Quick upgrade to Paladin's tier?

[eviljav]

This has probably been suggested before, but:

Switching Paladin casting to spontaneous, with all spells on the Paladin's list, and switching the casting stat to be either charisma or wisdom (whichever is higher)

Would that be enough to bring them up to high tier 3 / low tier 2?

[Eldonauran]

That, and give the Paladin bard-like casting progression. That would bring it up to Tier 3.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you also increased spells/day, it might bump you up to T3, especially with Battle Blessing (which becomes a total feat tax) and the expanded spell list from splatbooks. I can't imagine why your Wisdom would ever wind up being higher than your Charisma, though, given how many of your other class abilities depend on Cha.

If you're changing things, though, I'd also boost the smite-- steal the pathfinder one, let the D&D version be compatible with full attacking and usable level+Cha times/day, make it per encounter instead of per day, put it on a cooldown, boost the damage to +1d6/level, use some combination thereof-- just make it worth using.

[Alabenson]

Honestly, I'd say that'd only bring Paladin up to about Tier 4, maybe low Tier 3. The problem is that, even with Battle Blessing and extensive splatbook support, Paladin's are still half-casters whose spells are often irrelevant at the levels they're gained.
Added to this is the fact that they have a miniscule skill list, few skill points, and no relevant class features after about level 5.

[cerin616]

Honestly, I'd say that'd only bring Paladin up to about Tier 4, maybe low Tier 3. The problem is that, even with Battle Blessing and extensive splatbook support, Paladin's are still half-casters whose spells are often irrelevant at the levels they're gained.
Added to this is the fact that they have a miniscule skill list, few skill points, and no relevant class features after about level 5.

Im with him.

If the paladin got better spells, that would make him much more effective, the fact that he has to prepare doesnt really change that much. And in fact, most prepared casters out perform spontaneous ones.

[Barsoom]

To be in Tier 2, you need to get 9th level spells. And not just 9th level spells from a limited list, like the Dread Necromancer or Beguiler, but 9th level spells from a wide range of choices, like the Sorcerer.

You can't really put a Paladin in Tier 2, unless you overhaul him so much that he's no longer the Paladin.

Bard's spell-per-day progression (make up a list of 5th and 6th level spells) is perfectly good for T3.

[JaronK]

To be in Tier 2, you need to get 9th level spells. And not just 9th level spells from a limited list, like the Dread Necromancer or Beguiler, but 9th level spells from a wide range of choices, like the Sorcerer.

You can't really put a Paladin in Tier 2, unless you overhaul him so much that he's no longer the Paladin.

Bard's spell-per-day progression (make up a list of 5th and 6th level spells) is perfectly good for T3.

Well, you could make a new Paladin base class based on the PrC Paladin and quickly get up into Tier 1 land, of course.

JaronK

[Barsoom]

I guess you could, but then he's practically a Cleric. Maintaining the Paladin class identity - one of a holy warrior that vanquishes evil by the strength of his sword - is incompatible with high-tier play. IMHO.

[Petrocorus]

The same spell progression that the bard, with a 5th and 6th level spell list. Access to spell from the Good, Law, War, Strength, Protection and Healing domain. And spell casting keyed to Charisma.

Also, a far better progression of smite evil. More bonus to damage, to hit, and much more use per day. Maybe at-will at level 20. And with additional effect, like making the weapon good-aligned for overcoming damage reduction.

And maybe a fighter bonus feat or two. And 4 skill points per level, with a better list. Paladin tend to travel a lot for seeking evil to destroy, there is the archetype of the wandering knight after all, it's not reflected in their skill list.

And letting him get better mounts with levels, like the Druid and his companion, without wasting feat.


Another possibility, is not to improve the spell casting, but to gestalt it with Marshal, get the auras. And / Or maybe, retool it completely and get a divine version of the Warlock's invocation, instead of spell casting.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I guess you could, but then he's practically a Cleric. Maintaining the Paladin class identity - one of a holy warrior that vanquishes evil by the strength of his sword - is incompatible with high-tier play. IMHO.
I mean, you could do it, but it'd look really ridiculous. Save-or-die smites, shapechanging into celestials, stupidly potent feats of strength and endurance thanks to the Power of GoodTM, Just Saying No to all kinds of offensive abilities, unfailingly detecting lies, converting evildoers to the cause of Good with a single (standard action) speech, raising armies of peasants and leading them to victory over trained hordes ten times their size, cutting through planar barriers with a single sword stroke...

Something kind of like the Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276481)class I did a while back, but with Deeds that emulate broken, as opposed to merely high-level spells.

[Eldonauran]

The same spell progression that the bard, with a 5th and 6th level spell list. Access to spell from the Good, Law, War, Strength, Protection and Healing domain. And spell casting keyed to Charisma.
I'm all for this.


Also, a far better progression of smite evil. More bonus to damage, to hit, and much more use per day. Maybe at-will at level 20. And with additional effect, like making the weapon good-aligned for overcoming damage reduction.
I'd rather give the Paladin an ability that treats any weapon he wields as an Axiomatic and/or Holy weapon. Limit it to number of rounds per day, fueled a seperate pool of energy that could also be used to smite evil and lay on hands. Maybe make it a permanent thing as a capstone.


