Will Nale resurrect Zz'dtri?

[xroads]

Nale seemed fairly upset at Durkon killing Zz'dtri. Does anyone think he will attempt to recover and have him resurrected? Or Thog for that matter?

Awesome comic as always Giant. :smallsmile:

[The Smallest]

I'm not sure he can.

[Chad30]

I do, as long as he can get Z's body back. even if he didn't care much for the guy as a person, which he apparently does, a loyal wizard is a good teammate to have.

[luagha]

When Vaarsuvius's twenty minute timeout is done, I have money down on a Disintegrate against the dead body. (No Spell Resistance when you're dead.)

It won't stop Nale all the way from bringing Zz'dtri back but it will make it cost more.

[TRH]

It's occurred to me that The Giant doesn't seem to like how cheap death is in a D&D setting; you'll notice that very, very few characters are ever rezzed, and Roy is the only one of particular note (YMMV on the Oracle). Hell, there wasn't any reason given for why Tarquin's wife Penelope wasn't raised, it just didn't happen. I'm pretty sure some excuse is gonna crop up here, as well, since there seems to be very little reason to kill Z only to spend time bringing him back later.

[Tiiba]

Jirix, too.

[Joe the Rat]

I'm not sure he can.

The hardest part is finding a willing and able cleric, or someone with enough Use Magic Device[/u] to successfully cast from a scroll... assuming he can find a scroll of [i]Raise Dead.

I'm sure Big Daddy T could come up with either one, if he were willing.

Would it add to the story to bring him back? It could be done in story, but what would it add?

It would possibly show yet another sign that Nale is deeper than he looks - and might actually have friends, not pawns and associates.

[Anarion]

Nale, on his own, likely doesn't have access to a True Resurrection. In fact, Redcloak is the only known character in the entire OotS universe that we know of who can cast a True Resurrection.

So, if Nale wants to do a revive, it's dependent on going back to a place to get a body after he just teleported out. Right now the Order is hanging out there (not to mention that there's still the Silicon elemental to finish off, and they'll be there for the next 20 minutes when V comes back.

So, the real question is: will Nale hang out in this area for at least 20 minutes or come back later? And, I think the answer is probably no. It's way out in the desert, still difficult to find due to lingering illusions (and he no longer has a wizard to use True Sight), and Nale was pretty beat up, so he probably wants to leave and find a safe place to rest and heal. Plus, he might want to avoid Tarquin, rather than join back up with him.

[Lombard]

Well Zz'dtri getting a rez after not too long would maintain the evil opposites theme.. since he would have spent a little while down in hell before returning just like V. :smallamused:

Hmm.. for that matter, Thog getting raised after a long time out of the action would parallel Roy. :thog:

[JCAll]

Even if V and Durkon are smart enough to destroy the body, all is not lost. Maybe Z can pull off what V threatened to do so long ago, and come back as a vengeful spellcasting ghost.

[CRtwenty]

I assume that Nale will try to resurrect Z if he can obtain his body without any great risk to himself. At the moment however he's on his own in the middle of a desert with everybody in the nearby area out for his blood. I don't see him heading back in the near future.

Basically if Z's body is left undisturbed by the Order and Tarquin (when he inevitably returns) I could see a rez being a possibility.

[GSFB]

Hell, there wasn't any reason given for why Tarquin's wife Penelope wasn't raised, it just didn't happen. I'm pretty sure some excuse is gonna crop up here

Just going out on a limb here, but guessing Tarquin just didn't care enough to spend 5,000 gp on it. And that will be the factor for Nale, as well. He COULD pretty easily get the Drow raised - but is it worth it to him? Does he have other spell casters he could hire/recruit to help him on his quests? My guess is - this is the last we see of that Drow. Unless...


Maybe Z can pull off what V threatened to do so long ago, and come back as a vengeful spellcasting ghost.

Now that, I could see...

[Sky_Schemer]

Nale, on his own, likely doesn't have access to a True Resurrection. In fact, Redcloak is the only known character in the entire OotS universe that we know of who can cast a True Resurrection.

According to Rich, no one in the OotS universe has True Resurrection because it's a plot-wrecking device (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13861815&postcount=12).

