[3.5] practical Paladin optimization

[Firechanter]

Hey Gang,

I've been wondering about how to make the Paladin stand his ground in a game with Clerics, Warblades and Crusaders. I remember reading at one time that a Pally can be potentially more powerful thana Crusader, but the respective thread never mentioned how that would be done.

Anyway, so I'd like to lay out a Paladin that might be worth playing in a game that's heavy on T3 classes, particularly competing with a Crusader.

The basic parameters should be as follows:
3.5 with most splatbooks allowed
32 Point Buy
Race: Human _or_ Lesser Aasimar
No alignment Shenanigans. Lawful Good, period.

- Multiclassing is fine, but it should remain clear that this character is primarily a _Paladin_, not some Whatever who happened to mix in a Pally level at some point. So, he should have more Pal levels than any other base class.

- the character should be _playable_ throughout his career (assume play start at level 3). I.e. no TO nonsense that leaves you with a complete cripple for 15 levels before some final gimmick comes online. ;)

- in terms of play style, I'm flexible. An actual Mounted Paladin would be an option just as well as one that trades away his mount for some ACF. He should be able to dish out juicy damage, and ideally also offer some support/buffing to his companions.

I'm not asking for a complete build or anything, but some pointers as to what I should definitely look at would be appreciated. :)

[ArqArturo]

Multiclassing into Shugenja is pretty good, since it's a Charisma-related divine spellcaster, plus divine magic works with armor, thus making you a good divine gish candidate.

Fist of Raziel bumps up Smite Evil in silly ways, plus a nine-level spell progression, and it makes for an ideal paladin PrC. Other Prestige classes I could think that could combine well afterwards are Sacred Exorcist.

Also, if you're looking to loop away from code restrictions, consider the Gray Guard. No only does it also have a measure of spell progression, it also nudges some of the restrictions of your code at 10th level, and turns you lay on hands from heal, to sicken, to hurt.

[Namfuak]

Sword of the Arcane Order + Battle Blessing gives you swift action wizard spells up to 6th level (bard progression, iirc). Battle Blessing on its own fixes a lot of the paladin action economy issues with spells, and is a general rather than setting specific feat (SotAO is Faerun specific). Prestige classes that get you domains like Ordained Champion are usually useful, especially again combined with Battle Blessing.

A guide for reference: http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html

[Kuulvheysoon]

Sword of the Arcane Order + Battle Blessing gives you swift action wizard spells up to 6th level (bard progression, iirc). Battle Blessing on its own fixes a lot of the paladin action economy issues with spells, and is a general rather than setting specific feat (SotAO is Faerun specific). Prestige classes that get you domains like Ordained Champion are usually useful, especially again combined with Battle Blessing.

A guide for reference: http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html

That... doesn't work.

Battle Blessing specifically quickens Paladin spells, not spells cast out of Paladin slots. Flickerdart says it best -
Battle Blessing auto-quickens Paladin spells. It does not do anything to, say, Cleric spells cast by a Prestige Paladin. At best, you get quickened Paladin spells. At worst, you get nothing because the spells are all treated as off whatever list you have.

[Firechanter]

Fist of Raziel sounds pretty good.
Maybe start off with a single level of Cloistered Cleric first, then add Paladin 6, then switch over to Fist of Raziel...

Use Cleric level to trade Domains for Devotion feats, and gain early access to Turn Undead. And some emergency spells to boot.

What feats are particularly recommended?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Travel Devotion is always good, and I've got a fondness for Law Devotion, as well.

Sword of the Arcane Order, as mentioned, is excellent (though increases your MAD by not letting you dump INT). I also like Touch of Healing on my Paladins.

[Namfuak]

That... doesn't work.

Battle Blessing specifically quickens Paladin spells, not spells cast out of Paladin slots. Flickerdart says it best -

It isn't worth arguing here, especially since the real answer (as is with most of SotAO, unfortunately) is ask your DM.

As an aside, paladins can make pretty decent uberchargers by using Charging Smite from PHBII combined with the standard ubercharger feats/dips.

[Hytheter]

It isn't worth arguing here, especially since the real answer (as is with most of SotAO, unfortunately) is ask your DM.

As an aside, paladins can make pretty decent uberchargers by using Charging Smite from PHBII combined with the standard ubercharger feats/dips.

Not to mention Rhino's Rush as a first level spell. Makes for very powerful charges.

Serenity from Dragon Compendium could be useful if you're casting, it reduces MAD by basing all your Paladin abilities on Wis instead of Cha. There are also some options to replace the spells and reduce MAD that way...

