Best single mid-to-high level damage dealing Sorc/Wiz spell?

[Nettlekid]

I have an Apostle of Peace, and I've managed to finagle any one Sorc/Wiz spell onto its spell list. Now, it's got some very good ally buffs, healing, and some "Now c'mon guys, can't we all just not hit anyone?" type spells, but is somewhat lacking in the ability to disable an opponent. I guess Hammer of Righteousness can deal a good amount of damage, but it's not all that satisfying. Naturally, I'd be converting the damage to nonlethal, and so I think something like Disintegrate is a bit...counter to the purpose.

Ideally, I'd like something that offers no save, or a basically inconsequential one (against a rider affect maybe, not the actual damage), and is ideally not of levels 6, 7, or 9. Since I have to prepare them, I don't want to use up spell slots that I'm preparing Heal, Constricting Chains (one of my favorites), and Miracle in.

[Crake]

The orb spells have a close range touch, no save vs the damage, have a rider effect like you described based on the element you're using and scale up to 15d6 damage? 4th level spell. Despite it generally being considered the worst energy type, I'd suggest fire, because the rider effect is Daze, which is pretty damn nice, and you're gonna be converting it into untyped nonlethal damage anyway.

[Nettlekid]

The Orb spells are pretty good, true. 15d6 is pretty decent, though I was hoping for something either uncapped (like Hammer of Righteousness) or with a higher than 1:1 die:CL ratio (like Disintegrate has). I may go with Orb of Fire, though, depending. Glimpse of Eternity also calls to me, because even though it's Will: Half, it can also cause Confusion for 1/3 CL rounds, but it is mind-affecting so it'll be a bit less usable at high levels.

[Aharon]

Spell Fangs, Sor/Wiz 4, Anauroch: Empire of Shade
Streamers, Sor/Wiz 5, Shining South

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wings of Flurry: 4th Level spell, uncaped 1d6/level force damage, AoE (I think 30 ft. radius) and has a Daze rider effect which is negated by save. The only problem is it has terribad range, around 30 ft or so.

[Bonzai]

I like Avasculate. There is a save, but it's not relevant to the spell. Just ::bamf:: half a targets HP is gone. If you twin spell it, they are now quartered. It's a pretty nice ability to have late game, being able to drop something from 1,000 hp down to 500 (250 if you twin it) in a round without a save to negate. Beats out meteor swarm for a single target.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Isn't Avasculate [Evil]?

[Nettlekid]

Spell Fangs doesn't strike me as excellently damage-dealing, since it's pretty short range, 1d6+2 attacks that aren't even touch, doing 2d6 each. Maximum is 16d6 damage, which is less than CL per level, so I don't know if that's worth it.

Streamers on the other hand look very good. I've seen the argument that people have made that they only ever get a single attack, but even that would be okay, since it ends up being 20d10 damage at level 18. But if they get to attack for every single action taken by the enemy, then it could be hitting upwards of 40d10, 60d10 per turn. And that's really something indeed. I also like that it only attacks if the enemy makes an action, making it a bit like a less-specialized End to Strife. This might be the spell I choose. I wonder, if they take an action to attack the streamers, do the streamers getting attacked get their own attack before the enemy attacks them?

Wings of Flurry is strong, but it's Ref: Half (so Evasion messes it up) and as you said, poor range. But that's irrelevant because it's not available to me. I said Sorc/Wiz spell, but that's Sorc only.

Avasculate is a bit odd. For one, it is Evil, so I wouldn't be able to use it because of that. Technically it doesn't deal damage, so while I couldn't convert it to nonlethal, it's not breaking the "don't do damage" vow, I guess, technically. But technically doesn't really matter; it IS doing harm, and exploding blood vessels out of the target is pretty non-peaceful. Also, for a single damage-dealing spell, Avasculate is great for softening up high HP opponents but pretty bad at KOing them. If their HP is 32, it would take five castings to bring them to 1.

[Keneth]

I wonder, if they take an action to attack the streamers, do the streamers getting attacked get their own attack before the enemy attacks them?

Yes. They can be destroyed by other creatures though.

[Maginomicon]

Wings of Flurry: 4th Level spell, uncaped 1d6/level force damage, AoE (I think 30 ft. radius) and has a Daze rider effect which is negated by save. The only problem is it has terribad range, around 30 ft or so.Not just 30ft radius, but 30 range on top of that, meaning it's a 30-ft radius burst that you can bend up to 30 ft away from you (to a maximum effective reach of 60 ft). Further, it's "designated" targets, so it doesn't harm you or your allies.

[Maginomicon]

In any case, consider the "Overwhelm" spell. Will negates, but it does exactly enough nonlethal damage to knock them out, period.

[Nettlekid]

In any case, consider the "Overwhelm" spell. Will negates, but it does exactly enough nonlethal damage to knock them out, period.