And maybe a fighter bonus feat or two. And 4 skill points per level, with a better list. Paladin tend to travel a lot for seeking evil to destroy, there is the archetype of the wandering knight after all, it's not reflected in their skill list.
Allow the Paladin to qualify as a fighter for the purpose of Combat Feats, at his Paladin level -3. Starting at level 4.


And letting him get better mounts with levels, like the Druid and his companion, without wasting feat.
Yes, but in a limited fashion.


Another possibility, is not to improve the spell casting, but to gestalt it with Marshal, get the auras. And / Or maybe, retool it completely and get a divine version of the Warlock's invocation, instead of spell casting.
Could go either way. I'm more a fan of the increased spellcasting.

[cerin616]

Im all for boosting him up top t3 if possible. I think the best way to go about that is either give him bard level spell progression, or make him a crusader.

[CRtwenty]

Increase the Paladins skill points to 4+ Int per level. Double the amount of spells per day he can cast, and give him access to Maneuvers as a Crusader equal to his level.

Paladin is suddenly a very useful class.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd rather give the Paladin an ability that treats any weapon he wields as an Axiomatic and/or Holy weapon. Limit it to number of rounds per day, fueled a seperate pool of energy that could also be used to smite evil and lay on hands. Maybe make it a permanent thing as a capstone.
It's a decent option, but "+2d6 damage verses some enemies some of the time" really isn't that great. A Soulknife-- another generally weak class-- can get a walk around all day with a +2 enhancement like Holy from level 10.

Smite bonus damage is pathetic. It's mathematically worse offensively than a barbarian's rage-- and rage can be used against any target, and gives you defensive boosts.

[Petrocorus]

I forgot, give him a good will save. He's a spellcaster, he's a champion of Good, he's driven by he goal and he's supposed to a paragon of (one kind of) morality. He deserve a good Will save.

I can't help but to remember when the Paladin was an elite class in 1st Ed, for players who rolled huge scores on abilities, and was dislike by some players for being too powerful compared to the Fighter, the Ranger, the Monk and maybe even the Druid.

[JaronK]

So, a bunch of possibilities (including some ideas from this thread, sorry for the repeats):

1) Paladins get all the domain spells of their gods added to their spell list, which they can cast spontaneously like Clerics can with cure spells. Their caster level equals their Paladin level.

2) Paladins may use maneuvers like a Crusader, but only from Devoted Spirit and White Raven schools. Stone Dragon doesn't really make sense for a mounted class.

3) Paladins have 4+Int skills. Sense Motive is on their skill list.

4) Paladins cast off Charisma, and get to add their Charisma mod as a bonus to all Wisdom based skills.

5) Paladins get a good will save.

6) A Paladin's Special Mount may be summoned to them any number of times per day. If it is dismissed and not summoned for one hour, the mount will return fully healed of all damage and status problems.

7) A Paladin's Lay on Hands is 1/encounter instead of 1/day. Their Remove Disease ability is at will.

8) Smite Evil is now an automatic ability, which triggers every time a Paladin attacks an evil aligned target. They just get that bonus damage every time.

There, that should make them very solid and still thematic.

JaronK

[Drachasor]

You could have the mount have a special ability which allows Stone Dragon maneuvers to work for the mounted Paladin.

[cerin616]

with divine grace, I dont think paladins really need any change to saves.

[Eldonauran]

It's a decent option, but "+2d6 damage verses some enemies some of the time" really isn't that great. A Soulknife-- another generally weak class-- can get a walk around all day with a +2 enhancement like Holy from level 10.
Yeah, but the soulblade can't put that enhancement on an already enhanced weapon. Plus, if the Paladin had a 'pool' of energy that powered his smite evil, turn undead, lay on hands and this ability, he gains versatility to use the abilities as needed.

Versatility is the key thing for reaching the higher tiers. Power is also important, hence using the ability to buff a +1 flaming longsword into a +1 flaming Holy Axiomatic longsword that will chew through that demon the enemy spellcaster just summoned.[/QUOTE]

[CRtwenty]

So, a bunch of possibilities (including some ideas from this thread, sorry for the repeats):

1) Paladins get all the domain spells of their gods added to their spell list, which they can cast spontaneously like Clerics can with cure spells. Their caster level equals their Paladin level.

2) Paladins may use maneuvers like a Crusader, but only from Devoted Spirit and White Raven schools. Stone Dragon doesn't really make sense for a mounted class.

3) Paladins have 4+Int skills. Sense Motive is on their skill list.

4) Paladins cast off Charisma, and get to add their Charisma mod as a bonus to all Wisdom based skills.

5) Paladins get a good will save.

6) A Paladin's Special Mount may be summoned to them any number of times per day. If it is dismissed and not summoned for one hour, the mount will return fully healed of all damage and status problems.

7) A Paladin's Lay on Hands is 1/encounter instead of 1/day. Their Remove Disease ability is at will.

8) Smite Evil is now an automatic ability, which triggers every time a Paladin attacks an evil aligned target. They just get that bonus damage every time.

There, that should make them very solid and still thematic.

JaronK

Those are some very good ideas. I like it.

[Simba]

I really like this remake, the Knight-Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187700). Tier 3, I guess.

[Hytheter]

I'd be fine with Paladin as is if he only had some worthwhile class features after Level 5. He has 8 dead levels after that, and 4 that are just remove disease.

A higher amount of spells would be nice though, and maybe some extra smiting - maybe add his Cha Modifier to the amount per day. It is kind of his signature move, after all.
More skills would make sense too.