attack roll, compared against each. Split Ray, IIRC, uses the same attack roll for both rays, and Chain re-uses the attack roll as well, comparing it to the AC of additional targets. So...don't miss that DC 5 attack roll. If your DM allows the cleric to not have to roll to hit with his cure spells, you're probably going to be able to convince him your bolts aren't dodging, either, but by the RAW I do think you're right: you technically need to hit a stationary object with a ranged touch attack.

Whether each bolt launched gets its own separate roll, or you roll once for all the bolts and compare them individually against target ACs, is an open question and depends how you interpret Chain really working. I like to look at it this way: if you Chain, say, a Scorching Ray, do you roll the damage separately for each Chained target, or do you roll it once and just halve the damage each time from that base roll on down?

[Segev]

Hm. I should look at a basic Sorc build for it, as well. After all, not only does the Sorc not need Signature Spell, but he has more spell slots, so if he's a chaingun-focused fiend...

Human:
Sorc 1: Reach Spell; [feat to make Hide a class skill] (human bonus)
Sorc 3: Chain Spell;
Sorc 6: Arcane Thesis: Launch Bolt
Unseen Seer 1 (L9): Split Ray (start gaining sneak attack, too)

I'm probably jumbling up opportunities to make this better, though.

Here, I can see some use for flaws to bring some of the feats lower.

Adding Rogue to it slows down its acquisition of spell levels pretty severely.

[Thespianus]

Actually, I think it would be just one ranged attack roll, compared against each. Split Ray, IIRC, uses the same attack roll for both rays, and Chain re-uses the attack roll as well, comparing it to the AC of additional targets.
Well yeah, maybe you are right. But I've always thought there was a "One Roll , one sneak attack damage"-rule, that you basically only get one round of sneak attack damage per attack roll.

But that is proably just me misinterpreting the volley-rules.

[Segev]

I confess to having no idea. Volley rules are not my strong suit, and I'm away from book at the moment.


Honestly, it not allowing sneak attack doesn't cripple this technique. It just keeps it from being particularly disgusting. This is a character who absolutely loves Greater Magic Weapon and Craft Magic Arms and Armor. As well as Craft:Alchemy, since I'm told (though I don't know where to find them) there are alchemical bolts one can make.

Spell storing bolts are mean. But even sans that, a simple +1d6 energy bolt suite is impressive. If you're going hunting specific monsters, Bane bolts are probably a worthwhile investment.

[Fouredged Sword]

On a full round action you gain one set of sneak attack die per attack roll.

On a standard action you gain one set of sneak attack on the first attack roll that hits.

You never gain multiple sneak attack applications with one attack roll, and rarely gain more than one sneak attack application per standard action.

[Segev]

So it comes down to whether or not you have to roll each bolt separately. (I do think you TARGET them individually, but I am unsure if you ROLL for them individually. I can argue it eitehr way, and generaly would prefer to argue for less rolling just for everybody's sanity, but...I CAN argue it either way if needs be for efficacy.)

[Fouredged Sword]

I would think you target and roll to attack individually.

Reasoning - "causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow"

Split ray simply makes this happen multiple times. You normally roll for each bolt with a crossbow, so you would do so here.

[Segev]

Fair argument. Less convoluted than any I'd likely make to the contrary, so probably more acceptable and accurate.

[cerin616]

personally, as a DM, I would not allow any more sneak attack additions than you had attacks in a full attack. so even if you have a shenanigans machine shooting billions of arrows, a ranger can only have sneak attack dice as if he made a full attack.

Although, pretty sure I wouldn't allow a shenanigans machine either.

Per raw though, if it takes a full round action to shoot 60 wands, then you you get a sneak attack per attack roll.

[Segev]

For the most part, this combination isn't really "shenanigans." It's straight-forward metamagic application to a 0th level spell, doing exactly what all of the metamagic says it does to exactly what the spell says it does.

It's potent, but it's not quite shenanigans. There aren't corner-case, odd readings involved.

Now, add sneak attack to every bolt? Now we're getting into shenanigans.

[cerin616]

reading the chaingun bolt thread, I am pretty sure it would work as follows:

First, the spell itself has no actual material component, just a verbal and somatic one. I would recommend you use still spell and silent spell on it as well because of this, which may alter the spell level and stuff.

Reach spell means that you can affect any crossbow bolt within 30 feet.

