How to make a subtly broken character in 3.5/pf?

[aleucard]

These are 2 separate rule sets, but they cross over so much that I can't justify making 2 separate topics for this.

We've all seen PunPun and the like. We've probably even heard about Wish loops before. Maybe even the occasional Time Stop just for classics.

However, what about if the DM running the game isn't a complete chump?

I want to see character builds for 3.5 and/or Pathfinder (don't really care about the mix, I like both) that are significantly more powerful than first glance, and won't get visited by the Nerf fairy on sight, or just plain banned. Here's the qualifiers;

1: No Dips. Dipping is an iconic example of trying to advance on the Tier Ladder, and thus can easily send up red flags from even a newbie DM. The character should have at least 5 levels in each individual class.

2: Maximum of 2 Base Classes multiclassed. Similar to the above, throwing several separate classes into the same pot sets off the alarms for any perceptive DM.

3: Maximum of 1 Prestige Class. Ditto.

4: Maximum of 3 non-core books/resources involved, excepting things such as Spell Compendium and Tome of Feats. Again, requiring a small library to describe your character should be ringing bells for anyone with at least 2 braincells to rub together. Compiled lists of things like Spell Compendium don't count since they are just added functionality, not out-and-out new stuff. It's also assumed and understood that if PLAYERS can pull from these, the DM can too. Unearthed Arcana MIGHT be allowed, but any argument to allow it has to be included.

5: No PunPun or similar iconic gamebreakers, or obvious variations thereof. This is trying something new and interesting, NOT putting a new coat of paint on something that's got almost as much collective use as your standard porta-potty, and stinks just as badly to any knowledgable dnd player, let alone DM.

These rules are subject to change if something strikes out as too obvious or someone makes a good argument for a change. Otherwise, have fun. :smallsmile:


EDIT: This section contains the rules that have been added after the topic's creation. They don't apply to posts from before it was named in a post by me.

Rule 6: Classes that are inherently tier 2 or 1 even if only given the resources in the book they show up in plus core are not allowed in any capacity except one that drops it below those levels. If I wanted a list of broken classes, I'd go find one.

[EyethatBinds]

Druid, Augment Summoning, Animal Growth.

[Namfuak]

Probably the prestige class rule could be changed to "You have to complete any prestige class you enter before taking another class." That said, Full Caster 20 is generally considered pretty broken.

[sonofzeal]

If your DM has good book-lore, it's almost not worth trying because they can probably spot your trick once they've got your charsheet in hand with only a little research. It's far easier to recognize brokenness than it is to find it.

If your DM doesn't have good book-lore.... Planar Sheppard?

[Segev]

At what point is it acceptable that your "trick" should be known? Is "the first time I use it, he realizes just what I've done" acceptable, or are we looking for something that will win repeatedly and, only after a few encounters wherein you don't seem threatened nor do have difficulty, will the DM realize something's "up?"

If the former, the chaingunning launch bolt wizard ramps up relatively slowly and innocently, though it requires some feats that will seem "dead" if you take them in such a way as to get there ASAP. But as soon as you have Arcane Thesis: Launch Bolt, he's going to suspect something is up, and he'll know it the moment you launch a 9d8+9 attack with a 3rd level spell slot at 6th character level.

(Or, if you've been planning carefully and "innocently" playing to your schtick of liking crossbows without tipping him off, you could do even worse with your specialized ammo.)

[aleucard]

Probably the prestige class rule could be changed to "You have to complete any prestige class you enter before taking another class." That said, Full Caster 20 is generally considered pretty broken.

This makes me think of another potential rule.

Rule 6: Classes that are inherently tier 2 or 1 even if only given the resources in the book they show up in plus core are not allowed in any capacity except one that drops it below those levels. If I wanted a list of broken classes, I'd go find one.

[aleucard]

At what point is it acceptable that your "trick" should be known? Is "the first time I use it, he realizes just what I've done" acceptable, or are we looking for something that will win repeatedly and, only after a few encounters wherein you don't seem threatened nor do have difficulty, will the DM realize something's "up?"

