The laws of the comic require V to die.

[theinsulabot]

We know that a personal rival is required to be at the same level or higher then his good aligned enemy. Therefor, since Z just died, since a true resurrection is unlikely, he will lose a level upon his raise and thus V must also die and lose a level to compensate!

[JennTora]

Or Z will stay dead...

[Manga Shoggoth]

By that logic, Haley is already dead...

[theinsulabot]

Haley killed her rival though.

[prism6691]

Hey here is an interesting idea, if V did die would the fiends be required to take the time they are owed immediately? Like could V kill herself to make the fiends take the time they are owed so she could be then raised without running the risk of them doing this to her soul again in a crisis?

[Lvl45DM!]

Hey here is an interesting idea, if V did die would the fiends be required to take the time they are owed immediately? Like could V kill herself to make the fiends take the time they are owed so she could be then raised without running the risk of them doing this to her soul again in a crisis?

Thats a way better topic!
I would say no since they have eternity to wait to see if s/he ever gets resurrected, and taking control of a damned soul is pointless (they already have control). BUT! If V went to a NN afterlife they could take control to see NN's defenses! BUT!! There is evidence that Leaving your afterlife causes memory loss!!

[Olinser]

Hey here is an interesting idea, if V did die would the fiends be required to take the time they are owed immediately? Like could V kill herself to make the fiends take the time they are owed so she could be then raised without running the risk of them doing this to her soul again in a crisis?

Since it appears that the fiends can choose exactly when they take their allotted time, I see no reason death would suddenly force them to use it.

If they can choose, they gain nothing by using it immediately, and everything by simply waiting for V to be raised.

YMMV, but also, while V acknowledges that the Familicide was an act of total Evil, s/he hasn't really DONE anything about it. The fiends seemed to think they had a pretty good chance of getting V's eternal soul as it stood, and V hasn't really done anything since then to change that.

[F.Harr]

Z's the nemisis. V's the protagonist.

[prism6691]

Since it appears that the fiends can choose exactly when they take their allotted time, I see no reason death would suddenly force them to use it.

If they can choose, they gain nothing by using it immediately, and everything by simply waiting for V to be raised.

YMMV, but also, while V acknowledges that the Familicide was an act of total Evil, s/he hasn't really DONE anything about it. The fiends seemed to think they had a pretty good chance of getting V's eternal soul as it stood, and V hasn't really done anything since then to change that.

Yes but I remember when Darth V was fighting Xykon the IFCC said if she died it would all be a waste. That implied they couldn't use the time later, even if she was resurrected at some point. That is what I thought anyway. Perhaps they were confident she couldn't get raised by any means if she died there.

[Sylian]

BUT! If V went to a NN afterlife they could take control to see NN's defenses!Except that they didn't actually possess V, they just brought V's soul to another plane.

[SowZ]

Yes but I remember when Darth V was fighting Xykon the IFCC said if she died it would all be a waste. That implied they couldn't use the time later, even if she was resurrected at some point. That is what I thought anyway. Perhaps they were confident she couldn't get raised by any means if she died there.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they just meant the latter point. Who would raise V? V was a pretty powerful threat. I'm pretty sure Xykon wouldn't allow V to get raised. They probably expected Xykon to soul bind V to prevent her from being resurrected. (Which would keep them from using their time, incidentally. Not that it would be worth anything if V was dead.)

[Olinser]

Yes but I remember when Darth V was fighting Xykon the IFCC said if she died it would all be a waste. That implied they couldn't use the time later, even if she was resurrected at some point. That is what I thought anyway. Perhaps they were confident she couldn't get raised by any means if she died there.

He was probably referring to the fact that if Xykon personally killed them, the chances of the OOTS getting ahold of the body to Resurrect V were somewhere between zero and none (not to mention Xykon was pissed off enough to go for Soul Bind).

The IFCC's advantage comes from the fact that they can essentially choose 2 more combats to make V functionally useless in. If V is already dead, taking hir soul doesn't really do anything but harass V. It certainly doesn't help them with their plan for the Gates (whatever that is).

[Scurvy Cur]

And that actually makes me suspect there may not be an inbound resurrection for Z. It all depends on how Rich wants to write it, mind, and I could be way off-mark here, but bear with me:

One of the major aspects of V's character growth lately has been his coming to terms with the fact that his Phenomenal Cosmic Power (tm) is not the right answer to every problem, and a growing humility in dealing with events in his life. It might be that one step on that journey for V is letting go of the need, both as a character and from a drama standpoint, to personally vanquish his nemesis. If V can get to the point he's not phased by the comment "Vampire beat me, not you", we have a sign that he has made lots of progress from his personal low point of strip 634, where he would rather take the soul splice than accept that he needed his friends and associates to solve his problems.

