Not sure how to respond to player actions

[Azoth]

So my players have managed to bowl me over in our latest session.

To set the stage if I may:

They ended up accidentally entering the demiplane of a near epic NPC due to some plot related circumstaces. This demiplane is nearly paradise in tangible form to most good aligned creatures. To this effect I mean that the landscape is flat grassy fields that are dotted with groves of all manner of fruit bearing trees, giant calm ponds filled with fish for food, natural hot springs for bathing/swimming, no true predatory creatures, predictable weather (as in it only rains on Mondays from 1AM til 3AM level). In the center of this plane there is a massive complex. It is the only townlike structure on the plane. Inside its walls is a giant town/school. Those who dwell here know no hunger, poverty, lasting illness or strife. The entire place is dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge and skill of nearly all forms. Food can be gathered/grown or gotten for free from communial castings of create food/water, healing is administered for free, combat training is done against the various summon X lines of spells crafted into reseting traps or sparing matches with always on merciful weapons, there are buildings larger than cities on the material plane for crafting and as libraries housing books on all subjects.

The person in charge of this is litterally a Saint with almost all of the Vow of X feats. Those who live here were either born here or personally brought over by the "Empress" (title given by the people not self appointed) so suffice to say crimes and evil don't exist here besides the occassional fist fight or white lie. NO ONE pings on detect Evil here at all. (if someone were to be Evil in any form of alignment she would give them a parting care package and send them to the material plane so as not to allow others to be corrupted if they didn't accept an atonement spell)

My players marvel at the place as they wander around after being escorted inside. They aren't even disarmed as no one registers as evil. After talking to the "Empress" and making sense motive checks and putting her in a zone of truth for the entirety of the conversation (she willingly failed the save) my players have decided she is somehow mentally controlling everyone in town and raising a personal army to attack somewhere and truly rule it. They are currently in their modest accomodations (I.E. an appartment that can house 6 comfortably) that were bestowed on them for the duration of their stay, for free, plotting a way to kill the "Empress" and free these people from her mental control.

I have sheets for all the major NPCs should a fight break out, and know how each one would fight, so that isn't a problem for me. I am just trying for the life of me to figure out how/why after they know she is not evil, lying, or openly manipulating people, but instead trying to create a eutopia for good peaceful people their first thought is to kill her and destroy her work.

Has anyone else experienced something involving their players that made them have a major moment of "WTF guys really?!"

[Hyena]

The thing is, now that I'm reading it, it's just too good to be true. Even when you're saying she doesn't have any uteriour motives, I simply can't believe this. No one that selfless could ever be called "Empress".

[PersonMan]

No one that selfless could ever be called "Empress".

This is a bit odd, but stranger things have happened.

It could be that they have the 'the DM sent us here, so there must be conflict and a problem to solve/evil to fight!' mentality about it.

[Drachasor]

The thing is, now that I'm reading it, it's just too good to be true. Even when you're saying she doesn't have any uteriour motives, I simply can't believe this. No one that selfless could ever be called "Empress".

As the OP stated though, that's a name the people gave her, not one she calls herself.

Even ignoring that, it's not evidence of malign intent at all. People have irrational tastes, after all, including an irrational like for a title. Just because a title is a poor choice does not mean there's anything truly wrong with the situation.

Edit: To say nothing of how you can have "bad" titles that stick around or crop up because of cultural heritage or any number of other social factors.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I think they need to drop some divinations, ASAP, before they get themselves killed. On topic, no, never that mindbogglingly paranoid.

[Drachasor]

This "personal army" thing is so bizarre when you consider this is a culture focused on learning and knowledge. From what the OP said there's no evidence they have any weapons or military training. The Players, as players can be wont to do, have reached an insane conclusion and are running with it.

[Mirakk]

It could be that they have the 'the DM sent us here, so there must be conflict and a problem to solve/evil to fight!' mentality about it.

This is most likely it. Players think if it exists, I must be able to kill it. To fight this, I sometime intentionally set up scenarios where trying to kill things is only going to cause problems. Once when the players were trying to track down a sorceress, they wound up in the room where she supposedly was. There was a cat on the desk, and a little girl in the middle of the room.

After checking the little girl for magic to determine if it was the sorceress, they killed the cat, assuming it was her familiar. The little girl started to bawl and wanted to know why they killed her kitty. The sorceress was nowhere to be found that day, and the little girl turned out to be of royal blood. They took her home, and she explained that they killed her kitty and were mean people. No reward was given for her safe return, and they were promptly booted from the kingdom. Just imagine if they'd killed the little girl right off the bat instead!

[danzibr]

Reminds me of Myria from BoFIII. Only less evil. And more utopia.

I would ask your players how they arrived at the conclusion, "she is somehow mentally controlling everyone in town and raising a personal army to attack somewhere and truly rule it."

I mean, you made it very clear she's good, telling the truth, etc. Do they know she's a Saint? Like has the template? And has all those exalted feats?

[CaladanMoonblad]

Utopia by definition is unattainable. This may be the cultural background of your players if they were raised in a Western Civilization. Plus, almost every Cthulu-esque story line uses a "too good to be true" front.

Here is my suggestion to alleviate their fears... have them witness a few Celestials visiting the Empress for her advice, such as a Solar or perhaps an Archon. Another suggestion might be... have the Empress ask the heroes to rescue some worthy soul on their world, whose selflessness has garnered him/her an invitation to the demiplane. Make it so Job-esque in terms of suffering and goodness that the players cannot mistake it for mind control.

