OOTS #908 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[MadBear]

Looks like Durkon's back on the team :smallcool:

[ScrambledBrains]

WOOHOO! Durkon is still gonna help them! And Z...didn't really expect him to snuff it yet, but that was a heck of a kill.

Love the comic, Giant! :smallsmile:

[Ornithologist]

Hahahaha! The energy drain! Its how I know Durkon is still Durkon

[A_Man]

Dang, I was hoping Z would last longer... Put my stomach in a knot seeing Durkon kill Z that merclilessly....

Awesome chapter as usual Giant, amaizing you can give such emotions over and over again. ^_^

[Invariel]

That dealt with a couple of Linear Guild problems rather handily. And we have a brand new Durkon to make things better. Hurrah.

[Seerow]

Once again Durkon's lack of ranks in Knowledge Religion hurts him.


Or rather Roy in this case.

[Demolator]

WHAT?! BUT!!! No!!! Zz'dtri! Why! :smalleek:

Too many lives have been lost :smallfrown: I'm gonna' miss Z most of all, he'll always be the best LG member to me. At least Durkon's gonna' try to help the Order out. I kind of hope he sticks with them but I don't know how likely it is.

[Shular]

Wonder what the demon said as it left. Something along the lines of "I don't need to put up with this <stuff>."

[Julian84]

Oh, Giant, I could hug you right now :smallbiggrin: That is just too brilliant.

[ralphmerridew]

Go Durkon!

[RustyVenture]

Laughed out loud at the energy drain. So ZZ'ditri is dead now, and Durkon is back with the team. The OOTS owe Nale a HUGE thanks.

[BlasTech]

Whoops, way to go Durkon.

[Arcanist]

Vamp Durkon is best Durkon. For now, forever and for all time until the end of time. :smallbiggrin:

[Scowling Dragon]

This isn't going too be the same Durkon at all. Im a bit scared.

[Gift Jeraff]

He died as he lived: silent.

RIP Zz'dtri
You were instrumental in ridding us of that obnoxious vampire.


I wonder if Nero will get his soul...

[Arrowstorm122]

Didn't know vampires energy drained on touch. Malack didn't do that, did he? He could heal Elan, for example.

[StreamOfTheSky]

SNAP!

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

...that is all.

[Yendor]

Okaaay. That was a rather abrupt end for Zz'dtri. Well, Durkon's back to normal-ish, at least.

[Tingel]

"I also have potions", haha.

[Thokk_Smash]

AAWWWWWW YEEEEEAAAAAHHHH! HELL YEAH, DURKON!

Ahem. That was cool (And the last panel made me laugh :smallbiggrin:)

[Tsyndrome]

Woops!

Durkon is back! Err... maybe not quite Durkon!

[HeeJay]

How to dismiss summoned creatures - the Durkula way!

Awesome.

[Porthos]

That was a remarkably sudden demise for Z! :smalleek: :smalleek:

Guess, Durkon hasn't learned to turn off his Energy Drain powers yet forgot that he now spontaneously Inficts instead of Cures.. Whoops. :smallamused:

And, yep. He's evil. Remarkably so, if make my guess.

[molten_dragon]

Laughed out loud at the energy drain. So ZZ'ditri is dead now, and Durkon is back with the team. The OOTS owe Nale a HUGE thanks.

That's interesting. I was assuming he damaged Roy because he was evil now, so his cure spells became inflict spells. I didn't think of the energy drain angle. I wonder which it was?

Edit: Looking back, I think it was an inflict spell. I think that's what the 'reverse polarity' refers to.


Also, Z just died from a vampire. If they leave his body there, he'll rise again won't he, in three days? Vampire Z is not a loose end you want to leave around!

Nah, that only happens if the vampire kills you by draining your CON to zero.

[EmperorSarda]

I guess Vampire Durkon forgot that since he is evil his spontaneous spell conversion no longer produces cure spells.

But that being said, he is free willed now. He doesn't have to be evil. Why is he letting his vampirism affect his personality? So why isn't Vampire Durkon good now?

[Inkling]

Whoops.
Good to have (a version) of Durkon back! I hope it isn't as ill-fated as I have a sneaking suspicion it might be.

At least their free to return to Durkon's homeland now.
Did that need a spoiler? Probably not.

[The Rose Dragon]

I don't think that's an energy drain. I think Durkon is simply trying to spontaneously convert one of his spells to a Cure spell, but since he's Evil now, he gets an Inflict spell instead.

Also, man, this was anticlimactic.

[Thokk_Smash]

Didn't know vampires energy drained on touch. Malack didn't do that, did he? He could heal Elan, for example.

He healed him by touching him with the staff, if I remember correctly.

[Tingel]

Didn't know vampires energy drained on touch. Malack didn't do that, did he? He could heal Elan, for example.

I thought his spontaneous cure spells just turned into inflict spells because he turned into an evil cleric, and he did not remember that before he used one of his regular memorized spells in this manner. I don't think it was an energy drain.

[Malanthyus]

Laughed out loud at the energy drain. So ZZ'ditri is dead now, and Durkon is back with the team. The OOTS owe Nale a HUGE thanks.

Durkon didn't energy drain him. He used brute force to snap his neck. Or if he did use an energy drain attack, that wasn't what killed Z. To create a vampire spawn or other vampire, the actual kill has to be energy drain or blood drain.

[Aeriander]

Is the rest of the Order going to misinterpret this as a hostile action against Roy? They don't know what's going on with Durkon, and they certainly don't know Malack is dead.

[Leirus]

I wonder if Nale will try to bring Z back. Great strip!

[Maugan Ra]

Laughed out loud at the energy drain. So ZZ'ditri is dead now, and Durkon is back with the team. The OOTS owe Nale a HUGE thanks.

Also, Z just died from a vampire. If they leave his body there, he'll rise again won't he, in three days? Vampire Z is not a loose end you want to leave around!

I'm pretty sure just getting your neck snapped by a vampire isn't enough to make you turn. You need to have a full set of blood drinking first, really.

Also, yeah, OK, that worked out surprisingly well. All we need now is for Tarquinius to stab Nale to finish the job...

[SavageWombat]

That was harsher than I expected.

Vampires drain levels as part of their slam attack - so I'm hoping Durkon can learn to not drain people by accident. But we'll see.

[Burner28]

Interesting. Whilst Durkon is certainly less merciful, it's nice to see that he still cares about the Order.

[Giggling Ghast]

That neck snap was a bit surprising.

Still, glad to see Durkon's back! Sort of.

[tcrudisi]

Hahaha. Brilliant. Well, that proves that Durkon is evil (as if he was neutral, he'd still be able to channel positive energy). I would also argue that realizing you channel negative energy instead of positive energy would be based more on Wisdom than Intelligence, though the joke is still hilarious.

[Irish Musician]

Oh Mr. Rich....you made me laugh so loud just then.

"......I also haf potions" Classic awesome D&D funny. Love the way the comic is going, even though I did cry a little when Durkon was turned, but stories can't all be sunshine, rainbows, and unicorns, so I'll just have to deal with the tears :smallamused:

Keep up the brilliant work Giant! :smallsmile:

[liooil2000]

Didn't know vampires energy drained on touch. Malack didn't do that, did he? He could heal Elan, for example.

I think he tried to cast a heal spell with spontaneous casting, but because he is now evil it turned into inflict.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[HZ514]

Hooray Durkon!

GG Z.

[AutomatedTeller]

I didn't expect the elf to die there. Go Durkon!!

LG is hurting now, isn't it, presuming Thog is actually dead, of course. Just Nale and Sabine.

Durkon better help out heftily with the elemental - presumably, the devil will do so.

That was an energy drain? It was the same color as Durkon's spell, so I assumed cure moderate wounds backfired, though I don't really understand why it would.

[Arathnos]

That was deliciously evil and beautiful.

[Goosefeather]

Hah, I imagine the crustacean demon's ranting as sounding like a sulking Zoidberg.

I wonder if V got to see Z's demise - and what exactly our favourite Neutral-sometimes-bordering-on-Evil elf thought of Durkon just casually snapping his neck like that.

[DaggerPen]

"... I also haf potions."

*dead*

So, uh.

Wow

Okay, so Durkon seems to be evil. That was the consensus, but it is a shame. Still, this will definitely be interesting. And - wow. There goes Z, I guess. Yikes.

[toapat]

Magnificent Execution on the behalf of Durkon.

[Porthos]

I guess Vampire Durkon forgot that since he is evil his spontaneous spell conversion no longer produces cure spells.

Ah, a much better read of things. Yeah, I'd say you're right about that.

Should edit my post I think.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Didn't know vampires energy drained on touch. Malack didn't do that, did he? He could heal Elan, for example.

Durkon tried to convert a prepared spell to cure X wounds, like he always does (a good cleric has no logical reason to EVER actually prepare cure spells, he can just convert others to them anyway, so prepping others doubles his versatility). But, now being evil, it converted to evil, and that caught him by surprise. Hence the strip title.

[The Giant]

That's interesting. I was assuming he damaged Roy because he was evil now, so his cure spells became inflict spells. I didn't think of the energy drain angle. I wonder which it was?

