Replacing all spellcasters with Artificer

[DMVerdandi]

I had an idea today. How would 3.5 function if all the spellcasters were replaced with artificers? Take a journey with me.

The World of Artifice

1. A high fantasy world that achieves wonders with magic, but magic can only be found in physical items. The idea of spellcasters that can perform feats of arcane amazement without a material foundation don't exist.

2. While Artificers are seen as productive and precious resources, there are martial classes and expert classes which have adventurous roles as well.

3. Schools of magic are not reflective of an actual class that grants them, but of a philosophical paradigm created by artificers. "Wizard spells" are spells that are grouped into an ideal of an artificer that concerns himself with eldritch physics, while "cleric spells" are grouped into a school of thought where the body and soul take precedent. Beguiler spells are those simply meant to beguile. There is no actual "beguiler class":smallwink:

4. Magic items are integral to the world and widespread, with people across classes all using and benefitting from them.

5.The idea that building a magic item actually drains an individual past that of a vigorous exercise is absurd. Crafting magic items INCREASES XP.

6.Many classes will essentially take a moment to learn the fundamental abilities of the artificer, "dipping for a level" so that they can benefit from the ability of "Item Creation", and the skills of use magic/psionic device.
However, the skill that they make magic items pales in comparison to that of the true artificer, whom masters his respective class.

7.Only supernatural creatures, monsters have abilities similar to the magic in magic items without actually wielding them. Some have "spell like abilities", and even "spell slots", where their monsterous and strange natures allow them to use their bodies as material foundations for spells, something not possible with adventurers in the world of artifice.

8. Far past a material item economy, Artifice operates on a wealth system, where one's own credit, importance, social capital, and career path dictate what items one can afford, and the accessibility. While magic items saturate the world of artifice, one must clear the proper channels to obtain them, with some items even being sold on the "black market" to bypass general regulation.




Would that sound like an interesting game to play?
What you you all think?


I think it could definitely add a lot more importance to skills and adventurers.
My idea of my own personal world (As this is more a set of houserules, than an actual setting), would look something like a sci-fi setting. Eberron on crack essentially. Rather than getting too steampunky, I think the digital aesthetic would prevail, as hard light hollograms, flying vehicles and impossible clothing would become a thing of the present.
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/262/f/6/f6ec7a1302855d64927fa757b7ed9dac-d4aagve.jpg

A magical metropolitan world, filled with city-states that just cannot seem to cure itself of a monster problem.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Interesting. Could be fun, although I worry about the "crafting magic items GIVES you experience," at least from the perspective of PCs.

Where do you draw the "spellcaster" line? Do warlocks exist? Psionics? Incarnum? How 'bout the supernatural ToB schools?

[Urpriest]

Definitely an interesting aesthetic. You'd want to radically expand the range of PrCs available and useful to Artificers to make this viable though, including at least some gish PrCs.

[Eldan]

The problem is, by this system, that artificers are the most powerful characters by miles and miles. And with your Xp rules, they even level in their downtime between adventures.

Having an artificer, or better two, in your group becomes absolutely essential, and everyone else is mainly there to provide more slots to equip items into.

You'd also have to put hard limits on what monsters are playable by the players.

[cerin616]

The problem is, by this system, that artificers are the most powerful characters by miles and miles. And with your Xp rules, they even level in their downtime between adventures.


As opposed to the current system where


The problem is, by this system, that Wizards are the most powerful characters by miles and miles. And with your Xp rules, they even level in their downtime between adventures.

[DMVerdandi]

Interesting. Could be fun, although I worry about the "crafting magic items GIVES you experience," at least from the perspective of PCs.

Where do you draw the "spellcaster" line? Do warlocks exist? Psionics? Incarnum? How 'bout the supernatural ToB schools?

As far as where this all goes, I would say that the actual crafting of items generally doesn't give more exp than roughly 3/4's what is required to make it in the normal setting. My reasoning behind it is that if Artificers are working away in the shop all the time, exactly how do they gain experience? By doing just that thing that makes them artificers, tinkering.