Another thought would be to let them use Spellcraft for some kind of mind affect; even let them use the Empress' library to get an insanely high bonus or for this effect. Let your players trust in their Spellcraft DC 40 check to rule out magical domination. Let them use Detect Magic. Let them get over their prejudice of utopia via their optimized skill sets (what most players trust over their GM).

[Eldariel]

The thing is, now that I'm reading it, it's just too good to be true. Even when you're saying she doesn't have any uteriour motives, I simply can't believe this. No one that selfless could ever be called "Empress".

I dunno, "empress" doesn't really command anything but leadership. Hereditary title can pass onto any kind of a person. Indeed, this sounds very much like the ideal queen required to make monarchy work.

[angry_bear]

What is your intention with this paradise dimension? Maybe create an actual threat for the PC's to deal with, rather than letting them create one for themselves...

[Incorrect]

Quick! Give them a plot hook and lead them out of there before someone dies.
They will either work for or against the saint.

[Fouredged Sword]

I agree with the above clue-by-four. Maybe have her seek their aid in repelling an evil her vows prevent her from facing effectively. As a player, all too commonly, powerful NPC's fall in two piles. There are NPC's who give you a quest, and NPC's who you quest to get rid of. Put her clearly in one pile rather than the other.

Also, show a petition system for people seeking to gain entry. Maybe something that requires living for years in charity work or such. Any population needs some new blood, and it makes it clear that people WORK to get into this city, they are not mind controlled and taken.

EDIT - Or be evil and have someone beat them to the punch and kill the NPC. Then have the party deal with the fallout of the deamon invasion and pillaging of the once pristine plane.

OR - have someone obviously evil tempt them to do just that. Have a deamon sneak into the city. A sucubus or something... Have it temp them in such an obvious way that they stop and think. Wheels within wheels.

[Gerrtt]

If it were me I'd wait till the killed someone that they shouldn't and then have them escorted from the paradise. Their only punishment should be that they don't get to be part of it anymore...their sin is distrust and the choice to behave in such a manner that would get them barred from the plane. After all, whoever they kill that they shouldn't can certainly be raised easily by someone with this level of power.

[Yuki Akuma]

For some reason, people have it in their heads that "Kingdoms" are good and "Empires" are evil. Despite both being the same thing.

I blame Star Wars.

[Hyena]

I dunno, "empress" doesn't really command anything but leadership. Hereditary title can pass onto any kind of a person. Indeed, this sounds very much like the ideal queen required to make monarchy work.
Uh... No. Kings and queens existed everywhere, and anyone could have named himself king if he ruled enough territory. Calling domain an empire, on the other hand, is a different story - empires are huge and only gained by conquest. Every real life empire declared itself to be the heir of the original one. Eastern Roman Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Russian Empire - every single one. And we know what the original Roman Empire was famous for.

...well, the Holy Roman Empire should not be on the list, because it's name is simply a mockery of Bizantium, but it was still considered a heir and still actively waged war, didn't it?

[Gerrtt]

And we know what the original Roman Empire was famous for.


Pies and various spiced meats?

[Azoth]

The demiplane does have something akin to a police force. They have never seen a true fight, but they are the inhabitants that wished to master the arts of martial prowess and military tactics.

The "Empress" isn't defenseless and won't be easy to kill if they can. After all, she created the plane herself. The reason that she isn't epic is that she has cast Genesis enough times to keep herself from leveling. She has instead chosen to keep expanding the plane she lives on so that more people can be saved from suffering.

She specializes in BFC and incapacitation spells. So she can hold off the party until help arrives to subdue them with their merciful weapons if need be.

I had intended for this plane to be a safe haven for them to fall back when in need. Since one can find almost anything here for a fair price or free depending on what it is. They would be granted sanctuary here and be given express permission to enter the plane as they saw fit.

Later on in the campaign I had intended a falling out of sort. Where she asks them not to return for fear of the planes safety. One of those, "we will aid you when we can but not here in our home because those who seek you may follow you" type of deals.

Their almost instantaneous decision to attempt to kill her and destroy the paradise she created flabbergasted me. I was just wondering if anyone else has experienced a similar experience.

[Drachasor]

I'm sure if they become hostile then Banishment could be used to force them out of the plane.

[SethoMarkus]

Not sure if this would really help if the players have already made up their minds, and you may have already included it during their initial Q&A with the Saint, but make sure that nothing is hidden. If the players ask a question, the Saint answers it truthfully and directly- no political beating around the bush.

Though, it really seems like this is something you need to talk to the players about OOC. I mean, if anyone rolled a Sense Motive check, their character believes her to be just what she says she is. There's no suspicion of some ulterior motive or hidden agenda, they simply see her as good to her word. It really seems like this is an OOC issue with the players; an expectation for something to be amiss. Address the characters in game showing that nothing is hidden in the shadows, and address the players out of game to show that yes, they were brought to the demiplane for a reason; no, that reason wasn't to kill the Saint.

EDIT: I'll also note, however, that the players might objectively come to the conclusion that this is NOT paradise. Regardless of how amazing the demiplane may seem, and whether there is any mind control, it is robbing the inhabitants of growth. How does one know what happiness is without experiencing sorrow and loss? How does one know what it is to be sated and contented if they never had to go hungry and unsatisfied? Again, this is all philosophical grey area. It's okay if the players come to the conclusion that they don't like this "paradise", you just need to show them that the Saint doesn't mean anyone harm- she's a good guy, not a BBEG. She just might be a good guy of a different variety than they themselves are.

[Drachasor]

Not sure if this would really help if the players have already made up their minds, and you may have already included it during their initial Q&A with the Saint, but make sure that nothing is hidden. If the players ask a question, the Saint answers it truthfully and directly- no political beating around the bush.

