Will Durkula vampirize Belkar?

[pendell]

Just thinking aloud. Belkar as he is is down to Con 1, and in desperate need of a restoration.

Belkar has also been a loose cannon, and has acted in ways the living Durkon found disgusting.

So instead of giving him a restoration and setting him free to do more chaotic things, might not the lawful Durkula simply vampirize him? Making him not only more powerful than he can possibly imagine, but also bringing him under Durkula's complete control?

ETA: Alternatively, will Belkar pester the dayl-, erm, the moonlights out of Durkula to vampirize him until, out of self-defense, Durkula dominates him to shut him up?

For that matter, I can well imagine him vampirizing Nale as well, then compelling him using Dominate to "take a nice walk on this beautiful, sunny day." I'm sure he can word it in such a way as to not trigger a saving throw vs. dominate.

Heh ... actually that gives a fourth idea. It will never happen, but how an alternate universe where Durkula vampirizes the entire Order, and they continue their journey as the Order of the Shadowed Line? Order of the Fang? Order of the Darkness? I'm imagining Banjo with fangs...

Of course, that never would happen in reality. I'm thinking of a what-if along the lines of Star Wars Infinities. Maybe it'll make a good fanfiction.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[homeosapiens]

I actually find it a cool theory. Consistent with that, that i think Durkon will kill Belkar, and Belkar drawing last breath.

Durkon just have to do this in a way that nobody turns on him for it.

And Belkar as thrall would be no fun - somehow he has to get realeased.

[Emulgator]

He'll snap his neck.

Enjoy your "Belkar will be a brain-in-a-jar, which doesn't breathe and eat cake" while you can.

[pendell]

He'll snap his neck.

Enjoy your "Belkar will be a brain-in-a-jar, which doesn't breathe and eat cake" while you can.

That may in fact be what will happen, it may even be required by the rules of drama, but from a game perspective why would a lawful evil villain destroy an enemy if he could make him his obedient thrall? Seems a waste. Also, more entertainment value.

"Thrall, my boots are dirty. Clean them with your tongue!"

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Emulgator]

Durkon's capital E isn't Evil. It's efficient.
Besides the party would get much angrier if he vampirized Belkar. If he dies he was just a tool, if he's Thrall that proves Durkon isn't Durkon anymore. You believe Roy/Elan/Haley woudn't object to that? Neck snap is quicker.

[Porthos]

Durkon's capital E isn't Evil. It's efficient.
Besides the party would get much angrier if he vampirized Belkar. If he dies he was just a tool, if he's Thrall that proves Durkon isn't Durkon anymore. You believe Roy/Elan/Haley woudn't object to that?

This. Most of the rest of the Order would freak out over such a betrayal.

Making Vampires to get good little slaves out of the bargin isn't exactly high on the list of approved actions for most Good-aligned adventurers.

[LasVegasLawyer]

That may in fact be what will happen, it may even be required by the rules of drama, but from a game perspective why would a lawful evil villain destroy an enemy if he could make him his obedient thrall? Seems a waste. Also, more entertainment value.

Because Durkon may be Evil, but he's still Lawful. OOTS doesn't kill or betray it's own party members, so if he rejoins OOTS, he can be certain that no one in the OOTS is going to try to take him out. The rules protect him, so he isn't going to violate them to kill Belkar.

[JennTora]

Unless Belkar is all "ooh sweet, can I get some cool vampire powers, too?"

Roy would likely still have a problem with it. But If Belkar gets vampirized, I don't think the lessons he learned will go away, and he'll be able cast some spells, and he'll be smarter, which would be awesome.

[Reddish Mage]

I predict!

That Durkon won't vampirize Belkar. However, he will explain why he doesn't, perhaps that the chaotic destructive potential of a vampire Belkar is too horrific for vampire Durkon to comprehend.

[CletusMusashi]

Heh ... actually that gives a fourth idea. It will never happen, but how an alternate universe where Durkula vampirizes the entire Order, and they continue their journey as the Order of the Shadowed Line? Order of the Fang? Order of the Darkness? I'm imagining Banjo with fangs...

