[PF] Sorcerer/Wizard Help

[AcXen]

Apologies up front because I know this is going to be slightly long-winded, and I promise I'm smarter than this is all going to sound. I also am going to try to head off any normal questions that usually arise from this stuff so you guys can just get straight into helping me instead of having to wait for me to answer a question first that should have been included in this write up to begin with.

Our gaming group is going to be playing the Ways of the Wicked AP starting on Monday. We've been told there would possibly be a chance for some of us to potentially end up as vampires or a lich. When I heard Lich I immediately wanted to play a Necromancer. Kind of have the whole "human pissed he can't be immortal so he's going to become death itself" kinda trope. My GM is going to allow me to start at an advanced age, just not take any of +/- stats that come with that.

With that said, I was going to attempt to play a specialist wizard, but got hung up on what opposition schools to have since I know that quite a bit of the time necromancy itself is taken as an opposition school and I'm going to take it as a specialist school. I was going to go with Evocation & Divination, but really disliked the idea of having to use up extra slots to have some of the divination spells. I also ran into the problem of what to do with my stats, since as a Wizard I'd want Int, but I wouldn't want to gimp my Cha because when I'd turn into a Lich that's my Con.

So after wanting to gouge my eyes out from reading as many PF books as I could over the last week concerning casters I decided on the Sorcerer instead. That would let me have my casting stat also balance out as my Con, which would be really great because by 20 my Cha would be very high. It also means I don't really have to worry about the whole Opposition school thing. It definitely makes taking the feats I was going to take harder though, since the Sorc only has bonus feats from it's bloodline, whereas the Wizard gets Meta/Crafting, etc bonus feats to choose from.

So, with that at mind I'll try to break the rest out into spoiler tags to save a little space:

Party Composition:


Drow Rogue/Assassin
Tiefling Inquisitor
Drow Antipaladin (I think he's going to be a Drow)
?? Ranger
Human Sorcerer (me)


Character:


Human Sorcerer (Arcane Bloodline)

25pt buy

Str: 7
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 20

Traits (can only take 1, the other is campaign specific):

Reactionary

Tentative Feats:

1: Spell Focus (Necro)
1: Greater Spell Focus (Necro)
3: Craft Wondrous Item
5: Persistent Spell
7: Improved Familiar (Imp)
7: Improved Initiative (bonus sorc feat)
9: Piercing Spell
11: Quicken
13: Spell Penetration
13: Combat Casting (Bonus sorc Feat)
15: Lich Feat (required to become the lich)
17: Greater Spell Penetration
19: Dazing Spell
19: Iron Will (bonus sorc feat)


Answers to questions that you might ask:



I don't intend to make this guy a minion controlling necromancer. He's going to be played as a full on debuffer/controller. So, while I know a Cleric makes a great Necromancer, I won't be playing a Cleric.

I'm open to a race change if it leads to something better with debuffing/controlling. The reason I took human was for the extra feat, and the extra spells for the human sorc archetype.

According to our GM I should be capable of playing as a Lich at 15th. So I'll have 5 levels of lichdom. I have to have a feat slot open at 15th for a feat specific to the game to turn into a Lich. I also have to craft my own phylactery, so have to have Craft Wondrous Items. Other than that, feats are up in the air. I would like to have Spell Focus/GSF Necromancy to stick with flavor.

Only Pathfinder will be allowed. No 3.5e conversions, etc. There is a chance some of the 3rd party PF stuff from the d20pfsrd.com site may be allowed depending on what it is.



Item Goals:


In no particular order.


Belt of Physical Might +4
Robe of Arcane Heritage
Spectral Shroud
Glove of Storing
Helm of Telepathy
Headband of Alluring Charisma +6
Hand of Glory
Cloak of Resistance +5
Spellguard Bracers
Ring of Protection +5
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Ring of Mind Shielding
Some Runestones of Power
Lesser Metamagic Rods, Quicken, Silence, Extend



My Questions:



Would a wizard have been better, since I'll be the main caster in the group?