If the former, the chaingunning launch bolt wizard ramps up relatively slowly and innocently, though it requires some feats that will seem "dead" if you take them in such a way as to get there ASAP. But as soon as you have Arcane Thesis: Launch Bolt, he's going to suspect something is up, and he'll know it the moment you launch a 9d8+9 attack with a 3rd level spell slot at 6th character level.

(Or, if you've been planning carefully and "innocently" playing to your schtick of liking crossbows without tipping him off, you could do even worse with your specialized ammo.)

I prefer the second, but the first is also viable. However, if it's something that can be rattled off by rote memory, it likely falls under Rule 5, so bear in mind.

[Psyren]

You know, if you have the kind of players that are out to "win D&D," they will attempt to do so no matter how many restrictions you place on the game. Thousands of people use wizards and clerics every day without ruining anyone else's fun.

[aleucard]

You know, if you have the kind of players that are out to "win D&D," they will attempt to do so no matter how many restrictions you place on the game. Thousands of people use wizards and clerics every day without ruining anyone else's fun.

True, but I'm wanting to add a degree of difficulty and fun to it. Any idiot can follow a template, but what about the things that are only broken when done in JUST the right way, or done with otherwise suboptimal characters? I'm trying to see what our minmaxer crew here can do with a little boxing.

[VariSami]

And once you manage to break the game, then what? Really, while I appreciate theoretical optimization, it should never be taken to the game tables for a simple reason: D&D is not about winning with combo (using CCG terminology). Once you manage to pull infinite loops with something like the Idiot Crusader, the game ends. Nothing the DM can dream up could do anything as long as he actually sticks to the rules. Then again, he can just tell you to pike it.

(In my current group, there is a MtG player that enjoys combo and I know for a fact that he browses optimization forums. At the moment, I fear that he is trying to pull an Idiot Crusader on me - but also kind of await the moment when he does and I can show him, not merely tell him (as I have been doing), how he has ruined the game for everyone.)

[Rebel7284]

War Weaver/Spellguard of Silverymoon can take someone by surprise. "Oh, they are just a buffer." "Oh, they just cast a touch range tenser's transformation on the enemy wizard."

You can put it on a lower tier caster and it will still be good. :)

[Segev]

The issue is that there's a bit of self-shifting goalpost in the challenge. We don't have a good definition of "too obvious," and flat-out banning straight-class builds because "tier 1 or 2 is too obvious" is...well. Now we're getting to the point that splashing is the only way to access those, and some of them ARE iconic, but we're running into "no splashing" rules.

This challenge may be best broken into specific party-role categories, or looking for whole-party builds designed to "look the part" of a classic D&D adventuring party, depending on how you want to really see this done.

The most terrifying optimization - barring pure theorycraft like Pun-Pun - is rarely the one overpowering PC, but rather the whole party wherein some of them may well be quite sub-optimal on their own, but they work together to crush everything in their path.

...in fact, I think I'd love to see a contest phrased something like, "Build the most optimal four-man party you think a DM would allow at a table, assuming it is to be played 1-20." Because that would be a real exercise in creative theory-craft with some practical application when it's done.

[Tokiko Mima]

How about you become the nerf fairy?

Pixie Warlock 13/Hellfire Warlock 3

Take Quicken SLA, Empower SLA and Maximize SLA feats when they become available and apply them to your Eldritch Blast. Other than Warlock itself (in Complete Arcane), the only other source you'll want is Dragon Magic for the Eldritch Glaive invocation.

It sounds harmless, right? If you do the math on a hit with your Glaive though, you can one-hit annihilate just about anything once or twice per day. And you're constantly invisible and hard to hit and damage. Most of the time you'll be sitting back, plinking away at foes from afar for low/moderate damage. Therefore it will be rather surprising when you take out your ace card and instantly/savagely maul a dragon to death with it.

[Segev]

Glaivelock/Cleric/Eldrich Theurge can surprise people without stealing the spotlight, too, if the DM isn't aware of the particular problem. I know it's one that can surprise, because I stumbled on it unexpectedly when I was thinking about perfectly innocent builds.