Chain spell means you may hit multiple of those crossbow bolts (assuming they are all in the same range), but you need to have as many as you are trying to affect, so if (in your example) you are chain spelling 8 bolts, there must be 8 bolts to target.

split ray cannot be used as "launch bolt" even as a ray, does not itself deal damage, it causes a bolt you target to be fired.

now you make an attack roll for each of your bolts "as if you fired them from a light crossbow" and so any feats (or special abilities) you have are applied as the spell specifies, and all of them can deal sneak attack damage.

None of these bolts disappear or are created from thin air. you need to have as many bolts as you launch. Also, none of them can be in your spell component pouch, as these are not spell components.

Finally, its not overpowered really, and its not the stinkiest cheese in the world, but its still shenanigans to me. harmless fun shenanigans, but shenanigans none the less. shuriken throwers are worse.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Also, none of them can be in your spell component pouch, as these are not spell components.

Not according to the spell description:



Material Component: The crossbow bolt to be fired (1 sp).


Edit:
Of course, since it's a component less than 1 gp in cost, Eschew Materials would essentially create them out of thin air. Though, since it has a specific cost, it wouldn't be present in a Spell Component Pouch, since those explicitly don't contain:



...those components that have a specific cost... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellComponentPouch)

[cerin616]

Not according to the spell description:

Ahh, my bad, i was looking at "Magic of Faerun", didnt see it was updated.

Disregard that part then.

[Segev]

Discussed in another thread, but Eschew Materials won't provide the bolt to serve as target of the spell, so it doesn't quite work as well as you might hope.

Because the bolt is both target of the spell and material component, the bolt is consumed in the casting, but still gets launched and does its damage before it's consumption removes it from existence. Essentially, there is no recovering the bolt once fired. Eschew Materials does remove it as a material component, so it can theoretically survive being used in the spell. A small boon, but not worth the feat in and of itself.

But yes, you absolutely must have all of the bolts you intend to target. Split Ray splits the ray that targets the initial bolt into two rays, targeting two bolts. Each then chains to (CL) additional bolts, for 2+2xCL total bolts fired.

Still and Silent are nice if you have them, especially since Arcane Thesis makes them free, but I don't know that they really add much to this technique in terms of absolute utility. Unless there's something I'm missing?

[georgie_leech]

Hang on, where are you getting that Launch Bolt has a ray to split?

[Fouredged Sword]

Reach spell is used to turn the spell into a ray to allow you to apply chain. It is a little convoluted. You can then split ray it as well. Twin would also be a good choice, unless that runs into issues.

[Segev]

Arcane Thesis Twinned Reach Split Ray Chained Launch Bolt is a 7th level spell (slot). When you can cast it for the first time, you are level 13, and Arcane Thesis makes your CL 15 for the purposes of Launch Bolt. You are hitting four bolts with the twinned split ray, and each chains to another 15 bolts per Chain Spell, allowing you to launch 64 bolts in one round. This is so many bolts that you had to prepare two Greater Magic Weapons to enchant enough to fire with this single casting (and you made them +3 bolts in the process).

That's up to 64d8+256 damage, split up into as small as 1d8+4 (you likely have Point Blank Shot by now, even if you had to cast Heroics to get it) chunks on up to as many as 64 individual foes.

For a seventh level spell slot, that's nothing at which to shake a stick.

You can do it with lower-level spell slots if you have Metamagic Rods.

Metamagic Twin Rod lowers it to a 4th level slot. Split Rod lowers it to a 5th, as does a Reach Rod. A Chain Rod lowers it to a 6th. You can't combine the rods on one casting, though.

[Fouredged Sword]

No, but you can prepare several copies of the spell into lower slots because you know you can use the rod to complete the effect.

Are we accounting for easy and practical metamagic, as well as versatile spellcaster?

Also, at level 13, the spell caster is likely to have +1CL. So, 16 bolts per chain.

[Segev]

I assume there are PrCs that I'm forgetting which give metamagic bonus feats, but assuming straight wizard, probably human, that's 8 feats he could spend on metamagic by 12th level. ...sorry, 7; one of those is Arcane Thesis.

I don't know that we're going to have room for Practical Metamagic. I'm not familiar with Easy Metamagic. Remind me where Versatile Spellcaster comes in to this?

[Fouredged Sword]

If we can get versatile spellcaster into the build by 11th level, then you can cast a 7th level spell at 11th level by burning two 6th level spell slots.

As for the rest, it almost seems worth setting up a faustian pact for... we could lower the spell level to 5th.