Edit: Looking back, I think it was an inflict spell. I think that's what the 'reverse polarity' refers to.

That's correct. The Cure Moderate Wounds was converted to an Inflict Moderate Wounds per the fact that all vampire clerics channel negative energy.

[thatSeniorGuy]

Wow .... and that's a goodbye to Z.

OTOH, loved the last two panels!

[Forikroder]

wow didnt see Z dieing like ta tcoming at all :smalleek:

[watupwithdat]

The inflict spell was pretty funny. Hopefully the rest will be too busy with the sandy one to notice before he can give him a potion. May cause some issues otherwise.

[RickDaily12]

Has Malack ever touched any living creature directly while healing them? :smallconfused:

Perhaps this is why he never did, and would use the staff instead.

I also imagine this is another purpose of the Giant inventing Mass Death Ward- a means to have Durkon given a way to safely heal the Order, as well as be free of the worry of all negative energy/level defects.

Clearly not the same Durkon. Friendly, but still... This is going to be interesting.

EDIT: super ninja'd. Ah well. MDW still helps the Order in this way.

[Roland Itiative]

Nice to see the alignment change didn't seem to shift his loyalties at all, at least at first.

I wonder what's happening to Haley meanwhile... May it be we'll need to have Durkon cast that Raise Dead he has prepared after all?

[B. Dandelion]

I can't get over Durkon's >:D expression in panel three. I don't think he's ever made it before in the entire comic, and it's so... disturbing, especially in the context that he's making it as he snaps Zz'dtri's neck in cold blood. Brrr... :smalleek:

[Anarion]

Nice, love the "evil, but still likes the planet" angle. That probably even extends just to stopping Xykon since there's no reason Durkon would want to be ruled by Xykon any more than any other selfish and powerful evil character.


That's correct. The Cure Moderate Wounds was converted to an Inflict Moderate Wounds per the fact that all vampire clerics channel negative energy.

Oh, that makes a lot of sense. I had thought it was artistic license with the energy drain.

Also, minor art complaint: there's a stray bit of beard in the first panel of this comic that extends into Durkon's mouth and is sort of driving me nuts.

[Rakoa]

... goodbye Z, you will be missed. I'm hoping a resurrection will come eventually.

[Drakeburn]

Yay! Durkon is still good! And he's still himself. :smallbiggrin:

[Secris]

Holy crap. He killed Z! I thought Z and Nale would both get away... woah. Just... woah. O_O


Also, hilarious at the end. That's probably gonna have to take some getting used to. Maybe Z can learn to heal so Durkula can be the main nuker X_X

[DaggerPen]

Oh hey, I just realized that Durkon threw Z's body at the daemon to show that said daemon could leave now. That makes a lot of sense.

Question: someone identified the font that the daemon is using, right? Does it say anything particularly fun, even if it's just "no secret message"?

[Incom]

O_O

Anyone translate the pisco-thingy's text bubble?

[Kim]

It looks like the crustacean summon is speaking in Miskatonic (http://www.fontspace.com/blambot/miskatonic), a free font that appeared in Questionable Content a few years ago. Can anyone read the speech bubble well enough to see what it says?

Also: Yay Durkon! RIP, Zz'dtri. :(

[Zach J.]

Holy crap. He killed Z! I thought Z and Nale would both get away... woah. Just... woah. O_O


Also, hilarious at the end. That's probably gonna have to take some getting used to. Maybe Z can learn to heal so Durkula can be the main nuker X_X

Durkon will still be able to heal. He'll just have to prepare Cure spells from now on.

Great strip. Durkon's always been my favorite character and his turning into a vampire has only made the guy more interesting.

[Ivrytwr]

Aw yeah!
Gonna miss Z. Obviously Durkon is not fully back. Funny to see the bumbling good-natured help.
Time to save Haley.
Gotta wonder how Durkon and Belkar are going to greet each other.
The one thing Nale doesn't run short on is arse-saving retreats!

[Admiral]

Also, minor art complaint: there's a stray bit of beard in the first panel of this comic that extends into Durkon's mouth and is sort of driving me nuts.

That's one of his fangs.

[Tock Zipporah]

Wonder what the demon said as it left. Something along the lines of "I don't need to put up with this <stuff>."

*Roger Murtaugh voice* I'm getting too old for this...

[sotanaht]

That's correct. The Cure Moderate Wounds was converted to an Inflict Moderate Wounds per the fact that all vampire clerics channel negative energy.

So just because hes a vampire and not necessarily because vampire Durkon is evil aligned then?

[SavageWombat]

It looks like the crustacean summon is speaking in Miskatonic (http://www.fontspace.com/blambot/miskatonic), a free font that appeared in Questionable Content a few years ago. Can anyone read the speech bubble well enough to see what it says?

Also: Yay Durkon! RIP, Zz'dtri. :(

I think Aaron Williams used that in PS 238 for some of his aliens, too.

[Porthos]

Has Malack ever touched any living creature directly while healing them? :smallconfused:

Perhaps this is why he never did, and would use the staff instead.

I also imagine this is another purpose of the Giant inventing Mass Death Ward- a means to have Durkon given a way to safely heal the Order, as well as be free of the worry of all negative energy/level defects.

Clearly not the same Durkon. Friendly, but still... This is going to be interesting.

EDIT: super ninja'd. Ah well. MDW still helps the Order in this way.

Well, we know that Malack prepared healing spells for his party. So he must be able to cast them if he prepared them ahead of time. Durkon probably was trying to convert one of his spells to CMW and just forgot to read the fine print. :smallamused:

But the staff angle works as well.

[Jiggs]

Ouch that hurt; and I am a bit surprised by Durkons new ruthlessness.
Maybe the vampire component will be a stronger issue in the future but as for now, as Durkon is saying to Roy "the world is still hanging in balance"

[Forikroder]

so i guess this measn Durkon jsut lost his Thors might then

[Chessgeek]

What is the strength bonus for becoming a vampire again? Breaking someone's neck with one hand is obviously not an easy feat.

[destiny919]

I'M SO HAPPY! Durkon's still Durkon, he's just a bit south of Neutral . . . I wonder what that will mean besides probably contributing more to his willingness to kill Z and Nale, and his inability to use positive energy healing spells?

[Felhammer]

Vamp Durkon is scary! :smalleek:

[Math_Mage]

Also, minor art complaint: there's a stray bit of beard in the first panel of this comic that extends into Durkon's mouth and is sort of driving me nuts.
It's not that the beard is in his mouth, it's that his fang extends out from his mouth over the beard.

Wups, ninja'd.

[El Grapadura]

Love it. Puts the million post alignment debate to rest pretty quickly, haha. "No more evil than Belkar" is a pretty succinct description of where he stands. Very well executed, and a lot of potential to explore the character, group dynamic etc. just makes me wonder what it will be like when the time comes to part ways...

[Tsyndrome]

I especially like the smoke rising off Roy in the last panel. Nice touch.

[Ezekiel]

I love Nale's expression when he realizes he's alone with a very strong vampire :smallbiggrin:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What is the strength bonus for becoming a vampire again? Breaking someone's neck with one hand is obviously not an easy feat.

+6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm). If he started out with STR 16 (not unlikely, given his main melee approach), he is now strength 22 - he is unlikely to have boosted STR in his level-ups.

GW

Edit: Hah! Porthos, Zach J., thou hast been ninjaèd!

[Porthos]

What is the strength bonus for becoming a vampire again? Breaking someone's neck with one hand is obviously not an easy feat.

+6 IIRC. .....

[Zach J.]

What is the strength bonus for becoming a vampire again? Breaking someone's neck with one hand is obviously not an easy feat.

The vampire template adds 6 strength to the base creature, but I think Durkon breaking Z's neck was just an example of a coup de grace.

[Connington]

So Durkon's clearly evil. But he's feeling friendly. He's also prophesied to bring death and destruction to the Dwarvish lands. So I'm thinking Roy is going to have a lot harder time keeping Durkon below the green line. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html). Besides the typical bloodsucking, I imagine he's going to have some words with his former holy brothers about exiling him. And by words I mean murdering all of them. (I'm not very good with euphemisms)

[Tock Zipporah]

I guess Vampire Durkon forgot that since he is evil his spontaneous spell conversion no longer produces cure spells.

But that being said, he is free willed now. He doesn't have to be evil. Why is he letting his vampirism affect his personality? So why isn't Vampire Durkon good now?

He's free willed, but he's still powered by negative energy, which is like walking around with a tainted soul. The negative energy is bound to influence his behavior (such as making him mercilessly snap Z's neck instead of taking him prisoner), but his core personality should remain the same.

[Anarion]

It's not that the beard is in his mouth, it's that his fang extends out from his mouth over the beard.

Wups, ninja'd.

I'm not convinced. If you look at the close up in panel 3, you can see white marks showing both fangs, but there's still an extra gray line from the beard extending into the mouth. It's not really a mistake, since there's no reason for his beard not to be a bit shaggy, but I just find it bothersome.

[The Recreator]

That's correct. The Cure Moderate Wounds was converted to an Inflict Moderate Wounds per the fact that all vampire clerics channel negative energy.

Is that because vampires are Always Evil? Or is there something fundamental to vampirism other than alignment (at least in the OotS setting) that causes them to channel negative energy?