Overwhelm is pretty good, but the fact that it's mind-affecting limits its utility. If I was using a 6th level or lower mind-affecting attack that needs them to fail a Will save, I might as well just go with Hold Monster or Dominate Person, since the effect of taking them out of the fight is much the same.

[Mithril Leaf]

If you can live with a Fort save for half and Spell Resistance, you probably can't beat out Dalamar's Lightning Lance for raw damage at level 4. It does 3d6 bludgeoning + (CL up to 10)d6 electricity damage per lance, and fire 1 lance per 5 CL. A very solid spell if you just want things to get hit hard.

[CRtwenty]

I like Avasculate. There is a save, but it's not relevant to the spell. Just ::bamf:: half a targets HP is gone. If you twin spell it, they are now quartered. It's a pretty nice ability to have late game, being able to drop something from 1,000 hp down to 500 (250 if you twin it) in a round without a save to negate. Beats out meteor swarm for a single target.

I'll second this. I had a Lich make heavy use of this during a fight against my PCs. Scared the living hell out of them. Especially since the Lich had a Red Dragon minion and the Avasculate suddenly put them one failed save away from a one hit KO from his breath weapon.

[Maginomicon]

Overwhelm is pretty good, but the fact that it's mind-affecting limits its utility. If I was using a 6th level or lower mind-affecting attack that needs them to fail a Will save, I might as well just go with Hold Monster or Dominate Person, since the effect of taking them out of the fight is much the same.Perhaps, but you asked for damage spells, with an emphasis on nonlethal damage. You can't get much better than "instant KO from just the right amount of damage". Besides, Hold Monster and Dominate Person have their own problems (Hold Monster just gets them to stop fighting but doesn't K.O. them and they get a new saving throw every round, and Dominate Person has more of an evil-like flavor than you'd probably want on your character.)

[Aharon]

Spell Fangs doesn't strike me as excellently damage-dealing, since it's pretty short range, 1d6+2 attacks that aren't even touch, doing 2d6 each. Maximum is 16d6 damage, which is less than CL per level, so I don't know if that's worth it.

True, I misremembered. I used them with an Artificer via Concurrent Infusion (Spell Storing Item) so I got it with a 1st level infusion slot. Plus it's personal, so it can be persisted to have an ok weapon for the whole day. Unless you're fighting Überchargers all day, the temp hp are a useful buffer in case an attack hits - which happens from time to time even with the best protection. Plus, either the opponent wastes actions on destroying the fangs, or you got something to do all day and can keep infusion slots/spell slots in reserve for when you really need them.

It's not as useful for you, I agtree.

[Lateral]

Not just 30ft radius, but 30 range on top of that, meaning it's a 30-ft radius burst that you can bend up to 30 ft away from you (to a maximum effective reach of 60 ft). Further, it's "designated" targets, so it doesn't harm you or your allies.

That's not how that works. No part of the spell effect can extend outside the range, so it just means that it's a burst centered on you that goes out 30 feet. (I suppose you could center it somewhere else, but it would get cut off at 30 feet away anyway, and it only affects your enemies, so all you'd be doing is shrinking the area.)

[Maginomicon]

That's not how that works. No part of the spell effect can extend outside the range, so it just means that it's a burst centered on you that goes out 30 feet. (I suppose you could center it somewhere else, but it would get cut off at 30 feet away anyway, and it only affects your enemies, so all you'd be doing is shrinking the area.)
You maybe might be able to make an argument of that if it were an emanation, but it's a [spherical] burst spell that has a range. All [spherical] burst spells with a range value act similar to a grenade. The center of the effect is thrown up to the maximum of its range, and then there's a [spherical] burst radius centered on that spot, which obviously means that the maximum distance from you that it can effect is that of the range+radius. The fact that the range and radius are the same distance for Wings of Flurry is of no consequence. It's thrown up to 30 ft, and then has a 30 ft radius.

[TuggyNE]

You maybe might be able to make an argument of that if it were an emanation, but it's a [spherical] burst spell that has a range. All [spherical] burst spells with a range value act similar to a grenade. The center of the effect is thrown up to the maximum of its range, and then there's a [spherical] burst radius centered on that spot, which obviously means that the maximum distance from you that it can effect is that of the range+radius. The fact that the range and radius are the same distance for Wings of Flurry is of no consequence. It's thrown up to 30 ft, and then has a 30 ft radius.

It would be logical if that were the case, but it's not.


A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.

Range is a hard limit on spell effects.

[Maginomicon]

It would be logical if that were the case, but it's not.
Range is a hard limit on spell effects.
That's beyond asinine. This is a case where common sense should clearly trump RAW. Why the hell else would Wings of Flurry mention a range? If it was meant to be a burst centered on you, it would have said it's a burst centered on you (they've used that terminology innumerable times before in other effects).

