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Xuldarinar
2013-08-06, 03:52 PM
NON-BELIEVER
What are you guy's talking about? For the last time, dragons do not exist! -Nonbeliever

Even in a world of magic, there are those blissfully unaware of it's presence. These individuals fall into two categories. In most cases, they are simply ignorant of its presence. When faced with magic, they realize it's presence. However, there are those who's disbelief of the magical influences their very bond with the world. These individuals are known, as nonbelievers.

Hit Die: d6

Class Skills
The nonbeliever's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+0|Disbelief
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+0|-
3rd|+1|+1|+1|+1|-
4th|+2|+1|+1|+1|-
5th|+2|+1|+1|+1|-
6th|+3|+2|+2|+2|-
7th|+3|+2|+2|+2|-
8th|+4|+2|+2|+2|-
9th|+4|+3|+3|+3|-
10th|+5|+3|+3|+3|-
11th|+5|+3|+3|+3|-
12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+4|-
13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+4|-
14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+4|-
15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5|-
16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+5|-
17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+5|-
18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|-
19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|-
20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+6|-

Class Features
The following are the class features of the Nonbeliever class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The nonbeliever is proficient with one simple weapon. He is not proficient with any other weapons nor is he proficient with any type of armor or shields.

Disbelief (Ex): Nonbelievers have the remarkable ability to perceive the world in a more mundane fashion. Spells and magical creatures do not exist to them. Anything of the supernatural cannot be perceived by them, nor can it affect them. Magical items either do not exist, or lack any abilities to them. As to what all this ability covers is up to the DM. Because of this, while a magical creature could perceive the nonbeliever, neither could affect the other.

Ex-Nonbeliever

Nonbelievers who begin to accept the existence of any magical aspect of the world lose the disbelief class feature. This can include anywhere from acknowledging a spell did something, to taking a level in a spellcasting class. Nonbelievers, if they do worship a deity, usually only worship the great unknown (See Planar Handbook, page 43). Only when the character can truly be convinced that what they have perceived wasn't real can they regain their class features.

__________
An idea i've had for a while, so I thought i'd post it. Similar to how the defiant gains power through disbelief, but to an extreme. They do not acknowledge the existence of magic in any sense, and thus the world to them is mundane. You or I would be considered to have a level or two in nonbeliever, as even if there were magic in this world.. how would we know?

Lord Raziere
2013-08-06, 04:29 PM
:smallamused:

I can see this being a frustrating class for any tier-1 caster

Wizard: Disintegrate!
Non-Believer: you can't disintegrate people, your just using smoke and mirrors, see? I'm unharmed.
Wizard: Summon Monster IX!
Non-Believer: Just a bunch of guys in a costume and special effects.
Wizard: FIREBALL!
Non-Believer: I'm unharmed by your so-called "fireball" see? its clearly just some trick, and this "wizard" is just a charlatan!
Wizard: :smallfurious:

Xuldarinar
2013-08-06, 04:47 PM
:smallamused:

I can see this being a frustrating class for any tier-1 caster

Wizard: Disintegrate!
Non-Believer: you can't disintegrate people, your just using smoke and mirrors, see? I'm unharmed.
Wizard: Summon Monster IX!
Non-Believer: Just a bunch of guys in a costume and special effects.
Wizard: FIREBALL!
Non-Believer: I'm unharmed by your so-called "fireball" see? its clearly just some trick, and this "wizard" is just a charlatan!
Wizard: :smallfurious:

Part of the point. It actually brings a class in that does balance things. A rogue or fighter could wipe the floor with them, but spell casters couldn't do a thing. If a DM is ever pissed off at the casters in their group, they can bring this class to the table as enemies.

ironwizard
2013-08-06, 06:17 PM
I disbelieve the AMF. Do magic things suddenly start working for those around me?

Or does it just allow magic to affect me, except that I don't believe it?

Does this recurs? :P

Realms of Chaos
2013-08-06, 06:52 PM
Part of the point. It actually brings a class in that does balance things. A rogue or fighter could wipe the floor with them, but spell casters couldn't do a thing. If a DM is ever pissed off at the casters in their group, they can bring this class to the table as enemies.

As I've tried extensively in the past to do similar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117233) things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291744), I feel pretty confident that this class doesn't do what you intend.

This guy doesn't bring balance. Casters wipe the floor with warriors, warriors wipe the floor with a non-believer, and non-believers... don't wipe the floor with casters. At their very best, these guys are an adamantine brick against casters, even if one supposed that these guys did their job properly.