[GSFB]

TR doesn't have to be a plot wrecking device, because you can always write scenarios where it doesn't work - for instance, being snuffed by a God-Eating Snarl may prevent TR from working. Also, being a 9th level spell and costing a 25,000 GP diamond mean even if someone can potentially know it, finding that someone AND getting them to cast it is not guaranteed.

Getting back to the ghost idea - what determines if a dead PC/NPC can return as a ghost? (Other than plot, of course)

[King of Nowhere]

Nale will surely try, because a high level loyal (at least for the loyalty standards of evil characters) wizard is a much valuable asset than a few thousands gp. whether he will succeed is another matter

[Mike Havran]

Hell, there wasn't any reason given for why Tarquin's wife Penelope wasn't raised, it just didn't happen.

Maybe being killed by Epic Familicide prevents all targets from being raised.



Getting back to the ghost idea - what determines if a dead PC/NPC can return as a ghost? (Other than plot, of course)

The person must have Charisma at least 6. Other than that, I think it's up to the GM.

[quasit]

Maybe being killed by Epic Familicide prevents all targets from being raised.



And as death effects trumphs over raise dead (resurrection is the minimun viable spell) that seems likely. Would also explain why no a Draketooth could be brought back (aside of just not willing to, they might not be able by any mean)

[Ill Made Knight]

According to Rich, no one in the OotS universe has True Resurrection because it's a plot-wrecking device (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13861815&postcount=12).

He said it is treated as though not available in each specific instance, when he writes the plot, not that it is actually not available. Clearly it was available, because Dorukan wanted to use it on Lirian (whose body he did not have because Xykon had it as a Zombie) but couldn't without her soul being free.

[Tircey]

I so want to see Tarquin agree ot resurrect Z on the condition they also get to bring back Malack. Just to see the look on Nale's face. (Even if Tarquin if just bluffing)

[t209]

My Prediction: A replacement as either zombie or vampire drow wizard. Hey, you might get exempt from doing evil things to evil wizard of evil race despite the fact that it would break the anti racist theme of this comic.

[Xelbiuj]

I don't think he will. My guess is that they needed to shrink the party so Tarquin can pull his allies in and show up for the last gate without completely overwhelming the Order.

As for true res, I thought that's why Xykon uses soul bind and the ABD said she got a scroll of it, without TR, a disintegrate, having ghouls eat the corpse, or any number of methods can prevent them from being raised.

[Kish]

My Prediction: A replacement as either zombie or vampire drow wizard. Hey, you might get exempt from doing evil things to evil wizard of evil race despite the fact that it would break the anti racist theme of this comic.
You're suggesting that Rich is going to bring back Zz'dtri...and pile "evil" templates on top of him until the Order can do evil things to him freely because of Rich having effectively filibustered his own comic's themes with so many templates?

I have a radical alternative. Zz'dtri is not going to get up. Ever.

[Ill Made Knight]

I don't think he will. My guess is that they needed to shrink the party so Tarquin can pull his allies in and show up for the last gate without completely overwhelming the Order.

As for true res, I thought that's why Xykon uses soul bind and the ABD said she got a scroll of it, without TR, a disintegrate, having ghouls eat the corpse, or any number of methods can prevent them from being raised.

True Res doesn't require the body.

[Storel]

If Nale tells Tarquin that they need to raise Z, I figure the response will be "Oh, sure. We'll need Malack for that."

[snikrept]

Well Zz'dtri getting a rez after not too long would maintain the evil opposites theme.. since he would have spent a little while down in hell before returning just like V. :smallamused:


Nitpick: Wouldn't he end up with Lolth in the Abyss instead of in Hell/Baator ?

[TRH]

If Nale tells Tarquin that they need to raise Z, I figure the response will be "Oh, sure. We'll need Malack for that."

At least he can't throw the snake's skeleton at Nale just to mock him. "Your drow friend needs a rez? Oh sure, I'll get my best cleric right on that! Oh, wait, you just dusted him! Guess you'll have to wait!" :smallwink:

[Chad30]

When Vaarsuvius's twenty minute timeout is done, I have money down on a Disintegrate against the dead body. (No Spell Resistance when you're dead.)