Stats look ok? Even though skimping on Con isn't great, I'm trying to ride the line as much as I can since I won't actually need the Con at all once I'm a lich.

Feats? I don't particularly like the bonus feats that I have access to for the Arcane bloodline, but I really like the bloodline. Only one I was going to take was Improved Initiative. I took the other because they seemed the better out of the group. I wanted to try to get Spell Perfection, and possibly Craft Staff to take advantage of the Arcane Bloodline's capstone ability at 16 with Robes of Arcane Heritage. I just don't have the feat slots on a Sorc to do that. Was maybe going to drop Imp Familiar and just keep my base familiar and have a Scorpion for the +4 int. Never have done anything with familiars so I have no idea if losing +4 int but gaining a semi-minion is worth it?

Items look ok? All told that's something like 354,000GP, which should be well within my grasp in a campaign all the way to 20. According to avg amount of GP I should have at 20, that's significantly low. So I don't think it'll kill my party if I try to acquire all of that.



**Edited to add Pathfinder only to answers section.**

[Sheogoroth]

1. For a wizard, you could make a glutton magic specialist. They get TONS of bonus necromancy spells, and your prohibited classes are already laid out for you.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/thassilonian-specialist

If your only concern is your beefiness, there are some feats that make undead a bit more chewy in Libris Mortis I believe. You are also a lich, which means that death(and I use the term loosely) is really more of a minor setback. And if high-level persons they are close enough to hit you at the level in which you would be normally lichified, you screwed up as a caster and your party screwed up as meat shields. High level casters without protective layers generally get mulched on impact regardless of their constitution. Now, your main concern is still the lack of abjuration spells, but you can get by using etherealness, flight, walls etc. And when you can create undead, there are a few absolutely insane 3p necromancy spells to give you corpse-suits and body doubles. Then there's contingency...

2. I usually skimp con on my casters. I'd drop it to 7 and boost your dex to 16.
You're a caster, stand in the back.

3. A necromancer with no augment undead? madness!
Also, Ennervate spell will allow you to heal yourself or other party members(supposing that they are undead) with Fireball.
http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/enervate-spell--883/
Then there's this...
http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-mage--58/master-of-undeath--1889/

It might not be to bad to check out undead leadership either.

4. Items look fine to me.

[AcXen]

1. For a wizard, you could make a glutton magic specialist. They get TONS of bonus necromancy spells, and your prohibited classes are already laid out for you.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/thassilonian-specialist

If your only concern is your beefiness, there are some feats that make undead a bit more chewy in Libris Mortis I believe. You are also a lich, which means that death(and I use the term loosely) is really more of a minor setback. And if high-level persons they are close enough to hit you at the level in which you would be normally lichified, you screwed up as a caster and your party screwed up as meat shields. High level casters without protective layers generally get mulched on impact regardless of their constitution. Now, your main concern is still the lack of abjuration spells, but you can get by using etherealness, flight, walls etc. And when you can create undead, there are a few absolutely insane 3p necromancy spells to give you corpse-suits and body doubles. Then there's contingency...

2. I usually skimp con on my casters. I'd drop it to 7 and boost your dex to 16.
You're a caster, stand in the back.

3. A necromancer with no augment undead? madness!
Also, Ennervate spell will allow you to heal yourself or other party members(supposing that they are undead) with Fireball.
http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/enervate-spell--883/
Then there's this...
http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-mage--58/master-of-undeath--1889/

It might not be to bad to check out undead leadership either.

4. Items look fine to me.

None of the 3.5e rules/books are going to be allowed, just strictly Pathfinder.

Some of what you linked appears to be from 3.5e, or at least not in Pathfinder. I can't find Ennervate spell at all in PF, not can I find Master of Undeath. I checked d20pfsrd.com but didn't see anything there about that, although I might have overlooked it.