I figured I'd ask because the concept of an "Always" alignment description in the Monster Manual has been a subject of great importance in previous OotS comics, and I think understanding this could help shed some light on Durkon's upcoming character development.

[HalfTangible]

Didn't know vampires energy drained on touch. Malack didn't do that, did he? He could heal Elan, for example.

That isn't what's happening here.

He tried to spontaneously cast a cure spell, but he's a negative energy cleric now, so he ended up casting an inflict spell.


Is that because vampires are Always Evil? Or is there something fundamental to vampirism other than alignment (at least in the OotS setting) that causes them to channel negative energy?

I figured I'd ask because the concept of an "Always" alignment description in the Monster Manual has been a subject of great importance in previous OotS comics, and I think understanding this could help shed some light on Durkon's upcoming character development.

Even if Durkon weren't evil now (he's a vampire, he kinda has to be), he's undead. Positive energy causes him damage.

[Yendor]

It looks like the crustacean summon is speaking in Miskatonic (http://www.fontspace.com/blambot/miskatonic), a free font that appeared in Questionable Content a few years ago. Can anyone read the speech bubble well enough to see what it says?(

I've looked at it, but can't make out most of the letters clearly enough.

[Perseus]

And in this small little way when Belkar dies we will still have a brutal evil little bugger to keep us entertained and murderlate stuff.


Edit: Always in D&D doesn't mean always... It means like 95 percent.

[Amarsir]

Edge of my seat for these next few comics and getting to know the new Durkula. I've always admired The Giant for choosing to make his comic explore the meaning of alignment. And this idea of "What if a truly Lawful Good guy suddenly turned Evil" is such an interesing idea that really, words can't express.

[Felhammer]

What is the strength bonus for becoming a vampire again? Breaking someone's neck with one hand is obviously not an easy feat.

You get the standard assortment of powers (Blood Drain, calling swarms of vermin, the power to Dominate, the ability to drain energy, the ability to create Spawn, Alternate Form (Bat, rat, etc.), Damage Reduction, Fast Healing, Gaseous Form, Resistance, Spider Climb, +6 STR, +4 DEX, +2 INT & WIS, +4 CHA). Interestingly, Vampire Clerics gain access to the Chaos, Evil, Trickery and Destruction Domains. The latter domain has a special ability called smite which gives you a +4 bonus on attack rolls and a bonus on damage rolls equal to your cleric level.

[Quorothorn]

I THOUGHT that Durkon's next move might be killing Z to prompt Dim Door from Nale, but to be honest I didn't truly expect it to happen. Whoa.

Also, never getting over "I also haf potions." Solid gold comedy. :smallbiggrin:

[Infinite]

This. This was great.

[IW Judicator]

We shouldn't worry about the Order's healing capabilities. All they need is a little help from a Cleric in a Can (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html"). :smallbiggrin:

(Though as I think on it...any chance of Z's heart being added to the first batch?)

EDIT:

Alternatively:

*After accidentally giving Roy the wrong potion...

"...I still haf a resurrection prepared."

[Zubrowka74]

I am once again speechless.

First Durkon, then Malack. Now the Drow is dead. I hope the Giant isn't going full "G. R. R. Martin" on us now. :smallbiggrin:

On a sidenote, we've been having two comics a week for a while now and it's not even xmas yet! Hooray!!!

[Anarion]

Even if Durkon weren't evil now (he's a vampire, he kinda has to be), he's undead. Positive energy causes him damage.

He can still cast positive energy spells though. I don't want people to get the wrong impression from this. He just has to specifically prepare his cure spells in advance now, like Redcloak does. It's just that his spontaneous channels are damage instead of curing now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I've looked at it, but can't make out most of the letters clearly enough.

Agreed. Rich, is it feasible for you to provide a larger version of that panel, so we can have our fun with the secret message/gibberish misdirection you added to the comic?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[SSGW Priest]

:roy: "You're not evil?"
:durkon: "Not any more'n Belkar, I'd wager."

:smallcool:

[destiny919]

So Durkon's clearly evil. But he's feeling friendly. He's also prophesied to bring death and destruction to the Dwarvish lands. So I'm thinking Roy is going to have a lot harder time keeping Durkon below the green line. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html). Besides the typical bloodsucking, I imagine he's going to have some words with his former holy brothers about exiling him. And by words I mean murdering all of them. (I'm not very good with euphemisms)

Actually, I always thought that the death and destruction would be because when Durkon returned to the Dwarven lands, it would be because they had to go visit/defend/DESTROY Kraagor's Gate. And even if they manage to save the gate and therefore don't cause a big KRRAAAAAAKAAAAKOOOOOOMMMM then that couldn't be done without considerable bloodshed, especially considering Xykon's penchant for random destruction and killing wherever he goes.

[ArlEammon]

:roy: "You're not evil?"
:durkon: "Not any more'n Belkar, I'd wager."

:smallcool:

Interesting. I was almost right about what would happen next.

[Beowulf DW]

Whoooo! Go Durkula! It's nice to see my favorite dwarf kicking butt again!

[Felhammer]

Is that because vampires are Always Evil? Or is there something fundamental to vampirism other than alignment (at least in the OotS setting) that causes them to channel negative energy?

I figured I'd ask because the concept of an "Always" alignment description in the Monster Manual has been a subject of great importance in previous OotS comics, and I think understanding this could help shed some light on Durkon's upcoming character development.

Vampire Clerics lose the ability to turn undead but gain the ability to rebuke undead. The ability to rebuke undead is tied with the ability to spontaneously channel Inflict Spells.

[Ailowynn]

Wooooooo Durkon! Although I wonder how his evilness will come through. Aside from snapping Zz'dtri's neck.

[Joseph_Lavode]

Poor Z, didn't see that one coming. :smallfrown:

Interesting that Durkon is so casual about the alignment question.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Dammit, I knew I should have brought my phone with me!

Glad to see Durkon's on the team, though...yeah. Definitely not Lawful Good anymore. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually feel a bit bad for Z there.

[Newwby]

Wowzah - on one hand it's Durkon, mannerisms/speech/attitude.
On the other hand it's Durkula - because I doubt Durkon would have so happily killed someone, even Z'ditri. I can't stop looking at that panel and how happy he looks!

:durkon:

*edit* '...I also haf potions' might be my new favourite line.

[B. Dandelion]

I'm not convinced. If you look at the close up in panel 3, you can see white marks showing both fangs, but there's still an extra gray line from the beard extending into the mouth. It's not really a mistake, since there's no reason for his beard not to be a bit shaggy, but I just find it bothersome.

It looks to me like it's just the way the mouths are usually drawn -- they curve, but there's sort of a little "shelf" at the top that extends past the curve. Imagine if Nale in panel two had a fang hanging just below the very rightmost part of his mouth.

[Lex-Kat]

Awww. I'll miss Zz'dtri. As someone earlier (minutes ago) said, he was the best of the LG.

But it was a nice turn-around for Durkon. :smallsmile:

[DeliaP]

I have to wonder about what happens if OotS try to meet up with the Azurites at Kraagor's Gate?

CE Belkar might be viewed various ways such as prisoner or capable of redemption...

But how do the paladins Hinjo, O'Chul and Lien work with a party that has an LE Vampire Durkon??

[Humble Master]

Perfect! OOTS gets Durkon back and Nale has fled. I am really liking the new Durkon.

[Shale]

The surprise to me is that Durkon doesn't seem the least bit conflicted about changing alignments. It's not just going to be a "dark urges" sort of evil - there's actual malice there, at least toward people he doesn't like.

[joela]

"I also haf potions."

ROFLHO! I want a shirt with that on it! :smallbiggrin:

[ella ventic]

I believe the Miskatonic says "If the boss is dead I'm punching out early".

Woo fun with fonts!

[nohamotyo]

WELL. That was unexpected.

I saw Z as part of the Core Four, along with Nale, Sabine, and Thog, when it was actually a Terrible Trio. Z's passing is more disappointing than Malack's to be honest. A shame he didn't speak more.

[The Giant]

I'm not convinced. If you look at the close up in panel 3, you can see white marks showing both fangs, but there's still an extra gray line from the beard extending into the mouth. It's not really a mistake, since there's no reason for his beard not to be a bit shaggy, but I just find it bothersome.

I have no idea what you're seeing, but there's no stray hair in the picture. Just the mouth and two fangs. That wouldn't even make sense anyway, because his beard is not made of individual hairs, it's one big block of color.

[Math_Mage]

I'm not convinced. If you look at the close up in panel 3, you can see white marks showing both fangs, but there's still an extra gray line from the beard extending into the mouth. It's not really a mistake, since there's no reason for his beard not to be a bit shaggy, but I just find it bothersome.
We are talking about the left corner of his mouth, correct?

Examine panels 1-4. The perspective changes slightly in each, and the way the hair goes changes as well. This is because what's actually happening is a 3D representation of the mouth. Compare the large panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html), which has a similar interaction with the beard, though the fang is absent.


And in this small little way when Belkar dies we will still have a brutal evil little bugger to keep us entertained and murderlate stuff.