[eggynack]

Well, for something that definitely does work with sword of the arcane order (or at least the extra slots do) consider mystic fire knight from champions of valor. You trade turn undead for bonus slots, get an increased caster level for the paladin spells you cast, augments your smite evil a bit, and trades remove disease for a once per day greater dispel magic that's delivered through your melee attack. It's pretty sweet. In fact, a paladin gains a great deal through ACF's.

I'll just toss a quick list of some that I've heard people mention. There's charging smite from the PHB II which trades the mount for exactly what it says on the tin, there's divine spirit from dungeonscape which gets you a fancy spirit friend (There's a link hereabouts (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a) for more details. There're quite a few details), there's harmonious knight from the Champions of Valor web enhancement, which gets you a minor version of inspire courage for your detect evil (for more fun along these lines, look into from smite to song from the regular Champions of Valor), and there's underdark knight from Complete Champion which trades out the mount for a number of abilities that you can use underground. The most notable of those is probably earthglide at level twelve. Those are the major ones, by my recollection, but here's (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III) an ACF list if you want more.

[gorfnab]

Paladin Handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.ca/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html)
Paladin Build Compendium (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8971)

[GreenETC]

Aeshkrau Illumian basically fixes the Paladin with no work at all, letting them effectively run with flat Wisdom. I've also been a fan of the Paladin of Mystra, and with proper purchase of items, Paladins can turn out as good chargers or decent gishes.

[Big Fau]

@OP: The Paladin can be more powerful than the Crusader, but only in certain areas (specifically, its spellcasting can be buffed via feats and ACFs to the point that it becomes more versatile than the Crusader). For the most part, the Paladin and Crusader are fairly close to equal in damage.

The biggest advantage the Crusader has is that it is worth taking to 20th, whereas Paladin 20 is considered a horrible build even with something like MFK or SotAO.

[Incanur]

If you don't want to be Illumian, there's also the feat Serenity (http://dndtools.eu/feats/dragon-compendium--109/serenity--3394/) to consider for reducing MAD. As awesome as Sword of the Arcane Order is, the Int requirement makes it a bit of a pain. I'd recommend just Mystic Fire Knight (http://dndtools.eu/feats/dragon-compendium--109/serenity--3394/) sub levels and Battle Blessing. If you go for a mount, remember the mount options in the DMG. My favorite is unicorn starting at level 6.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275093#5)....

[Firechanter]

So I take it I should pay more attention to the spellcasting; usually I prefer long-term buffs but I suppose the Pally needs to make use of instantaneous spells a lot.

As people have mentioned Charging: is there a good way to gain extra attacks on the charge for the Pally? I know the Spirit Lion thing but that's for non-lawful Barbs; the ToB maneuver that requires way too much investment in Warblade; a Ranger/Druid spell to which the Pal doesn't have access; and a Psionic power which again is probably out of reach. And well, one can use a mount, but then again the whole point of Smiting Charge is to trade away your mount for something supposedly more useful.

Side note, I think in 3.5 the Pally hits his absolute low. In 3.0, Divine Might at least was good for several rounds, and in PF the whole chassis is much stronger, with less MAD and more useful Smiting. But 3.5 just gets the shaft.

[eggynack]

As people have mentioned Charging: is there a good way to gain extra attacks on the charge for the Pally? I know the Spirit Lion thing but that's for non-lawful Barbs; the ToB maneuver that requires way too much investment in Warblade; a Ranger/Druid spell to which the Pal doesn't have access; and a Psionic power which again is probably out of reach. And well, one can use a mount, but then again the whole point of Smiting Charge is to trade away your mount for something supposedly more useful.
Offhand, I can think of two kinda paladin specific things that allow you to move and attack efficiently. The first is rhino's rush from the spell compendium. It's a first level paladin spell that let's you deal double damage on a charge based hit. That one gets you the charge bonus aspect, but not the multiple attack aspect. The second is travel devotion, fueled by the paladin's convenient access to turn undead. It has nothing to do with charging, but basically free movement means that you can move and full attack, which might be enough. Neither option is perfect, but both options are pretty neat.

[Gwendol]

Those would be my suggestions as well. I strongly recommend the from smite to song feat. Inspire courage is always useful.

[Occasional Sage]

Also, see if your DM is open to importing the PF Paladin. It fixes a ton of problems (Smite Evil and Lay on Hands, I'm looking at you!).

[Firechanter]

Also, see if your DM is open to importing the PF Paladin. It fixes a ton of problems (Smite Evil and Lay on Hands, I'm looking at you!).

Yeah, PF Paladin would be lovely. Especially when combined with the sweet, juicy feats and spells from 3.5, which are so much better than the crummy PF fare.