Order of the Stake?

[FujinAkari]

Vampire Belkar still runs afoul the "not long for this world" part of the prophesy, much as people like to forget about that one :P

[Porthos]

Vampire Belkar still runs afoul the "not long for this world" part of the prophesy, much as people like to forget about that one :P

Well, that's an idiom so it really doesn't count. Funding his IRA does thou. :smalltongue:


Unless Belkar is all "ooh sweet, can I get some cool vampire powers, too?"

I know you put 'unless' as a qualifier, but I want to use this as a jumping off point.

Why do so many people think Belkar would want to be vamped? Sure, we hear the 'sweet cool powers' line over and over again.

Yet when he actually came close to being vamped, did he even show the tiniest amount of regret that he didn't get All Teh Powerz?

No. No he did not.

In fact, he seemed positively relieved (and ashamed to a degree) that he was still alive.

Now once the situation becomes more normalized, I could see Belkar making a sarcastic joke or three about it. Though he might have to tread carefully given that it looks like Durkon's patience level might be a wee bit shorter than it once was. :smallwink:

But aside from sarcastic quips? No, strange as it might seem to the people who are used to the Belkar of the first 700 strips or so, he isn't leaping at a chance to get fanged.

[DeliaP]

Order of the Stake?

That's so good it almost makes me want to see it happen!

You should give yourself a: :smallcool: for that.

[NerdyKris]

Why do so many people think Belkar would want to be vamped? Sure, we hear the 'sweet cool powers' line over and over again.

Yet when he actually came close to being vamped, did he even show the tiniest amount of regret that he didn't get All Teh Powerz?

No. No he did not.

In fact, he seemed positively relieved (and ashamed to a degree) that he was still alive.


Exactly. Besides the Order objecting to it, Belkar himself would object to it, as we've already seen. And there's really no point to Durkon doing it against his will. Belkar has been loyal for a long time, there's no reason to enslave him to get him to do what they want. They know that at the very least, the threat of them all killing him keeps him in line.

Durkon might be lacking a conscience right now, but that doesn't mean he's going to go full on psychopath, or chaotic stupid. He still wants to save the world with his friends. And that requires not feeding on them.

In fact, this might be a key difference between him and Malack. Malack says he killed his brothers upon becoming a vampire. It might have been out of self defense, or it might just be that Malack was already lacking enough honor that becoming a vampire gave him an excuse to be evil for the sake of evil before becoming more careful. Again, since we've only seen him and Durkon as vampires, we can't say with certainty that it's the Buffy verse ridiculous "Let's all turn instantly evil and kill everyone despite common sense" vampires. It could just be "Same person, same soul, just twisted.".

[Gift Jeraff]

This board seems to have a strange obsession with Durkon/Malack turning Nale/Z into a vampire thrall and forcing them to be in daylight.

[JackRackham]

Well, that's an idiom so it really doesn't count. Funding his IRA does thou. :smalltongue:.

Technically, IRAs are for people who plan to retire. Retirement is for people who A. Plan to age and B. Have a reasonably informed opinion as to when they'll die. Or at least a good idea of what the best-case scenario is. You can't save enough money for forever, and a vampire adventurer never gets "too old for this sh*t."

And, not that I think this would happen, but Vampire Belkar going through the rift probably satisfies the literal terms of all the profecies.

[pendell]

Why do so many people think Belkar would want to be vamped? Sure, we hear the 'sweet cool powers' line over and over again.



Primarily I'm thinking he would want that based on this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html), when he seriously considered defecting to Team Evil. He's responded positively in the strip to the idea of killing Elan for Xp and was dissuaded by the reminder the whole rest of the team would snuff him if he tried.

And the fact he also considered killing the party and looting the magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html). But he simply hadn't thought of it until Roy mentioned it.