Though, it really seems like this is something you need to talk to the players about OOC. I mean, if anyone rolled a Sense Motive check, their character believes her to be just what she says she is. There's no suspicion of some ulterior motive or hidden agenda, they simply see her as good to her word. It really seems like this is an OOC issue with the players; an expectation for something to be amiss. Address the characters in game showing that nothing is hidden in the shadows, and address the players out of game to show that yes, they were brought to the demiplane for a reason; no, that reason wasn't to kill the Saint.

A Sense Motive does not confirm they aren't lying. It merely would tell you that AS BEST AS YOU CAN DETERMINE they are telling the truth. There's a certain kind of player/group that will decide the "enemy" is JUST THAT GOOD and discount any and all contrary evidence. Heck, there are enough ways in D&D to completely fake things -- I can think of a few off the top of my head that would pass the Zone of Truth test and any Sense Motive no matter how high the bonus.


EDIT: I'll also note, however, that the players might objectively come to the conclusion that this is NOT paradise. Regardless of how amazing the demiplane may seem, and whether there is any mind control, it is robbing the inhabitants of growth. How does one know what happiness is without experiencing sorrow and loss? How does one know what it is to be sated and contented if they never had to go hungry and unsatisfied? Again, this is all philosophical grey area. It's okay if the players come to the conclusion that they don't like this "paradise", you just need to show them that the Saint doesn't mean anyone harm- she's a good guy, not a BBEG. She just might be a good guy of a different variety than they themselves are.

And why don't they experience sorrow and loss? Does the person you fancy always fancy you? No. Does the research you are engaged in always pan out? Do you always get the job you wanted? In general is your every expectation always met? No, no no!

Getting rid of hunger is a good thing. Getting rid of disease is a good thing. Getting rid of being hacked up by a sword, burned to death, etc. is a good thing. This nothing wrong with a peaceful society that doesn't have to live in fear of war, disease, or starvation. It does not make life less meaningful.

People who say these things are just trying to find some justification for how the universe is naturally a fairly cruel and unforgiving place. A sad attempt to find meaning in the meaningless.

That said, nothing says the PCs have to be remotely intelligent on such matters. On the other hand, tossing the people out of this paradise and into the crappy prime material would not remotely be a Good act in D&D terms.

[Fouredged Sword]

And why don't they experience sorrow and loss? Does the person you fancy always fancy you? No. Does the research you are engaged in always pan out? Do you always get the job you wanted? In general is your every expectation always met? No, no no!

Getting rid of hunger is a good thing. Getting rid of disease is a good thing. Getting rid of being hacked up by a sword, burned to death, etc. is a good thing. This nothing wrong with a peaceful society that doesn't have to live in fear of war, disease, or starvation. It does not make life less meaningful.

People who say these things are just trying to find some justification for how the universe is naturally a fairly cruel and unforgiving place. A sad attempt to find meaning in the meaningless.

There is some interesting literature that deals with this concept. Now, it happens to be Harry Potter Fanfiction, but it states an interesting concept.

The idea is that, maybe one day, people will look back at history and see death, suffering, and want the same way we look back at being eaten by wolves. Yes, it technically still happens every once and a while, but it isn't something that happens commonly, and we live richer lives because of it, not in spite of it.

[Xelbiuj]

You should pull a ""Hungry are the Damned" which is a parody of "To Serve Man".

Creepy them out, play on their mistrust, then when they destroy paradise, chastise them for it.

[EyethatBinds]

Were this my game I'd probably find the players coming to the same conclusion, but they would be right. I'd just rub my hands together and enjoy the players slaying a plane filled with good aligned people. Then have a devil offer them some form of reward for their hard work and tireless devotion to the cause of evil.

My group's problem is they always take things on face value, so my more subtle villains are rarely caught.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Uh... No. Kings and queens existed everywhere, and anyone could have named himself king if he ruled enough territory. Calling domain an empire, on the other hand, is a different story - empires are huge and only gained by conquest. Every real life empire declared itself to be the heir of the original one. Eastern Roman Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Russian Empire - every single one. And we know what the original Roman Empire was famous for.

...well, the Holy Roman Empire should not be on the list, because it's name is simply a mockery of Bizantium, but it was still considered a heir and still actively waged war, didn't it?

You actually have to go back further. Alexander spread the Macedonian mind prior to Rome's rise, and prior to Alexander was Cyrus the Great of Persia. Empires had more tools in their toolbox than simple conquest; they had economic might and diplomacy. Conquering is what happened when the other two tools failed to expand territory.

Also, Rome pioneered the "franchise" - that is one of the reasons they were so successful (and the fact they imported much of their culture from Greece). They were incredibly well organized, and they tended to keep the local power structure in place rather than replace it with a satrap; they invited the conquered to be part of the Empire's trade network, becoming a win-win for everyone. But yes, many up and coming empires tried to emulate the power and majesty of previous empires, and you can see this in Rome's origin story (which traces its roots back to storied Troy, of The Illiad and The Odyssey).

[SethoMarkus]

A Sense Motive does not confirm they aren't lying. It merely would tell you that AS BEST AS YOU CAN DETERMINE they are telling the truth. There's a certain kind of player/group that will decide the "enemy" is JUST THAT GOOD and discount any and all contrary evidence. Heck, there are enough ways in D&D to completely fake things -- I can think of a few off the top of my head that would pass the Zone of Truth test and any Sense Motive no matter how high the bonus.

I am not trying to suggest that this would prove the Saint was telling the truth or that it would dissuade the Players (after all, the Player knows when they roll poorly). I am saying that it would mean the Characters have no reason to suspect anything. A farm boy who grew up in the middle of no where that has only ever heard vague stories about treasure chests will not know what a mimic is; a player will. If the player controlling that farm boy walks into a dungeon and refuses to touch the chest because he suspects that it is a mimic, that is poor roleplaying and a form of metagaming.




