Is there RAW support for 'Constructs as Items'?

[unseenmage]

I personally enjoy the interpretation of Craft Construct as a Magic Item Creation feat and the interpretation that this allows one to access the Custom Magic Item rules for their application to Custom Magic Constructs.

However, I've had some trouble assembling the few inferences (and one or two flat out references) to Constructs as Magic Items.

Care to lend me a hand assembling some RAW evidence Playground?


This article from WotC seems to imply that modifying constructs could work just like modifying magic items:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050816a

From the above, "The process of construct creation is just like creating a magic item. The process is described in Chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master's Guide and in Rules of the Game: Making Magic Items."

[cerin616]

Looks like constructs are already items. "create cnstruct" is an item creation feat.

Although i am certain there are "construct rights" activists out there. and its almost definitly questionable to keep a sentient construct around as a possession.

[Psyren]

Golems are magic items, but it's unclear if that classification can be extrapolated to all constructs.

[Deophaun]

Just to provide the direct RAW for what Psyren said:

The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item (caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, market price, cost to create) are given in summary form at the end of each golem’s description.

[cerin616]

see the Golem, Homunculus, and Shield Guardian monster entries for details

specifically names these as creatable by the item creation, so I would assume these can be considered items.

[underlaud]

I think the main issue would be that Golems are immune to alot of spells. Given this immunity and that to create or improve a magic item the spell has to be cast on said item, it would really limit what you can improve on them after the golem itself has already been created.

[unseenmage]

I think the main issue would be that Golems are immune to alot of spells. Given this immunity and that to create or improve a magic item the spell has to be cast on said item, it would really limit what you can improve on them after the golem itself has already been created.

Magic Immunity functions as though it were Spell Resistance and a creature can lower it's spell resistance willingly to accept spells.

See here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spell_Resistance_and_Spell_Immunity).

[Segev]

1) Golem spell immunity is explicitly stated in several places to be "infinite SR," and SR can be suppressed by the creature that has it. Thus, a golem's owner may command it to suppress its immunity.

2) Since upgrading magic items is basically crafting a new item that happens to share all the properties of the old one AND use the old one as a special consumed component in the creation process to shortcut time and other expenses, and nothing about magic item creation says that you have to overcome something's spell resistance to use it in said crafting, this would bypass the "Golem's are immune to spells" problem anyway.

[underlaud]

Magic Immunity functions as though it were Spell Resistance and a creature can lower it's spell resistance willingly to accept spells.

See here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spell_Resistance_and_Spell_Immunity).

Ah nice, didn't know that it worked the same way as spell resistance in that aspect. Though Golems have a Int of - so it would be debatable that they can voluntarily turn it off.

[Segev]

Ah nice, didn't know that it worked the same way as spell resistance in that aspect. Though Golems have a Int of - so it would be debatable that they can voluntarily turn it off.

They can voluntarily swing their fists, walk on their legs, do jumping jacks, and mime picking their artificial noses. Or, at least, perform these under command from their masters. The same is true of lowering their SR.

[unseenmage]

Ah nice, didn't know that it worked the same way as spell resistance in that aspect. Though Golems have a Int of - so it would be debatable that they can voluntarily turn it off.

I can't think of many other creatures, especially core creatures, with Int -- and Magic Immunity though, so one assumes that the relevant passage was expressly included for use with Golems in mind. But I could certainly be wrong.

Additionally, I don't see, "Allow this spell to affect you.", as being a 'complex command' outside the abilities of an unintelligent creature.

That's just my 2 cents though.

[underlaud]

I can't think of many other creatures, especially core creatures, with Int -- and Magic Immunity though, so one assumes that the relevant passage was expressly included for use with Golems in mind. But I could certainly be wrong.

Additionally, I don't see, "Allow this spell to affect you.", as being a 'complex command' outside the abilities of an unintelligent creature.

That's just my 2 cents though.