[Deophaun]

That's beyond asinine. This is a case where common sense should clearly trump RAW. Why the hell else would Wings of Flurry mention a range?
Maybe so that you can avoid hitting allies standing next to/on the other side of you.

[TuggyNE]

That's beyond asinine. This is a case where common sense should clearly trump RAW. Why the hell else would Wings of Flurry mention a range? If it was meant to be a burst centered on you, it would have said it's a burst centered on you (they've used that terminology innumerable times before in other effects).

Either because they wanted to let you offset it within the range, or because they weren't paying attention to Core rules.

[Raendyn]

Don't you have some nasty Vows that force you to NOT DEAL DMG?

[TuggyNE]

Don't you have some nasty Vows that force you to NOT DEAL DMG?

The OP says he has a trick to convert it all to non-lethal.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The best one out of the box is Wings of Flurry.

If you have a TON of metamagic feats and Arcane Thesis, Scorching Ray can be melded into quite the monster, just due to its potential single target damage and base spell level. AT helps make the MM feats cost less/nothing.

Even then, I think an equally min-maxed WoF beats Scorching Ray.


That's beyond asinine. This is a case where common sense should clearly trump RAW.

Funny, that's how I feel about the claims that WoF is uncapped for damage, despite the DMG table saying 4th level arcane area spells should cap at 10d6.

I agree with the others that it's 30 ft out from you, whether WotC fubar'd the exact correct way to write it up as such or not.

[Maginomicon]

Funny, that's how I feel about the claims that WoF is uncapped for damage, despite the DMG table saying 4th level arcane area spells should cap at 10d6.No, that's not "common" sense. That's a case of conflicting RAW sources on the notion of fairness. The average person coming into the game wouldn't ask about damage caps, much less what they should be based on spell level.

[StreamOfTheSky]

No, that's not "common" sense. That's a case of conflicting RAW sources on the notion of fairness. The average person coming into the game wouldn't ask about damage caps, much less what they should be based on spell level.

No, it is common sense. DMG sets a general rule for the damage caps spells should have.

WoF makes no mention of a cap to the damage (but also never outright says it has no cap, either), and some how people jump to...:

1. It does not list a cap.
2. Therefore it has no cap!
3. "What, that DMG rule? That's a general rule. Specific trumps general."
*points out that nothing other than the person's own twisted logic pointed to WoF's no-cap being a specific "rule" by omission in the first place*
4. "Shut up! The general rule exists for when there's no other guidance. WoF gives no guidance about a cap, therefore it has no cap, and specific trumps general so the DMG rule doesn't apply!"

Ah, circular logic...

[sleepyphoenixx]

To be fair, pretty much every other direct damage spell lists a cap.
The rule you're refering to also refers to the creation of custom spells iirc.

[Maginomicon]

The rule you're refering to also refers to the creation of custom spells iirc.Exactly! The whole "DMG says this" is referring to guidelines for creating custom spells, not what every spell extant should follow. Wings of Flurry was created by RAW to do what it says it does. The simplest reason that can be guessed as to why the writer let it get away with that having no listed cap balance-wise is that it's a sorcerer-only spell.

Please, can we get back to the OP now?

[Tvtyrant]

Depends. You can use Chain Spell+Reach Spell+Twin Spell on Launch Bolt for an 8th level spell which will get you 40 attacks at level 20. If you make yourself large the damage from the bolts goes up, you can make the ammo into Brilliant Energy ammo to make it more likely to hit, and if you have a friendly DFI Bard the damage becomes insane.

For instance a truly devoted DFI bard could get you up to 16d6 damage on each bolt (640d6 if all hit) and averages 2240 if all of them hit. They probably will not all hit, but even if only half of them hit it auto-kills everything in sight.

The damage drops down to 160 if all hit and you use medium ammo, but that still isn't too bad. 280 average if you make yourself large.

[Spuddles]

Not just 30ft radius, but 30 range on top of that, meaning it's a 30-ft radius burst that you can bend up to 30 ft away from you (to a maximum effective reach of 60 ft). Further, it's "designated" targets, so it doesn't harm you or your allies.


Depends. You can use Chain Spell+Reach Spell+Twin Spell on Launch Bolt for an 8th level spell which will get you 40 attacks at level 20. If you make yourself large the damage from the bolts goes up, you can make the ammo into Brilliant Energy ammo to make it more likely to hit, and if you have a friendly DFI Bard the damage becomes insane.

For instance a truly devoted DFI bard could get you up to 16d6 damage on each bolt (640d6 if all hit) and averages 2240 if all of them hit. They probably will not all hit, but even if only half of them hit it auto-kills everything in sight.

The damage drops down to 160 if all hit and you use medium ammo, but that still isn't too bad. 280 average if you make yourself large.

DR and resistances will be a pretty big limiting factor with those, which is something to consider. There are a ton of spels that affect arrows in splats, though. It would be very easy to stack on a ton of spells.