Easy metamagic is much like practical metamagic, but with different prereqs and from dragon.

[Chronos]

First of all, I'm not sure that Fell Weaken and the like would work here. As I read it, the spell isn't itself actually doing damage; it's just causing the bolt to do damage. You can no more put Fell Weaken (or Fell Drain, or whatever) on it than you could put it on the Greater Magic Weapon.

Second, note that the target line says "one crossbow bolt in your possession". Depending on how your DM defines "possession", this might rule out placing the bolts in front of you to extend your range.

[Segev]

Hm. The problem with Practical and (I assume) Easy Metamagic is that they're specific to a metamagic feat. We'd have to pick one to which to apply both, if we really wanted to get the most out of them, and that consumes two feat slots.

Still, even one of them would get Reach or Split Ray down to "free" on Launch Bolt, and both would get Chain down to free and Twin down to +1. But to do that to all of them (such that the whole thing would cost only a net +1) would require 6 more feats.

1. Reach
1. Split Ray (human)
3. Chain
5. Twin (wizard)
6. Arcane Thesis
9. Practical Metamagic (Reach)
10. Practical Metamagic (Split Ray) (wizard)
12. Practical Metamagic (Chain)
15. Easy Metamagic (Chain)
15. Practical Metamagic (Twin) (wizard)
18. Easy Metamagic (Twin)

So doable by level 18. At which point your first level spell slots are firing 84 crossbow bolts.

[Segev]

First of all, I'm not sure that Fell Weaken and the like would work here. As I read it, the spell isn't itself actually doing damage; it's just causing the bolt to do damage. You can no more put Fell Weaken (or Fell Drain, or whatever) on it than you could put it on the Greater Magic Weapon.A valid point. I can make the argument that the bolt only does the damage as a result of the spell, but it IS stretching it a little bit.


Second, note that the target line says "one crossbow bolt in your possession". Depending on how your DM defines "possession", this might rule out placing the bolts in front of you to extend your range.

This is also true, but you can do things to pretty unambiguously define them as "under your control" which, barring a DM who's juts looking for a reason to say "no" and is unwilling to step up and just say it for whatever real reason he wants to say it, that should be sufficient. e.g. have Unseen Servants hold them in quivers for you at the designated range.

Barring that, sure, just keep them on your person and fire from there.

[Debatra]

Twin Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/twin-spell--2989/) actually doesn't work. A Twinned spell doesn't give you additional targets.

Also, you don't need Rogue levels to capitalize on Sneak Attack. Take a two-level dip in Unseen Seer (http://dndtools.eu/classes/unseen-seer/) and add Hunter's Eye (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/hunters-eye--2941/) to your spells known.


At 2nd, 5th, and 8th level, you can add a new spell to your spellbook or list of spells known, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a divination spell of a level no higher than that of the highest-level arcane spell you already know. The spell can be from any class's spell list (arcane or divine). Once a new spell is selected, it is forever added to your spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on your list.

[Segev]

Hm. You're right on that; Twin Charm just forces two saves, for instance. Twin Fireball just does double damage, effectively.

I think. Somebody double-check my reading of that, please?

[Debatra]

You've pretty much got it. The best you could hope for with Twin Spell is convincing the DM to increase your attack range because "the spell's applying the same force, but twice" or something.

Practical Question: Does the Archmage (http://dndtools.eu/classes/archmage/)'s Arcane Reach ability also turn touch spells into a ray? The ability is exactly the same as Reach Spell, except it doesn't specifically say it turns into a ray.

[Curmudgeon]

Practical Question: Does the Archmage (http://dndtools.eu/classes/archmage/)'s Arcane Reach ability also turn touch spells into a ray? The ability is exactly the same as Reach Spell, except it doesn't specifically say it turns into a ray.
Unless it uses the specific word, it's not a ray. "Ray" is a defined keyword in the game; see the Glossary entry here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ray&alpha=R). Arcane Reach results in something that works similarly to a ray, but it isn't actually a ray without that label.

[Chronos]

Similarly, you can't Split Ray an Orb spell, and Orb spells can hit the Tarrasque. They have very similar mechanics to rays, in that they require a ranged touch attack roll to work, but they are not rays.

[cerin616]

You also can't "split ray" on Launch Bolt, even as a ray spell, because, unless there is a different metamagic feat than the one I am reading here, it can only affect rays that deal damage.