I definitely don't mind dropping the Con, just worried about catching a random dmg spell or something where I fail a save. Negative con could kill me, and our GM isn't going to decide to not target me since I'm in the back. If I'm the guy stopping all his minions from doing stuff so the BSF can just wail on everything I'm going to get targeted by our GM for sure. Mostly just worried about dying in the beginning. 7 con right away is probably going to be rough, especially the way the campaign starts out from what I hear.

[Blyte]

If you are at all willing to opt for becoming a vampire eventually instead of a lich, I'd suggest sanguine bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/sanguine).

You will gain a self heal in what seems a healing light party, and+1 CL to the necromancy school.

Taking the tattooed archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/tattooed-sorcerer) will nab you an additional +1 CL in necromancy, from your mage tattoo, and a familiar (scorpion for +4 initiative is my fave).

Human is definitely the right choice, because their alt-favored class feature is fantastic. Just take the +1hp/level till 4th.

Now let's move on to feats.
Spell Focus Necromancy is a good choice +1DCs will pay dividends throughout the life of the character
Spell Specialization (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-specialization) Ray of Enfeeblement (+2 CLs) <--- if you are SERIOUS about being a debuffer, but don't worry, later you can shift it over to boneshatter.


Triats.
let's think mid-late game and go for magical lineage boneshatter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/boneshatter)

As for spell selection, I'd suggest ray of enfeeblement and sleep.

[Sheogoroth]

Strictly Pathfinder, eh?

Well Gluttony Wizard is still an option.
So is this feat:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/undead-master

But speaking from research, clerics are better for commanding undead AND for becoming a lich, since they use charisma. They also get better progression and there are those sweet, sweet domains.
In which case, I would bring this to your attention.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/undead-lord

Wizards are better at the debuffing and negative level morphic-blasting side of necromancy. Necromancy is arguably the most versatile school of magic, as it has bits of every other school mixed in, even divination in 3rd party spells.

Alternatively...
This Prc is something I've been wanting to work into one of my characters for a while now(they used to be called 'bloatmages' and I think I liked the image that evoked a bit more.)
It's a little nasty, but if you took vampire- you 'could' argue with your DM that since you take everyone else's blood, you can restore your blood pool through chow time.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/bloatmage#TOC-Blood-Pool

You have so many unique opportunities here!

[Corlindale]

I would not dump Con at the start, in my experience there'll always be situations when you get jumped, and with 7 Con that would mean being torn apart (false life can only get you so far). You have to survive with it for 15 levels, the vast majority of the game.

Feats look pretty nice. Not sure Piercing Spell is really necessary if you're also getting Greater Spell Penetration. If you run into something with SR *that* crazy then just use your buff and some no-SR control spells. The order of feats could perhaps be changed a little too, often you get metamagic feats before you can really make use of them (ex. Persistent and Quicken).

And since you're getting that many metamagic feats anyway it might be nice to build for Spell Perfection. Of course you can't take it until 17 because of that Lich stuff, but it's still a really, really powerful feat. It can pump up the DC (and double the power of Spell Penetration) of your favourite necromancy save-or-suck, or it can let you quicken a spell up to 5th level for free. Or both!

[AcXen]

If you are at all willing to opt for becoming a vampire eventually instead of a lich, I'd suggest sanguine bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/sanguine).

You will gain a self heal in what seems a healing light party, and+1 CL to the necromancy school.

Taking the tattooed archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/tattooed-sorcerer) will nab you an additional +1 CL in necromancy, from your mage tattoo, and a familiar (scorpion for +4 initiative is my fave).

Human is definitely the right choice, because their alt-favored class feature is fantastic. Just take the +1hp/level till 4th.

Now let's move on to feats.
Spell Focus Necromancy is a good choice +1DCs will pay dividends throughout the life of the character
Spell Specialization (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-specialization) Ray of Enfeeblement (+2 CLs) <--- if you are SERIOUS about being a debuffer, but don't worry, later you can shift it over to boneshatter.