It won't stop Nale all the way from bringing Zz'dtri back but it will make it cost more.

Somehow I doubt he'd do something necessarily mean like that, given that other time he used disintegrate to get rid of a problem.

[ellindsey]

And as death effects trumphs over raise dead (resurrection is the minimun viable spell) that seems likely. Would also explain why no a Draketooth could be brought back (aside of just not willing to, they might not be able by any mean)

Durkon tries to use Resurrection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) to bring back the Draketooths, so being killed by a death effect wouldn't matter.

[Sky_Schemer]

He said it is treated as though not available in each specific instance, when he writes the plot, not that it is actually not available. Clearly it was available, because Dorukan wanted to use it on Lirian

Hmm. Good point. I can see this interpretation of things.

[Amphiox]

The hardest part is finding a willing and able cleric, or someone with enough Use Magic Device[/u] to successfully cast from a scroll... assuming he can find a scroll of [i]Raise Dead.

I'm sure Big Daddy T could come up with either one, if he were willing.

Would it add to the story to bring him back? It could be done in story, but what would it add?

It would possibly show yet another sign that Nale is deeper than he looks - and might actually have friends, not pawns and associates.

However, Big Daddy T just lost his cleric....

[Amphiox]

He said it is treated as though not available in each specific instance, when he writes the plot, not that it is actually not available. Clearly it was available, because Dorukan wanted to use it on Lirian (whose body he did not have because Xykon had it as a Zombie) but couldn't without her soul being free.

We can think about True Resurrection in the OotS verse as equivalent to the Philosopher's Stone or the Fountain of Youth, or El Dorado, or the Holy Grail in the real world. It is a legendary artifact/ability that many have heard of, that some desire to find/use, and some perhaps even quest for.

But no one ever succeeds, for one reason or another.

[Jekub]

Desintegrate.

Gust of wind.
Seriusly, does someone believe that the order is naive enough to leave
a body to resurrect?. They have been concerned with that in the past,
after all. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html And True R. Is way
out of what Nale can get. Malack was the head priest of the empire, and
he was only level 12.

[Kish]

Nitpick: Wouldn't he end up with Lolth in the Abyss instead of in Hell/Baator ?
He was Neutral Evil; he's probably in Hades.

[Chad30]

Desintegrate.

Gust of wind.
Seriusly, does someone believe that the order is naive enough to leave
a body to resurrect?. They have been concerned with that in the past,
after all. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html And True R. Is way
out of what Nale can get. Malack was the head priest of the empire, and
he was only level 12.

Because utterly destroying something when they didn't have to has never come back to bite any of them in the rear.

[exenia]

Nale doesn't seem to have a lot of loyalty to party members. Once separated, they're pretty much splitsville. The core of the Linear Guild is him & Sabine, I'm not even sure he has much interest in Thog.

There's also the issue of Z being specifically there to counter V, and V still won the last duel. Nale will want a replacement wizard, sure, but I don't think he'll waste the resources on Z.

[Chad30]

V only won by using other means, and I think it's been implied that Nale didn't care for Thog. One example being the drawn up plan for how to beat Elan, using Thog on rocket skates. Thog's chances of being hit with an anvil were high, while Nale's were low, with the former being acceptable to him but the latter not being acceptable.

There was also that whole "Sometimes he reminds me why we keep him around" statement Nale made once.

I was surprised he cared all that much for Z, but apparently he does.

[Fish]

Dead Zz'dtri is a good motivator for Nale. I could see how this would drive him to madness and revenge. Not ordinary revenge, as in "overblown reaction to imagined slights" (which is Nale's usual method) but actual, heartfelt loss that leads to dire vengeance.

Dead Zz'dtri also thins the ranks of evil villains who are heading for the final Gate. The ending of the story could be confusing and clumsy if there are too many story lines all in the air at once. Oh, it could be done, I grant you, but there are equally valid reasons not to bring him back. At some point in any story you start to wind up ongoing plots, not create more new twists. We may be at that point now.

That said, I prefer reincarnate to resurrection.