[Snails]

V already defeated Z, by clever means that involved character growth. It is hardly necessary for V to do that again, if s/he is ready for bigger fish instead.

[JennTora]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they just meant the latter point. Who would raise V? V was a pretty powerful threat. I'm pretty sure Xykon wouldn't allow V to get raised. They probably expected Xykon to soul bind V to prevent her from being resurrected. (Which would keep them from using their time, incidentally.

I seriously doubt that, they probably have spells that could get V's soul unbound. They can surely get his soul if they really wanted it at that point. If v died though, the order wouldn't be able to save her because cloister, so they probably wouldn't bother.

[ORione]

If we choose to define "death" as our spirit being trapped in the Afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html), then Vaarsuvius is already dead.

[Xelbiuj]

Haley, Belkar(a few times), possibly Roy . . .

[Lvl45DM!]

Except that they didn't actually possess V, they just brought V's soul to another plane.

Yes I chose my words poorly. They can take V and read her mind/soul or torture V for the intel is what I meant. One step closer to heaven really.

[SowZ]

I seriously doubt that, they probably have spells that could get V's soul unbound. They can surely get his soul if they really wanted it at that point. If v died though, the order wouldn't be able to save her because cloister, so they probably wouldn't bother.

Maybe, but freeing Vs soul may be more direct interference than they are comfortable with. Even if the IFCC could free the soul, soul bind is relevant in that if Vs soul was trapped the Order would be unable to even True Rez her. If the Order gave up on rezzing V, the IFCC would probably bet on a different horse. Maybe they'd try and get Belkar in their pocket or something? Though he would admittedly be a loose cannon to work with.

[Kish]

Haley killed her rival though.
And?

Your base claim doesn't say anything about "unless the protagonist personally kills the rival."

Also, Vaarsuvius isn't good-aligned.

Also, I doubt Zz'dtri is coming back at any level.

[Olinser]

And?

Your base claim doesn't say anything about "unless the protagonist personally kills the rival."

Also, Vaarsuvius isn't good-aligned.

Also, I doubt Zz'dtri is coming back at any level.

I dunno, having Z offed like that was very sudden, and given his proven loyalty to Nale I'd be surprised if Nale didn't figure out a way to bring him back.

Nale certainly doesn't have enough high-level minions that he can afford to just discard them like that, if he has any way to bring Z back.

[Snails]

I dunno, having Z offed like that was very sudden, and given his proven loyalty to Nale I'd be surprised if Nale didn't figure out a way to bring him back.

Nale certainly doesn't have enough high-level minions that he can afford to just discard them like that, if he has any way to bring Z back.

Tarquin has high-level associates. This puts Nale conveniently under the thumb of Tarquin, if Nale wants to continue the Gate quest.

Since Nale presumably saw and can recognize Team Evil from a distance, he knows they are on the move and has little time to recruit replacements.

[Klear]

I dunno, having Z offed like that was very sudden, and given his proven loyalty to Nale I'd be surprised if Nale didn't figure out a way to bring him back.

Nale certainly doesn't have enough high-level minions that he can afford to just discard them like that, if he has any way to bring Z back.

Sure. After all, if Lg was to lose a high level vampire cleric, they'd still have a spare... wait.. oops!

j/k, they could likely have him resurrected by other means, but I still don't think it will come to that.

BTW, Linear Guild is vanishing right in front of our eyes: this incarnation included Z, Quar, and Malack are gone, Thog is unknown, Sabine is out of action, which leaves (unless I'm forgetting something) Nale, Tarquin, and his accountant. And possibly Thog, but who knows. That's pretty rough.

[NerdyKris]

BTW, Linear Guild is vanishing right in front of our eyes: this incarnation included Z, Quar, and Malack are gone, Thog is unknown, Sabine is out of action, which leaves (unless I'm forgetting something) Nale, Tarquin, and his accountant. And possibly Thog, but who knows. That's pretty rough.

Indeed. I was expecting Tarquin and Nale to continue to plague the Order at the final gate. But now it looks like something final is going to happen. But the big question is what is going to happen. Tarquin simply can't walk off the stage now and show up in the epilogue. Elan has a plan that needs to be put in place. What is Tarquin's role going to be going forward, and where does Nale fit into this?

Heck, is Nale just going to Dimension Door all the way back to the Empire of Blood?

[Sir_Leorik]

This is ridiculous. Belkar's killed his Kobold adversary, and had a two others snuffed by adventurers and Zz'Ditri, respectively. Haley killed Crystal. Durkon killed all those Treants. There is no rule that when a character's personal rival dies, they die.

