CSI- D&D Style

[The Trickster]

So, does anyone know if it is possible by RAW to make a forensic-based check? More specifically, making a check that can tell how long a person has died, how they died, etc. I'm looking at heal checks for that, but I don't see anything by RAW to support it. I just want to see if I am missing something! :smalltongue:

[Piggy Knowles]

There's the Investigate feat from Eberron Campaign Setting. It has a bunch of interesting uses that all fit the "forensic" theme, including the following:

"By examining a body, you might determine whether the victim fought back or provided no struggle at all, or if claws, a weapon, or a spell killed the victim."

It involves a search check, and fills other forensics-like aspects, such as figuring out where a spellcaster was standing when a spell was cast based on scorch marks on the wall. Might be worth a read.

[Slipperychicken]

I know this isn't what you're looking for, but I was watching way too much Law and Order recently, so here are some tools/tips for would-be D&D investigators:


You'll want someone at the lab running standard divinations on questions related to the crime. The more times you ask the same question, the right answer should come up most often.

Gloves of Object Reading (MiC, 3,000gp) would be invaluable, especially if you find a murder weapon.

Speak With Dead (Clr 3) is your bread-and-butter in murder cases where it applies, although most killers will try to mutilate their victims to prevent it.

Corpse Candle (Sorc/Wiz 3, SpC) is great for searches, revealing all hidden/ethereal/invisible creatures and items. You'll never miss a thing, and you don't even need to frisk people most of the time.

Suspects and witnesses should submit to (i.e. volunteer to fail their saves against, suppress immunity to) Detect Thoughts spells as appropriate, since there isn't much that can fool it short of a DC 100 Bluff check or obscure class abilities. If there's a police wizard high-level enough for Probe Thoughts, that would be ludicrously helpful too.

If you run into an important but lengthy document in the course of your investigation? Scholar's Touch (Sorc/Wiz 1) lets you read it instantly.

Before interrogation, standard operating procedure should be to remove all the subject's magical items and auras prior to questioning. You'd probably want to put him in a Zone of Truth to boot.

Discern Lies (Clr 3, Pal 4) would be really nice. The suspect should be asked to lie immediately after the spell is first cast so you know it's working, and present his speech in such a way that it wouldn't be evasive.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Slipperychicken
*CSI: Sharn*

I think I've just found the protocols for the crime unit in my city campaign. :smalltongue:

Just one comment on Scholar's Touch--it lets you absorb the general gist of a book or text, but it doesn't give word-for-word recall, so if you're looking for something subtle and obscure you might still need to read the entire 278-page dwarven mining contract, with special attention to the clauses and subparagraphs involving labor relations.

This would be very DM-dependent, naturally, just thought I'd mention that one detail.

Otherwise, this is just cool. Allow me to suggest Burial Blessing (Clr 1) as a general safeguard for the city morgue, and Gentle Repose (Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3) for those cases where a body needs to be preserved for later examination.



EDIT: Also, Races of Destiny has Scholar's Touch as Bard 1 and Clr 1 as well as Sor/Wiz 1.

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[The Viscount]

Watch Detective is great for forensic stuff, as he can use Gather Info to determine what the perp looks like and Search to determine cause of death.

[avr]

There's a Pathfinder spell which might be worth stealing, Blood Biography (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-biography).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Complete Adventurer has rules to use the heal skill to determine cause of death.

[Slipperychicken]

Complete Adventurer has rules to use the heal skill to determine cause of death.

Have someone cast Weildskill and/or Guidance of the Avatar on the mortician (or whoever is supposed to make this skill check), use Masterwork Tools (healing kit), then Take 10 to basically auto-succeed. Even if the mortician was a completely unskilled hack with a +0 base skill, his check result would be 32.

Since retries are allowed and spells are precious, it would be more like:

Take 10 with MWK tools -> If that fails, Take 20 (only takes 3 and a half hours) -> If that fails, cast Guidance of the Avatar and Take 10.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Gloves of Object Reading (MiC, 3,000gp) would be invaluable, especially if you find a murder weapon.

Can also be duplicated with object reading (Seer 2). In that vein, what else do psionics bring to the table?


Before interrogation, standard operating procedure should be to remove all the subject's magical items and auras prior to questioning. You'd probably want to put him in a Zone of Truth to boot.

It would also be a good idea to test if the subject passed the will save or not. You could hold up a note printed on red paper that says, "That paper is blue." You then explain to the subject that the phrase is in reference to the paper it is printed on, then tell the subject to first think about what it says (so that they realize that it's a lie) and then to read it out loud. If they were affected, they should be unable to read the phrase aloud. Subjects that passed could fake that they couldn't, but only if they knew about the zone of truth, and it would allow sense motive vs. their bluff.