What is Belkar's life ambition? To go back to his home village and murder them all in their sleep. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html)

Belkar is all about the brutal murder.

So if he hasn't yet twigged to the idea that becoming a creature of the night whose whole purpose in-game is to murder humans brutally, and gets a whole bunch of bonuses to stack on it, not to mention having ladies who think vampires are romantic throw themselves at him, I can think of only one possible explanation: He just hasn't thought of it.

Belkar isn't big on the thinking.

But he IS big on the killing.

While it probably won't happen, Belkar becoming a vampire would be quite fitting for his character arc. He's ALREADY a bloodthirsty killing machine.

ETA: Y'know what else Vampires are big on? Defiling corpses. So again, how is that different from living Belkar?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dalek Kommander]

In fact, this might be a key difference between him and Malack. Malack says he killed his brothers upon becoming a vampire. It might have been out of self defense, or it might just be that Malack was already lacking enough honor that becoming a vampire gave him an excuse to be evil for the sake of evil before becoming more careful.

I suspect the biggest difference is that Malack probably spent more than half an hour as an obedient thrall.



Again, since we've only seen him and Durkon as vampires, we can't say with certainty that it's the Buffy verse ridiculous "Let's all turn instantly evil and kill everyone despite common sense" vampires. It could just be "Same person, same soul, just twisted.".


When Durkon said "World's still at stake, ain't it?" that's pretty much just a more succinct version of this:


We like to talk big... vampires do. "I'm going to destroy the world." That's just tough-guy talk. Strutting around with your friends over a pint of blood. The truth is, I _like_ this world. You've got...dog racing, Manchester United. And you've got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. But then someone comes along with a vision. With a real... passion for destruction. Angel could pull it off. Good-bye, Picadilly. Farewell, Leicester-bloody-Square.

[Porthos]

Primarily I'm thinking he would want that based on this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html), when he seriously considered defecting to Team Evil. He's responded positively in the strip to the idea of killing Elan for Xp and was dissuaded by the reminder the whole rest of the team would snuff him if he tried.

And the fact he also considered killing the party and looting the magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html). But he simply hadn't thought of it until Roy mentioned it.

What is Belkar's life ambition? To go back to his home village and murder them all in their sleep. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html)

Belkar is all about the brutal murder.

So if he hasn't yet twigged to the idea that becoming a creature of the night whose whole purpose in-game is to murder humans brutally, and gets a whole bunch of bonuses to stack on it, not to mention having ladies who think vampires are romantic throw themselves at him, I can think of only one possible explanation: He just hasn't thought of it.

Belkar isn't big on the thinking.

But he IS big on the killing.

While it probably won't happen, Belkar becoming a vampire would be quite fitting for his character arc. .

Belkar pre-#700? Sure, I'd buy that.

Belkar post-#700? No. No it absolutely would not.

Ever since the arena, Belkar has been headed in a particular direction that is pretty different to the one before. Belkar isn't a One Note Pony anymore. He is probably still Chaotic Evil. But he is changing.

He might regress on his own. He might stall where he's at. Events might even conspire against him to push him back into a more comfortable spot.

But are you honestly going to tell me that the Belkar of, oh say, the mid-400s would act in this way upon learning that Dukon sacrificed his life for him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html)?

I will allow that he might make a crack about it in the next few strips. But if and when he does, I'm gonna be reading it as sarcastic unless I am given a good reason not to.

[MtlGuy]

Doubtful, I think it's more likely that Durkon will use his gaze attack to subjugate Belkar into becoming his mobile blood ABM. Afterall, he's gotta eat and is anyone in the OotS actually gonna volunteer (Durkon could heal them after)? Even that's a stretch since Durkon will likely have opportunities to drain the blood of his enemies.

[pendell]

Ever since the arena, Belkar has been headed in a particular direction that is pretty different to the one before. Belkar isn't a One Note Pony anymore. He is probably still Chaotic Evil. But he is changing.