The trick is Eldrich Theurge's healing blast. It's moderately impressive in-combat healing at range. Eldrich Glaive lets you full attack with it. Divine Power and a wizard's friendly Haste and you've got more attacks per round at multi-d6 healing per attack. Stand behind your party tank and watch your enemies cry as your followers (who you bring along just for this purpose) shout, "Go Team Cleric!"

[Psyren]

I think you mean Eldritch Disciple. Also, be advised that each heal burns a turn attempt (or "ability use" if you're using the adaptation.)

[Segev]

Hm, I'd forgotten that. I think you can get away with one Turn per full attack, at least, as I THINK the "Eldrich Glaive" counts as a single invocation. Sadly, if you read Nightsticks as I do (thus, being rods, requiring them to be in-hand), you can't use them to extend that any.

[Psyren]

Rods are a point of contention; they alternate between "wield" and "possess" when determining how you use them and it generally isn't clear.

[Occasional Sage]

Peruse the Iron Chef and Zinc Saucier threads; sounds like you'll find what you want in the high-originality and -elegance builds.

[Madara]

Well, Runesmith is fairly obscure, gives low level entry, and gives an SLA. SLA's are wonderful to abuse. Problem being you need Heavy Armor Proficiency, so that's what you spend your multiclass on: Cleric.

[aleucard]

Glaivelock/Cleric/Eldrich Theurge can surprise people without stealing the spotlight, too, if the DM isn't aware of the particular problem. I know it's one that can surprise, because I stumbled on it unexpectedly when I was thinking about perfectly innocent builds.

The trick is Eldrich Theurge's healing blast. It's moderately impressive in-combat healing at range. Eldrich Glaive lets you full attack with it. Divine Power and a wizard's friendly Haste and you've got more attacks per round at multi-d6 healing per attack. Stand behind your party tank and watch your enemies cry as your followers (who you bring along just for this purpose) shout, "Go Team Cleric!"

This makes me want to have someone play it and say right before a major encounter in a German accent, "Let's go practice medicine." Bonus points if you get the reference. I like it, AND it doesn't steal the show to boot!

[Cheiromancer]

There is definitely some shifting of the goal-posts in the original post. I would prefer to think of it from the DM's point of view; how to reward good, creative character design and wise use of resources without letting the campaign be destroyed by an over-powered PC.

So a big part of that will be player style. If a player tends to hold back and let others share the spotlight, but always has a way to save the day, that is great. If I have miscalculated and am about to inflict a TPK on the party, I will be very appreciative of someone who can save my (and the party's) bacon. Conversely, if someone makes me feel like my work in designing a challenge is a total waste of time, and makes every other player feel useless... well, then there's a big problem.

The Subtly Broken Character should not be a one-trick pony. That's boring. They shouldn't be invincible and unthreatenable. That's also boring.

Their tricks should not rest on ambiguous rules. If someone chooses Arcane Thesis: Launch Bolt I am going to read the text of launch bolt very carefully, and probably google it to see what the player is up to. And there are a lot of ambiguities with the spell, easily enough to rule out the eschewed materials/colossal bolt mechanism. This issue has already been discussed elsewhere- it's just an example.

Their tricks should not rest on obvious oversights in the text. The one that comes to mind is the way that wish has a gp limit for mundane items but not magical items. That is just silly.

Some rules-subsets are known to be broken. Breaking wbl with wall of iron + fabricate is something I would frown upon. Or breaking the diplomacy rules.

However, even an area that is known to be broken might be played well by a certain sort of player. I had one player who could always be trusted with a ring of wishes; he was never too greedy, his wishes were always reasonable, and there was never any problem. He was not a spellcaster, but I think he could have been trusted with wildshape and polymorph, too.

So probably the best way to make a SBC is to give him or her a limited supply of broken abilities. A scroll of polymorph any object in a 10th level group. Or talisman of pure good. Or a ring of wishes. Not a trick the SBC can use every encounter, but one that could save the bacon in case of serious emergency.

[Nettlekid]

War Weaver/Spellguard of Silverymoon can take someone by surprise. "Oh, they are just a buffer." "Oh, they just cast a touch range tenser's transformation on the enemy wizard."