1. I, however, am kind of reluctant to suppose that these guys are doing their job properly. You can stop a fireball or finger of death, certainly. What happens when the caster starts fighting you indirectly, however?

what happens when the caster buffs himself? Does his bonuses magically fail the moment this guy becomes involved? Can wounds from this guy be magically healed, for that matter?

What happens when he disintegrates the support beam holding the very real roof up over your heads? Does there suddenly exist one world where everyone but the non-believer is crushed and one world where nothing happens? Can the non-believer then perform reconnaissance through the "non-wreckage"? Similar question for flinging boulders with telekinesis or nonmagical barriers created through magic (like wall of stone) applies as well here.

What happens when the caster charms the party fighter into killing him with a very real sword? Does the non-believer live in a separate little world where his friend didn't go nuts for "no reason" and perforate his spleen?

There are a plethora of possible rule-problems involved here which kind of comes down to the crucial problem with this type of mechanic: either you allow spellcasters a way to kill this guy (defeating the purpose) or you give this guy all of the DM fiat armor it needs in order to resist every possible combination of spells ever (at which point it isn't even a mechanic anymore).

2. Moving on to a different category of rule question not addressed, what counts as magical? Does it refer to creatures with racial magic or to any creature that modern humans would consider "fantastical"? Do gnomes not exist as they have racial SLAs? How about orcs? Hill giants? Does alchemy count as science and still exist or does its ties to magic mean that its all a bunch of baloney?

3. Another question that came up considering how non-believers can't believe in spell effects. How does the non-believer process spells being used on others? When a wizard casts weird, does the non-believer see someone waves his arms yelling gobbledygook before... his friends fall dead from simultaneous heart attacks? How would you explain a dimension door from a space you know to have no hidden exits? What does the non-believer see when a wizard throws a boulder affected by shrink item? Does every reverse gravity effect make it look like your friends are playing a prank on you with your the help of your enemy?

4. Continuing on that line of thought, the non-believer creates a lot of situations that are pretty hard to RP through. some spells make it look like your enemies and friends have joined to play a prank on you. Every charm and compulsion used on friends creates the impression that your friends are actually insane and raises the question of WHY you travel with what you perceive to be psychopaths. While working this out could be fun RP for individual characters, this type of misconception is kind of built into the class itself and that seems a bit iffy.

5. Moving back to this class, it would seem to me that having one in your party hinders not only itself but everyone else as well seeing as mass party effects such as teleportation doesn't work and I doubt that this guy can even get to other planes. A large swath of adventures literally can't work with this guy, not because he has all of the answers but because the party would have to leave the non-believer behind.

6. Generally speaking, one of my bigger problems with this class is that the penalties this guy suffers are huge and the player doesn't even really get to enjoy the benefits gained in their place. This guy is hosed compared to everyone else. No magical healing, no buffs, no magic items, and you're dead forever if you bite it even once. If you enter a battle where you really shine, however... everything is still (mechanically) boring.

If the party is fighting a dragon that you can't detect, you literally have no way of participating in that fight. You can't attack the dragon, wouldn't know to taunt the dragon (and would feel silly doing so), and have nothing else to do with the time your party spends fighting other than making snarky remarks at how everyone is swinging their swords at thin air.

If you fight a wizard, you are lucky enough to see it but you still have nothing to do. You can pick up a stick and hit the guy with him... or can plink crossbow bolts at him if he's using "invisible wires" to suspend himself in mid-air. That's it.

7. Going back to my initial statements, this guy fails at his one mission statement. Even if you are in a heavy-magic campaign and all of your enemies are arcanist, this guy is ill-equipped to actually foil or defeat just about anyone unless the circumstances are really set up for them. This guy doesn't stop the caster from retreating or hurting your friends or just working around you because you are ill-equipped to fight them. A cleric or druid can kill you without much difficulty in a straight-up fight and you have only the slimmest of advantages over a wizard of your level.

8. Why isn't this a feat? Making this thing a class seems patently ridiculous as you gain all of the benefits with 1 level, gain the worst of everything with each subsequent level, and have nothing stopping you from taking levels in barbarian or rogue or similar classes (actually fixing a complaint or two above). This class, more than anything I have ever seen, actively insults you for daring to take more than one level in it so even making those levels seems pointless. Given that the downsides are much higher than the benefits, is there even any reason not to make it a feat?