Launch bolt does not deal damage. The bolt it throws does, but the spell itself does not.

Edit: Dang it, yea, complete arcane's wording allows it. stupid updates.

[Segev]

So you can't split ray off of Arcane Reach from the Archmage, but honestly, did we want to wait that long to be able to do this, anyway?

Sadly, Twin won't double your bolts, per the discussion here. Quicken still works, though; but it does cost you an extra spell slot if you want to "double" your bolts fired.

I'm still interested in things one could do with Launch Bolt to make it a viable component of a build while climbing to level 6 from level 1.

[morkendi]

I like this, but I am trying to figure out the practical way a wizard would carry around this many bolts to make it a staple to his build. He would have to have the option of doing this in a dungeon crawl. I can see it defending a castle or such, but I don't see a wizard pushing a wheelbarrow of bolts. You can have hirelings, but they are vonerable. Evil wizard could raise dead and have them carry stuff, but it seems it would take a ton of bolts. A bag of holding can carry enough, but the time it takes to pull enough out?

[Segev]

Quiver of Elhonna comes to mind. A few Unseen Servants could carry a lot of them and have them in easy reach of your rays, even allows for tactical placement if the DM isn't being weirdly obstinate about the definition of "possession" but is also not outright banning this.

[XenoGeno]

I like this, but I am trying to figure out the practical way a wizard would carry around this many bolts to make it a staple to his build. He would have to have the option of doing this in a dungeon crawl. I can see it defending a castle or such, but I don't see a wizard pushing a wheelbarrow of bolts. You can have hirelings, but they are vonerable. Evil wizard could raise dead and have them carry stuff, but it seems it would take a ton of bolts. A bag of holding can carry enough, but the time it takes to pull enough out?

If tracking encumbrance, it seems like the easiest solution would be to enchant a bunch of arrows with the sizing enchantment; as a swift action, you can make them any size category, so make them Fine sized. Plus, if you can increase your own size category, you can increase the damage of each bolt up to 6d6 for Colossal size without accuracy penalty. You'll probably want a turn to set-up, but if you can also get some accuracy buffs, it might be worth the -8 penalty to attack to get the 6d6 per bolt.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Damn, I had a plan for using minor creation to churn out a ton of bolts with only a short prep time, but apparently nothing created with minor creation can be used as a material component :smallfurious:

Question: What happens to any objects attached to the bolts when they are fired, ie. rope, grenades, bombs, soul stealing grimoires, etc?

[Segev]

Damn, I had a plan for using minor creation to churn out a ton of bolts with only a short prep time, but apparently nothing created with minor creation can be used as a material component :smallfurious:Now that would be something Eschew Materials could solve for you! Now they're not needed as material components, and nothing says Minor Creation's creations can't be targets of spells.


Question: What happens to any objects attached to the bolts when they are fired, ie. rope, grenades, bombs, soul stealing grimoires, etc?

This has a hefty amount of DM call to it. What happens if you try to attach these things to a bolt in a light crossbow and fire it?

[Thespianus]

I'm still interested in things one could do with Launch Bolt to make it a viable component of a build while climbing to level 6 from level 1.
Not sure if this is of any help at all, but the Feat "Arcane Manipulation" from Lost Empires of Faerun allows you to split higher level spell slots for lower level spells. So, a level 2 slot could be used for 4 Cantrips like Launch Bolt. ( 1 Cantrip counts as 1/2 level spell, for the purposes of this Feat)

That doesn't make it viable, IMHO, but it's a way to get more castings of the spell, if that interests you.

[Segev]

Sadly, no, because what I need to make Launch Bolt worth building even slightly around at levels 1-5 is something that makes it stand out from simply having a light crossbow. It has the advantage of only taking a standard action to fire without need to take a move to reload, but a single Unseen Servant can do re-loading duties if that's the concern, and it lasts for hours as opposed to one shot.

So for Launch Bolt to be "fun" and interesting, there needs to be some advantage to it being a spell used to launch crossbow bolts that sets it apart from optimzing around using a light crossbow.

One can construct arguments for things like Fell Weaken, because damage is caused as a result of the spell, but it does require at least a minor stretch of definitions. +1 slot level metamagics that could make it do interesting things would be useful for level 1-2. +2s become viable at levels 3-4, and +3s at level 5.

Unfortunately, quick-building for the chaingun requires some metamagic feats you simply can't use at the levels you pick them up, too.

