Spell Slots

[Ruethgar]

What defines whether or not a spell slot is arcane or divine? Would a 5th level sorcerer with CC domain access get divine spell slots? What about if they took Extra Slot? What about a druid who got alternate source spell? Or a cleric with Magical Training, Arcane Disciple, Arcane Preparation and Extra Slot?

[ericp65]

It's a class feature, and follows the theme of the class as far as power source; arcane and divine magic have distinctly different power sources.

[Ruethgar]

Divine/arcane spell slots are not a class feature of any class in the PHB, there isn't even mention of the terms in the whole book. Clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, sorcerers and wizards all get spell slots as part of their class features and the ability to learn/prepare/cast spells divine and arcane spells respectfully. But no where does it say they prepare or cast them from specifically arcane or divine spell slots. The book remains rather neutral when discussing spell slots which lends me to the thought that the slot is defined by what spells can be used from it, not the class it comes from.

[Big Fau]

No, but spells are a class feature, and that feature defines if the spell slots are divine or arcane. Domain Access does not have a specific line of text similar to:

A cleric casts divine spells

[Debatra]

Except some spells are on both arcane and divine casters' spell lists. I would argue that it depends on the caster. If a Wizard casts Detect Magic, it's arcane. If a Cleric does the same, it's divine.

For multicasters, it depends on which class's pool of spells it came from.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Ruethgar]

And if a cleric prepares an arcane detect magic, the slot is still divine?

[Debatra]

The spells aren't arcane or divine. The casters are.

[Maginomicon]

"Arcane" and "divine" are just spell types, not spell slot types. The "spell slot types" you're looking for are distinguished by CLASS.

Thus, spell slots between different classes with a multiclass character are entirely separate. For example, a wizard/bard has two spell slot sets, and wizard spells can't be prepared in bard slots.

For any given class, most say "casts (arcane/divine; circle one) spells drawn from the ______ spell list."

For example, a Sha'ir casts both arcane and divine spells, drawn from the sorcerer/wizard list for its arcane spells and specific domain lists for the divine spells.

[Ruethgar]

Alternate Source Spell and Southern Magician both disagree with you, Debatra. Spells are divine or arcane(or shadow or w/e other alternate types). The class determines what type is cast i.e. a cleric "casts divine spells, which are drawn form the cleric spell list" but it never specifies how the slot designation is determined, only the spell.

Normally this would be cut and dry since most classes can only cast one or the other, but clarification is needed as to how exactly the slots are defined when a wizard can prepare and cast divine spells and a cleric can prepare and cast arcane. In the case of divine spellcasters they can of course do this without multiclassing.

Spell slot types are distinguished by arcane and not arcane in several draconic feats but the term is never defined, at least not from the reading I've done.

[Ruethgar]

-.- Is this really like arcane/divine spellcaster in that it was never defined but still used as a requisite?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Alternate Source Spell and Southern Magician both disagree with you, Debatra. Spells are divine or arcane(or shadow or w/e other alternate types).

The quality of a spell is determined strictly by caster (with feats/class features/etc changing this up a bit). The slots themselves are typeless. Ex: a wizard casts arcane spells and so can only fill his slots with arcane spells. Southern magician lets him slip a divine spell into his wizard slot. The SPELL is divine. The slot is typeless. A spell's type only changes when something specifically says it changes.

[Ruethgar]

So all of the draconic lineage feats, draconic arcane grace and draconic breath are 100% useless since "arcane spell slot[s]" don't exist?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Hrm. Looks like you found a rules dysfunction. Got 3 threads worth. Pop this in there.

[Eldonauran]

What defines whether or not a spell slot is arcane or divine? Would a 5th level sorcerer with CC domain access get divine spell slots? What about if they took Extra Slot? What about a druid who got alternate source spell? Or a cleric with Magical Training, Arcane Disciple, Arcane Preparation and Extra Slot?

Let's answer this is succession:

Q: What defines whether or not a spell slot is arcane or divine?
A: What is a spell slot? A name given to a 'additional spell per day' by the feat "Extra Slot'. Poor wording, yes, but let's keep it in context. So, spell slot = additional spell per day. Spells per day are granted by a class feature, which determines the type of casting, arcane or divine.