I would say it would be up to GM interpretation (I have had rather... stingy DMs in the past so my interpretations of the rules are a bit on the "If it does not explicitly stated it then assume no" side of things.)

Personally I would love to be able to enhance golems. Would make my Goblin Artificer a very very happy pyro.

Edit: Typos

[Segev]

I would say it would be up to GM interpretation (I have had rather... stingy DMs in the past so my interpretations of the rules are a bit on the "If it does not explicitly stated it then assume no" side of things.)

Personally I would love to be able to enhance golems. Would make my Goblin Artificer a very very happy pyro.

Edit: Typos
If your DM is being that stingy, he shouldn't be allowing golems or undead at all. After all, they apparently are too unable to parse commands to even be able to understand "go over there."

[TuggyNE]

I personally enjoy the interpretation of Craft Construct as a Magic Item Creation feat and the interpretation that this allows one to access the Custom Magic Item rules for their application to Custom Magic Constructs.

However, I've had some trouble assembling the few inferences (and one or two flat out references) to Constructs as Magic Items.

Care to lend me a hand assembling some RAW evidence Playground?


This article from WotC seems to imply that modifying constructs could work just like modifying magic items:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050816a

From the above, "The process of construct creation is just like creating a magic item. The process is described in Chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master's Guide and in Rules of the Game: Making Magic Items."

Craft Construct is an feat.
An item creation feat lets a spellcaster create a magic item of a certain type.
Craft Construct has no exception to that, so clearly it allows spellcasters to make magic items that are constructs.

Further, intelligent magic items are already explicitly treated as constructs (though without HD or most other stats), and magic items are nowhere stated to be objects in general. (Certain specific types, such as potions, wondrous items, and some others, are stated to be, but since constructs are none of those, it doesn't matter.)

The upshot: not only can you disable golems with [I]dispel magic, you can disable any construct created with Craft Construct that way.

It's not quite as clear whether they fit the custom magic item creation rules, since they're not listed in the summary of magic item costs, but since Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values does not seem to be limited to specific types of magic items, it shouldn't matter too much.

[unseenmage]

Craft Construct is an feat.
Craft Construct has no exception to that, so clearly it allows spellcasters to make magic items that are constructs.

Further, intelligent magic items are already explicitly treated as constructs (though without HD or most other stats), and magic items are nowhere stated to be objects in general. (Certain specific types, such as potions, wondrous items, and some others, are stated to be, but since constructs are none of those, it doesn't matter.)

The upshot: not only can you disable golems with [I]dispel magic, you can disable any construct created with Craft Construct that way.

It's not quite as clear whether they fit the custom magic item creation rules, since they're not listed in the summary of magic item costs, but since Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values does not seem to be limited to specific types of magic items, it shouldn't matter too much.

Just to play a little bit of devil's advocate, the best reasoning I can remember being used against the idea of constructs qualifying as Magic Items are the various parts of the game which call out the separation between objects and creatures.

For example, Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm)'s first line of text, "You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object..."

If there is rules basis to keep the creatures rules and the objects rules separate then this still might not work.

[Aharon]

Ah nice, didn't know that it worked the same way as spell resistance in that aspect. Though Golems have a Int of - so it would be debatable that they can voluntarily turn it off.

Well, one of the main ways to customize them would be to make intelligent item golems.

[TuggyNE]

Just to play a little bit of devil's advocate, the best reasoning I can remember being used against the idea of constructs qualifying as Magic Items are the various parts of the game which call out the separation between objects and creatures.

For example, Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm)'s first line of text, "You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object..."

If there is rules basis to keep the creatures rules and the objects rules separate then this still might not work.

Oh, sure, creatures and objects are different things. But look at my post again. Magic items are not stated to be objects in general, and some magic items are explicitly creatures. So while most magic items are objects, some are creatures, including nearly all constructs.

Although, now that I look at it, suppressing a magic item only works on objects. Bah, that's annoying. Still, disjunction blasts them apart, and in other ways (including the OP's request) they count as magic items.