[pendell]

My money is on Durkula disposing of the body in a brutal and horrific (but off-panel) way which leaves his current lawful evil alignment in no doubt. Possibly, say, by using Dominate on Belkar and making him eat the body. Considering what Belkar and Vaarsuvius did to the kobold, it would be poetic justice.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[brionl]

At least he can't throw the snake's skeleton at Nale just to mock him. "Your drow friend needs a rez? Oh sure, I'll get my best cleric right on that! Oh, wait, you just dusted him! Guess you'll have to wait!" :smallwink:

Maybe a pile of sand? "Pick out Malak and we'll see what we can do."

[quasit]

Durkon tries to use Resurrection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) to bring back the Draketooths, so being killed by a death effect wouldn't matter.

Tried but to no avail, probably because no Draketooth was willing to come back but also could be impossible due to familicide nastiness (ie: being a death effect up to eleven: thus needing higher levels of magic to bring the victims back to life).
Note that both statements are not mutual exclusive.

[xroads]

Dead Zz'dtri also thins the ranks of evil villains who are heading for the final Gate. The ending of the story could be confusing and clumsy if there are too many story lines all in the air at once.

Very good point.

In fact I'm wondering if this will be the last we see of the Linear Guild in this story arc.

I know they are the pawns of the trio of demons, but the guild has pretty much been devasted with only Nale and Sabine still around. And Nale will probably be hesitant to work with his father in the near future, considering he justed dusted an old friend of his.

[Tris]

Nitpick: Wouldn't he end up with Lolth in the Abyss instead of in Hell/Baator ?
I don't think he's a worshiper of Lolth.

[luc258]

Dead Zz'dtri also thins the ranks of evil villains who are heading for the final Gate. The ending of the story could be confusing and clumsy if there are too many story lines all in the air at once
I read on these forums that supposedly there were two more books coming, not one. While I do not know if that is true, I can very well imagine a final book after the last gate, afterall it seems that the snarl is very differently than expected.

[Fish]

I wouldn't bet too heavily on the number of books remaining, or of the non-appearance of a specific character. Zz'dtri could be brought back ... or not. There are arguments either way. Only Rich knows for sure.

[JCAll]

I have a feeling Durkon is going to throw the body into the Rift, just to see what happens. So either it's unmade by a godkilling abomination, or it's at the bottom of the ocean. Good luck finding it.

I stand by my Ghost theory.

[CowardlyPaladin]

What I think actually will happen? Z stays dead and nothing happens.


What I wish will happen? Nale raises him, because this would give Nale ALOT of character development when it is most needed and would make Z into an intriguing character into an actual interesting character. Remember Nale isn't a socipath (unlike Xykon) he does actually care about his people somewhat, at least Sabrine and to a lesser extend Thog (barbarian sleep over and he seemed at least a bit concerned when he died) so his raising Z would make him a far more interesting character. he seemed to care when Z died too.

[Tragak]

Remember Nale isn't a socipath (unlike Xykon) he does actually care about his people somewhat, at least Sabrine and to a lesser extend Thog (barbarian sleep over and he seemed at least a bit concerned when he died) so his raising Z would make him a far more interesting character. If I could challenge the definition of "sociopath" that most people seem to be using, Robert Hare (creator of the Psychopathy Checklist) distinguishes sociopaths from psychopaths thusly:

Psychopaths (bad mind): biologically incapable of emotions like guilt, shame, sadness, or remorse. When punished for their wrong-doings, they don't get the emotional "I shouldn't have done that," only the intellectual "I shouldn't have gotten caught". With no emotional empathy for other human beings as human beings, the rest of us are simply seen as them-sized lawn gnomes for them to use for whatever they see fit to do so. Think in terms of "Me vs. Them." 20% of the criminals arrested in America.

Sociopaths (bad environment): Grew up in an extremely violent subculture and learned to survive by becoming just as bad as everybody else. Their sense of loyalty, empathy, and conscience are developed healthily enough, but within an extremely antisocial "kill-or-be-killed" context. Think in terms of "Us vs. Them," even if they don't have friends at the moment that they consider (at least close to) equals. 85% of the criminals arrested in America.