Edit: Always in D&D doesn't mean always... It means like 95 percent.
And this takeover of Belkar's niche is dramatically fatal. I expect him dead in the next few strips.

[Edric O]

So, uh... the Order now has 2 bona fide Evil members, and one neutral-but-guilty-of-genocide member. This isn't really a Good party any more, is it?

[Arkhosia]

Warning: drama ahead.
NOOO! Z'ZTDRI!
DARN YOU DURKULA, DARN YOU TO BAATOR!
Still happy for Durkon though.

[Gift Jeraff]

So Nale is stuck in the canyon for ~20 hours until Sabine returns. Even then, it's back to flying since she can only teleport herself plus 50 pounds of objects. Though he can also cast Dimension Door at least 3 times a day, moving at least 720 feet with each casting.

[ScrapperTBP]

Oh no Z. You were my favourite LG member. Especially recently. Your smile was so cute.

Durkon still has an elemental to deal with and we they still need to find V. Roy is safer down and out. Leave it to the big guns. Go, go Cleric!

[Goosefeather]

I believe the Miskatonic says "If the boss is dead I'm punching out early".

Woo fun with fonts!

Well, that didn't take long! :smallbiggrin:

[Forikroder]

I believe the Miskatonic says "If the boss is dead I'm punching out early".

Woo fun with fonts!

makes sense

[Quorothorn]

I believe the Miskatonic says "If the boss is dead I'm punching out early".

Woo fun with fonts!

That would fit in nicely with the exasperatedly-raised claw...

I can't stop making this face. :smallbiggrin: What an excellent addition to my evening this update is.

[chillmynaga]

ZZ'dtri was an amazing member of the underdark, when he died, a big hole was left in my heart. Whenever a character dies I like to go back and appreciate their actions and presence, so I'm going to do that right now.

[Forikroder]

ZZ'dtri was an amazing member of the underdark, when he died, a big hole was left in my heart. Whenever a character dies I like to go back and appreciate their actions and presence, so I'm going to do that right now.

i imagine taht wont take long :P

[jamiah93]

If the imp was Z's familiar, and familiars gain power along with their masters, did Z's death cause him to become weaker?
Also, does the imp have a name?

[RossN]

I could see Nale having ZZ'ditri ressurected, assuming Nale lives long enough to get the opportunity. His anger and shock ("get off him!" and "don't you dare drink his blood") were a lot more like someone seeing a friend fighting for his life than just an interchangable employee on the LG payroll.

[Goosefeather]

Also, :elan: can't think of any good lobster puns?

Not even in a pinch like this? :smallcool:

[Yendor]

I believe the Miskatonic says "If the boss is dead I'm punching out early".

Woo fun with fonts!

Yep, just got that.

[Forikroder]

If the imp was Z's familiar, and familiars gain power along with their masters, did Z's death cause him to become weaker?
Also, does the imp have a name?

his name is Quarr...


I could see Nale having ZZ'ditri ressurected, assuming Nale lives long enough to get the opportunity. His anger and shock ("get off him!" and "don't you dare drink his blood") were a lot more like someone seeing a friend fighting for his life than just an interchangable employee on the LG payroll.

that seemed odd to me, it implied a pretty deep relationship

main problem hell have with rezzing Z is getting the body... and finding a cleric

[Pendulous]

Ha, that was the funniest strip in awhile. And it raises an interesting point. When someone is raised as an undead, they still have all their previous memories (obviously). So Durkon knows his friends, and he's willing to help still for his friends and the world. It also adds a little dynamic that was missing from the group. Until now, they were all LA +0 base races. And three humans.

[jamiah93]

his name is Quarr...
oh yeah, no idea how i forgot that

[Forikroder]

Ha, that was the funniest strip in awhile. And it raises an interesting point. When someone is raised as an undead, they still have all their previous memories (obviously). So Durkon knows his friends, and he's willing to help still for his friends and the world. It also adds a little dynamic that was missing from the group. Until now, they were all LA +0 base races. And three humans.

depends what type of undead really, ghouls and ghasts and other minor undead wont

[ti'esar]

I guess now we'll never know what was with Zz'dtri's curiously-strong loyalty to Nale - well, I suppose that it might be included in a LG prequel book, but given the unceremonious nature of his demise I'm not sure I'd bet on it. But other than that, I can't say I'll particularly miss him.

At any rate, I think this book is now pretty much over.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I could see Nale having ZZ'ditri ressurected, assuming Nale lives long enough to get the opportunity. His anger and shock ("get off him!" and "don't you dare drink his blood") were a lot more like someone seeing a friend fighting for his life than just an interchangable employee on the LG payroll.

That's a good point. And Nale looks shocked and horrified in the panel where Durkon kills Z, even though it's hard to see. He genuinely liked the drow.

[ZMiles]

I highly doubt that Z will be resurrected. Nale's gone and Quarr's pathetic in power compared to the standing Order, so there's nothing they can do to protect Z's body. Between Durkon and Belkar, I'd guess they know how to damage a corpse enough to prevent resurrection (like Redcloak did to Tsukiko), and they're both Evil now apparently, so they'd likely do it, if only for pragmatic reasons of not wanting to deal with Z again. Even if the others objected, Durkon's probably stronger than the entire rest of the Order put together at this point, so he could just light Z's corpse on fire and incinerate it until there wasn't enough left to resurrect, and hold off Roy and/or Haley if they tried to put it out.

[Peelee]

And Durkon instantly replaces Malack in my heart. Really hope he gets the afterlife and burial he deserves, but until he is destroyed, I think it's gonna be a helluva ride.

[DoctorIllithid]

Is it just me, or did Nale seem genuinely concerned about Zz'dtri? Hopefully he'll come back and raise him, one way or another.

[Amphiox]

Yay! Durkon is still good! And he's still himself. :smallbiggrin:

I think the punchline of the Cure spell being converted to an Inflict spell pretty much seals it for Durkon now being evil.

But it seems he is the kind of evil that the rest of the Order can co-exist with, at least for now.

[Burner28]

I wonder how Belkar is going to react to Durkon's new alignment.

[Gan The Grey]

Ummm...how is Durkon even going to get spells anymore, seeing as how he is more than a single step removed from his god's alignment of Lawful Good?

[B. Dandelion]

I could see Nale having ZZ'ditri ressurected, assuming Nale lives long enough to get the opportunity. His anger and shock ("get off him!" and "don't you dare drink his blood") were a lot more like someone seeing a friend fighting for his life than just an interchangable employee on the LG payroll.

Yeah, I was struck by that reaction as well. The vampire knocks Zz'dtri out of commission and Nale's response is to try to grab the undead dude and demand he leave his teammate alone. Self-preservation doesn't even kick in until Z's dead and Durkon's attention turns to him.

[Sylthia]

Nice, Durkon to the rescue. It feels nice to predict things correctly, too.

[ellindsey]

I wonder how Belkar is going to react to Durkon's new alignment.

"Welcome to the deep end of the alignment pool" or something similar I expect.

This is awesome. Everyone else in the order has had their character-growth catharsis of one sort or another. Now it's Durkon's turn to finally become an interesting character. Loving it. (Though I will miss Z. Poor elf, you became too powerful and effective to be permitted to remain part of this comic.)

[Math_Mage]

Ummm...how is Durkon even going to get spells anymore, seeing as how he is more than a single step removed from his god's alignment of Lawful Good?

Non-theistically. He's not a Cleric of Thor anymore, but he's still a Cleric.

[Zach J.]

Ummm...how is Durkon even going to get spells anymore, seeing as how he is more than a single step removed from his god's alignment of Lawful Good?

You don't have to worship a deity to prepare cleric spells. As a vampire Durkon has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil or Trickery.

[Forikroder]

Ummm...how is Durkon even going to get spells anymore, seeing as how he is more than a single step removed from his god's alignment of Lawful Good?

1. his god was chaotic good

2. hes a vampire now so gets his power from the negative energy plane

[Solarix]

That was...unexpected! Poor Z, go Durkon!

As always, I´m amazed by great writing! Great work!

[jamiah93]

I wonder how Belkar is going to react to Durkon's new alignment.

"So... still unstylishly bearded, I see"

[Sylthia]

I think the punchline of the Cure spell being converted to an Inflict spell pretty much seals it for Durkon now being evil.

But it seems he is the kind of evil that the rest of the Order can co-exist with, at least for now.

I think you can spontaneously cast inflict spells as a neutral cleric as well.

[Admiral]

Ummm...how is Durkon even going to get spells anymore, seeing as how he is more than a single step removed from his god's alignment of Lawful Good?

Thor's not his god anymore. Read the vampire template- (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Vampire)


Clerics: Vampire clerics lose their ability to turn undead but gain the ability to rebuke undead. This ability does not affect the vampire’s controller or any other vampires that a master controls. A vampire cleric has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery.

The Giant has addressed this directly:



Tell you what, you read the vampire template entry, particularly the part where it explicitly says that vampire clerics can still cast spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) just with different domain access, and you tell me where it says anything about gods or temporary loss of access there. It doesn't. Vampire clerics do not need to worship a god to cast spells, because NO cleric needs a god to cast spells. The rules specifically allow for "non-theistic" clerics, and explains exactly what the effects of turning into a vampire has on a cleric: Rebuke instead of Turn, different domains. Period.

