IFCC alignments

[Tiiba]

Cedrik is supposed to be Chaotic Evil. But I'm not sure I've seen him do anything chaotic. In fact, I find it hard to believe that three beings can have three different ideologies, yet complete each other's sentences like identical twins.

Also, I'll piggyback a question about Qarr. The fiends implied that because he, for whatever reason, promised to help V, he would be willing to carry V's severed head to a ship full of powerful enemies, who would kill him on sight. Lawful alignment is this serious a business?

[DaveMcW]

And Lee has a chaotic succubus working for him. The whole point of the IFCC is to set aside their Law/Chaos conflicts and focus on Evil.

The V/Quarr suicide plan was full of holes, and only meant to provide V some semblance of a choice to make him feel more guilty when she accepted the original plan.

[zimmerwald1915]

Cedrik is supposed to be Chaotic Evil. But I'm not sure I've seen him do anything chaotic.
Sabine makes him sound fairly chaotic when she describes him furthering the Directors' plans through his intuition. Of course, she's not totally reliable. She might be lying or might be deceived herself.


In fact, I find it hard to believe that three beings can have three different ideologies, yet complete each other's sentences like identical twins.
Come to my family's Thanksgiving some time. :smalltongue:


Also, I'll piggyback a question about Qarr. The fiends implied that because he, for whatever reason, promised to help V, he would be willing to carry V's severed head to a ship full of powerful enemies, who would kill him on sight. Lawful alignment is this serious a business?
No, it's not. Qarr himself called the plan ludicrous.

[Anarion]

Come to my family's Thanksgiving some time. :smalltongue:


Ditto. Completing sentences and working in tandem is mostly an effort in spending time together and getting to know a person. Even if the three of them do have different alignments, they've made themselves aware of their differences, focused on their strengths, and created a very effective united team.

Plus, the sentence completing thing adds to their overall theme and presentation is important when you're trying to run an archfiend operation.



No, it's not. Qarr himself called the plan ludicrous.

While that plan was ludicrous, I do think that Qarr's nature as a lawful being might have resulted in him keeping his word had he formally sworn an oath to do a task. I doubt he'd make any such oath though.

[zimmerwald1915]

While that plan was ludicrous, I do think that Qarr's nature as a lawful being might have resulted in him keeping his word had he formally sworn an oath to do a task. I doubt he'd make any such oath though.
The Directors stated that he had already made the equivalent of such an oath through agreeing to "assist [Vaarsuvius] in this matter". That is ludicrous.

[Morquard]

Lawful alignment is this serious a business?

For mortals? Heck no.
Even the most Lawful of Paladins could go "You know what, screw what I said earlier, I'm out of here". It's highly unlikely he will do so, but he has that choice.

Outsiders are a different matter entirely. Devils for example, like Qarr, are literally made out of the Essence of Law and Evil.
Just like humans are made out of carbon and water mostly, and all that entails. We can't be anything else except that.
And they can't be anything else but Lawful and Evil. That's why you can "trust" a contract with a Devil, because you know he has to stick to it. He will find loopholes around it of course to screw you over anyway, which is why it's generally a bad idea, but even those loopholes are still covered by the original contract.

You could say it's physically impossible for a Lawful outsider to break a contract like that. Just as it's physically impossible for a Human to breathe 100% nitrogen air and not die.

Of course if Qarr's previous statement actually included his help in this matter? That might be up for debate. If it did, then yes, he'd be kinda forced to go through with it.

[137beth]

For mortals? Heck no.
Even the most Lawful of Paladins could go "You know what, screw what I said earlier, I'm out of here". It's highly unlikely he will do so, but he has that choice.

Outsiders are a different matter entirely. Devils for example, like Qarr, are literally made out of the Essence of Law and Evil.
Just like humans are made out of carbon and water mostly, and all that entails. We can't be anything else except that.
And they can't be anything else but Lawful and Evil. That's why you can "trust" a contract with a Devil, because you know he has to stick to it. He will find loopholes around it of course to screw you over anyway, which is why it's generally a bad idea, but even those loopholes are still covered by the original contract.