Xuldarinar
2013-08-06, 07:46 PM
As I've tried extensively in the past to do similar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117233) things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291744), I feel pretty confident that this class doesn't do what you intend.

This guy doesn't bring balance. Casters wipe the floor with warriors, warriors wipe the floor with a non-believer, and non-believers... don't wipe the floor with casters. At their very best, these guys are an adamantine brick against casters, even if one supposed that these guys did their job properly.
….


You know, you are absolutely right. There are a lot of things that would need to be worked out, and since all of the benefits are 1st level, why not have it as a feat.

Most of the situations you described, we would need to explore and decide what would occur, or these things would need worked out by a DM on a case by case basis.

The concept behind this class has been in my head for a while, and was a point of amusement to me. I was going to have a building progression, but I really couldn't think of a way to do it. So, the ability at 1st level. So…


Disbelief
Prerequisites: Cannot believe in magic or anything related to it.
Benefit: You are incapable of perceiving magic or magical creatures. Spells are ineffective against you, creatures that are magical in nature are invisible and pass harmlessly through you, and you are incapable of unitizing magical items and spells. Magical weapons used against you are treated as non magical and perceived as such.
Special: Due to the nature of this feat, what creatures are defined as magical and the perceptions of the character of this feat is up to the DM.
Special: If you acknowledge the existence of magic in any sense, you lose the benefits of this feat.


Again, not perfect. Far from it. I think most applications of this content are actually nonsensical. If someone can put this to use in a serious campaign and have someone who can role-play it effectively, more power to them.

In part, the idea was inspired by when I heard of the character of Harald the Missionary from Erik the Viking. When they go to valhalla, he does not see it. Harald is then capable of just walking out of valhalla (the walls are invisible and insubstantial to him), and having this ability allows him to save everyone else. While its a great point of frustration to his allies, it turns out to be a great help.

Pesimismrocks
2013-08-07, 06:51 AM
Best dip ever for a fighter/barbarian/monk/crusader/any other combat class

Qwertystop
2013-08-07, 09:07 AM
Best dip ever for a fighter/barbarian/monk/crusader/any other combat class

Except not at all in any way, because they now can't deal with any magical threat and can't get buffs.

Lord Raziere
2013-08-07, 02:28 PM
Except not at all in any way, because they now can't deal with any magical threat and can't get buffs.

They can deal with magical threats, they can't get buffs sure but that doesn't matter because they can't get debuffed either.

I can see it now:

BARBARIAN NOT FALL FOR PUNY ROBE MAN'S TRICKS! *decks him through the wall*

MAGIC NO EXIST! BARBARIAN IS SCIENTIST! IS ENLIGHTENED ABOUT HOW WORLD WORKS! GOT PASSING GRADES IN PHYSICS.

Qwertystop
2013-08-07, 03:32 PM
They can deal with magical threats, they can't get buffs sure but that doesn't matter because they can't get debuffed either.

I can see it now:

BARBARIAN NOT FALL FOR PUNY ROBE MAN'S TRICKS! *decks him through the wall*

MAGIC NO EXIST! BARBARIAN IS SCIENTIST! IS ENLIGHTENED ABOUT HOW WORLD WORKS! GOT PASSING GRADES IN PHYSICS.

They can only deal with magic-using threats that only use magic to hinder the Non-Believer, instead of to get out of the way. They can't deal with any threat that is magical - it may not threaten them, but they can't help anyone else with it.

BWR
2013-08-07, 03:47 PM
Full Frontal Nerdity did a comic about this a while back. Can't seem to find it, though.

Arcanist
2013-08-07, 08:06 PM
Full Frontal Nerdity did a comic about this a while back. Can't seem to find it, though.

Welp, I read that as full frontal nudity... I'll just return to my corner now...

OT: I thought you should define the parameters more accurately instead of up and leaving it to the DM to decide.


Nonbelievers have the remarkable ability to perceive the world in a more mundane fashion. Spells and magical creatures do not exist to them. Anything of the supernatural cannot be perceived by them, nor can it affect them. Magical items either do not exist, or lack any abilities to them. As to what all this ability covers is up to the DM. Because of this, while a magical creature could perceive the nonbeliever, neither could affect the other.

This can be completely removed if one accounts for Clarke's three laws, where completely magical events can be perceived as mundane scenarios. I'm not going to suggest that they should be walking around with Antimagic Fields around them and Spell-Psi Immunity: Yes, but if you take one extreme over another that is what it effectively turns into.