[Forikroder]

"So... still unstylishly bearded, I see"

"ya know i hate to leave a meal unfinished"

[Amphiox]

He's free willed, but he's still powered by negative energy, which is like walking around with a tainted soul. The negative energy is bound to influence his behavior (such as making him mercilessly snap Z's neck instead of taking him prisoner), but his core personality should remain the same.

Translating mechanics to narrative convention, there are many evil characters who do not see themselves as evil. They think that they are fully justified in doing what they do, and that their motives are noble. This could well be how the negative energy manifests itself when a formerly good being becomes undead - their outlook, thinking, motivations, and instincts are just changed ever so subtly to lead them towards evil acts, but they continue to think they are doing good, or if not good, justified "bending" of the "rules".

If I had to guess, at this moment, Durkon is probably having subconscious urges that will nudge him towards seeing himself as justified in his actions, whatever they are, because "I am saving the world from the Snarl, so this can slide."

[Yagerr]

Damd that is some deep character development

[Zach J.]

I think you can spontaneously cast inflict spells as a neutral cleric as well.

A neutral cleric has to make a choice as to whether spontaneously cast inflict or cure spells, yes, but the devil that Durkon summoned doesn't leave much room for interpretation as to the matter of his alignment.

[Goosefeather]

I guess now we'll never know what was with Zz'dtri's curiously-strong loyalty to Nale - well, I suppose that it might be included in a LG prequel book, but given the unceremonious nature of his demise I'm not sure I'd bet on it. But other than that, I can't say I'll particularly miss him.

At any rate, I think this book is now pretty much over.

Maybe in the end it was just as simple as: Pay's good.

[Bird]

OK, the entire vampire Durkon thing is already one jillion percent worth it just for:


An' I'm helpin' ye back. By cuttin' down yer employee overhead.

The fact that it was (sort of) Durkon having such a Belkar moment made it horrifying and hilarious and wonderful.

Well done, Giant.

(Meanwhile, if Durkon had enthralled Z, that could have been a huge gain for the Order. Risky business to be sure, but still.)

[Sylthia]

Clerics: Vampire clerics lose their ability to turn undead but gain the ability to rebuke undead. This ability does not affect the vampire’s controller or any other vampires that a master controls. A vampire cleric has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery.

My money's on Destruction as one of them. Since he's bringing "Death and Destruction" back home. Not sure if he's lawfulness has been affected, so probably Evil or Trickery for the other domain.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe in the end it was just as simple as: Pay's good.

Dental left a little to be desired, though. Or rather, the choice of dentist to give coverage was, in retrospect, not to their advantage.

GW

[Amphiox]

I could see Nale having ZZ'ditri ressurected, assuming Nale lives long enough to get the opportunity. His anger and shock ("get off him!" and "don't you dare drink his blood") were a lot more like someone seeing a friend fighting for his life than just an interchangable employee on the LG payroll.

I think we are seeing a hint as to why Z has remained so loyal to Nale all this time. There is genuine camaraderie between them here, just as there is genuine affection between Nale and Sabine.

It is definitely notable that Z has been left with an eminently resurrectable body here, and it is unlikely that the Order will be intentionally destroying or desecrating his corpse.

I note the continued parallel with his "opposite", V. V got taken into hell against his will. And now, Z, has also.

Perhaps Z will get resurrected soon after V's time runs out. (If that is the case, then my money is not on Nale doing the resurrecting (because I don't think it likely that Nale will be able to get a resurrection arranged within 20 minutes!), though, but Tarquin, perhaps as a means of gaining a modicum of influence/having a favor to be called in over the drow at some point in the future, perhaps as a weapon to use against Nale, if the need should arise to so use it.)

[Sylthia]

A neutral cleric has to make a choice as to whether spontaneously cast inflict or cure spells, yes, but the devil that Durkon summoned doesn't leave much room for interpretation as to the matter of his alignment.

I agree, but to play devil's advocate, he was a thrall when he summoned it.

[Gusion]

yes very good I hoped Z would die!

[Ghost Nappa]

Villains are dying left and right.

And I liked Z. D:

[Forikroder]

I think we are seeing a hint as to why Z has remained so loyal to Nale all this time. There is genuine camaraderie between them here, just as there is genuine affection between Nale and Sabine.

It is definitely notable that Z has been left with an eminently resurrectable body here, and it is unlikely that the Order will be intentionally destroying or desecrating his corpse.

I note the continued parallel with his "opposite", V. V got taken into hell against his will. And now, Z, has also.

Perhaps Z will get resurrected soon after V's time runs out. (If that is the case, then my money is not on Nale doing the resurrecting (because I don't think it likely that Nale will be able to get a resurrection arranged within 20 minutes!), though, but Tarquin, perhaps as a means of gaining a modicum of influence/having a favor to be called in over the drow at some point in the future, perhaps as a weapon to use against Nale, if the need should arise to so use it.)

i find it unlikely any cleric but Durkon can get to that body in 20 minutes

[WolvesbaneIII]

I'm sad about Z. But this raises new questions.

Does the staff have an unlimited amount of sun protection spells?

How does one refill the staff?

What God will durkon worship now?

Would thor make an exception?

Would durkon want to stay a vampire?

Is there a spell to cure one of vampirism aside from dying and a reviival spell?

Who would win in a fight: Durkula or Xykon or Darth V?

[Forikroder]

I'm sad about Z. But this raises new questions.

Does the staff have an unlimited amount of sun protection spells?

How does one refill the staff?

What God will durkon worship now?

Would thor make an exception?

Would durkon want to stay a vampire?

Is there a spell to cure one of vampirism aside from dying and a reviival spell?

Who would win in a fight: Durkula or Xykon or Darth V?

which Darth V? the old Darth V or the current V as Darth V? and with or without Haerta?

[Sylthia]

I'm sad about Z. But this raises new questions.

Does the staff have an unlimited amount of sun protection spells?

How does one refill the staff?

What God will durkon worship now?

Would thor make an exception?

Would durkon want to stay a vampire?

Is there a spell to cure one of vampirism aside from dying and a reviival spell?

Who would win in a fight: Durkula or Xykon or Darth V?

Played smart, Darth V at full power. Durkula got an upgrade, but is still the weakest and non-epic.

[Pendulous]

depends what type of undead really, ghouls and ghasts and other minor undead wont
Well, yeah, they don't have brains. But give a new vampire free will, and he might just turn on its master. Also, isn't there such a thing as good undead?

And Durkon instantly replaces Malack in my heart. Really hope he gets the afterlife and burial he deserves, but until he is destroyed, I think it's gonna be a helluva ride.

Guess it depends on how he acts as a vampire. he appears to be doing the right thing, so Thor will possibly forgive him. As far as his fellow dwarves, well, I don't know about that. If they know he helped save the world, I'm sure they can also forgive him.

[Amphiox]

As I had expected, Durkon really did not immediately call off his devil, and prioritized attacking Nale and Z over directly helping his friends.

However, this might not be just because he is now evil.

It could also have been simply a matter of tactics.

Z very likely still had at least Greater Dispel Magic prepared and still had the ability to Counterspell. So Durkon's solution to this tactical challenge was to critical-hit Z into unconsciousness on the first strike, so he never gets the chance to cast another spell....

A major tactical blunder on Nale and Z's part to have Z come back within Durkon's melee range. Looks like the thrill of victory over Malack made them both complacent. And now the LG has lost its most powerful permanent member....

[EmperorSarda]

That's correct. The Cure Moderate Wounds was converted to an Inflict Moderate Wounds per the fact that all vampire clerics channel negative energy.

Huh, I automatically assumed it was because Durkon had an evil alignment and forgot about the spontaneous spell conversion.

So... a good vampire Durkon still channels negative energy?

Does Durkon get a chance to quest to be a homebrewed positive energy vampire?

[Goosefeather]

Dental left a little to be desired, though. Or rather, the choice of dentist to give coverage was, in retrospect, not to their advantage.

GW

True, that dentist was acting rather savagely. In fact, he was almost... canine :smalltongue:
Gosh, I'm just full of biting wit today, aren't I!

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Yay, Durkon's back albeit as an evil vampire. Now that he has that staff of daylight protection, does this mean that Malack actually made the Order of the Stick stronger?

Outside of being a thrall (no longer relevant), daylight vulnerability (negated by staff), and evil alignment (made moot by Belkar) what's the problem with being a vampire?

[EvilAvocado]

Does Vampirism increase Durkon's melee capabilities?
He cleaved somehow in the last strip and now he snapped Z'sneck with his bare hands:smalleek::smallcool:

[The Glyphstone]

I thought it was Durkon's energy drain and him forgetting (due to his lack of Knowledge: Religion ranks) that he had said ability.

[Solara]

Yay! Durkon is still good! And he's still himself. :smallbiggrin:

I bet Rich is facepalming so hard right now...

[ellindsey]

Does the staff have an unlimited amount of sun protection spells?


Assuming it works like a normal magic staff, it does not have unlimited charges.



How does one refill the staff?


When preparing his spells in the morning, the staff's owner can forgo some of his spell slots to add charges to the staff. So Durkon should be able to keep it charged, assuming he's still getting his spell slots recharged from somewhere.