Yes, but I don't think he's changed all that much yet. The Belkar we knew had TWO devils on each shoulder. It will take a long, long, long time before such a person is even close to neutral territory, let alone anything approaching good.

This is the same Belkar who befriended Buggy Lou, then killed him and defiled his corpse at a moment's notice.

This is the same Belkar who thought it was the height of hilarity to .. I won't repeat what he and V did to the kobold off-screen with Mr. Scruffy, but it was vile.

Belkar is changing but at this point you could measure that change with a micrometer. Faking good behavior for the sake of not being murdered does not a significant change make.



But are you honestly going to tell me that the Belkar of, oh say, the mid-400s would act in this way upon learning that Dukon sacrificed his life for him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html)?



Tactically speaking, what else was he supposed to do? He's down to con 1 and can barely crawl. He's in a hostile pyramid with multiple enemies walking through it, and not all of them are as willing to let him go as Malack was.

What ELSE is he supposed to do besides reunite with the one group of people in this dungeon, in the middle of a hostile wilderness, who are NOT actively trying to kill him and might even help him at some point?

Belkar's actions in 879 are entirely explicable in terms of his self-interest. As a result, the actions are neutral, and are of no more value for determining his alignment than the fact that he eats breakfast and puts on his clothes every day.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Porthos]

What ELSE is he supposed to do besides reunite with the one group of people in this dungeon, in the middle of a hostile wilderness, who are NOT actively trying to kill him and might even help him at some point?

He hasn't made one crack about All Teh Powerz that he missed out on. And it's not like he didn't have the opportunity when he was talking to Roy.

Moreover, he actually expressed something close to guilt and sorrow. Both immediately and when talking to Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html). These are new things for Belkar and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

Plus, just how do you think Mr. Scruffy would to react to Belkar getting vamped? I'm going to put the bet on "Not Well". :smallwink:

[NerdyKris]

Doubtful, I think it's more likely that Durkon will use his gaze attack to subjugate Belkar into becoming his mobile blood ABM. Afterall, he's gotta eat and is anyone in the OotS actually gonna volunteer (Durkon could heal them after)? Even that's a stretch since Durkon will likely have opportunities to drain the blood of his enemies.

Roy's Bag of Tricks can summon animals for Durkon to drink from.

I wonder if that was planned all this time?

[pendell]

He hasn't made one crack about All Teh Powerz that he missed out on. And it's not like he didn't have the opportunity when he was talking to Roy.


The way I remember it, Roy was about two panels away from chopping him into bits with his greatsword. Does that seem the right time to be making funnyman cracks? Not to me, it doesn't.

Does that seem like the right time to be making ANY comments that would give Roy any additional reason to cut you into little bits? Well.. *I* wouldn't.

I acknowledge that Belkar did indeed seem to show a bit of remorse. But he still hasn't demonstrated that, just because he has a momentary attack of weakness possibly brought on by blood loss, that he's any less the Natural Born Killa than he has been all along.

The bottom line is that the last panel shows us much change. His releasing the monster to save the bounty hunters -- that DOES show change. But I don't believe that it yet amounts to such a turning that he would willingly forsake immortality and improved ability to kill out of moral scruple.

Moral scruple ... Belkar... the two don't even belong in the same sentence. What is he?

HE IS A SE-XY SHOE-LESS GAWD OF WAAARRRRRRRR!

THAT's what Belkar is.

And he would be even moreso as a vampire.

Such a change as you describe is technically possible but I do not see sufficient supporting evidence in the comic to agree. Yet.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gift Jeraff]

And yet, the glimpse that we got into his ultimate fantasy didn't involve war or sex.

[pendell]

And yet, the glimpse that we got into his ultimate fantasy didn't involve war or sex.

...

Yeah, you're right. Maybe he HAS changed.

But is it enough?