And why don't they experience sorrow and loss? Does the person you fancy always fancy you? No. Does the research you are engaged in always pan out? Do you always get the job you wanted? In general is your every expectation always met? No, no no!

Getting rid of hunger is a good thing. Getting rid of disease is a good thing. Getting rid of being hacked up by a sword, burned to death, etc. is a good thing. This nothing wrong with a peaceful society that doesn't have to live in fear of war, disease, or starvation. It does not make life less meaningful.

People who say these things are just trying to find some justification for how the universe is naturally a fairly cruel and unforgiving place. A sad attempt to find meaning in the meaningless.


And all of that is irrelevant because I wasn't debating philosophy, I was merely showing that the Players might not agree with this paradise no matter how the DM attempts to sell them on it. The Players don't have to think the space is a paradise, the Characters don't even need to think the space is a paradise; the DM only needs to prove to the Characters that they believe it is a Good space and there is no BBEG controlling it.

I apologize if I was not clear, but you were so far off from the spirit of what I was trying to convey that I wonder if you even grasped the least of what I was attempting to say. The OP seems like an OOC problem in which the Players are not accepting the proof their Characters are presented with, merely because of some preconceived notion that anything the DM places before them is meant as a reward or meant to be killed.

[Diarmuid]

In a place like this, why would the practice and mastery of the martial arts be allowed/supported? In a true utopia, those things are wholly unnecessary. If it's purely for physical health, there are far better ways beyond violence, however it's negated via merciful weapons/healing, to attain physical fitness. The practices still involve pain and intend to do harm to others.

Why is violance against summoned creatures supported, is their pain not worth avoiding?

At least, this is the kind of thinking that I could see someone coming to which would lead to their actions.

[Raven777]

The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect. It was a work of art. Flawless. Sublime. A triumph only equaled by its monumental failure.

It's probably just a case of humans being unable to trust perfection.

[Mithril Leaf]

Your players have probably been reading too many tropes, this sort of adventure turns up all the time. 90% of the time, they'd be right, so it's fairly easy to see why they might jump to the wrong conclusion. If worse comes to worse, remember you have an epic spellcaster who needs to protect her realm, so you can always bust out the standard issue Tippyverse Shadesteel Golems.

[ahenobarbi]

Uh... No. Kings and queens existed everywhere, and anyone could have named himself king if he ruled enough territory. Calling domain an empire, on the other hand, is a different story - empires are huge and only gained by conquest. Every real life empire declared itself to be the heir of the original one. Eastern Roman Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Russian Empire - every single one. And we know what the original Roman Empire was famous for.

That it could not conquer a small Gallic village?

[ZamielVanWeber]

That it could not conquer a small Gallic village?

I love you man. You're the best ahenobarbi.Uhh... on topic... I have been known to Elder Mountain Hammer my through doors so much I just called the maneuver "Skeleton KEy"

[Drachasor]

I am not trying to suggest that this would prove the Saint was telling the truth or that it would dissuade the Players (after all, the Player knows when they roll poorly). I am saying that it would mean the Characters have no reason to suspect anything. A farm boy who grew up in the middle of no where that has only ever heard vague stories about treasure chests will not know what a mimic is; a player will. If the player controlling that farm boy walks into a dungeon and refuses to touch the chest because he suspects that it is a mimic, that is poor roleplaying and a form of metagaming.

This is quite different from the case of a mimic. Their reason to suspect something could simply be that believe it is too good to be true. They certainly would know magic can do a LOT of things they'd never suspect and that their capabilities have limits. Therefore it is quite possible for someone to fool them. Knowing they can be fooled means they do not trust their senses.

It's completely different than acting prepared for encounters with published monsters that your character would have no idea existed.


And all of that is irrelevant because I wasn't debating philosophy, I was merely showing that the Players might not agree with this paradise no matter how the DM attempts to sell them on it. The Players don't have to think the space is a paradise, the Characters don't even need to think the space is a paradise; the DM only needs to prove to the Characters that they believe it is a Good space and there is no BBEG controlling it.

I apologize if I was not clear, but you were so far off from the spirit of what I was trying to convey that I wonder if you even grasped the least of what I was attempting to say. The OP seems like an OOC problem in which the Players are not accepting the proof their Characters are presented with, merely because of some preconceived notion that anything the DM places before them is meant as a reward or meant to be killed.

And one of my points is that characters that believe that are not Good.

One of the problems with the DM trying to prove something like this is that disproving a negative is very difficult. Evidence that the Empress isn't lying and covering everything up can be dismissed as being faked. Heck, this is a caster with 9th level spells, so frankly pretty much any evidence could be faked. So it's not even paranoid to be aware of that, and it is far from unreasonable for characters that have travelled to other planes to be aware of just how much magic can reshape reality.

[Fouredged Sword]

I'd also like to point out that the empires is likely aware that they are plotting, and of what they are plotting. Even if she simply asks the gods every week or so about plots vs her pet kingdom, their plotting will come to her attention regardless of their actions.

I would then invite them for tea, and have her be slightly offended but aware they are acting with good intentions. She should then ether seek to assure them of her intentions or ask them to leave.

[Drachasor]

I'd also like to point out that the empires is likely aware that they are plotting, and of what they are plotting. Even if she simply asks the gods every week or so about plots vs her pet kingdom, their plotting will come to her attention regardless of their actions.

I would then invite them for tea, and have her be slightly offended but aware they are acting with good intentions. She should then ether seek to assure them of her intentions or ask them to leave.