Concerning From Smite to Song, I'd think that Harmonious Knight would be the better deal. You trade away Detect Evil and get many more uses of Inspire Courage, while not giving up any Smites. And you don't even have to spend a feat.

I find it a bit odd that there are so few Paladin handbooks. I find the Dictum Mortuum one isn't very good, as opposed to his much more elaborate Wizard guides.

[Gwendol]

I disagree, detect evil is an useful paladin feature, and with the feat you simply expand your choices: either smite or sing.

[Piggy Knowles]

My favorite is the A Game Paladin (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29110689), a paladin 20 build that combines aeshkrau illumian, From Smite to Song, Words of Creation and other goodies to end up with a surprisingly versatile and strong "leader" build.

It has one minor fluff issue, in that as written it must be a member of two different knightly orders, but if you can't resolve the fluff in game, they have suggestions on how to make it solely a member of the Harmonious Knights.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, it's a very good build, while staying true to the idea of a divine champion of good that is the paladin.

[Piggy Knowles]

Concerning From Smite to Song, I'd think that Harmonious Knight would be the better deal. You trade away Detect Evil and get many more uses of Inspire Courage, while not giving up any Smites. And you don't even have to spend a feat.

Eh, I actually don't really like the first level of Harmonious Knight. You get a lot of uses, but the IC never scales, so you're stuck at +1. With Badge of Valor/Vest of Legends, Song of the Heart and Words of Creation you could get that up to +8, but From Smite to Song scales with your paladin level and therefore can get you up to +14.

[ArqArturo]

Actually, that is a very nice build. Another, bit more greedy build is Roland, Bear of the North, posted by Caelic in the WoTC (I haven't been able to find the original post, so I found this one (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2919.50;wap2) instead) which makes him more of a gish/skillmonkey of sorts than a real Paladin.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Eh, I actually don't really like the first level of Harmonious Knight. You get a lot of uses, but the IC never scales, so you're stuck at +1. With Badge of Valor/Vest of Legends, Song of the Heart and Words of Creation you could get that up to +8, but From Smite to Song scales with your paladin level and therefore can get you up to +14.

Or trade it for Inspire Awe like I did in this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275093#5) (already linked earlier), and pick up Haunting Melody to spend two music uses in one action for two chances to make every opponent Shaken. On top of Frightful Presence and move-action Intimidate checks at +92 with Imperious Command.

[Firechanter]

Okay, now I see the point in the Smite to Song feat, thanks.

Ooer, I like the A-Game Paladin -- actually, with his party-buffiness he's very much what I've had in mind.
Biggest problem here is the race, Illumian. I'm afraid that RoD book is not available, and I'm not even familiar with it.

So it looks like I'm not getting rid of Wis that easily... unless I can negotiate to use the PF Paladin as chassis, which uses Cha for spellcasting.
Otherwise, the 32pt-buy will have to save my bacon, so I can assign them 14/10/14/14/14/14.

Come to think of it: he doesn't use Turn attempts, he doesn't smite - so Cha isn't even that important to him, is it?

Words of Creation is also a borderline case, but for this character I might be able to use it.

[Piggy Knowles]

Or trade it for Inspire Awe like I did in this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275093#5) (already linked earlier), and pick up Haunting Melody to spend two music uses in one action for two chances to make every opponent Shaken. On top of Frightful Presence and move-action Intimidate checks at +92 with Imperious Command.

Yeah, if you can trade it for a version that doesn't need to advance to be good like Inspire Awe, it's way better than detect evil at will. But otherwise? Not so much, especially when you can use your evildar to check through doors, floors, ceilings, etc. when dungeon crawling.


Come to think of it: he doesn't use Turn attempts, he doesn't smite - so Cha isn't even that important to him, is it?

Words of Creation is also a borderline case, but for this character I might be able to use it.

You'll need a decent Cha just to qualify for Words of Creation, and it'll still boost his saves, but it's way less important for the A-Game Paladin than for your standard pally.

[Firechanter]

I also see some other problems with the A-Game Paladin, partly due to rule ambiguities, partly due to it requiring some very liberal interpretations of the rules to work:

- Words of Creation: the rule text keeps going on about "Bardic Music". From Smite to Song is described as "duplicating the effects of bardic music". I think it's not too far fetched to allow it to work, but one could object to it.
- as the build description already says, you need to be member of two different Paladin orders to take the different substitution levels. As written, this is impossible because you'd need two different patron deities. If this is considered a balance factor, the DM may waive this if the rest of the party are higher-tier classes.
- Song of the Heart: this is pretty clearly out, since it requires "Bardic Music class feature". You don't have Bardic Music as class feature. Again, "as written" doesn't mean it can't be houseruled.
- SotAO: unfortunately here we have some unclarities about the workings of the feat.
-- In particular, it's unclear whether the spells are divine or arcane spells, and whether they are subject to ASF or not.
-- also, it's a bit unclear what your wizard spell caster level is if you don't have actual wizard levels: half your paladin class level, or full?
-- last not least, it's _highly dubious_ that Battle Blessing should work on wizard spells.