[Debatra]

Quicken still works, though; but it does cost you an extra spell slot if you want to "double" your bolts fired.

Yes, but there's the issue of standard vs full-round actions and sneak attacks. You'd get more damage in one volley with each bolt getting an extra fistfull of d6's.

That said: Metamagic Reducers, meet Quickened Arcane Fusion (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-mage--58/arcane-fusion--890/). (Greater Magic Weapon and [Extended?] Hunter's Eye (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/hunters-eye--2941/))

Possible pre-launch buffs

Greater Magic Weapon
Hunter's Eye
Flame Arrow (Energy Substitution/Admixture?)

[Segev]

Applying sneak attack is nice if we can; I am getting the feeling that's gray enough that when combined with this technique most DMs will firmly call "shenanigans." That said, you do have a point about Quicken not working with Sneak for all the bolts, if Sneak indeed does work with all of them under any circumstance.

[Segev]

Possible pre-launch buffs

Greater Magic Weapon
Hunter's Eye
Flame Arrow (Energy Substitution/Admixture?)

All good, but still begging the question as to why not just use a light crossbow. But definitely looking in the right direction, I think.

[Debatra]

Applying sneak attack is nice if we can; I am getting the feeling that's gray enough that when combined with this technique most DMs will firmly call "shenanigans." That said, you do have a point about Quicken not working with Sneak for all the bolts, if Sneak indeed does work with all of them under any circumstance.

It's been discussed to an extent. It works by RAW, but you're probably right about a DM calling shenanigans. Of course, that's a possibility with this entire concept.

The earliest you could really do this trick is 6th-level. Arcane Thesis, Reach and Chain Spell. Third-level spell slot. Assuming no buffs to caster level, that's seven attacks in one round.


All good, but still begging the question as to why not just use a light crossbow. But definitely looking in the right direction, I think.

Because a crossbow gets you one attack/round (two if you use two crossbows) and takes time to reload. At full stength (so far), this trick gets you 2 + 2(caster level) attacks in one round.

[Curmudgeon]

Question: What happens to any objects attached to the bolts when they are fired, ie. rope, grenades, bombs, soul stealing grimoires, etc?
Well, that would be up to your DM, but pretty much what you'd expect:

You've turned the bolts+attachments into improvised weapons.
Improvised weapons only have 10' range increments.
You take a nonproficiency penalty.
The DM adds whatever circumstance penalty they deem suitable. If you're adding something that outweighs the bolt by a factor of 100, expect a commensurate penalty.
Basically, expect to hit only on natural 20s. Even after that, there's no guarantee that you'll get the effect you want. For instance, a rope attached to a bolt is just going to be lying there after the bolt is destroyed on impact. (I guess it's a way to pay the line out in a straight path quickly.)

[Sith_Happens]

Somehow I'm still in before Incantatrix. Weird.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you want to fire things other than bolts, consider using launch item. Any fire object up to 10lbs is an option. Chain this an apply it to eggshell grenades. Now everyone is blind, no save SR no!

[Rabidmuskrat]

I'm actually thinking of what happens due to it being a material component? Does it disappear with the bolt or does the bolt just vanish, leaving behind the thing you attached to it?

Also, how would the spell suddenly have its range increment shortened? It specifically states it ignores all range increments.

[Curmudgeon]

Also, how would the spell suddenly have its range increment shortened? It specifically states it ignores all range increments.
The spell range isn't affected, but the thing attached to it is the improvised weapon. The bolt can go further, but the rope (or whatever) can't.

[Akal Saris]

Time to deep-dive down the D&D rules legislation rabbit hole!

I still don't see where people are seeing the "raw" that a full round action spellcasting over-rules the volley restrictions.

I have the Rules Compendium open to Pg. 136, and I see 2 separate parts (paraphrased):

A) "Hey, don't worry about using a standard action to make many attacks! It's legal in this case, and you use full BAB on each attack!"

and

B) "Hey, some spells can strike multiple times in the same round! But bonuses to damage like SA apply only on the first attack, hit or miss!"

But there is no connection that I see between A and B. There is no clause in B) that says, "Hey, this restriction only applies to the standard action spells we talked about 3 paragraphs ago. It wouldn't apply on a full round action spell, if you were somehow able to do that. You know, like a core sorcerer using scorching ray and empower spell."

Instead, it's a blanket restriction: spells with multiple 'strikes' only get bonus damage once, do not pass go. Swift, standard, or full round.