Or she or anyone else in the plane with a moderate to high sense motive will probably notice something. It isn't like all the PCs have a great Bluff. A hunch is DC 20, and any questions from there against individual PCs will involve their bluff checks.

[SethoMarkus]

--Snip--

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

My impression from the OP is that the DM handed a Player an orange as a prop. In game, the DM, though an NPC, told the Character "Here is an apple." The DM handed the Character an apple. The Character looked at the apple. The Character took a bite out of the apple; it tasted like apple. The Character said "It's an orange!"

Yes, it is possible for there to be in-character reasons to still be paranoid towards the Saint, but nothing in the OP mentions that these Players have had their Characters act paranoid in the past.

If you see the situation differently, then I cannot do anything to change that nor am I attempting to. I simply find it silly for the Characters to behave the way they are, and I feel that the Players are acting on notions that exist outside of the game.

[Sheogoroth]

I think there's a part of me that loves it when things like this happen.
A chance to force the players into a 'What have I done!?' moment.

Maybe the 'empress' is naive, maybe the whole plane is naive after generations of scholarly pursuits. Maybe these players manage to kill her. Then when things start going to hell, they can realize the full extent of their actions and they can do a little internal alignment struggle for destroying nirvana.

I've never had my players mistake something that large, usually I'll pitch an npc at them and they'll think he's evil. Similar, but not quite the same. You could let them persist in the doomed world they have created, if you think there's a way to smack them in the face for it down the road- but if it will extremely negatively impact your long-term scenarios then you can just make her the epic she ought to be.

[GybeMark]

To bring out an older reference, this reminds me of a line in The Matrix -- the first world the machines created was a paradise, and the humans immediately rejected it and revolted.

In terms of how to handle the PCs, some options might be:
- some new bad guy actually DOES try to create an army of slaves -- and the Empress is powerless to stop them (and needs the PCs help). Maybe prove the Empress is uber-good by "forgiving" the bad guy after their defeat
- one of the citizens of the demiplane gets the same idea (and actually starts hurting others), and the PCs must stop them (and realize that the guy is bonkers)
- The above try to follow the rule of "show, don't tell" but every rule has to be broken now and then ("folks, the Empress is not creating an army, and I put a lot of work into the other obvious adventure that you're not pursuing, so would you throw me a bone here...")

[Haluesen]

This is extremely odd. I've had my players be unpredictable but never be so paranoid. It's weird, and I imagine probably a little overbearing. I don't really have any advice other than what has been said here; try to show them that she really is good, even if it has to be through a quest.

Also, since you asked about it happening to others, I have a little story. Not about players being paranoid or making radical thought processes, but about players doing actions you don't expect. A portion of characters has a separate goal from the rest of the team, to break into a mansion belonging to a fairly powerful (for their low level) mage and steal a pass they needed to progress where they were. I set up stats for enemies, devised traps, planned ways they could go and how to get there. So what did they do? Enagaged in a stealth/con by bluffing the guards that they were beggars in need of assistance, allowing the guards to bring them part way into the building, then sneaking through the rest. The only fight they had was against some animated object guards, and when they found the pass they decided to not only leave the other loot that was there, but actually left money for the noble mage as payment for stealing. :smalleek: Not that it was bad or anything, it was just so unexpected. Now I set up other similar break in adventures to expect this.

[underlaud]

I have had a group that was like this, their mindset was always slash slash kill kill then question. The Empress is a high level caster, who can simply knock them off her plane. I mean, she created it, so it would be assumed that she can control who comes in and out.

Though if you really want to drive in that she is good, allow them to attack her and have a Trumpet Archon, or some other celestial host come to her defense (though the idea of having one of them come to her to speak about things was a good one to.)

[Drachasor]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

My impression from the OP is that the DM handed a Player an orange as a prop. In game, the DM, though an NPC, told the Character "Here is an apple." The DM handed the Character an apple. The Character looked at the apple. The Character took a bite out of the apple; it tasted like apple. The Character said "It's an orange!"

Yes, it is possible for there to be in-character reasons to still be paranoid towards the Saint, but nothing in the OP mentions that these Players have had their Characters act paranoid in the past.

If you see the situation differently, then I cannot do anything to change that nor am I attempting to. I simply find it silly for the Characters to behave the way they are, and I feel that the Players are acting on notions that exist outside of the game.

First off, there's none of that weird DM giving the player something to represent something different a character got stuff going on. That just confuses the issue.

I certainly think the players are acting silly. They ARE leaping to conclusions and seemingly planning on killing someone based on that leap. That's rather insane.

That said, if you assume a high level caster in D&D is going to try to trick you...then you have to take it as a given that they can pull off a near perfect deceit. At least in social encounters -- combat is much trickier. It's far from crazy to not entirely trust your senses in D&D (and to a lesser extent this is also true in the real world.

Paranoia in the past may or may not have be shown by the characters. I doubt they were bastions of sanity though given their current behavior. That said, it is silly to expect well-roleplayed characters to behave consistently since real people are not consistent.

All I am really saying is that this isn't a metagame problem. It's one of the more common problems where players jump to a bizarre conclusion and run with it. These are very different things.

[ahenobarbi]

I love you man. You're the best ahenobarbi.Uhh... on topic... I have been known to Elder Mountain Hammer my through doors so much I just called the maneuver "Skeleton KEy"

Thanks :smallbiggrin:

On topic: I think you shouldn't try to change what your players (and by extension their characters) think. Firstly because that's unlikely to succeed, secondly because it's likely to reduce fun.