Discern Lies (Clr 3, Pal 4) would be really nice. The suspect should be asked to lie immediately after the spell is first cast so you know it's working, and present his speech in such a way that it wouldn't be evasive.

The problem with this spell is the incredibly short duration. Since the number of NPCs that will even be able to cast it will be fairly uncommon (it's actually [Clr 4, Pal 3]), the number that will be able to cast it with even a minute duration will be even rarer. Lesser rods of extend would be a must. But a smart suspect could either wait the spell out or speak deliberately slowly. The suspect could even just add lots of irrelevant details that ate up time without being too suspicious. You could have little peepholes that gave the caster line of effect while hiding the caster. You could then have the spell cast at a signal from the interrogator without the perp knowing, but then you'd be unable to test that the spell worked. You'd also probably want lesser rods of silent if going that route.

Of course, if a suspect knows the standard magical routines for interrogation, it becomes much harder to interrogate them using those methods.

[Slipperychicken]

The problem with this spell is the incredibly short duration.


You don't keep it on through the whole interrogation. After the subject tells you his story, write down a few key phrases (the first of which being the test) and ask him to utter them when the spell is cast to corroborate his story.

For example, you'd have him say the "test lie" ("I do not exist" might work?), then things like "I am responsible for the death of Potleaf Noonsleeper", "I know how Potleaf Noonsleepr died", "I told you everything I know about the case", "I have told you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth", and so on. Failure on the subject's part to speak the phrases properly within the allotted time, or otherwise interfering with or resisting the spell would be perjury. You could probably set up an hourglass (with a different amount of sand, obviously) so the subject knows how much time he has to say everything on the list.

[ArcanistSupreme]

You don't keep it on through the whole interrogation. After the subject tells you his story, write down a few key phrases (the first of which being the test) and ask him to utter them when the spell is cast to corroborate his story.

For example, you'd have him say things like "I am responsible for the death of Potleaf Noonsleeper", "I know how Potleaf Noonsleeper died", "I told you everything I know about the case", and so on. Failure on the subject's part to speak the phrases properly, or otherwise interfering with or resisting the spell would be perjury.

Oh, I really like that. Obviously it doesn't always work with a code of laws that allows a right to remain silent, but I suppose that if it's gotten this far, they have agreed to answer questions. The short duration, however, is an issue. A slow, deliberate speaker, either by nature or by deceptive intent, could eat up a good chunk of the forty two second spell with just the test question. Other ways of dragging out the process would be feigning/having difficulty reading the questions (or asking the interrogator to repeat the question if they are read aloud), considering the questions, or hesitating at all for any reason.

The phrases would have to be practiced once or twice before the spell is cast, there could only be 5-10 phrases, and I would still like lesser rods of extend.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ArcanistSupreme
Obviously it doesn't always work with a code of laws that allows a right to remain silent, but I suppose that if it's gotten this far, they have agreed to answer questions.

This is where Intimidate comes in handy, as well as all the other dirty tricks that can be used in small dim rooms.

And most jurisdictions probably won't have the same concept of civil rights that we do. Harsh justice provides for a lot of leeway in the questioning phase.


Originally Posted by ArcanistSupreme
The short duration, however, is an issue. A slow, deliberate speaker, either by nature or by deceptive intent, could eat up a good chunk of the forty two second spell with just the test question.

Good points here. The protocols for questioning, made known to the witness beforehand, could include stiff penalties or other repercussions for obvious delaying tactics, or any other failure to answer instantly.

[ArcanistSupreme]

This is where Intimidate comes in handy, as well as all the other dirty tricks that can be used in small dim rooms.

And most jurisdictions probably won't have the same concept of civil rights that we do. Harsh justice provides for a lot of leeway in the questioning phase.

True, true. But there is still a possibility for similar civil rights to exist in a fantasy setting. Although in a super harsh system, the suspect could be held, poisoned with Will reducers (striped toadstools (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) seem best, although they are absurdly expensive) and questioned indefinitely until they eventually roll a few 1s and can be successfully interrogated.


Good points here. The protocols for questioning, made known to the witness beforehand, could include stiff penalties or other repercussions for obvious delaying tactics, or any other failure to answer instantly.

Which also has the potential to backfire if the subject, again either by nature or intent, begins to stutter and trip over the words out of sheer terror (real or feigned).

[Piggy Knowles]

Seriously, when it comes to interrogations, no magic compares to a ridiculous Sense Motive check (Inquisitor helps for an easy +10 bonus) and the Master Manipulator feat.

[dysprosium]

No Sharn is already part of the Law and Order franchise as seen in my Iron Chef XLIV entry:

Walter Penstapho (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15129962&postcount=279)