Triats.
let's think mid-late game and go for magical lineage boneshatter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/boneshatter)

As for spell selection, I'd suggest ray of enfeeblement and sleep.

I was thinking about taking Magical Lineage Enervation. Stacking negative levels on things as a full on debuffer. I know that deathward would negate Enervation entirely, would it do anything to Boneshatter? If not, then Boneshatter might definitely be the way to go. Didn't even see that spell until you posted it. It's pretty nice.

I am definitely serious about being the party debuffer/controller. While I'm going to take some damaging spells, they'll be a secondary thought instead of a primary one. I've always heard that ray of enfeeblement was heavily nerfed in Pathfinder. If so, is it still worth taking?

I'm going to have to look into the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype. Seems interesting. The only real thing I'd be giving up would be Eschew Materials, and being able to pick up 3 spells from Arcanes 9th level bloodline power. That can be offset with the human sorcerer ability though.

Sadly, I won't be able to actually be a vampire. From what I understand it's extremely feat intensive to do in this game. You have to have something like 4-5 feats in order to fully become one, and I can't give those feats up. I believe either the Antipaladin, or the Rogue are probably going to try to swing that, but it's just too many feats for me to take.

[AcXen]

I would not dump Con at the start, in my experience there'll always be situations when you get jumped, and with 7 Con that would mean being torn apart (false life can only get you so far). You have to survive with it for 15 levels, the vast majority of the game.

Feats look pretty nice. Not sure Piercing Spell is really necessary if you're also getting Greater Spell Penetration. If you run into something with SR *that* crazy then just use your buff and some no-SR control spells. The order of feats could perhaps be changed a little too, often you get metamagic feats before you can really make use of them (ex. Persistent and Quicken).

And since you're getting that many metamagic feats anyway it might be nice to build for Spell Perfection. Of course you can't take it until 17 because of that Lich stuff, but it's still a really, really powerful feat. It can pump up the DC (and double the power of Spell Penetration) of your favourite necromancy save-or-suck, or it can let you quicken a spell up to 5th level for free. Or both!

I was trying to get the metamagic feats out of the way to make room for Spell Perfection, since it needed 3. I just never adjusted the list after I couldn't fit Spell Perfection at 15.

I've never really played a caster too much, so I wasn't sure which metamagic feats to take. I hear everyone always talking about Dazing, but I really wanted Persistent to force 2 rolls on save spells since I would be throwing out lots of save debuffs. Piercing I can replace with something else for sure if you have a suggestion, or maybe get rid of Greater Spell Pen and pick up a different feat instead?

[Blyte]

I was thinking about taking Magical Lineage Enervation. Stacking negative levels on things as a full on debuffer. I know that deathward would negate Enervation entirely, would it do anything to Boneshatter? If not, then Boneshatter might definitely be the way to go. Didn't even see that spell until you posted it. It's pretty nice.

I am definitely serious about being the party debuffer/controller. While I'm going to take some damaging spells, they'll be a secondary thought instead of a primary one. I've always heard that ray of enfeeblement was heavily nerfed in Pathfinder. If so, is it still worth taking?

I'm going to have to look into the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype. Seems interesting. The only real thing I'd be giving up would be Eschew Materials, and being able to pick up 3 spells from Arcanes 9th level bloodline power. That can be offset with the human sorcerer ability though.

Sadly, I won't be able to actually be a vampire. From what I understand it's extremely feat intensive to do in this game. You have to have something like 4-5 feats in order to fully become one, and I can't give those feats up. I believe either the Antipaladin, or the Rogue are probably going to try to swing that, but it's just too many feats for me to take.

I don't believe deathward will prevent boneshatter. From memory, it stops level drains and death effects.

Eschew Materials isn't such a bad loss, and when you are in a pinch there is always bloodmoney (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money)