While both descriptions were simplified for the non-psychologists like myself, Xykon would certainly be pegged as a psychopath within such a simplification, whereas Nale could very well be a sociopath who truly values his friends like Z or Sabine and just happens to be homicidally ruthless against anybody else.

[Arcanist]

Durkon clearly knocked Zz'dtri's teeth out so it is possible, however unlikely, that Z could be resurrected or through a very liberal interpretation of the Clone spell, could be Cloned if the teeth are converted into his flesh through PoA.

I doubt the Giant will bring Z back though. I do feel a bit of sadness about the character since I figured the two (V and Z) could engage in more Wizard duels against one another, but the character has served his purpose thus far. He functioned as an obstacle for V and helped Xe overcome Xis ego problems. Needless to say, he will be missed... Unfortunately from me, not as much as Malack :smallannoyed:

[Gift Jeraff]

For whatever it's worth, Rich calls Xykon "essentially sane" and Nale "just crazy" in Book 2. Though this is in reference to their goals (realistic world domination versus revenge for the pettiest reasons), not their ability to have friends or whatever.

[Chad30]

I'm not sure how world domination is sane. I've never understood how villains actually intend to run the entire planet, and it's rarely brought up. I don't think it's possible.

[Gift Jeraff]

I feel like Xykon ruling the world would be more of an in name only thing. He's not the type to set up policies and a whole global system.

[Chad30]

I doubt that many "take over the world" villains actually think about what they'd do if they won. That's why I don't think it's really much saner than "I'm going to kill someone because he didn't immediately abandon his allies for a stranger he happened to be related to".

[angry_bear]

I'm not sure how world domination is sane. I've never understood how villains actually intend to run the entire planet, and it's rarely brought up. I don't think it's possible.

When you're as powerful as Xykon, world conquest isn't an impossibility though. Especially when you've got a seemingly legitimate means of forcing a god killing entity to do your bidding. He doesn't know that's not the case, but to his knowledge, he's got a near foolproof plan in motion.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I think they are both insane, in different ways. Xykon has a more rational understanding of the world around him, his own abilities, his minions abilities and situations he puts himself in. Nale is more insane in how he relates to the world, he often totally doesn't understand things, but he can have actual normal relationships. He loves Sabrine, seemed to be actual friends with Z, and had a weird surrogent father relationship with Thog.

[Kish]

Nale was perfectly willing to sacrifice Thog to his anvil plan. Whether his "love" for Sabine (who has no r in her name, btw) is anything close to what most people would recognize as love is...questionable.

If the most positive relationship he has is the one that just literally last strip showed signs of featuring any actual emotion on Nale's part, I'd say he's not doing too well in the relationship category.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Nale was perfectly willing to sacrifice Thog to his anvil plan. Whether his "love" for Sabine (who has no r in her name, btw) is anything close to what most people would recognize as love is...questionable.

If the most positive relationship he has is the one that just literally last strip showed signs of featuring any actual emotion on Nale's part, I'd say he's not doing too well in the relationship category.

Ok I'll concide on Thog partly (Though frankly giving his hitpoints, I don't think an anvil would kill him just hurt) though he did take him to his sleep over and showed concern when he died

However, Sabrine I would say thats love, love where they do horrible things to other people but love. He never even considered cheating on her, when she cheated on him he understood it was because she is a succubus and didn't hold it against her), he has actually been upset whenever she has been hurt or injured in any way, he has been supportive of her when she is down (like being a bad rogue), he defends her when she is not around from Malack's insults, and he has never insulted or belittled her....which considering this is Nale taht is quite an accomplishment. Sabrine loves him too, considering how upset she got after being banished is any indication, she just expresses it in an Alien way, because...she is a demon.

Z and Nale have show hints of friendship before. Nale has never insulted or belittled him, which again is not easy for him, Z saved Nale from being abandoned by Malack at the illusion trap, they killed Malack in such a way which implied they had planned it before hand, indicating a degree of trust Nale has in Z, and when Z died Nale not only seemed actually upset, he also was putting his own life at risk to protect somebody. Remember, when Z was in trouble, Nale didn't insult Durkon, he told him to leave Z alone. now how deep the friendship goes, I"m not sure, but he does have actual normal relationships, which is more than Xykon can say. I mean, does Xykon have any friends? Any normal relationships? He seems to kinda like Redcloak and Jirix (he did force Redcloak to rez him) but thats pretty much it.