Rather you should try to go with whatever they decide to do. As Fouredged Sword and Drachasor pointed out this will not be unnoticed. "Empress" managed to defend the plane for quite some time so most likely she (or her staff) divines to prevent as many threats to plane peacefulness as possible. There probably are also some highly combat-capable people to handle any threats they could not be divined.

Anyways they started plotting and (I guess) don't have enough protection from divinations to go unnoticed. Now, I wouldn't invite them to the empress, rather I'd do something more like a young, obviously very worried person approached them and tells them that they must talk (PM me to mail you a cookie if they don't swallow this (plot) hook, line and sinker). Turns out this is a cousin of a member of Plane Protection Team (Diviners Division) who overheard conversation of the diviner that some adventurers are plotting to assassinate the "Empress" and asks them to protect her from the danger (that is from their own plot).

(of course players should never learn that in fact divinations revealed that letting young one "accidentally" overhear the conversation is the best method to resolve the conflict).

Chances are your players will not give up the plan anyway. If it is so, once they make a first aggressive roll, they are instantly transported out of plane, to place chosen by the "Empress" together with standard "goodbye" provisions and a letter (sorry guys to the very last round I hoped we could cooperate, but you made your choice. I hope we can meet again peacefully, or something like that).

Basically they were wished out of the plane, together with a messanger creature (that took provisions and letter, dropped them and went back to the plane).


I certainly think the players are acting silly. They ARE leaping to conclusions and seemingly planning on killing someone based on that leap. That's rather insane.

Well yes, but I think it's better to let them be insane than to make them feel railroaded.

[pteromath]

I suggest you roll with it. As other posters have said, it's weird, but it's also kind of cool. I think your real question is... are they right? or are they wrong?

As you have it planned, they're making a huge mistake. That could have some interesting consequences. Maybe you make it easy for them and they DO succeed... and then find total proof of her innocence, maybe in a diary, or something.

Or maybe... they're right? Maybe she is part of some conspiracy. Maybe she doesn't even know it... maybe there's a bigger evil at play.

I wouldn't suggest trying to force them to change their behavior or plan, but I also wouldn't have them fail and be arrested, unless you have a good idea on how to get them out of prison and back in the thick of things.

There should be consequences for them trying to (or succeeding) in killing a beloved public figure who has done nothing wrong... but more important than "realism" is to make those consequences fun to play.

[cerin616]

I don't see the problem here. you wouldn;t question this if it happened to you? accidentally stumble into a utopia? where not a single person acts out of selfish desires? where everything si perfect and wonderful? hell, my characters first reaction would be "Dream" and then "psionic mind control"

It would take quite a bit of convincing that this was all just exalted good at work. Like if someone just hands you a big fat puch of gold coins. you first wonder "why" and then you wonder "should I keep it" and then you find out it was stolen and the town guard throws you in prison.

[Eldariel]

There should be consequences for them trying to (or succeeding) in killing a beloved public figure who has done nothing wrong... but more important than "realism" is to make those consequences fun to play.

This depends 110% on the players. I, for example, derive most of my enjoyment of the game from the verisimilitude of the world. If I **** up that bad, I expect to at the very least have to fight for my freedom against an overwhelmingly superior adversary and lose, get imprisoned and call that the end of the campaign unless the party pulls off something spectacular.

As a DM, you probably have a decent idea of where the players fall on this spectrum and if not, you can ask.

[Phaederkiel]

All I am really saying is that this isn't a metagame problem. It's one of the more common problems where players jump to a bizarre conclusion and run with it. These are very different things.

I am quite of the opinion that this is a metagaming problem. There is a reason YOU should roll their sense motive and just tell them: you believe her.

What I would do: If they would fight her, let them. Make some memorable event at the very beginning (for example, her casting) and then make her a quite easy boss (so it is a short fight), then show the demon invasion, then let them wake up, fully armed, the empress still alive.

"I give you a second chance to see reason. I hope you give me second chance to tell truth."

[lsfreak]

I'd let them play it out. Most likely they won't succeed, and be banished: she wishes them well, and hopes they become better people, but their paranoia means they no longer have access to the training, knowledge and wisdom of the people of her realm until they prove themselves good. You may decide to partly preempt this by doing as others said, and having them help her non-violently take out an evil organization, such as imprisoning the leaders and allowing those coerced by threat or economic necessity to go free, and offering those that wish it a place in the demiplane. I'd include things like offering food and escort for the journey home (or just teleports), counseling for those who suffer mental trauma from being forced to do terrible things, and so on.

If they do succeed, there's several options: one is nothing particularly happens, except they are banished for causing death, and they are left with the hollow, non-threatening "defeat." This could even be combined with the above; after all, resurrection magic isn't that hard. However, I like more the idea that some of the people begin to believe that even in the face of utopia, some people will cause evil. They become a powerful splinter faction that believes for the sake of the safety of the good, they good must be locked away from others. As they gain power, the demiplane becomes more and more isolationist, and without the temperance of knowing what evil actually looks like, the group begins finding "evil" in its membership. The PC's find it later and realize it's turned into the fascism they thought it was in the first place.

[cerin616]

I am quite of the opinion that this is a metagaming problem. There is a reason YOU should roll their sense motive and just tell them: you believe her.

What I would do: If they would fight her, let them. Make some memorable event at the very beginning (for example, her casting) and then make her a quite easy boss (so it is a short fight), then show the demon invasion, then let them wake up, fully armed, the empress still alive.

"I give you a second chance to see reason. I hope you give me second chance to tell truth."