I guess we'll find out.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Porthos]

I guess Belkar really wants to be a vampire after all. Why else would he provoke him like that. :smallwink:

[R. Malcovitch]

Vampire Belkar still runs afoul the "not long for this world" part of the prophesy, much as people like to forget about that one :P

The only thing that's actual prophesy, as opposed to the oracle rambling is:


Belkar will draw his last breath, ever, before the end of the year

[veti]

Primarily I'm thinking he would want that based on this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html), when he seriously considered defecting to Team Evil.

Was he 'seriously considering' it, or was he just yanking Tsukiko's chain? I incline to the latter. Belkar is a master of psychological warfare. I find it very hard to believe that he was "seriously considering" becoming an NPC, no matter what the perks are like.

And yes, I know what he then says to Haley, but I wouldn't take that at face value either. Fercryinoutloud, this is Belkar. He'd say literally anything for a cheap laugh. Keeping his teammates guessing about his true actions and motivations is, of course, a bonus.


And the fact he also considered killing the party and looting the magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html). But he simply hadn't thought of it until Roy mentioned it.

"Hadn't thought of it" my... eye. See above explanation. What Belkar says and what he actually does are two very, very different things. Yes, he's a brutal little psycho, but he's also a PC, and he'll do whatever it takes to stay that way. The nastiest thing that's ever happened to him (as far as we know, I mean) was not when he activated the Mark of Justice, but a few frames later, when Haley booted him out of the party.


Belkar is all about the brutal murder.

Then why didn't he kill Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html) when he had the chance? Why did he hesitate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0685.html) to fight Buggy Lou et al? Why did he hesitate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0730.html) to get into the bar fight? Why did he talk Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html) into pressing on with the quest? Why did he spare Jenny (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html), rescue Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html), and spare Crystal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html)? Why does he waste his time and energy playing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html) completely (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html) non-lethal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0358.html) practical (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0676.html) jokes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html) on his teammates?

Please note, I'm not saying he's anything but an evil bastard. But "all about the brutal murder" doesn't even begin to capture what makes him tick.

[warmachine]

I can't see Belkar wanting to become a vampire because the weapon in his pants that we never see wouldn't work. He enjoys his off-screen action and seems to be good at it. If he was in a committed relationship that might be less true but he favours the physical aspects of love, rather than the emotional.

[dps]

I can't see Belkar wanting to become a vampire because the weapon in his pants that we never see wouldn't work.

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but is that true of DnD vampires?

[JennTora]

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but is that true of DnD vampires?

I think it is by default. I don't think it's true in all settings. There might be a spell that could be researched though.

[Dalek Kommander]

I think it is by default. I don't think it's true in all settings. There might be a spell that could be researched though.

I don't think the vampire template explicitly adds "sexual impotence" to the base creature.

[Doxkid]

Half Vampires exist.

That said, they are specifically a rarity.

[Rakoa]

In addition, using the bloodline rules, one can have Vampire ancestry, which would imply that Vampires are fertile.

[JennTora]

I don't think the vampire template explicitly adds "sexual impotence" to the base creature.

I was under the impression that it said something about all their organs dying, but now I cab't find where it says that.



In addition, using the bloodline rules, one can have Vampire ancestry, which would imply that Vampires are fertile.



True, although vampire fertility spells could exist.

[Wou]

Soo...
Either mind slavery or unleashing even more dangerous, possibly immortal, psychopath on the world. Can't really see Roy (or Haley or Elan) being OK with any of those options.

[CletusMusashi]

Belkar would not convert willingly, not because he's averse to being a bloodthirsty killer, but simply because he's somehow so well versed in modern pop culture that he'd think Durkon was trying to seduce him over to the Ann Rice side.

[Lord Raziere]

:durkon: och nay, why would I want ta' make that nasty lil' bugger a vampire?
tha' guy annoys me enough already! why would I want to keep 'im around fer all eternity eh? as fer killing him eh….when tha time is right lad. when tha time is right. I'm still Lawful don'cha know?

[Bulldog Psion]

I sincerely doubt that Durkon will turn Belkar into a vampire. It would be a real twice-told tale. The Belkster needs to have a different, unique fate.