[Tiktik Ironclaw]

I'm pretty sure Redcloak raised him because the two were friends, Xykon considered murdering all the hobgoblins when they were planning to leave.

[Emanick]

I'm pretty sure Redcloak raised him because the two were friends, Xykon considered murdering all the hobgoblins when they were planning to leave.

Xykon specifically demanded that Redcloak raise him, though, when Redcloak mentioned almost as an afterthought that Jirix was dead.

[dps]

Xykon specifically demanded that Redcloak raise him, though, when Redcloak mentioned almost as an afterthought that Jirix was dead.

I took it that Xykon had Redcloak raise him so that he could continue to threaten to replace Redcloak with Jirix if needed.

Though apparantly, that was the 2nd time Jirix was rezzed, so maybe not.

[Kish]

Short of Xykon deciding to slaughter the entire hobgoblin horde, there would always be some priest he could threaten to give the Crimson Mantle to.

[Caex]

Short of Xykon deciding to slaughter the entire hobgoblin horde, there would always be some priest he could threaten to give the Crimson Mantle to.

I was about to ask if we ever had any indication that Xykon knew that the Crimson Mantle was the source of Redcloak's power (as it relates to the gates, not as it relates to all those levels of cleric), but a quick glance at the comic where Xykon orders Jirix raised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) suggests that he does. Does anyone have a copy of Start of Darkness on hand to confirm that RC told him of its significance?

Moreover, Xykon's demand that Redcloak raise Jirix rather than simply subbing in some random other hobgoblin (along with his apparent justification that he warranted it by drawing Xykon's attention to the paladin) suggests that Xykon may have had some personal regard for the goblin, just as Cowardly Paladin speculated. This puts that time they spent chumming around watching O-Chul survive a myriad of nasty trials in a new light, though Xykon's later strangulation of Jirix for being the bearer of bad news does remind us that everyone's favorite lich doesn't put a whole lot of stock in friendship.

[Tragak]

, though Xykon's later strangulation of Jirix for being the bearer of bad news does remind us that everyone's favorite lich doesn't put a whole lot of stock in friendship. Though in Xykon's defense (a strange sentence if ever there was one), if you were on oxygen treatment, you lost one of your tanks, didn't know how much time you had before you died, and you thought that your best friend lied about finding it again, wouldn't you be pretty mad at him? Considering that perspective on phylacteries, I'd say that the "Xykon considers Jirix a friend" evidence is a bit more conclusive.

[Emanick]

Though in Xykon's defense (a strange sentence if ever there was one), if you were on oxygen treatment, you lost one of your tanks, didn't know how much time you had before you died, and you thought that your best friend lied about finding it again, wouldn't you be pretty mad at him? Considering that perspective on phylacteries, I'd say that the "Xykon considers Jirix a friend" evidence is a bit more conclusive.

But Xykon isn't on oxygen treatment. He has hundreds of hitpoints and is almost impossible to kill by normal means. His immortality was threatened, sure, but that's par for the course for, like, everyone, all the time. So he hardly had reason to consider his life as being in danger.

[Chad30]

Par for the course for everyone except those who have a phylactery.

[Porthos]

Does anyone have a copy of Start of Darkness on hand to confirm that RC told him of its significance?

Yes.

...

Oh, wait. You don't want a Mathematician's Answer?

Fine then.:smalltongue:

SoD Spoilers
Redcloak says flat out that the knowledge to 'warp the Gate is inherent to the Crimson Mantle'.

So, yes, Xykon knows how important it is.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I was about to ask if we ever had any indication that Xykon knew that the Crimson Mantle was the source of Redcloak's power (as it relates to the gates, not as it relates to all those levels of cleric), but a quick glance at the comic where Xykon orders Jirix raised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) suggests that he does. Does anyone have a copy of Start of Darkness on hand to confirm that RC told him of its significance?