You could say it's physically impossible for a Lawful outsider to break a contract like that. Just as it's physically impossible for a Human to breathe 100% nitrogen air and not die.

Of course if Qarr's previous statement actually included his help in this matter? That might be up for debate. If it did, then yes, he'd be kinda forced to go through with it.
There are examples of Good-aligned fiends in D&D, including a (canon) succubus paladin:smalltongue:

[Bird]

So...how long before one the IFCC betrays the others? (Once they have what they want is the obvious answer, but that's nebulously defined.)

Or are they all planning betrayals? Will two team up against the third?

Is one of them more likely to start betrayalmageddon than the others? Cedrik, because he's chaotic? Or has Lee found a loophole in their agreement?

I mean, as interesting as it would be for them to overcome their essential natures...

Come on.

[factotum]

There are examples of Good-aligned fiends in D&D, including a (canon) succubus paladin:smalltongue:

If you mean Fall-From-Grace, you have to remember she was having to struggle against her essential Chaotic Evil nature all the time--it wasn't as simple as her waking up one day and thinking, "I know! I'll be Lawful Good now.".

[Kiraxa]

If you mean Fall-From-Grace, you have to remember she was having to struggle against her essential Chaotic Evil nature all the time--it wasn't as simple as her waking up one day and thinking, "I know! I'll be Lawful Good now.".

I think he's referring to http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a

[mhsmith]

Sabine makes him sound fairly chaotic when she describes him furthering the Directors' plans through his intuition. Of course, she's not totally reliable. She might be lying or might be deceived herself.


Come to my family's Thanksgiving some time. :smalltongue:


No, it's not. Qarr himself called the plan ludicrous.

It's entirely possible the whole point of that "proposal" was to force V to be making the moral decision to take the deal as opposed to blithely thinking it was clearly the only way.

If V had actually taken the deal, maybe she lives or maybe they're just lying and it's a total trap. Who knows?

[zimmerwald1915]

It's entirely possible the whole point of that "proposal" was to force V to be making the moral decision to take the deal as opposed to blithely thinking it was clearly the only way.
It's not only entirely possible. According to the commentary in Don't Split the Party, that was the entire point of the proposal. As such, whether Qarr is actually bound to put himself in mortal danger for V's family's sake by his very vague offer "let me help" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html) is immaterial. He might do it; he was the one who proposed trying to get a message to V's "pals on the boat" and V had to remind him that he'd probably die. On the other hand, he might not. It took one of the Directors (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) to come up with the "kill yourself" plan, and Qarr didn't seem enthusiastic about it.

Point is, there's uncertainty here. Which is enough to undermine Morquard's argument that because Qarr is made of law, he must go along with the plan if V asked him to.

[137beth]

It's not only entirely possible. According to the commentary in [u]Don't Split the Party[/i], that was the entire point of the proposal. As such, whether Qarr is actually bound to put himself in mortal danger for V's family's sake by his very vague offer "let me help" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html) is immaterial. He might do it; he was the one who proposed trying to get a message to V's "pals on the boat" and V had to remind him that he'd probably die. On the other hand, he might not. It took one of the Directors (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) to come up with the "kill yourself" plan, and Qarr didn't seem enthusiastic about it.

Point is, there's uncertainty here. Which is enough to undermine Morquard's argument that because Qarr is made of law, he must go along with the plan if V asked him to.
I wouldn't be surprised if Qarr agreeing to that plan would mean that Qarr had to go along with it.

I don't, however, think that Qarr was actually bound to that outrageous "alternate plan", though, that was just something crazy the IFCC made up to make V feel more guilty in the long run.

[Kish]

If you mean Fall-From-Grace, you have to remember she was having to struggle against her essential Chaotic Evil nature all the time--it wasn't as simple as her waking up one day and thinking, "I know! I'll be Lawful Good now.".
Pretty sure Fall-From-Grace is Lawful Neutral actually. Not Lawful Good, anyway, and a cleric, not a paladin.