This way, you can have an artificer that hardly knows anything about dungeoneering, but plenty about wandcraft.


I am drawing it pretty deep in the sand. One can use both psionics and Incarnum through item use, so Id prefer if it was the exclusive class for really strong supernatural effects. Other SU effects can simply be other energies not related to magic.
For purposes of coheesiveness, psionics will be taken over, and incarnum is to close with the whole spirit armor thing. Ki can be fine, but it can never be explained as magic.






Definitely an interesting aesthetic. You'd want to radically expand the range of PrCs available and useful to Artificers to make this viable though, including at least some gish PrCs.
Absolutely.
I think for ease a low homebrewing level could simply take artificer level and mix it with caster level, so that all of the classes that spellcasters, psions, and incarnum users could get are in their access.
That could run into some problems however, so having maybe 10 new artificer PRCS (Five 5 level classes/Five 10 level classes) could work out very well.





The problem is, by this system, that artificers are the most powerful characters by miles and miles. And with your Xp rules, they even level in their downtime between adventures.

Having an artificer, or better two, in your group becomes absolutely essential, and everyone else is mainly there to provide more slots to equip items into.

You'd also have to put hard limits on what monsters are playable by the players.
They would be stronger than spellcasters in the normal games, BUT, the fact that Use Magic Device would be more prevalent than actual caster levels equals out the playing field some. One doesn't quest to find the magic sword, the magic sword is given to the quester before he even goes out. Since this would be a highly saturated magic item economy, the idea that one gets lucky to find the gadget that he or she needs is not as prevalent.

The real idea is to get everyone to have at least a level or two in artificer. For it to become commonplace. Casting is no longer contingent on spellcaster level, but on level of UMD purchased.

A 20th level fighter is going to be a competent magic item user so long as he keeps his UMD up, but in a party, perhaps the best at it will be a rogue, or a barbarian who keeps his up. The important thing is that magic use is put in the hands of those who are good at the skill of using the items, rather than a casting minority.

Yes, Artificers use the items the best, but if they don't NEED to adventure to gain experience, many of them won't. One could have a party full of warblades, each taking style of fighting they find to be their aptitude, and perhaps a style of magic that they take most interest in, and playing out those roles.

Since the magic items themselves are static, and not dynamic, you won't find even an artificer rapidly changing what they can do at the same pace as a wizard or cleric, as what they can do is dependent on what items they have on their persons.


Eternal wands and schema will generally be more prevalent as having a excess of wands and scrolls that do the same thing would be silly in my opinion.

Finally, using a wealth system (ala d20 modern) allows for purchasing power to be quick and easy, while not allowing for hording, as buying over one's WL can cause a drop in wealth.
Generally a system for how many of one type of item can be purchased would be worked out, as well as a trading scheme.

[Cheiromancer]

I like the idea of gaining xp from making items. I don't think it would make PC's any less likely to play. You can only earn 25 xp per day making items, and that's only if you have thousands of gp. You'd have to adventure to get the treasure.

With 1 xp = 5 gp, an item should cost 90% the market value in materials, and earn 1/25 the value of the item in xp. That's if items are commissioned for sale. I believe the price for selling items "on spec" is 50% the market price; you can't make money even using existing rules. It is likely that much of the 10% profit would be used up just by regular living expenses.

[Talionis]

I like the idea a lot. I actually think it fixes some of the balancing problem left by casters.

Artificers can still be tier zero. Be fair warned. I'm not sure how you nerf that other than agreement with players playing artificers.

Do you envision every party having an artificer? Do you think the Artificer just stays at home crafting and pays for items with the sale of his items? Do you envision Gish characters using levels of artificer or simply using UMD?

In general, you maybe better off eliminating all casting and rely more heavily on UMD, but something to look at is how much wealth you give characters per level, because without casters you go through more consumable magic and might need more every so often magical items.