Moreover, Xykon's demand that Redcloak raise Jirix rather than simply subbing in some random other hobgoblin (along with his apparent justification that he warranted it by drawing Xykon's attention to the paladin) suggests that Xykon may have had some personal regard for the goblin, just as Cowardly Paladin speculated. This puts that time they spent chumming around watching O-Chul survive a myriad of nasty trials in a new light, though Xykon's later strangulation of Jirix for being the bearer of bad news does remind us that everyone's favorite lich doesn't put a whole lot of stock in friendship.


He did invite Jirix specifically to the O-Chul torture and bothered to defend him from Redcloak, calling him a cool kid. Jirix also seemed surprised when Redcloak told him not to trust Xykon. Considering their similar sense of humor, I think they were sort of buddies, but Xykon being a terrible person is willing to abandon that he losses his temper. Its possible I suppose that Xykon didn't realize he was strangling Jirix because he was so pissed (remember he seemed a bit confused) however xykon only kinda likes people (Redcloak, that girl from SOD, Jirix) but he doesn't have any friends....except maybe voldemort they might be a good couple

[angry_bear]

Reviving Jirix was a reward for his show of loyalty, not much else. Redcloak had fled from the fight, MitD was "asleep", Jirix, at least tried to help, even though he was outmatched. Just because Xykon knows when to reward a loyal minion, doesn't mean he's friends with him. To Xykon, it's probably no different than giving a dog a bone for being good... Maybe not a bone for Xykon, probably a biscuit...

[Caex]

Though in Xykon's defense (a strange sentence if ever there was one), if you were on oxygen treatment, you lost one of your tanks, didn't know how much time you had before you died, and you thought that your best friend lied about finding it again, wouldn't you be pretty mad at him? Considering that perspective on phylacteries, I'd say that the "Xykon considers Jirix a friend" evidence is a bit more conclusive.

Never thought I’d see that sentence, myself. :P That’s a fair point, though Xykon’s existence isn’t threatened by not having his phylactery close, only by having it destroyed (and even then his body still needs to be destroyed), and Jirix hadn’t lied, he simply had to report that it had been re-lost. Someone who values their friends and respects them as people could likely be quite angry in that scenario, but Xykon’s near killing of Jirix goes quite a bit further. It seems to me like he might enjoy Jirix alive, but when it comes down to it he is just another thing to be killed off when that option is more amusing than keeping him around.

EDIT: Cowardly Paladin says what I was getting at here better about two posts above this. Don’t know how I missed it.


Yes.

...

Oh, wait. You don't want a Mathematician's Answer?

Fine then.:smalltongue:

SoD Spoilers
Redcloak says flat out that the knowledge to 'warp the Gate is inherent to the Crimson Mantle'.

So, yes, Xykon knows how important it is.

I'm an engineer, sir! But yes, that’s what I was looking for.

On the main subject of this thread, though, I feel like I should weigh in on the Nale/Zz’dtri relationship if I’m going to be cloggin’ up the thread like this. Sadly, we don’t have a lot of evidence, but what we have seen of their relationship does intrigue me deeply, and there have been some hints that there is some personal regard between them (at least starting with Z’s “Never stopped” reappearance). I’m really hoping that the background of the Linear Guild gets some significant exposition--in a prequel book, mayhaps?

[tomandtish]

It seems to me like he might enjoy Jirix alive, but when it comes down to it he is just another thing to be killed off when that option is more amusing than keeping him around.

EDIT: Cowardly Paladin says what I was getting at here better about two posts above this. Don’t know how I missed it.

Actually Caex, I think you sum it up well here. Jirix is amusing and useful. As long as he is, he's unlikely to be killed on a whim. The instant he ceases to be either of these, then he's subject to Xykon's whims.

I'm not sure you can call them buddies, because I don't think Xykon has buddies. There are those he plans on killing now, those he plans on killing later, and those who amuse him enough or are useful enough that he has no plans to kill them at present. Jirix is in that third category.

As for Z, I agree with those who are in the "Nale will raise him, but CAN he raise him" camp. I don't see Nale having access to even resurrection. Tarquin may have access, but would he use it? Unknown.