Idea for preventing undead apocalypses

[TuggyNE]

Raise every corpse you bury as a minor zombie, and then destroy it promptly. This way, they can't be re-animated (as anything at all), and revive undead is just an expensive way to get a useless low-level zombie.

Of course, this has two major flaws: first, it requires casting an [evil] spell; second, it does nothing about the most dangerous method of gathering corpses to animate, namely conquest. Still, it's the most efficient way I know of to guarantee that no necromancer can do anything useful with your dead bodies.

[Silvanoshei]

Or.... you could kill the necromancers? lol :smallconfused:

[TuggyNE]

Or.... you could kill the necromancers? lol :smallconfused:

But how efficient is that? :smalltongue: Seriously, that's generally a difficult thing to do, since even if you kill all the current crop of (highly secretive, individually rather powerful) necromancers, there's likely to be some new ones popping up eventually. So it's basically an ongoing thing, where if any slip through, they cause massive problems.

Not to say that killing necromancers is a bad idea, just that it can't really be your sole line of defense.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Cremation is probably more cost effective than raising every corpse you bury and you don't have to cast an [Evil] spell. That at least takes care of low level necromancers.

For the ones who are actually dangerous the most important thing is vigilance.
Keep an eye out for signs of necromancers and move to destroy them before they can assemble an army of undead.
Have your clerics of anti-undead gods regularly check burial sites to make sure they are still hallowed.
Put out bounties for tips that lead to necromancer arrests/killings.
Assemble a network of covert operatives that travel the lands and look for signs of necromancy and try to infiltrate necromancer cults/assassinate necromancers in high positions.
In short, found an order of necromancer and undead hunters.

You don't necessarily need/want to prevent all undead creation.
Having a small time necromancer occassionaly raise a few zombies and terrorize a village is good for business.
It allows you to ride to the rescue and show the commoners who to tithe to. :smallbiggrin:

The point is to stop them before they make like Szass Tam and gather a power base and assemble an army.
At that point you've probably already lost.

[Spuddles]

Do it with a Warlock so you don't need material components and there's no risk of the Animator having a change of heart about putting down his creations.

Though wouldn't that make a great plot?

A society that raises those that die, so they can destroy them. But there's a conspiracy afoot! The raised corpses aren't being destroyed, but amassed for a coup.

[Norin]

Though wouldn't that make a great plot?

A society that raises those that die, so they can destroy them. But there's a conspiracy afoot! The raised corpses aren't being destroyed, but amassed for a coup.

Just in to say:
Oooh! I like this! Mind if i steal this idea for some shenanigans? :smallamused:

[AuraTwilight]

Raise every corpse as a Deathless.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Raise every corpse you bury as a minor zombie, and then destroy it promptly. This way, they can't be re-animated (as anything at all), and revive undead is just an expensive way to get a useless low-level zombie.

Of course, this has two major flaws: first, it requires casting an [evil] spell; second, it does nothing about the most dangerous method of gathering corpses to animate, namely conquest. Still, it's the most efficient way I know of to guarantee that no necromancer can do anything useful with your dead bodies.
You could probably just crush the bodies so their useless for any corporeal undead. Nothing stops you form taking the body of a zombie corpse and using create greater undead to make a shadow.

[Crake]

The real threat is the conjurers summoning demons and devils, now THAT'S what you should be focusing your efforts on. Undead are trivial problems compared to a planar invasion!

[TuggyNE]

Do it with a Warlock so you don't need material components and there's no risk of the Animator having a change of heart about putting down his creations.

Ahh, yeah, that works better.


You could probably just crush the bodies so their useless for any corporeal undead. Nothing stops you form taking the body of a zombie corpse and using create greater undead to make a shadow.


(A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.)

I read that as, essentially, you can't ever create any undead of any sort out of that again. One and done. If that's not true, then of course the whole thing falls apart, but that's the assumption I'm working from.

[cerin616]

Ahh, yeah, that works better.
I read that as, essentially, you can't ever create any undead of any sort out of that again. One and done. If that's not true, then of course the whole thing falls apart, but that's the assumption I'm working from.

