[AD&D] Mage and Bard spell books

[Vastly]

So after a long time of not playing a 2nd edition AD&D game (my first PnP system), our group has finally decided to give it a try. The GM and myself are veterans of the system, though rusty, and the other 3 players are all new to it.

Despite the cobwebs in my brain, I decided to play an elven mage/minstrel(bard) that I found in The Complete Bard's Handbook. It sounded fun and we needed an arcane caster, so bam!, mage/bard.

I guess the question is, how would their spell books interact? Can I copy from the mage to the bard? How about form the bard to the mage? Can I memorize into my bard spell slots from my mage book and vice-verse? Do any of the normal rules even apply being that I'm both a mage and a bard?

Any insight into this would be appreciated it! Thanks :smallsmile:

[hamlet]

Depends on how your DM rules. I have always ruled that Mage magic and Bard magic are two separate entities despite being from the same list and all, thus one cannot copy from the other. Thus, you'd have two spell books.

But, the DM can easily rule that they're both the same thing and, theoretically, you can have them all in one big book.

Talk to the guy behind the screen and get his official ruling.:smallbiggrin:

Also, Mage/Bard multi-class . . . that's kinda cool.

[LibraryOgre]

I would rule that a 2e bard who has multiclassed to mage would have one spellbook, but would allow the character the full array of slots (mage+bard). Bard spellcasting is, usually, presented as being a form of mage spellcasting, rather than a wholly separate entity; there are only a few cases (Birthright) where this is not the case.

[Rhynn]

Yeah, this is definitely DM-ruling territory, but I'd agree with Mark Hall: one spellbook seems easier, if nothing else. Although I can also understand DMs who rule that bards cannot learn spells from mages' spellbooks (and thus would require you to keep two spellbooks), though it seems a bit unfair given that, AFAIR, the DMG treasure tables don't differentiate arcane spells between mage and bard... so a bard would be pretty much screwed on getting new spells.

[satorian]

There is no fluff reason to differentiate. Unlike 3.x, there is no "bardic magic". Bards are just hedge wizards who have other skills.

[Jay R]

When making a judgment call, I prefer to go back and read the basic rules for a basis for the decision - especially in the case of the kits. In this case, I went back to the Complete Bard's Handbook to look up the mage/minstrel combination.

I discovered that minstrels cast spells differently from mages.


Minstrels cannot cast spells in the typical manner. When a spell calls for a somatic component, they must play an instrument. Likewise, they must sing when a spell requires a verbal component.

Material components must be carried on the minstrel;s person in a specially prepared leather bag (made from deer leather).
...
Special Hindrances: Without an instrument, Minstrels cannot cast spells that requires somatic components.

Based on that information, I would rule that the spells must be written differently, because the bard spells include musical notation. Therefore you cannot use a mage spell in a bard spell slot or vice versa.

It's up to your DM, but the rules say that the spells are different, and that's the basis on which I would rule.

[Daremonai]

I would argue that your ruling is both correct and specific only to Minstrels. Your quote does not mention other bards at all, so the special hindrance applies only to the kit it references.

Not that it makes a lot of difference here, as the OP is indeed playing a Minstrel.

[Kaervaslol]

If I were your DM I would not allow the spellbooks to stack. Bards get their spells by dabbling in the arcane arts. The maximum level of magical proficiency is displayed by the wizard already. It makes no sense that a person that studies + parties knows more about magic than someone who studied full time.

[Daremonai]

He doesn't - the mage/bard has spent LONGER studying magic (needs more XP to progress) and is better practised at casting whats/he knows (more spell slots) but doesn't understand magic as well as a pure mage (lacks the higher spell slots)

[Kaervaslol]

He doesn't - the mage/bard has spent LONGER studying magic (needs more XP to progress) and is better practised at casting whats/he knows (more spell slots) but doesn't understand magic as well as a pure mage (lacks the higher spell slots)

He has spent the same time studying magic (the xp requirements for the mage class are the same in both multi class and single class characters). The wizard represents the pinnacle of magical power, what can he learn from a bard that can barely get his stuff together in order to cast a spell?

I would also advice against this from a gaming perspective. The spell list is short and limited for a reason, you don't want a character flinging too many spells because it will break the game. The only character allowed to be Magic user/Bard is the Minstrel kit in the complete elves handbook, which pretty much makes the bard casting go through hoops in order to be able to cast a spell.

[Jay R]

I would argue that your ruling is both correct and specific only to Minstrels. Your quote does not mention other bards at all, so the special hindrance applies only to the kit it references.

Not that it makes a lot of difference here, as the OP is indeed playing a Minstrel.

Yes, I only answered the question being asked. But also, according to the Compete Bard's Handbook, Mage/Minstrel is the only multi-classed Mage/Bard allowed for elves.

[The book also allows Mage/Loremaster and Mage/Riddlemaster for half-elves. If he'd asked about those combinations, I'd have looked up the rules for Loremasters and Riddlemasters.]

[Lapak]

He has spent the same time studying magic (the xp requirements for the mage class are the same in both multi class and single class characters). The wizard represents the pinnacle of magical power, what can he learn from a bard that can barely get his stuff together in order to cast a spell?Plenty. It's like asking, oh, 'what can a professional classical violinist learn by moonlighting as a fiddle player at contra dances?' - the violinist will build up general playing endurance just like with any time spent on the instruments, and though the techniques might not translate directly it gives him a few new tricks and expands his vision of what his instrument can do. (Read: more spell slots, slightly more spells in spellbook.) They might not end up as technically flawless in the symphony environment as they might if they spent all their practice hours working on that, but they'll have compensations.

A mage/bard won't progress as quickly as the pure mage - her XP is split, after all - but she'll have a broader range and an understanding of how magic can be applied differently than a pure mage might. Bards cast spells, but they take a different approach and use a different kind of discipline to get there, and it makes plenty of sense that you could productively explore them both.

I would also advice against this from a gaming perspective. The spell list is short and limited for a reason, you don't want a character flinging too many spells because it will break the game. The only character allowed to be Magic user/Bard is the Minstrel kit in the complete elves handbook, which pretty much makes the bard casting go through hoops in order to be able to cast a spell.As is true in all editions, a few more low-level spells is rarely going to be as 'game-breaking' as a couple of higher-level spells... and it's worth noting that while multi-class characters keep up well level-wise up through 9th or 10th level, the end of the geometric XP progression puts them behind in a hurry right as the really potent spells start coming online.