Am I missing another section of the rules compendium that contradicts this, maybe? Don't get me wrong, I'd allow multiple bolts in my own games because Hey, it's awesome, but I don't see the raw rules that others are seeing.

(Sidenote: if one were to argue that launch bolt isn't under the volley rules at all, for some reason such as the multiple strikes coming from metamagic and not an intrinsic part of the spell, well, that's an interesting argument, and I'm sure there are DMs that would buy into it)

[Rubik]

I'm actually thinking of what happens due to it being a material component? Does it disappear with the bolt or does the bolt just vanish, leaving behind the thing you attached to it?The bolt used as a material component is used up in the casting of the spell. This is a different bolt than those targeted by the spell.

Otherwise, the bolts would be vaporized, and you couldn't fire anything.

--Basically, you need an extra bolt (which is wasted) for every time you cast the spell.

[edit] You should totally add the splitting, explosive, and exit wounds enhancements to your bolts. Obliterate all opponents in a line-attack, all the way to the end of the bolts' ranges -- and everything within a radius of them, as well.

[Debatra]

*snip*

The spell doesn't actually strike anything. The bolts do. The spell acts like a light crossbow, thus the spell Chained acts like several light crossbows, each individually targeted and loosed.


The bolt used as a material component is used up in the casting of the spell. This is a different bolt than those targeted by the spell.

Otherwise, the bolts would be vaporized, and you couldn't fire anything.

--Basically, you need an extra bolt (which is wasted) for every time you cast the spell.

I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but I believe the material componant line for Launch Bolt specifies "the" crossbow bolt.

---

Another potential buff is Arrow of Bone (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/arrow-bone--3846/), though it would complicate things if attempted on the same mass scale. If you took Practical Metamagic (Chain Spell) and either at least one Archmage level (for Arcane Reach) or Arcane Thesis (Arrow of Bone), you could cover one volley with 100gp and two 9th-level spell slots.

It still wouldn't be bad for making a few specific bolts extra-lethal and just sending those at a few high-priority targets.

EDIT: There's also possibly Abundant Ammo (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/spells/abundantAmmunition.html). The only issue is that it's Pathfinder.

[Segev]

First off, I want to apologize if this looks like thread necro. In reality, I've just been offline since Wednesday (about 4 days ago, now), and I am catching up on it. Secondly, thanks for all the discussion, because it's really interesting. The bit to which I am responding below I call out to make sure my questions are, themselves, clear:

Because a crossbow gets you one attack/round (two if you use two crossbows) and takes time to reload. At full stength (so far), this trick gets you 2 + 2(caster level) attacks in one round.
This part was a response to me asking "why not just use a crossbow?" I failed to re-iterate in that question - probably due to thinking the context was clearer, for which I apologize - that this question is asking about how to play the character pre-level-6. Because the post is quite right in its earlier statement:


The earliest you could really do this trick is 6th-level. Arcane Thesis, Reach and Chain Spell. Third-level spell slot. Assuming no buffs to caster level, that's seven attacks in one round.The "chaingun" turns on at level 6 at the earliest.

As a matter of practical optimization, when I find a trick I like enough I want to actually see if it can be played, I also try to come up with a character to build around it. If the trick is the tank-killer Gatling Cannon, I want to build a character who is the A-10.

Since I actually think this "trick" is actually not even really shenanigans (barring trying to finagle sneak attack on each individual bolt or the like), but rather just straight-forward (if slightly sideways-thought) application of various feats to an otherwise highly underwhelming 0th level spell, I am intrigued by building a PC who uses it.

It is definitely potent, insofar as damage effects go.

However, at levels 1-5, I am hard-pressed to justify the feats that must go into building it as at all individually useful, with Launch Bolt or any other spell. Likewise, I am hard-pressed to justify the attention verging on obsession paid to Launch Bolt as represented by a 6th level Arcane Thesis on this heretofore-useless cantrip.

In short, I would like ideas on how to make Launch Bolt, if not "powerful," at least cleverly useful, preferably with metamagic feats or some quirk that exploits its unique targeting. Particularly, I would like a reason for a 1-5 level wizard to use it in favor of a light crossbow, and to do so regularly enough to bother preparing it. It again needn't be powerful, but it should be interesting enough that one could prepare the situation in a way one couldn't with a light crossbow.

[Debatra]

Ah, my mistake.

Honestly, you'd probably be better off playing your preferred standard Sorcerer/Wizard until level six.