Q: Would a 5th level sorcerer with CC domain access get divine spell slots?
A: Define what CC means. However, the answer is no. A 5th level sorcerer without any mitigating factors (ie, feats/abilities that change his spell 'slots', or spells per day) casts arcane spells.
-If it is from arcane disciple, the spell is still an arcane spell, as the feat states you add it to the list of arcane spells you can learn from.
-If from southern magician, the spell isn't divine in nature either, though it acts different than an arcane spell. "The actual source of the spell's power doesn't change, nor does its means of preparation. You are merely weaving the strands of magic together in an unconventional way that makes the spell behave somewhat differently". It is an arcane spell that simply acts as a divine spell when cast.
-Alternate Spell Source is probably the only one the legitimately changes the spell source type. Its from dragon magazine, so it loses points in my opinion and I wouldn't allow it, though its RAW can not be argued.

Q: What about if they took Extra Slot?
A: Again, poor wording. It should say, 'grants an additional spell per day' instead of spell slot. Needlessly confusing. Answer is no. You pick a class that grants spells per day and add an additional spell per day of a certain level. It doesn't allow you to select a spell slot to 'duplicate'.

Q: What about a druid who got alternate source spell? Or a cleric with Magical Training, Arcane Disciple, Arcane Preparation and Extra Slot?
A: Let's see: Alternate spell source does nothing as there is no arcane spell list for a divine caster to pull from, when used in combination with below feats.
-Magical training gives the cleric the ability to cast two cantrips once per day as if a wizard with caster level equal to his level. Sounds like a spell-like ability to me, though one affected by arcane casting failure like a warlock. This doesn't grant arcane casting any more than spell-like abilities do, though would allow the character to meet a requirement of an arcane caster level. There is no mention of spells per day, one times per day. Extra slot does not work here as there are no spells per day (of the arcane) for it to work with.
-A cleric is unable to gain access to arcane preperation as he does not cast arcane spells as a sorcerer or bard.
-A cleric is unable to take arcane disciple because he casts no arcane spells and has no arcane spell list to learn from.


In summary? Spell 'slots' is a horrible term that should die in fire. It creates unneeded confusion. Spells known and spells per day have types, and are determined by the class the grants them. Feat/class abilities may change this on a case by case basis and should only be reviewed on a case by case basis.

[Ruethgar]

CC=Complete Champion

Magical Training allows you to choose either wizard or sorcerous spellcasting and does not give you SLAs but rather actual spells. With that you can qualify for Arcane Disciple and Arcane Preparation. Arcane Preparation does not specify that the feat must be used for a specific class and similarly Arcane Disciple does not require the class it applies to be arcane unless you have more than one arcane spellcasting class. You would still need Precocious Apprentice to actually cast an arcane spell however instead of just prepare.

Apart from Alternative Source Spell there is also Anyspell, which quite clearly produces an arcane spell for a cleric.

Again I am seeing the conclusion that about a third of the draconic feats are useless because arcane spell slot does not exist.

[Eldonauran]

I appear to have been viewing older version of those feats and retract my previous comments. However, I still stand firm that Arcane Disciple and Precocious Apprentice do not work in conjuction with Magical Training. Magical training does not grant you access to spell list that can be progressed without actual levels in an arcane class. You merely learn two-three spells on 0 level from the wizard/sorcerer list. You could take both feat, but they do nothing for you.


Again I am seeing the conclusion that about a third of the draconic feats are useless because arcane spell slot does not exist.
They exist as spells per day. When you see 'spell slot', write in 'spells per day'. If you see 'expend a spell slot of 6th level', read 'expend a spell per day of 6th level'.

[Ruethgar]

Arcane Disciple would be your arcane spell list, adding those nine spells to nothing equals those nine spells, unless of course you are considering the arcane spell list to be null as opposed to nothing which is an entirely valid position.

[Eldonauran]

Arcane Disciple would be your arcane spell list, adding those nine spells to nothing equals those nine spells, unless of course you are considering the arcane spell list to be null as opposed to nothing which is an entirely valid position.

I consider the spell list to be null. Spell-lists are a product of classes that grant spellcasting.

Along the lines of a Fighter has no spell-list versus a Fighter has no access to a spell-list because Fighter does not grant a spell-list.

Boils down to the old argument, the rules don't say I can't. You only have Abilities that the rules say you do, exactly as they say you do.

Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells...
Using my example, a Fighter with this feat has no class that grants spells, spells known or a list of spells known. With the Magical Training feats, he knows three spells (or two if the sorcerer base was chosen). He has no way to progress the spell casting from this feat.

I can see the other side's point and would argue against it because reading it that way creates problems. It wouldn't affect the RAW or change anyone's mind.