You can put it on a lower tier caster and it will still be good. :)

I sort of second this, but not for the same reason. Yeah, you could use it as a debuffer, but I wouldn't be upset with the DM for saying that Spellguard can only be used on a willing target, just based on fluff and flavor and intent. However, it's still phenomenally powerful, especially with War Weaver (all your Personal spells can become Close Range to all your allies). If you start out the game by saying "I'm a Bard! I want to help people be stronger!" then your DM hardly has reason to complain, because you're doing what a Bard does, and let's face it, you're a BARD. It's likely he'll think you'll be underpowered. But then you drop your Quiescent Weave, making your allies immune to basically everything. You start whipping up a Dragonfire Inspiration to give your allies like +8d6 damage to every attack. Your allies won't see you as overpowered, because they'll feel satisfied that they're doing the damage. But all the strength is yours. And that, I think, is subtly broken.

[Suddo]

In 3.5 Dragon Fire Inspiration Bard. You can also use Warchanter and other things to allow you to sing multiple songs though straight 20 bard will be fine. Build it to be an awesome face and bam you're done. This works less in a PF situation because of the limit/round thing but then again lingersong may allow this to be a moot point.

[Talionis]

...in fact, I think I'd love to see a contest phrased something like, "Build the most optimal four-man party you think a DM would allow at a table, assuming it is to be played 1-20." Because that would be a real exercise in creative theory-craft with some practical application when it's done.

Well said above.

I often play characters with what I would consider to be unfair combos, that I never use. I keep them as "Oh Shoot!" buttons for if I ever thought that my DM was doing something completely unfair. But whole campaigns, I've just not used my OP stuff and just played nice to stay on the same level as other people playing. Some DM's knew I could the OP stuff and appreciated my discretion, others didn't but we still had fun.

But I agree, that op of the thread has put everyone in a very subjective position when we don't know the particular DM. We also don't know what the other players are playing.

But anything described here would probably end the game. Once the genie is out of the bottle the game won't be fun. If the DM doesn't know you can do it, and you do it and it's well above the power level of the campaign and other player characters. Most DM's would by fiat blow the game up or kill your character and make you roll a knew character.

The good question is finding a balance of power level between several characters and still leave the DM room to create real challenges for the group that would be fun for everyone.
The

[RFLS]

Honestly, a Sword of the Arcane Order Mystic Ranger is a really, really solid character that kinda comes under the radar. In fact, something I've been itching to try is Wizard 1/Spellthief 1/Mystic Ranger X. Pick up the Favored Enemy: Arcanists ability, SotAO and Master Spellthief, and go nuts.

EDIT: Totally forgot that you need to use the Shooting Star substitution levels as well.

[huttj509]

Well said above.

I often play characters with what I would consider to be unfair combos, that I never use. I keep them as "Oh Shoot!" buttons for if I ever thought that my DM was doing something completely unfair. But whole campaigns, I've just not used my OP stuff and just played nice to stay on the same level as other people playing. Some DM's knew I could the OP stuff and appreciated my discretion, others didn't but we still had fun.


Or "things just got real bad, and the DM has that 'I did not plan for this fight to be this hard, I misjudged something' look in his eye" and you can be your own Deus Ex Machina.

[Talionis]

Or "things just got real bad, and the DM has that 'I did not plan for this fight to be this hard, I misjudged something' look in his eye" and you can be your own Deus Ex Machina.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply ill intent on the part of the DM, although I've seen and played through some of that.

Of course once you use your big gun, it always changes the game. How depends on the DM.

[Skrobo]

Most subtle class is an Evocation specialised wizard. Everything will be like "Ye, magic missiles and fireballs. Whatever", and when the need arises, you will blast them with a gazilion other spells.

[RFLS]

Most subtle class is an Evocation specialised wizard. Everything will be like "Ye, magic missiles and fireballs. Whatever", and when the need arises, you will blast them with a gazilion other spells.

Pretty sure the recommendation for utter mayhem should have been in blue text.

[AttilaTheGeek]

...in fact, I think I'd love to see a contest phrased something like, "Build the most optimal four-man party you think a DM would allow at a table, assuming it is to be played 1-20." Because that would be a real exercise in creative theory-craft with some practical application when it's done.

Actually... Let me put that up. I want to see what people's answers are.

Edit: done (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15768639).