See, I read it as "you cannot animate it again" meaning you can make things that arn't zombies or skeletons.

[ahenobarbi]

But why destroy those undead? Use them as cheap workers for simple tasks. You can use them for transport (pulling carts, rowing boats), farming (have them pull plow & plant seeds), building (carry loads, mix concrete), ...


Do it with a Warlock so you don't need material components and there's no risk of the Animator having a change of heart about putting down his creations.

Though wouldn't that make a great plot?

A society that raises those that die, so they can destroy them. But there's a conspiracy afoot! The raised corpses aren't being destroyed, but amassed for a coup.

:smallbiggrin:

[ellindsey]

This is probably why Pathfinder introduced the Sanctify Corpse spell. First level cleric spell, makes it impossible for the corpse to ever be made into an undead. It's standard practice in civilized towns and cities in my campaign.

[The Viscount]

It relies on what the rules mean when they say "destroyed." It could be that they simply need a term other than "double dead" or it could be that they mean the undead in question are chopped into tiny pieces, or completely gone in the case of incorporeal undead.

As for preventing undead, mundane destruction seems the best way.

[Lord Vukodlak]

It relies on what the rules mean when they say "destroyed." It could be that they simply need a term other than "double dead" or it could be that they mean the undead in question are chopped into tiny pieces, or completely gone in the case of incorporeal undead.

As for preventing undead, mundane destruction seems the best way.
The undead type states that when such a creature is reduced to 0 hit points or below it is destroyed. So it probably means double dead.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by TuggyNE
So it's basically an ongoing thing, where if any slip through, they cause massive problems. ...Not to say that killing necromancers is a bad idea, just that it can't really be your sole line of defense.

One assumes there are secret orders of warrior-clerics doing exactly this. Living in vigilance, watching for the next outbreak of necromancers, sort of thing.


Originally Posted by cerin616
See, I read it as "you cannot animate it again" meaning you can make things that ar[e]n't zombies or skeletons.

Seems that way to me, too.


Originally Posted by ellindsey
This is probably why Pathfinder introduced the Sanctify Corpse spell. First level cleric spell, makes it impossible for the corpse to ever be made into an undead. It's standard practice in civilized towns and cities in my campaign.

Long before Pathfinder, Defenders of the Faith gave us Burial Blessing, which is also Clr 1 and, unlike the PF version, automatically permanent. I can't imagine why this wouldn't be a standard part of burial rituals.

[Silvanoshei]

But how efficient is that? :smalltongue: Seriously, that's generally a difficult thing to do, since even if you kill all the current crop of (highly secretive, individually rather powerful) necromancers, there's likely to be some new ones popping up eventually. So it's basically an ongoing thing, where if any slip through, they cause massive problems.

Not to say that killing necromancers is a bad idea, just that it can't really be your sole line of defense.

I'm rather confused by this logic. You're saying that you'd rather raise every single dead person on the planet, to prevent them being raised, then just go after said people that are going to necro them? Erm lol.

[Palanan]

Also, there are probably many, many family members who won't be happy with this approach. Not to mention anyone else who gets wind that this might be in their future. Who wants to be raised and then destroyed?

Not sure who would be doing the raising-and-destroying routine anyhow. The Alliance Against Potential Undead? Really, in terms of comparative effort, it makes a lot more sense to target the people (or other beings) actively doing the raising.

[Fortinbro]

There's always enslaving the population under a military dictatorship and disposing of bodies through cannibalism. I've seen it work wonders, but those silly paladin types make such as fuss over it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's always enslaving the population under a military dictatorship and disposing of bodies through cannibalism. I've seen it work wonders, but those silly paladin types make such as fuss over it.

If you have no problems with slavery and cannibalism you probably aren't opposed to just raising the undead yourself to expand your armies and keep the slaves under control. :smallbiggrin:

[Fortinbro]

If you have no problems with slavery and cannibalism you probably aren't opposed to just raising the undead yourself to expand your armies and keep the slaves under control. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, but that would be so boring and....overdone! Living servants are just so much more entertaining! It's simply adorable when they to impress you with imaginative acts of cruelty and oppression.