It may actually be worth considering to multiclass a little: either the aforementioned Cloistered Cleric for extra skill points and free domains and Will save boost _and_ retained Turn Undead capability, at the cost of a few HP and 1 BAB and slightly delayed casting. Or a level of Wizard to improve your CL.

I suppose even a Paladin that specializes on only one of these two tricks, Inspire Courage _or_ Wizard casting, should be a pretty good character.

A Human instead of Illumian will have a 2 lower CL and won't be able to key his casting off Strength, so he'll have significantly fewer bonus spell slots and/or lower melee attack/damage, have lower spell duration and reach fewer targets. On the plus side, you get an extra feat. :p
So, yeah... as Illumian it's pretty kickass, as Human it's more mundane but still nothing to scoff at. Will write up an adapted build tonight.

[Gwendol]

Yes, the build as written isn't all RAW. Personally I would do without song of the heart, it's good but not essential.
As for SotAO, the spells are divine and not subject to ASF (it doesn't say they are) the spells are prepared in divine spell slots.
It's unfortunate they didn't give more details on how they figured the feat would work, but I would allow battle blessing to work on the wizard spells: you cast them as a paladin using your divinely granted paladin spell slots.

[cerin616]

It isn't worth arguing here, especially since the real answer (as is with most of SotAO, unfortunately) is ask your DM.

As an aside, paladins can make pretty decent uberchargers by using Charging Smite from PHBII combined with the standard ubercharger feats/dips.

I agree whole heartedly. As a DM I would allow it because, while it isnt allowed by RAW, it makes plenty of sense that your wizard spell list is your paladin spell list in this case.

[Firechanter]

Alright, back to the task of converting the AGP from Illumian to Hoomin.
As I wrote before, the biggest problem is that you can't reduce MAD by tying your bonus spell stat to Str.

One idea to offset this would be to use the Human Bonus Feat for Spellcasting Prodigy.

Then it would be a considerable help if I could get Paladin spellcasting tied to CHA instead of WIS. The jury is still out on this. If I can't have this, I'll prolly have to dedicate resources to a Tome in order to get WIS high enough.

Furthermore, the idea of starting out with a single level of Cloistered Cleric apparently has a lot of advantages.
- you get 3 domains, all of which can be converted to Devotion feats, and one of them is Knowledge. The other two can, for example, be Law and Travel.
- you gain Turn Undead here as well, even when you give up your Paladin TU in favour of Mystic Fire Knight. So you really get to eat the cake _and_ keep it.
--> you'll be able to fire up Law Devotion at least 2-3 times per day, which is worth so much more than the 1 BAB point you sacrifice.
- you gain a +2 Will save boost, which is not just good in and of itself, but also enables Words of Creation _five_ levels earlier, so even if you have to wait until level 12 for the feat slot, the build matures much faster.
- you only really "pay" at level 20, when you lose one level 4 spell slot and your 5th Smite. Even the lost upgrade to IC doesn't matter because you still have your Vest of Legends.

So all in all, I think 1 CCl level is a good idea, or am I overlooking anything?

[Gwendol]

I guess your paladin spells come a level later, but since cleric spellcasting is better, this will hardly feel as a loss.

[Firechanter]

Yeah well, Clr spellcasting will only be a single level, so that's a couple of level 1 spells with CL1. Can be useful, but probably not as good as a Holy Sword or a 4th level Wizard spell.

Likewise, as I mused before, a single Wizard level may also be interesting as it would do wonders for your Caster Level, you save the Practiced Spellcaster feat and still come out on top.

On the other hand, the Spirit of the Fallen is a damn beautiful capstone; really something worthy of the name, so that's actually a very good reason not to dip into CCl or Wiz and just pull straight through the Paladin.

And then, of course, there's that constant nagging feeling in the back of my head that while this build may make a good character, a real Bard, Bardsader or Bardblade could do the same shtick, just better: he could also take Words of Creation, use his Bardic Music all the frigging time and have up to 6 spell levels with many more spell slots.
Sure, BAB and HP would be a bit lower, but even that could be somewhat optimized and wouldn't really be a big deal. As for Armour Class, take Battle Caster and live happily ever after in your Mithral Full Plate.