I don't know if you need to so futuristic. You may want 2099, but I think you can do Tippyverse, high magic from artifice technology.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't know if you need to so futuristic. You may want 2099, but I think you can do Tippyverse, high magic from artifice technology.
The Tippyverse has always sounded pretty futuristic to me. Teleport stations, fabricators, robot armies... just a spelljammer away from Star Trek.

[Twilightwyrm]

While I'm a bit iffy about the idea of Artificers gaining some set amount of experience from crafting magic items, the general idea of this universe is an intriguing one.

One thing you might want to do is give UMD to everyone as a class skill. This really only makes sense thematically, given how important it would be to this society, but also because there are precious few non-spellcasting classes that actually have it.

[Talionis]

The Tippyverse has always sounded pretty futuristic to me. Teleport stations, fabricators, robot armies... just a spelljammer away from Star Trek.

Point taken. Maybe Eberron would've been a better analogy.

I realize high magic and technology are at some point indistinguishable.

In the end it may not be can you do something, but how expensive is it to do certain things that makes a difference. We think of magic have no real cost in resources, but if the materials to perform spells were more expensive then while people would have the ability to do things, they wouldn't use them for everything. i.e. before recently you could put a computer chip in a coffee maker, but why would you? Now, its so cheap to put a computer chip in a coffee maker, all coffee makers have computer chips.

Technology usually makes things cheaper. Magic doesn't inherently have to be cheap.

[Eldan]

As opposed to the current system where [wizards are best]

Actually, Artificers are just as T1 as Wizards and I've heard people argue that they are actually better. Without the loss of XP costs.

[Maginomicon]

Definitely an interesting aesthetic. You'd want to radically expand the range of PrCs available and useful to Artificers to make this viable though, including at least some gish PrCs.

By RAW, spellcasting-progression-advancing PrCs advance [magic] artificers, and manifester-progression-advancing PrCs advance psionic artificers.

It's in the sidebar of Magic of Eberron page 53.

[Urpriest]

By RAW, spellcasting-progression-advancing PrCs advance [magic] artificers, and manifester-progression-advancing PrCs advance psionic artificers.

It's in the sidebar of Magic of Eberron page 53.

True, but Arcane and Divine PrCs don't work, and there are things (probably not Craft Reserve here, but maybe Bonus Feats and the like) which aren't advanced because the classes aren't designed for Artificer use. Basically, the list ought to be expanded.

[DMVerdandi]

I like the idea of gaining xp from making items. I don't think it would make PC's any less likely to play. You can only earn 25 xp per day making items, and that's only if you have thousands of gp. You'd have to adventure to get the treasure.

With 1 xp = 5 gp, an item should cost 90% the market value in materials, and earn 1/25 the value of the item in xp. That's if items are commissioned for sale. I believe the price for selling items "on spec" is 50% the market price; you can't make money even using existing rules. It is likely that much of the 10% profit would be used up just by regular living expenses.
Thanks for the maths:smallwink:
So with just a 10% profit, and a small amount of xp gained, it is not game-breaking at all, but makes sense how an artificer can slowly, yet safely make levels without adventuring. 20 is probably going to take YEARS of work every day though.







I like the idea a lot. I actually think it fixes some of the balancing problem left by casters.

Artificers can still be tier zero. Be fair warned. I'm not sure how you nerf that other than agreement with players playing artificers.

Do you envision every party having an artificer? Do you think the Artificer just stays at home crafting and pays for items with the sale of his items? Do you envision Gish characters using levels of artificer or simply using UMD?

In general, you maybe better off eliminating all casting and rely more heavily on UMD, but something to look at is how much wealth you give characters per level, because without casters you go through more consumable magic and might need more every so often magical items.

I don't know if you need to so futuristic. You may want 2099, but I think you can do Tippyverse, high magic from artifice technology.
Well, from my point of view, every party need not have an artificer. Since WBL Chart is out, one doesn't actually save that much from even having one in the party. It's more of a choice of the player to whether they want to fulfill what would look like the spellcaster role. As the artificer is best at using magic items, they would most strongly exemplify a magic user in the setting.