See, I like that seeing your roll can add this swing to it. it shouldn't just be "roll a die, and based on that your character either fails and gets the opposite or succeeds and gets the true effect"

getting a low die roll and not believing someone (even though you succeeded) is pretty much the same as being paranoid about something, which almost anyone in their life has done at some point. If something is too easy to believe, then you are less likely to believe it.

Getting a high roll and assuming you succeeded is the same as being overconfident in your ability. turns out, their ability to lie is way better than you expected.

Adds a certain mutability you wont get otherwise.

[Oscredwin]

There is some interesting literature that deals with this concept. Now, it happens to be Harry Potter Fanfiction, but it states an interesting concept.

The idea is that, maybe one day, people will look back at history and see death, suffering, and want the same way we look back at being eaten by wolves. Yes, it technically still happens every once and a while, but it isn't something that happens commonly, and we live richer lives because of it, not in spite of it.

While reading this, I'm sitting under some art with the line, "I know you now. You are the shadow that Death casts into the world. And Death is not something I will ever embrace. By science and magic and mind, I will end you. And people won't have to say goodbye, ever again."

[Fortinbro]

My players would be extremely suspicious as well, since a society that pure and idyllic run by flawed mortals seems highly unlikely. They might approach it with a "this has to be too good to be true" mindset.

[Deadline]

Their almost instantaneous decision to attempt to kill her and destroy the paradise she created flabbergasted me. I was just wondering if anyone else has experienced a similar experience.

There are a few possible reasons for this:


They aren't buying what you are selling, because what you are selling falls firmly in the "too good to be true" category. Seriously, all these people live happily and freely without trouble, worry, or conflict? In short - BS. Paranoia is justifiable.
The "it's a utopia!" card is played often, and pretty much universally badly. I'm sure you think your utopia is great, but odds are good you might be the only one. One man's utopia is another man's dystopia. Alternatively, your players might just want to set your snowflake on fire.
Your group may be the "why are we here if there isn't something to kill?" type.


There is clearly a disconnect between you and your players here. Talk to them and tell them what's up, so the situation doesn't explode.

[Tathum]

Only the innkeeper in the starting town can be trusted.

Everyone else, everywhere else is subject to suspicion.

This is speaking as a player. If you've just rolled up a PC and you're not starting mid battle in a caravan being ravaged by goblins and their Hobgoblin commander, then you're just pulling into a tavern where you meet a nice guy with rooms at a reasonable rate and maybe a guy in town to point to who needs help with a kobold problem.

Any guy that starts you out on your way to glory and has Greyhawk Brandy behind the counter is 100% trustworthy.

Now that Paladin of Heironeous that runs the local church ... don't trust that bastard for a second!

[Eldariel]

Only the innkeeper in the starting town can be trusted.

I have never in my life trusted any innkeepers in the whole game (as a player; many of my characters are quite trusting, unfortunately). The assassination/theft attempts at night are way too frequent for them to have nothing to do with it.

[joca4christ]

Or why not be really crazy...and let them be right. Sure, it messes up the story/setting you've painstakingly created, but hey..those wacky players are bound to do anything. Let them dictate the story a bit, it may be more compelling.

You could just play it out as you would have, and have them take stuff on and lose big time. So then, when they aren't killed, have the Empress express her mercy, give them a redemption quest or never benefit from their aid again.

You could go with my first suggestion, and then, just before the players die horrible deaths from this massive evil, have them wake up, point out it was just a dream, and watch them go crazy trying to avoid their perceived Prophecied deaths.

Have fun!

[Drachasor]

I am quite of the opinion that this is a metagaming problem. There is a reason YOU should roll their sense motive and just tell them: you believe her.

What I would do: If they would fight her, let them. Make some memorable event at the very beginning (for example, her casting) and then make her a quite easy boss (so it is a short fight), then show the demon invasion, then let them wake up, fully armed, the empress still alive.

"I give you a second chance to see reason. I hope you give me second chance to tell truth."

That's not how Sense Motive works, especially if someone isn't bluffing. And honestly, if someone is bluffing, I don't think running it as mind control on PCs makes for a good game.


Or why not be really crazy...and let them be right. Sure, it messes up the story/setting you've painstakingly created, but hey..those wacky players are bound to do anything. Let them dictate the story a bit, it may be more compelling.

You could just play it out as you would have, and have them take stuff on and lose big time. So then, when they aren't killed, have the Empress express her mercy, give them a redemption quest or never benefit from their aid again.

You could go with my first suggestion, and then, just before the players die horrible deaths from this massive evil, have them wake up, point out it was just a dream, and watch them go crazy trying to avoid their perceived Prophecied deaths.

Have fun!

I'd recommend strongly against changing things so they are right. That would just teach them that any crazy idea they get in their heads is true. It's good for the players to be wrong now and then.

[Sith_Happens]

Personally, I like the "Empress invites them to tea and asks why they want to kill her" idea. If they directly accuse her of being evil, she can laugh it off and cast Luminous Armor (which only targets Good creatures) on herself in front of them.

[Zanfire]

I only skimmed through so maybe something like this has been suggested, but in a counter to "prove she's good by showing she isn't hiding anything" make her be hiding something. Have her and her elite advisors or what have you be covering something up. Go all out trying to keep this huge secret. Make it a real challenge for the PCs to uncover. It'll help to validate their belief that something is amiss. However, have the conspiracy be something that proves she's good, maybe even in a slightly foolish way. Maybe the only way she's able to maintain the paradise is by sacrificing part of her soul? Or she gained the power to do so by making some kind of deal at the crossroads, and her end of the deal has come due? Have her be covering up some deep dark secret that isn't so deep, dark & evil after all. Something along these lines might help the players accept that they're wrong (about part of it) while still feeling like they were right all along (about part of it) and gives some interesting side quests;p

I've had something similar happen with players before, where I set up a "spirits of the lamd" vibe and had the locals hit towards it. I'd set up several natural obstacles that the PCs would have an incredibly hard time passing on their own, but each was the home of an themed spirit that could help them across. However their first instinct was to charge right in and attack the spirit. Almost ended up getting themselves killed. I reiterated a few of the villagers hints OOC at the begining of the next session and they got the hint for the next time.