The rule is: if a PC has a personal rival, every time the PC levels, the rival levels. That's in addition to any XP the rival earns on his or her own.

Now stop all this foolish talk, especially since V's personal nemesis was clearly not Zz'Ditri, it was the Ancient Black Dragon. :smallbiggrin:

[BroomGuys]

Yes but I remember when Darth V was fighting Xykon the IFCC said if she died it would all be a waste. That implied they couldn't use the time later, even if she was resurrected at some point. That is what I thought anyway. Perhaps they were confident she couldn't get raised by any means if she died there.

SoD spoiler: Given what Xykon did to Lirian and Dorukan,

I presume the IFCC just figured the Evil Epic Sorcerer Lich would find a way of preventing V from being resurrected.

Edit: I really need to check for ninjas before I post.

[Vinsfeld]

Does that mean that Belkar already died several times?

[Fish]

We know that a personal rival is required to be at the same level or higher then his good aligned enemy.
Mm-hmm. And what method did that take? When the main character was a level ahead of the rival, did the main character die?

No. Crystal was sitting around playing cards, when she suddenly dinged a level. The rival moved up.

Therefore, the laws of the comic do not require V to die; instead, they do for Z to be reborn, and ding a level. If you assume these to be invioble, immutable laws at all (which I don't -- if these were laws, Belkar would have dinged a level while incapacitated due to roleplaying XP).

[RadagastTheBrow]

I seriously doubt that, they probably have spells that could get V's soul unbound. They can surely get his soul if they really wanted it at that point.

:elan:FREEDOM!!!!!!!!! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedom.htm)

Okay, darn, it doesn't actually say that would work against Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm). Oh, well.:vaarsuvius:

[Demolator]

To be honest, I think it'd be okay if V died. Maybe she could even destroy the IFCC if she stayed down there. Somehow.

[DaveMcW]

To be honest, I think it'd be okay if V died. Maybe she could even destroy the IFCC if she stayed down there. Somehow.

The typical way for a being in the lower planes to defeat their superiors is to become more evil than them. Which is not really a victory for the good guys.

[GSFB]

Ordinarily, the death of Z by someone other than V would mean V also has to die... BUT! Remember, the IFCC has V in a safety cocoon, and Z died while V is still in it. Therefore, V lives on through a technicality.

/thread winner.

;-)

[davidbofinger]

Belkar killed lots of personal rivals (kobolds) and they were replaced.
Haley killed a personal rival (Crystal) but already had a second (Sabine) to oppose her.
Roy defeated at least one personal rival (Thog) and maybe a second (Miko) but has no obvious replacement - Xykon doesn't have the symmetry to count.
Elan has Nale as a rival but hasn't permanently defeated him yet.


Hard to say there's a clear pattern there, so narratively I'd say The Giant has plenty of options without breaking his own pattern.

It's late to introduce a new rival for V but if there is to be one then Tarquin's ally the IOUN stone wizard is the only obvious candidate.

[Manga Shoggoth]

It is also worth noting that (in-comic) there are only two people who are described as "Personal Rivals" at all:


Crystal herself.
Sabine (and this is on very shaky grounds - it is Belkar mentioning this in an attempt to upset Crystal. Also he used the phrase "Arch Nemisis").


All the other examples in this thread are "Evil Opposites" - which was the Linear Guild's main shtick.

[Klear]

It is also worth noting that (in-comic) there are only two people who are described as "Personal Rivals" at all:


Crystal herself.
Sabine (and this is on very shaky grounds - it is Belkar mentioning this in an attempt to upset Crystal. Also he used the phrase "Arch Nemisis").


All the other examples in this thread are "Evil Opposites" - which was the Linear Guild's main shtick.

Agreed. For example, the kobolds definitely don't count as nemeses for Belkar. You need to share some history for that.

I'd say Xykon is a nemesis for Roy, though I wouldn't call him a rival.

Elan - Nale fits perfectly.

[Jay R]

By that logic, Haley is already dead...Haley killed her rival though.

Haley already has another one of those, and she's a LOT hotter than Crystal was (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html).

And Belkar seems to go through them with astonishing ease.

So really, all Vaarsuvius needs is some sort of arch-nemesis (or set of three arch-nemeses) who would be more important than Zz'dtri was.

[Fish]

All the other examples in this thread are "Evil Opposites" - which was the Linear Guild's main shtick.
Yep.

Pompey was at wizard a school with Roy's sister. I'm not sure what his projected level is, but I doubt it was on par with V.

[Ill Made Knight]

Right after V is taken by lawyers...

Seriously, Z isn't even really V's rival, he's barely been in the comic, and V barely thought about him or interacted with him in their year and more of adventuring. This rival linkage thing, based on one lame joke involving Crystal, must stop.