While they need not actually adventure, status, wealth, and power comes from those who survive leaving the homestead of the city-states. It's comfy living the civilian life, but the adventurer life is tough. Having an artificer in the party is like bringing the magic shop with you. They still will craft the best, so it will help if everyone runs out of schwag.

Gishes are less prevalent since because of UMD. One need not go through hoops to gain caster level unless they want to craft and craft well. Simply using the items is as simple as maintaining ones UMD score.
Now, since some classes don't have tons of skill points to burn, this comes harder to some than others, but generally, everyone will try to keep it high.


and remember, wealth points are being used, not GP.
It works a bit differently. You basically have to roll for stuff that you can't afford. rather than actually having money, adventurer's spend on credit/debit. GP is heavy and hard to carry around, count and check for it all being real. Credit is much more fluid, and can be enforced. If you spend too much, you HAVE to go adventuring to pay it back. There would be a hard limit on amount of consumables obtainable. Perhaps in tens.
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/modern/smack/wealth.html (Wealth Bonus)

Finally, the setting need not be futuristic, simply punk. And by that I mean decently urbanized. I suppose you could have something like a wilderness setting with only a few artificers, but that really would drive the prices up for the magic items, making the whole idea less accessible. It can be a western, orientalist, jungle, romantic, ect.

I think blending the aesthetic of metropolitanism and meso-american stonework would be beautiful. Skyscrapers inside of overgrown green rainforest. Aztec esque statues. gorgeous, however it could look exactly like ancient rome, or spain, or france, and still work perfectly. one need not make it look advanced. the aesthetic is perfectly mutable





While I'm a bit iffy about the idea of Artificers gaining some set amount of experience from crafting magic items, the general idea of this universe is an intriguing one.

One thing you might want to do is give UMD to everyone as a class skill. This really only makes sense thematically, given how important it would be to this society, but also because there are precious few non-spellcasting classes that actually have it.
I mean, I could... It's less bookwork, so why not. Just because you have the skill doesn't mean you automatically have a rank in it.





Point taken. Maybe Eberron would've been a better analogy.

I realize high magic and technology are at some point indistinguishable.

In the end it may not be can you do something, but how expensive is it to do certain things that makes a difference. We think of magic have no real cost in resources, but if the materials to perform spells were more expensive then while people would have the ability to do things, they wouldn't use them for everything. i.e. before recently you could put a computer chip in a coffee maker, but why would you? Now, its so cheap to put a computer chip in a coffee maker, all coffee makers have computer chips.

Technology usually makes things cheaper. Magic doesn't inherently have to be cheap.
I mean, the idea is really post scarcity, but the fact that someone actually has to craft the items, somewhat individually (not sure if dedicated wright work should be taken out or not) lends to the idea that other services might need to be taken care of by others.
Monster hunting, government, menial taskwork, ect. Some things can't simply be handled by magic.
And sense everyone can at least take a level to get educated in basic craftwork, the sense of elitism somewhat vanishes.


Actually, Artificers are just as T1 as Wizards and I've heard people argue that they are actually better. Without the loss of XP costs.
It's really the bookwork which makes them harder to manage. Without mitigation somehow, there is F-tons of bookwork.
You have to manage what Items are being built, how many charges one has, time, money, and of course, the XP thing.

And yes, artificers are really great, but they don't necessarily always have the right item on them if they aren't adventurers. An at home artificer is much more likely to have a wand of fabricate on him than one of some obscure attacking spell, unless he is selling it or using it for self defense.


By RAW, spellcasting-progression-advancing PrCs advance [magic] artificers, and manifester-progression-advancing PrCs advance psionic artificers.

It's in the sidebar of Magic of Eberron page 53.
Thank you.

True, but Arcane and Divine PrCs don't work, and there are things (probably not Craft Reserve here, but maybe Bonus Feats and the like) which aren't advanced because the classes aren't designed for Artificer use. Basically, the list ought to be expanded.

I am thinking of having them require whatever they require, but not increasing the spellcaster level, but the class level, as some prestige classes do. Now, all of them increase caster/manifester level, increase class level.