[Amphiox]

i find it unlikely any cleric but Durkon can get to that body in 20 minutes

My thinking was that after the Order disposes of the Si elemental, they leave, and leave Z's body behind. This should take much less than 20 minutes.

Tarquin could show up after they leave and recover Z's body. He may have summoned the rest of his team, and there might be another cleric in it (besides Malack), or they might have Resurrect Scrolls they can use (it would be consistent with Tarquin to have a backup plan for his team for access to Resurrection in the event that they lose their cleric, if Malack was their only cleric).

[ti'esar]

Despite being a fan of Nale, I also have to admit that I find it pretty funny that his big shining moment of competence immediately came back to (almost literally) bite him.

[Glich]

Woot the d mans back.

Questions for d20 people my D&D skils are 20 years out of date

1. can d learn the protection from sun light spell from the staff ? I assume this was a custom spell of Malack's. if not D's going to have issues pretty fast if they can't find a Rezing cleric in a hurry and that assuming vamp D would just sit there and let himself be beheaded and raised (I assume the vamping gives him some internal motivations not to let that happen.)

2. I assume the harm thing was because of the vamping swaped his spontaneous heals to harms. But next comic day he can fill a chuck of his spell slots with cures right?

[gamephil]

Does Vampirism increase Durkon's melee capabilities?
He cleaved somehow in the last strip and now he snapped Z'sneck with his bare hands:smalleek::smallcool:

He's a high level cleric, he actually gets multiple attacks with the Full Attack maneuver without needing to Cleave. And his Strength and Dexterity are raised, so he is overall a better combatant.

[Sylthia]

Huh, I automatically assumed it was because Durkon had an evil alignment and forgot about the spontaneous spell conversion.

So... a good vampire Durkon still channels negative energy?

Does Durkon get a chance to quest to be a homebrewed positive energy vampire?

From our limited evidence, Durkon seems to be at least neutral, if not evil, since he spontaneously inflicts now. He seemed to enjoy slaughtering Z in a Belkaresque way, so maybe he wants to stay in his new alignment. I remember a cursed hat that made your alignment the opposite of what it was and one caveat was that your character would find the idea of switching alignments back abhorrent, and not try to switch back, so this might be a similar issue.

[Ulthwithian]

Hmm. Regarding Durkon's alignment...

First, Word of Giant is that the reason Durkon spontaneously casts Inflict spells is because he's a vampire. That means that it is not necessarily because he's a vampire.

Second, the devil proves nothing, as a LN Cleric can raise a Devil just as easily as a LG Angel (Archon, I believe they were called, in 3.5).

So while he's most likely LE, he's probably much more LE-ish than LE. Rather like Hayley is CG-ish.

As to whether Durkon still worships Thor, I think the answer is clearly no. However, all of the offstage Hela - Thor arguments now appear to be clear foreshadowing that Durkon will take Hela as his patron.

I also think that Belkar may willingly get vamped by Durkon, which fulfills his prophecy. OTOH, if he doesn't, and he lives a bit longer, you may see he and Durkon flip-flop in terms of arguments. Recall that Belkar blames himself that Durkon is even in his current state, and while a Vampire Durkon may be a lot more powerful, he's a lot less constrained than Dwarf Durkon (cf. Nale's discussion as to why to kill Malack over the Order). So I can definitely see Belkar being the one to argue with Durkon if Durkon changes his ways.

[Fralex]

I believe the Miskatonic says "If the boss is dead I'm punching out early".

Woo fun with fonts!

WAIT. That's the same font the runes for the epic illusion were! Did anyone ever translate those?

[Sylthia]

Does Vampirism increase Durkon's melee capabilities?
He cleaved somehow in the last strip and now he snapped Z'sneck with his bare hands:smalleek::smallcool:

+6 to Strength.

[One Skunk Todd]

Villains are dying left and right.

And I liked Z. D:

Speaking of left and right, is anybody else a little confused by the orientation here? In the views we've generally seen, I thought the LG, Durkon, and Malack were furthest left, then the crater and the OotS near the middle, the Rift, the sand elemental, the far crater edge, and finally Team Evil. But it seems like Z is thrown in from the right, Elan runs to the right where presumably the S.E., Haley and Belkar are, then Durkon runs in, also from the right? I'm all confused.

[Porthos]

I could see Nale having ZZ'ditri ressurected, assuming Nale lives long enough to get the opportunity. His anger and shock ("get off him!" and "don't you dare drink his blood") were a lot more like someone seeing a friend fighting for his life than just an interchangable employee on the LG payroll.


That's a good point. And Nale looks shocked and horrified in the panel where Durkon kills Z, even though it's hard to see. He genuinely liked the drow.


Is it just me, or did Nale seem genuinely concerned about Zz'dtri? Hopefully he'll come back and raise him, one way or another.

These are all excellent points.

Nale CARED about someone that wasn't Sabine.

Maybe he isn't the complete sociopath that some people made him out to be.

...

...

...

THIS COMIC IS PROOF THAT NALE IS NOW LAWFUL NEUTRAL :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek:

Sorry. Couldn't resist. :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

Hmmm, if the Guild is down to just Nale and Sabine (and Qarr), all you need to do is off one of Tarquin's allies (probably the catlady since she seems like she would overlap with Sabine) and then Nale + Tarquin = 6-man party. Again.

I also wonder if Qarr will become Nale's familiar.

[Knight.Anon]

It would be funny if Malack and the elf ended up in line together waiting to get into the afterlife.

[ellindsey]

1. can d learn the protection from sun light spell from the staff ? I assume this was a custom spell of Malack's. if not D's going to have issues pretty fast if they can't find a Rezing cleric in a hurry and that assuming vamp D would just sit there and let himself be beheaded and raised (I assume the vamping gives him some internal motivations not to let that happen.)


There doesn't seem to be anything in the rules at least as far as I can see about letting you learn a spell from a staff. Maybe he could recreate the work that Malack did in developing the spell in the first place by studying the spell. In a RPG that would probably be up to the GM, which means that it's up to the Giant here.

However, he should be able to use the staff to cast it. As long as he's still getting spell slots from somewhere, he can spend some of them to recharge the staff and then use it to cast the protection spell. (As well as the mummy animation spell and the instant vampire spell and whatever other spells the staff has.)

[Shale]

Yay, Durkon's back albeit as an evil vampire. Now that he has that staff of daylight protection, does this mean that Malack actually made the Order of the Stick stronger?

Outside of being a thrall (no longer relevant), daylight vulnerability (negated by staff), and evil alignment (made moot by Belkar) what's the problem with being a vampire?

He can still be driven off by garlic (watch out when Belkar starts cooking!) and the level adjustment of +8 means he will basically never gain a cleric level ever again (so no level 9 spells). Also, as we just saw, he can't spontaneously cast Cure spells - they must be prepared ahead of time, sacrificing some of his versatility as a spellcaster.

[Sylthia]

Woot the d mans back.

Questions for d20 people my D&D skils are 20 years out of date

1. can d learn the protection from sun light spell from the staff ? I assume this was a custom spell of Malack's. if not D's going to have issues pretty fast if they can't find a Rezing cleric in a hurry and that assuming vamp D would just sit there and let himself be beheaded and raised (I assume the vamping gives him some internal motivations not to let that happen.)

2. I assume the harm thing was because of the vamping swaped his spontaneous heals to harms. But next comic day he can fill a chuck of his spell slots with cures right?

The rules are fuzzy on researching spells, so it's more or less house ruled most of the time.

Evil clerics can prepare as many cure spells as they want, they just can't spontaneously cast them.

[Gift Jeraff]

Second, the devil proves nothing, as a LN Cleric can raise a Devil just as easily as a LG Angel (Archon, I believe they were called, in 3.5).

Yes, but Durkon is a godless cleric who cast Planar Ally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm), which says "If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment."

[Ranzarock]

Nooooo...Z...though your appearances were few, I enjoyed each and every one. Your role as the most competent member of the LG will go unfilled. /sob, he was so cute when he smiled without malice, too!

[Math_Mage]

My thinking was that after the Order disposes of the Si elemental, they leave, and leave Z's body behind. This should take much less than 20 minutes.

Tarquin could show up after they leave and recover Z's body. He may have summoned the rest of his team, and there might be another cleric in it (besides Malack), or they might have Resurrect Scrolls they can use (it would be consistent with Tarquin to have a backup plan for his team for access to Resurrection in the event that they lose their cleric, if Malack was their only cleric).

I'm curious, is there a reason for the choice of 20 minutes other than V's timing? Because any 9th-level cleric can do a Raise Dead in the next week or so and get Z back in the action...unless Durkula decides to do something with the body.

[B. Dandelion]

WAIT. That's the same font the runes for the epic illusion were! Did anyone ever translate those?

Yeah, it was "nosecretmessage".

[genderlich]

So... where did Nale go? Dimension Door only has a 700ish foot range for Nale's caster level, so he's not totally out of danger yet. He definitely couldn't have gotten back to Bleedingham.

I was sort of expecting Durkon's mental transition to being a vampire to be a much bigger deal. He pretty much seems like "well, okay, whatever". Not sure how I feel about that.