[Lord Haart]

laugh it off and cast Luminous Armor (which only targets Good creatures) on herself in front of them.She could UMD the alignment, though!

I'm of the opinion that the situation requires no railroading the conflict away (on the other hand, providing them a good alternative quest would be fair). If they are so sure that they have to overthrow her rule, let them go for it. It won't be easy, it can be made into a campaign as interesting and plan-demanding as good ol' "overthrow the eeeevil lich", and if they win, let them reap the fruits of their labor somewhere in Ravenloft. Tragic misunderstandings and paranoia-based slaughters happen, and the role of an evil guy who's convinced he's doing the right and justified thing is not reserved only for BBEGs.

On the other hand, providing them with opportunities to think about what they'll replace her rule with, what they will do to prevent chaos from ensuing and to let them know they just pinged on Detect Evil after slaying those mind-controlled drones — all of this would be a fair warning. If they decide to think about all of it later, Ravenloft is this way.

[dascarletm]

I was just wondering if anyone else has experienced a similar experience.

Oh yes. I recently started a new campaign with a friend and some friends of his I hadn't really met before.

DM Knowledge: A group of con-men attempting to get illicit docking fees for the players ship show up in full army and naval regalia, however their costumes have some noticeable flaws.

Players see: some military dressed men show up, but the outfit and medals/insignia don't match up. For example the man in the naval outfit has an army general insignia instead of an admirals.

They instantly unload on the con men, right in port of a large city. Seeing as they were weak and low level they were slain on the first turn while they attempted to run when weapons were drawn.

Kill everything out of place!

[#Raptor]

I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but if you still intend to let your players see the truth, I'd have an idea.

Surely there a few people that don't like that Empress doing the good work of the good gods and all that, no?

And by people I mean Devils or Daemons.
Certainly they would like to see the Empress drown in the blood of her citzens.
Have them contact your party and make them some devilish good offer for the Assassination of the Empress.

By their enemies you shall know them. :smallsmile:

If you want to be a bit less obvious about it, you could have the devils/daemons attempt to put up some deception ("I'm Archangel Goody McGood and we need you to slay the evil empress!") though in their current state of mind they might just fall for it and go into full-blown "burn the witch!!!" mode.
Depends on if they are just paranoid towards the empress or are paranoid towards everything and everyone they meet I guess.

Whatever advice out of the many suggestions given here you go with, I'd really like to hear about the outcome.

[Traab]

I suggest you roll with it. As other posters have said, it's weird, but it's also kind of cool. I think your real question is... are they right? or are they wrong?

As you have it planned, they're making a huge mistake. That could have some interesting consequences. Maybe you make it easy for them and they DO succeed... and then find total proof of her innocence, maybe in a diary, or something.

Or maybe... they're right? Maybe she is part of some conspiracy. Maybe she doesn't even know it... maybe there's a bigger evil at play.

I wouldn't suggest trying to force them to change their behavior or plan, but I also wouldn't have them fail and be arrested, unless you have a good idea on how to get them out of prison and back in the thick of things.

There should be consequences for them trying to (or succeeding) in killing a beloved public figure who has done nothing wrong... but more important than "realism" is to make those consequences fun to play.

I wouldnt support them being right. It would just further encourage them to make random guesses and ignore every bit of evidence they see in future campaigns. I suggest they be wrong, and which of the two options you go with, ie a fast banishment with no way back, or they kill her and ruin utopia, depends on how far you want to play it and how bad you want to "punish" them for this stupid move. As it stands, all they will lose is a safe haven for the future, not an insurmountable loss. Worst case they now have an enemy in the form of whoever survives this psychotic purge.

*EDIT* To further explain, if you change your story to make them right, despite all evidence to the contrary, then from now on you can expect all of your campaigns to be ruined because they will try to disbelieve an illusion and do so by attacking the king giving them a quest, or something equally dumb. They may even stop bothering to try and use in game skills to determine whats going on because they "know" you have totally countered anything they can do in the past, so they know its pointless to try and sense motive or whatever.

Everything from then on will be run with the expectation on your side that it will quickly go full sandbox mode because no hooks can be counted on to be followed in a logical manner, so they are just as likely to slaughter the wounded guard that staggers into their camp crying out for help to "save the princess" for "obviously being a demon sent to lure us to our deaths" as to actually jump up and go save the princess.

[danzibr]

It's probably just a case of humans being unable to trust perfection.
Excellent quote.

[Razgriez]

Wait, they're planning what? huh? because she's being extreme nice, good and Pure of heart as possible?


*suffers Blue Screen of the Brain*

...........
.................

:smallsigh: Well here's your options:

1. DM's Rhetorical warning: You know the drill. "Are you REALLY sure you want to be doing this?" (Answer: No)

2. Try to steer them away from the situation, while being subtle about it. Maybe when it dawns on them that they were wrong will work out well

3. Let them go ahead and do it. Either they want to be evil, or they just need to learn the hard way

4. "Reward" them properly for their Paranoia/Meta gaming (In a wrong way). They really want to bring harm to this person, then unleash the full divine judgement and wrath of the forces of good, make them suffer, and if any of them are devout followers of deities, or divine casters who are pledged to a deity, send in the celestial beings/Aleax