[Spuddles]

Can't you just dispel burial blessing? That's hardly a permanent solution.


I'm rather confused by this logic. You're saying that you'd rather raise every single dead person on the planet, to prevent them being raised, then just go after said people that are going to necro them? Erm lol.


Also, there are probably many, many family members who won't be happy with this approach. Not to mention anyone else who gets wind that this might be in their future. Who wants to be raised and then destroyed?

Not sure who would be doing the raising-and-destroying routine anyhow. The Alliance Against Potential Undead? Really, in terms of comparative effort, it makes a lot more sense to target the people (or other beings) actively doing the raising.

No one is getting raised. They're gettin animated. Big difference.

[TuggyNE]

I'm rather confused by this logic. You're saying that you'd rather raise every single dead person on the planet, to prevent them being raised, then just go after said people that are going to necro them? Erm lol.

No no, it's a defense-in-depth solution. Certainly try to kill all necromancers you can find, and probably hallow your burial yards too just to prevent spontaneous undead creation. But this adds another layer of defense to make it still more difficult to get anything done.

[The Viscount]

Alternatively, you could always go with the New Orleans method and have above-ground burials if the climate is similar. Apparently there after about a year or two the bodies are reduced to skeletons, at which point you can bury the bones in a mixed-up pile. The animate spells need "mostly intact corpses". Presumably if the bones are mixed-up they won't work. The other possibility is find out the limit for "mostly intact." If missing an entire leg is too much, bury everyone sans one leg, and the legs in a different area.

[Fortinbro]

Alternatively, you could always go with the New Orleans method and have above-ground burials if the climate is similar. Apparently there after about a year or two the bodies are reduced to skeletons, at which point you can bury the bones in a mixed-up pile. The animate spells need "mostly intact corpses". Presumably if the bones are mixed-up they won't work. The other possibility is find out the limit for "mostly intact." If missing an entire leg is too much, bury everyone sans one leg, and the legs in a different area.

Sounds like a good way to create boneyards (Libris Mortis).

[LimeSkeleton]

I'm sorry, I just have to say, the mere title of this thread made me crack up. Hahaha.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by TuggyNE
No no, it's a defense-in-depth solution...this adds another layer of defense to make it still more difficult to get anything done.

I'm still not clear on who, exactly, would be responsible for animating and insta-destroying every single recently deceased person on the planet. How does that work, design-wise?

You'd need some centralized government assigning destructo-animators to every town, burg and hamlet across the land. You'd quickly end up with a massive theocratic bureaucracy, entirely focused on "processing" the population as quickly and permanently as possible.

I can't see the population sitting still for that. Most people, and definitely most PCs, would rather take their chances with the necros. And unless this theo-bureacracy has complete, all-pervasive control of every landmass around the globe, the necros will simply go offshore for their staffing needs.

[Spuddles]

I'm still not clear on who, exactly, would be responsible for animating and insta-destroying every single recently deceased person on the planet. How does that work, design-wise?

You'd need some centralized government assigning destructo-animators to every town, burg and hamlet across the land. You'd quickly end up with a massive theocratic bureaucracy, entirely focused on "processing" the population as quickly and permanently as possible.

I can't see the population sitting still for that. Most people, and definitely most PCs, would rather take their chances with the necros. And unless this theo-bureacracy has complete, all-pervasive control of every landmass around the globe, the necros will simply go offshore for their staffing needs.

You'd be surprised what you can get away with, as long as you're providing bread & circuses.

If you've got the numbers and levels to raise dead masses of civilians, any insurrection is going to be drafted into undeath to put down the other half of the rebellion.

It's a more specific case of the function of the state-
a government is a monopoly of force
in this case, it's the monopoly of necromantic force

[Palanan]

If those are the assumptions, then the necrocracy, if you want to call it that, will be "drafting" a lot of undead, but somehow they'll never get around to destroying them.

:smallamused:

Really, it becomes a question of who controls the undead that are being created. Notions of destroying them will vanish like smoke.