[137beth]

Oooh, Z's gonna be mad that someone killed his/her arch nemesis for him/her!

Well, until he/she remembers that he/she has a new archnemesis...three of them, in fact:smalltongue:

[Sylthia]

He can still be driven off by garlic (watch out when Belkar starts cooking!) and the level adjustment of +8 means he will basically never gain a cleric level ever again (so no level 9 spells). Also, as we just saw, he can't spontaneously cast Cure spells - they must be prepared ahead of time, sacrificing some of his versatility as a spellcaster.

Wow, forgot the level adjustment was that high for 3.5. I've gotten used to PF, where it's just +2. +8 seems really steep.

[137beth]

Yes, but Durkon is a godless cleric who cast Planar Ally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm), which says "If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment."

Nitpick: "philosophical alignment" may refer to ethical alignment, i.e. Law vs Chaos:smalltongue:

[Jay R]

Love the subtle callback to #7: "Umm ... Could I maybe just get a potion? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html)"

[One Skunk Todd]

Does Vampirism increase Durkon's melee capabilities?
He cleaved somehow in the last strip and now he snapped Z'sneck with his bare hands:smalleek::smallcool:

Look carefully, he snapped Z's neck with his bare "HAND". :)

[zimmerwald1915]

Wow, forgot the level adjustment was that high for 3.5. I've gotten used to PF, where it's just +2. +8 seems really steep.
There is no level adjustment in PF. That +2 the PF Vampire template gives is to CR...the same adjustment to CR the 3.5 Vampire template gives.

[Sylthia]

Nitpick: "philosophical alignment" may refer to ethical alignment, i.e. Law vs Chaos:smalltongue:

Isn't the ethical axis Law vs Chaos, and the moral axis Good vs Evil? So philosophical would be the mixture of the two?

[Pendulous]

He's a high level cleric, he actually gets multiple attacks with the Full Attack maneuver without needing to Cleave. And his Strength and Dexterity are raised, so he is overall a better combatant.
Divine Power and Righteous Might make for an effective melee combatant.

+6 to Strength.

Plus that. Yeah, he's a powerhouse.

[ti'esar]

Wow, forgot the level adjustment was that high for 3.5. I've gotten used to PF, where it's just +2. +8 seems really steep.

I suspect that may be why they changed it. The huge differences between level adjustment and challenge rating have always really puzzled me.

[internisus]

I'm so happy to have him back! Oh, and to be right! This is how I expected things to go back when Durkon was turned.

He will rejoin the Order now, experience a prolonged identity crisis at having become a creature of the undead, his sworn enemy as a cleric, eventually travel to his homeland in this posthumous form along with his friends as a part of their quest (most likely Kraagor's gate is nearby), and, as foretold by Odin, see doom brought to his people once he has returned (most likely in the form of Xykon).

[Jaffo]

Giant fixed a nice little narrative problem here, too.

For most of the comic Durkon has been faithful, reliable, and relatively boring.

Now he's given this cornerstone character a scary new twist.

It's a bit powergamey, but I trust Giant to handle this in an interesting (and funny) way.

[Ulthwithian]

Yes, but Durkon is a godless cleric who cast Planar Ally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm), which says "If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment."

Fair enough. As I said, most everything points to LE, but not 'For the Evulz' LE.

I do think that he'll have plenty to say to the Dwarven Elders. :p

[Snails]

So... where did Nale go? Dimension Door only has a 700ish foot range for Nale's caster level, so he's not totally out of danger yet. He definitely couldn't have gotten back to Bleedingham.

I was sort of expecting Durkon's mental transition to being a vampire to be a much bigger deal. He pretty much seems like "well, okay, whatever". Not sure how I feel about that.

I noticed that, too. But Nale does have access to Invisibilty, so finding him would be quite arduous.

I think the point is that rough viciousness can come easily to evil Durkon, not that his personality is particularly, um, bloodthirsty in character. So he would have killed Nale with relish, he just did not desire and seek that result for personal pleasure.

[Solara]

"Welcome to the deep end of the alignment pool" or something similar I expect.

People keep saying this but I kind of have a feeling Belkar's going to be horrified, or at least feel even guiltier. Durkon not only died saving him but now is walking around as a twisted mockery of everything he believed in. And would it even be funny to make a joke about it the way he did to Haley without the payoff of Durkon feeling ashamed of his approval? Would it even remotely occur to Durkon that snapping a helpless Z's neck could be seen as something to feel bad about?

[Incom]

I note the continued parallel with his "opposite", V. V got taken into hell against his will. And now, Z, has also.

Actually, that's a good point. We know V's soul is trapped with the IFCC, his rival just died and went to an Evil afterlife, Belkar is going to die and also see an Evil afterlife, and there's an argument to be made that Durkon is also in the afterlife (although presumably the LG one), and for that matter Malack is probably also in an Evil afterlife.

What's the chance some of them meet and form a party to take on the IFCC?

[Sylthia]

There is no level adjustment in PF. That +2 the PF Vampire template gives is to CR...the same adjustment to CR the 3.5 Vampire template gives.

True, although a difference of +2 to +8 between CR and LA seems almost incompatible.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Thank God (and Rich) that there aren't going to be any good aligned vampire shenanigans.

[Amphiox]

I'm curious, is there a reason for the choice of 20 minutes other than V's timing? Because any 9th-level cleric can do a Raise Dead in the next week or so and get Z back in the action...unless Durkula decides to do something with the body.

From my first post that started that discussion, I was (not really seriously) speculating about the continuing parallel between Z and V. V just got sent to hell against his will, and now Z has too. Since V gets out of hell in 20 minutes, ergo, if the parallel continues to apply, so will Z.

It is actually not that likely.

[Gnoman]

Hmm. Regarding Durkon's alignment...

First, Word of Giant is that the reason Durkon spontaneously casts Inflict spells is because he's a vampire. That means that it is not necessarily because he's a vampire.


I assume you meant "evil" instead of "a vampire" the second time, else your observation makes no sense. If that is what you meant, I also wondered about that particular phrasing.

[holywhippet]

Woot the d mans back.

Questions for d20 people my D&D skils are 20 years out of date

1. can d learn the protection from sun light spell from the staff ? I assume this was a custom spell of Malack's. if not D's going to have issues pretty fast if they can't find a Rezing cleric in a hurry and that assuming vamp D would just sit there and let himself be beheaded and raised (I assume the vamping gives him some internal motivations not to let that happen.)

2. I assume the harm thing was because of the vamping swaped his spontaneous heals to harms. But next comic day he can fill a chuck of his spell slots with cures right?

1. By RAW a cleric can cast any spell they have access to based on level and alignment. They don't need to seek out new spells like a wizard or pick spells on level up. Provided they are high enough in level to cast it, and it doesn't clash with their alignment, they can cast it. The protection from sun light spell seems to have been a custom creation by Malack which is a bit of a grey area under the rules. Durkon, at his level, could most likely work it out though.

2. By RAW a vampire must be of an evil alignment. Also, by RAW, a cleric of evil alignment can only spontaneously change spells into a level equivalent inflict spell. Hence by being a vampire he can only spontaneously change any spell into an inflict wounds spell. He can still memorise and cast healing spells though. Many cleric PCs (of good alignment) don't memorise them normally because they can switch them out with no penalty.


Aside from dying and being raised, Durkon does have one other option for getting his old alignment back. If they could obtain a helm of opposite alignment it would switch him from good to evil. Thing is, chances are he's lawful evil now and the helm would change him to chaotic good. Provided either has the right feat, either Durkon or V could craft the helm themselves.

[Sylthia]

Actually, that's a good point. We know V's soul is trapped with the IFCC, his rival just died and went to an Evil afterlife, Belkar is going to die and also see an Evil afterlife, and there's an argument to be made that Durkon is also in the afterlife (although presumably the LG one), and for that matter Malack is probably also in an Evil afterlife.

What's the chance some of them meet and form a party to take on the IFCC?

I forget how it works for Vampires, but does Malack as we know him even get an afterlife, or is his soul just destroyed?

[cavalier973]

Ok, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with "evil Durkon", but I chuckled at those last two panels.

[internisus]

I was sort of expecting Durkon's mental transition to being a vampire to be a much bigger deal. He pretty much seems like "well, okay, whatever". Not sure how I feel about that.

I have no doubt that he will undergo quite the existential crisis, but now is not the time for reflection. If anything, his instinct to save his friends before looking to himself demonstrates just how much the old Durkon is still in there.

[Ulthwithian]

Isn't the ethical axis Law vs Chaos, and the moral axis Good vs Evil? So philosophical would be the mixture of the two?

Well, considering that many don't see a difference between ethics and morals...

In any event, it would seem that the practical difference is between ends and means. Good vs. Evil is more Ends-ish than Means-ish, and Law vs. Chaos is the opposite.

So LG seeks to do good through law/society/the group. CG seeks to do good through the individual.

There are many shades here, but the real kicker is that the contemporary period certainly is much better at distinguishing law and chaos than good and evil. :p

[Amphiox]

From our limited evidence, Durkon seems to be at least neutral, if not evil, since he spontaneously inflicts now. He seemed to enjoy slaughtering Z in a Belkaresque way, so maybe he wants to stay in his new alignment. I remember a cursed hat that made your alignment the opposite of what it was and one caveat was that your character would find the idea of switching alignments back abhorrent, and not try to switch back, so this might be a similar issue.

If he were neutral, he would have to choose whether his spells convert to Cure or Inflict, wouldn't he? If he got to choose, then it wouldn't be possible for him to Inflict by mistake as he just did, right?

Wouldn't that pretty much confirm that he is Evil now?

[Gift Jeraff]

Actually, that's a good point. We know V's soul is trapped with the IFCC, his rival just died and went to an Evil afterlife, Belkar is going to die and also see an Evil afterlife, and there's an argument to be made that Durkon is also in the afterlife (although presumably the LG one), and for that matter Malack is probably also in an Evil afterlife.

What's the chance some of them meet and form a party to take on the IFCC?

Huh. 3 dead souls (if Belkar dies), each LE/NE/CE. 3 archfiends, each LE/NE/CE.

[Shale]

Regarding LA versus CR increases, the reason for the difference is probably the fact that a vampire's biggest strength is his ability to create an army of relatively powerful undead that are slaves to his will. When the vampire is an NPC, those thralls/minions, if they're present at all, will get their own CRs that factor into the overall challenge rating of the encounter. No such clause for when PCs get thralls, so it has to be built into the character's ECL.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Great BLAZES! What a comic! Durkon's vampirism has certainly left its mark.

Also, Jon Pertwee is pleased by the choice of title. :smallbiggrin:

[Forikroder]

If he were neutral, he would have to choose whether his spells convert to Cure or Inflict, wouldn't he? If he got to choose, then it wouldn't be possible for him to Inflict by mistake as he just did, right?

Wouldn't that pretty much confirm that he is Evil now?

he himself said hes evil i fail to see how anyone could debate otherwise

[littlebum2002]

Why on earth didn't Durkula take the opportunity to add another competent wizard to the team?

[Amphiox]

I was sort of expecting Durkon's mental transition to being a vampire to be a much bigger deal. He pretty much seems like "well, okay, whatever". Not sure how I feel about that.

Durkon has had a history of hiding his personal mental turmoil from the rest of the Order. (Remember how he acted when he returned to the Order after breaking it off with Hilgya?)

That aspect of Durkon's personality likely has not changed.

It could be quite a big deal/existential crisis but he's just putting on a stoic facade for Roy's benefit.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I forget how it works for Vampires, but does Malack as we know him even get an afterlife, or is his soul just destroyed?

His soul gets sent to purgatory. No, wait, that's Supernatural (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/Supernatural).

Real answer: we don't know. His soul may have been sent to the appropriate afterlife when he was vampirised, or his soul just got released and sent when his body was destroyed. Either way, his soul isn't just destroyed.

Grey Wolf

[Ulthwithian]

If he were neutral, he would have to choose whether his spells convert to Cure or Inflict, wouldn't he? If he got to choose, then it wouldn't be possible for him to Inflict by mistake as he just did, right?

Wouldn't that pretty much confirm that he is Evil now?

Per Word of Giant, Durkon spontaneously casts Inflict spells because he's a vampire, not because he's necessarily evil. So his spontaneous casting is still ambiguous.

(E.g., he could be a LG vampire, and at least RAG says that he'd still spontaneously cast Inflict spells.)

Raising the devil, not so much, as others have pointed out.

[Shale]

Also, Jon Pertwee is pleased by the choice of title. :smallbiggrin:

One day after the arrival of 12, too! Coincidence?

Well, possibly.

[Sylthia]

Great BLAZES! What a comic! Durkon's vampirism has certainly left its mark.

Also, Jon Pertwee is pleased by the choice of title. :smallbiggrin:

I ask Who?

[Amphiox]

I forget how it works for Vampires, but does Malack as we know him even get an afterlife, or is his soul just destroyed?

Perhaps his soul reverts to the soul of the Lizardfolk Shaman he was before he was vampirized, and all his memories and experiences of being a vampire are lost/forgotten (akin to how souls forget their experiences in the Afterlife after being Resurrected?).

[Ulthwithian]

Why on earth didn't Durkula take the opportunity to add another competent wizard to the team?

Because, as Malack's death clearly demonstrates, sometimes that backfires on the team controlling the vampire thrall.

[Sylthia]

Why on earth didn't Durkula take the opportunity to add another competent wizard to the team?

I think he felt he didn't have the time, to just sit there and drain Z, since Nale likely would have interfered, plus time is of the essence, since the Order is in trouble. As well as creating a powerful enemy if Z ever got unthralled.

[Incom]

Huh. 3 dead souls (if Belkar dies), each LE/NE/CE. 3 archfiends, each LE/NE/CE.

Actually, come to think of it, there are probably a lot more. Tsukiko comes to mind. Lots of goblins, including possibly a certain SoD character (though we have yet to see where TDO and the IFCC see each other). Probably some Thieves' Guild members. We still don't know about Thog.

Someone just bumped the Graveyard thread, might as well look those up...

[Vinsfeld]

Dammit, Durkon. I really liked Z :smallfrown:

[Sylthia]

Actually, come to think of it, there are probably a lot more. Tsukiko comes to mind. Lots of goblins, including possibly a certain SoD character (though we have yet to see where TDO and the IFCC see each other). Probably some Thieves' Guild members. We still don't know about Thog.

Someone just bumped the Graveyard thread, might as well look those up...

This seems like it might be the biggest 24 hour period in-comic since the battle for Azure City.

[gamephil]

I ask Who?

I'm sorry, blue means sarcasm or joke, right? Because that's much funnier if not intentional.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think he felt he didn't have the time, to just sit there and drain Z, since Nale likely would have interfered, plus time is of the essence, since the Order is in trouble. As well as creating a powerful enemy if Z ever got unthralled.

Also, a vampire drow would be too sexy for the comic.

[internisus]

It would be quite interesting if, when Belkar inevitably goes to express his regret about Durkon getting killed to save him, Durkon's reply shows a complete indifference towards his vampirism or he actually glories in it because it's made him stronger. That would be a very powerful way to reveal that he actually is evil now.

[Porthos]

You know, Roy was remarkably mellow about meeting Free Willed Durkon. Not nearly as much angst as I was expecting.

Must be that Lawful stoic training at work. :smallwink:

Well that and he already got a lot of his feels out of his system. Still, I think the overall point stands.

[white lancer]

Hmm. That seemed a little bit too easy for Durkula to just waltz right back to join the Order, but I guess I'm going to have to trust that the Giant isn't going to let the vampirism thing slide by THAT easily. I expect much development out of this...development. :D

[endiku]

Awesome update Rich - thank you for what you do!

My prediction

So now Belkar will see that Durkon just incapacitated Roy - he'll attack Durkon and Durkon will kill Belkar...

Meanwhile - The elemental kills Haley - Durkon potions Roy - pounds the elemental into dust - then raises Haley - Belkar is out of luck and ends up dead - for lols they might stuff him into a bag of holding so they can try to raise him later...

:-)

[Forikroder]

Hmm. That seemed a little bit too easy for Durkula to just waltz right back to join the Order, but I guess I'm going to have to trust that the Giant isn't going to let the vampirism thing slide by THAT easily. I expect much development out of this...development. :D

well the order is pretty busy right now

[Mr. Pants]

Zz'dtri was such a pain in the neck, so Durkula snapped his in two to return the favor.

[Mutant Sheep]

Yay Durkon! Sad he didn't thrall Z, but the corpse throwing was awessoooooome.:smallbiggrin:

[MaxTer]

I really enjoyed this comic .

I think Durkon can still prepare cure spells , but he can`t Spontaneous Casting then anymore.

[Thokk_Smash]

You know, Roy was remarkably mellow about meeting Free Willed Durkon. Not nearly as much angst as I was expecting.

Must be that Lawful stoic training at work. :smallwink:

Well that and he already got a lot of his feels out of his system. Still, I think the overall point stands.

Yeah, he's had a lot go on, plus he did already sorta get to say goodbye to Durkon in the phantasm. But like you said, he got it out of his system yelling at Belkar. Roy's pretty solid when he's not surprised.

[Teioh]

Sad Z's gone just as I was starting to really like him, and warming up to the LG's potential. Oh well, Door can't go very far, so hopefully Nale can come back and get Z for a raise. Who can then Sunburst Durkon later in repayment. I'm sure that'll go well with Durk's Reflex score.

[Sylthia]

You know, Roy was remarkably mellow about meeting Free Willed Durkon. Not nearly as much angst as I was expecting.

Must be that Lawful stoic training at work. :smallwink:

Well that and he already got a lot of his feels out of his system. Still, I think the overall point stands.

Maybe if he met him at another time, he would react differently, but likely he wants any help he can get at this point.

[holywhippet]

You know, Roy was remarkably mellow about meeting Free Willed Durkon. Not nearly as much angst as I was expecting.


My thought is that they are currently in the middle of a fight with a freaking huge silicon elemental. Two of their number are in trouble and Durkon appears willing to help. For Roy, worrying about Durkon's alignment or undead status is a lower priority.